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Curmudgeon
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:07 pm

John Leahy gets help in the Boeing bashing department! This IHT article examines the 747's recent history and includes a helpful assessment by the Airbus North America chairman, who likens the 747-8i to the Ford Edsel*. I think he has a cook book coming out: "101 recipes for sour grapes".

*for the kiddies: The Ford Edsel was an expensive full-sized car made in the late 50's. it was a thing of ugly, and a dud in the market place.

Here's the link:http://iht.com/articles/2006/12/06/business/boeing.php?page=1
Jets are for kids
 
leelaw
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:10 pm

One wonders which OEM really has a VLA "Edsel" on their hands?

BTW, here's an active link to the IHT article:

http://iht.com/articles/2006/12/06/business/boeing.php?page=1

[Edited 2006-12-07 09:15:20]

[Edited 2006-12-07 09:17:51]
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
grantcv
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:49 pm

It sure is an ironic statement - the B747 has been a terrifically successful model over almost 40 years - and even now is outselling the A380 hands down this year. The A380 is way more at risk of being an "Edsel" in the market.

Airbus as a company needs to get better control over the words that come out of their senior employees mouths. These stupid comments do not make Airbus look like a professional organization with a clear consistent message to the market. Randy Baseler's blog, while biased to the Boeing angle, always comes across as a well considered piece of corporate communication material.
 
sparkingwave
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:18 pm

Actually, the Airbus comments are always great for Boeing fans, cause it makes Airbus look pretty bad when they don't perform as promised. They've had to eat crow several times now.

What's too bad is that the arrogance masks great aircraft that this company makes.

SparkingWave ~~~
Flights to the moon and all major space stations. At Pan Am, the sky is no longer the limit!
 
Curmudgeon
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:59 pm

Quoting SparkingWave (Reply 3):
What's too bad is that the arrogance masks great aircraft that this company makes

And that's it in a nutshell. We are all aware of airbus' recent woes, but most of us are also aware that they have a fine collection of engineers building some fine aircraft. Too bad some senior management feel it appropriate to engage in cynical rhetoric. Actually, from what I have seen, everything except the engineering and production is crap. Their marketing, PR, enterprise management and corporate governance is poor, to say the least.

Even the "XWB" for an aircraft that is narrower than its competition is dishonest, and makes people question what other b.s. they are trying to pull. (And this is not me talking...this is one of the fleet planners for a major carrier who shared that observation with me last week)

Regards,

Cur.
Jets are for kids
 
WINGS
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:25 pm

Talk about about a bad looser. This man does not know how to loose gracefully. I liked the following comment.

"But it is irritating. Boeing is getting orders only because of our inability to meet demand. Had we not stumbled with the A380, there would not be orders like the Lufthansa order for the 747-800."

Well Mr McArtor, you have no one else to blame but your selves. You have made your bed and now you have to sleep in it.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
CHRISBA777ER
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:26 pm

....Then LH go out and buy 20. Not your finest hour Mr Leahy.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
Vref5
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:44 pm

For the benefit of readers whom may not be familiar with the Ford Edsel automobile and why Mr. Leahy invoked its spirit, a brief explanation:

It was a new automobile produced by Ford Motor Company and was named after founder Henry Ford's son, Edsel Ford, in the late 1950s. It failed to sell well and was cancelled after slightly over a year -- though production continued for another year or two after the official cancellation.

In the U.S., the Edsel is a symbol of a miserable failure of a much-vaunted major commercial product... particularly if much-hyped. It was particularly galling since Ford had sunk USD $400 million into the product. A significant sum by today's standards but even more so a half century ago.

Edsel had various problems that could have had been overcome but wasn't accounted for or corrected. Not well marketed; too big (and costly) of a car coming at the wrong time -- in middle of a recession that had just started; marketers didn't clearly explain to the general public what market segment the car was targeted at; overpriced relative to even its own internal competitors; amongst other things.

And so it badly bombed (failed). While I find Mr. Leahy's comments amusing, I should note that it seems he is talking about the 748I specifically and not the 747 family as a whole.

On this point, time will tell whether or not his comment has been accurate. Personally, I think it's rather premature to make that statement even if it makes for an interesting headline or media quote. After all, the Edsel at least had the chance to be launched, sold, and introduced into service before it was eventually proclaimed failed.  Smile

I hope the background information helps those whom aren't familiar with the Edsel understand a bit more about the context in which Mr. Leahy set the 748I comment.

[Edited 2006-12-07 11:46:20]
 
jamman
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:47 pm

He's certainly not very gracious with some of his comments, think he needs to concentrate on getting his house in order before making throw away comments about Boeing or before long he'll start to look silly.
Phoning it in from a place with no phones.
 
WINGS
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:48 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 6):
....Then LH go out and buy 20. Not your finest hour Mr Leahy.

In this case it wasn't Mr Leahy. It was another (bigger) idiot.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
sq212
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:51 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 5):

Further to your comment, I'm curious as to why Mr. McArtor is confident that they will go for more 380 if LH only need 400 passengers capacity plane?
 
Vref5
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:52 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 9):
In this case it wasn't Mr Leahy. It was another (bigger) idiot.

My apologies for my own misattribution; you are indeed correct.

To set the record straight, it was Allan McArtor, chairman of Airbus North America whom made that comment about the Edsel.

Apologies to Mr. Leahy for having had unfairly maligned his name, as well. I'm not much of an Airbus apologist, but I'd at least like to be fair.
 
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PanAm_DC10
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:30 pm

Here is what Mr Leahy said

Mr Leahy has spoken in response to the decision to buy the 748i by LH and on the prospects of the A380F program.

On Lufthansa

''We're disappointed as you can imagine. Lufthansa told us that they see the 747-8 as not a competitor to the A380. They felt the need due to their network to have some planes in the 400-seat category and our plane is in the 500-seat category.''

On the A380F

''If UPS were to decide to delay or whatever, then we will not cancel the freighter, we will stay with the program. But those early slots will be moved to the passenger positions. At this point, we have no intentions of canceling the freighter program. If required, there may be a delay in the program, but nothing more.''

[END - Fair use excerpt]
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...conews&tkr=EAD:FP&sid=afh0rPboPR78

Regards, PanAm_DC10
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
trent900
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:37 pm

Quoting Curmudgeon (Reply 4):
Even the "XWB" for an aircraft that is narrower than its competition

If you taking the 787 as its competitor then the A350 has the widest cross-section at 232inch/5.9m compared with the 787s dimensions at 226inch/5.74m.

Of course it all depends on the internal cabin dimensions but I am having trouble finding these.

D.
 
Lt-AWACS
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:43 pm

I just read the 747 in the IHT (Got my copy late today thanks to fine European weather...) decent article overall and funny comments by Airbus but in the end what do you expect them to say. The blurb on the 787 at the end was interesting also. Seems more switching to Titanium to save weight.

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
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Curmudgeon
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:43 pm

Quoting Trent900 (Reply 13):
If you taking the 787 as its competitor

I'm not. The A350 is for the most part a 777 competitor, and that's where Airbus is aiming its comparisons. I am aware that the 350 is wider than the 787. It's also wider that the 737, but its not a competitor for that aircraft either.
Jets are for kids
 
Bongodog1964
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:47 pm

This man really takes some beating doesn't he.

When you are in it up to your neck isn't it time to stop rubbishing the opposition.

After all he hasn't even got his Ford model comparison correct; the Edsel was a monumental disaster with a brand new model; if Boeing has read the market wrongly it is only by going one update too far on a phenominally successful model. For Ford Europe compare to the Cortina or the Escort which were revamped about four times until they fell far behind the competition.

Have Boeing and LH read the market right ? big question; I'm more sure with Boeing than LH, as LH seem to be intent on operating a fair number of aircraft types, with a potential loss of scale benefits, whereas for Boeing its a relatively low cost upgrade to continue the 747 on.
 
trent900
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:58 pm

Quoting Curmudgeon (Reply 15):
I'm not. The A350 is for the most part a 777 competitor, and that's where Airbus is aiming its comparisons.

Ok, I see where your coming from now. But do you think the majority of people see the 350 competing against the 787?

In my opinion it looks as though its taking the 'high-end' 787 and 'low-end' 777 (a sort of inbetween aircraft).

D.
 
Bongodog1964
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:06 pm

Quoting Trent900 (Reply 17):
In my opinion it looks as though its taking the 'high-end' 787 and 'low-end' 777 (a sort of inbetween aircraft).

The trouble with things that are inbetween is that they sometimes fall down the crack and never reappear.
 
OU812
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:14 pm

I thought Airbus got rid of pompous ass's like Forgeard. Apparently not ! If the 747-8 is on its last legs then why has the 747-8 cleaned Airbus's clock in the freighter dept. & now the pax may even eat into A380 sales as well. I look forward to the next 747-8i order so we can see the new Forgeard eat his words, again!

Why do we not see this Callow behavior from Boeing?

From the article:
Of course, these events have not gone unnoticed at Airbus, which has seen some orders for its A380 migrate to Boeing planes in recent weeks. Allan McArtor, chairman of Airbus North America, called the new 747-8 "a brand new Edsel," a reference to one of the most famous flops in automotive history.

"The 747 is on its last legs," McArtor said during an interview. "It doesn't have any legs to stand one. Boeing is trying to breathe life into a 1960s era design," he said.
 
georgiaame
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:24 pm

As I recall, and I was rather young at the time, the Edsel was one of the most technically advanced cars of the day. And it was butt ugly. Anyone who bought one was laughed at, PUBLICLY!

Wiring issues of the 380 aside, don't we have our aircraft mixed up here? 380: butt ugly, not selling, technically a marvel. 747-8: new life for the beautiful queen of the skies, selling well for an old gal, etc.

Just calling it as I see it, as I always do.
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
F4N
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:27 pm

To all:

There is another, on-going thread in which the relevance of the LH 748i order is being discussed. At the heart of it is whether the LH selection of the 748i is a "blow" to Airbus or not. While the "A" crowd naturally dismisses the premise, it appears as the though Airbus management seems to view things differently, ala Mr. McArtor. Being old enough to remember the Edsel, the enthusiasm with which Ford launched it and the dismal response from the public in return, I don't understand the significance or relevance of the comparison unless it is a convoluted attempt by this gentleman to link the 748 program with failure. The 748 program now has ~ 75 orders or so; not exactly a failure I would say. eyebrow 

I also get the impression that Airbus did not seem to take the possibility of the 748i being selected seriously. At least that is what I get from the rationalizations being offered to the press. Have they not learned anything from 787 about underestimating the competition? scratchchin 

And hurrah for another 346 order. While the machine seems to be much maligned vis-a-vis the 773, it remains nonetheless a most elegant machine
at a time when twins seem to be taking over the world.

regards,

F4N
 
osiris30
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:46 pm

Quoting Curmudgeon (Reply 4):
And that's it in a nutshell. We are all aware of airbus' recent woes, but most of us are also aware that they have a fine collection of engineers building some fine aircraft. Too bad some senior management feel it appropriate to engage in cynical rhetoric. Actually, from what I have seen, everything except the engineering and production is crap. Their marketing, PR, enterprise management and corporate governance is poor, to say the least.

 checkmark  I just want to ditto that. With the possible exception of, I think you're being generous with the statement 'poor'. I think horrible would be more fitting for some of those items.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
AerospaceFan
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:55 pm

Quoting SparkingWave (Reply 3):
Actually, the Airbus comments are always great for Boeing fans, cause it makes Airbus look pretty bad when they don't perform as promised. They've had to eat crow several times now.

That could very well be true, and it's a good point, but despite the fact that I'm a Boeing fan, even more than that, I'm an aerospace fan (who would have guessed?), and any comment that makes Airbus look like a "sore loser" seems to me to make the whole industry look a bit petty by association. So I would prefer that Airbus keep its rival-bashing, if this is what it is, to itself. This would also go for Boeing, if or when Boeing engages in similar criticism.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 5):
[Quoting the Airbus official.][/b]"But it is irritating. Boeing is getting orders only because of our inability to meet demand. Had we not stumbled with the A380, there would not be orders like the Lufthansa order for the 747-800."[/b]

That could be seen as an admission of sorts that if Airbus had done what it had promised (in terms of the A380 delivery schedule), it would be better off than it is. I think that that's a bit of a truism and, besides, it makes it obvious that one or more high-ranking people at Airbus may have promised certain things that Airbus couldn't deliver.

But more fundamentally, the implication that Boeing's 747-8 is a "second choice" seems to me quite unfair. If that were so, why wouldn't LH have canceled its A380 in favor of even more 747-8's?

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 16):
After all he hasn't even got his Ford model comparison correct; the Edsel was a monumental disaster with a brand new model; if Boeing has read the market wrongly it is only by going one update too far on a phenominally successful model. For Ford Europe compare to the Cortina or the Escort which were revamped about four times until they fell far behind the competition.

Indeed, and, frankly, the Edsel comment seems to me actually to invite comparison to the A380, not the 747-8.

[Edited 2006-12-07 14:07:28]
What's fair is fair.
 
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Aaron747
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:59 pm

"It doesn't have any legs to stand one. Boeing is trying to breathe life into a 1960s era design,"

It's obvious this guy has little or no engineering background. Only a completely corporate automaton would make such a baseless statement of idiocy oft-repeated by laymen.

Fuselage structure/dimensions, undercarriage arrangement and wing section are just about the only substantial aspects of the 1960s design remaining. Moronic.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
redflyer
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:18 pm

Quoting SparkingWave (Reply 3):
What's too bad is that the arrogance masks great aircraft that this company makes.

Arrogance is usually a sign of an inferiority complex. And that speaks volumes about Airbus' proclivity to constantly bash Boeing.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 24):
"It doesn't have any legs to stand one. Boeing is trying to breathe life into a 1960s era design,"

It's obvious this guy has little or no engineering background. Only a completely corporate automaton would make such a baseless statement of idiocy oft-repeated by laymen.

Wasn't he the same person that just earlier this year accused Boeing of outright lies regarding their claims that the 8F is a more efficient freighter than the A380F?
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
AerospaceFan
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:24 pm

The 747 is truly a classic design -- not unlike the design of current aircraft carriers, whose shape is very similar to those that existed in the 1960's. And yet the 747-8 is an almost completely different aircraft from the first Jumbo Jets, exactly as Aaron has said. Different materials, engines, performance, and, of course, economics. Even the length is significantly different.

If the 747 is an "obsolete" design, then by those lights, every aircraft with two wings is "obsolete". (Perhaps we should all go back to biplanes, instead?  Wink )
What's fair is fair.
 
Lumberton
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:33 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 24):
It's obvious this guy has little or no engineering background.

On the contrary. Here's his bio.
http://www.airbus.com/en/corporate/people/McArtor_bio.html
As you can see he's a retired USAF general, fighter pilot, and former Associate Professor of Engineering!

Quote:
McArtor is a 1964 graduate of the U.S. Air Force Academy (BSE) and was the Cadet Wing Commander. In addition, he holds a Masters Degree (MSE) from Arizona State University.
McArtor was a highly decorated combat fighter pilot in Vietnam, an Associate Professor of Engineering Mechanics at the Air Force Academy, and capped his Air Force career as a pilot with the U.S. Air Force “Thunderbirds” Aerial Demonstration Team. McArtor continues to hold a Commercial Pilot’s license (instrument rating, multi-engine) and is a member of Tau Beta Pi (engineering honorary society).

I attribute the comments to frustration. Totally out of character for this guy IMO.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
redflyer
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:47 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 27):
from Arizona State University

That explains his problem.  Wink
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
leelaw
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:49 pm

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 20):
Wiring issues of the 380 aside, don't we have our aircraft mixed up here? 380: butt ugly, not selling, technically a marvel. -8

 checkmark  IMO, the fact pattern of the "Edsel" analogy seems much more apropos describing the A380 program than Boeing's efforts to revive the 747. If Mr. McArtor wanted to artfully trash the 748i, he should have analogized to a colossal marketing failure where a manufacturer poured a large amount money continuing to develop an existing product which proved to be beyond revival in the marketplace
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
ebj1248650
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:07 pm

Quoting SparkingWave (Reply 3):
Actually, the Airbus comments are always great for Boeing fans, cause it makes Airbus look pretty bad when they don't perform as promised. They've had to eat crow several times now.

What's too bad is that the arrogance masks great aircraft that this company makes.

SparkingWave ~~~

Very Well Said!
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
osiris30
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:22 pm

The one thing that always makes me laugh with these 30/40 year old comments is:

You're admitting you're being handed your ass by something your dad designed when you were wearing diapers?!?!

To lose out to a 40 year old design (yes *I* know it's not really that old) just proves that either the 40 year old design was brilliant or that your current design is a smouldering pile of sh*t (please note I feel the 747 is certainly the former)

The above may also be applied to the 320 vs. 737 comments along the same lines (for those around here that keep insisting the 737 is ancient).

There's a long list of bigger/faster/better throughout history that have lost to more established designs that simply delivered.

I also guess this just goes to show; the 380 isn't as earth shattering as the koolaid mixers at TLS would have you believe.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
AerospaceFan
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:27 pm

I really enjoyed reading the following article, and I thought I would share it. It's not perfect, but it captures a bit of the ups and downs that the 747, and Boeing, have experienced throughout the last several decades.

In my view, there is no aircraft quite like the 747, based on legacy, capability, and sheer mystique.  

Please see:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/06/business/boeing.php?page=1

[Edited 2006-12-07 15:29:33]
What's fair is fair.
 
Dougloid
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:34 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 5):
Talk about about a bad looser. This man does not know how to loose gracefully. I liked the following comment.

"But it is irritating. Boeing is getting orders only because of our inability to meet demand. Had we not stumbled with the A380, there would not be orders like the Lufthansa order for the 747-800."

Well Mr McArtor, you have no one else to blame but your selves. You have made your bed and now you have to sleep in it.

Regards,
Wings



Quoting Leelaw (Reply 29):
IMO, the fact pattern of the "Edsel" analogy seems much more apropos describing the A380 program than Boeing's efforts to revive the 747. If Mr. McArtor wanted to artfully trash the 748i, he should have analogized to a colossal marketing failure where a manufacturer poured a large amount money continuing to develop an existing product which proved to be beyond revival in the marketplace

Proof positive that it is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.

In Mr. McArtor's defense, however, it must be said that he's doing his bit taking a bullet for the team although he should probably stop straining the Koolaid through his aluminum foil hat before he swigs it.

this is starting to sound like the beginning of one of those infernal, perpetual conspiracy stories....There was a second shooter! The Fish carburetor would let you run your car on water but the oil companies had the guy assassinated! The O'Malleys were in cahoots with the mafia to stick it to Brooklyn and steal the Dodgers! Jimmy Hoffa! Judge Crater!


 butthead   butthead 
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
KFLLCFII
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:40 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 32):

That is indeed the article from which the opening post was based, but thanks for sharing (again)...

 Smile
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
AerospaceFan
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:45 pm

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 35):
That is indeed the article from which the opening post was based, but thanks for sharing (again)...

Thanks for that! I guess I was just too rushed to check.
What's fair is fair.
 
katekebo
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:54 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 12):
Here is what Mr Leahy said

Mr Leahy has spoken in response to the decision to buy the 748i by LH and on the prospects of the A380F program.

On Lufthansa

''We're disappointed as you can imagine. Lufthansa told us that they see the 747-8 as not a competitor to the A380. They felt the need due to their network to have some planes in the 400-seat category and our plane is in the 500-seat category.''

It's a simple market reality - that there is probably more demand for a 400-450 passenger airliner than for a 500+ airliner.

At least Boeing is offering a product line-up that smoothly covers the whole market range from 100 to 450 passengers. Airbus product line-up is discontinuous with a gap at 200-250 (once covered with the now defunct A300/310) and then between 350 and 500 (clearly dominated by B777-300ER and B747).
 
astuteman
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:54 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 5):
"But it is irritating. Boeing is getting orders only because of our inability to meet demand. Had we not stumbled with the A380, there would not be orders like the Lufthansa order for the 747-800."

Well Mr McArtor, you have no one else to blame but your selves. You have made your bed and now you have to sleep in it.

Summed up perfectly in one sentence WINGS  checkmark 
An appalling gaffe IMO.
I've no sympathy for this attitude from an Airbus exec. at all.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 25):
Wasn't he the same person that just earlier this year accused Boeing of outright lies regarding their claims that the 8F is a more efficient freighter than the A380F?

I beleive that was M. Carcaillet.

Regards
 
manni
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:14 am

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 12):
Mr Leahy has spoken in response to the decision to buy the 748i by LH and on the prospects of the A380F program.

On Lufthansa

''We're disappointed as you can imagine. Lufthansa told us that they see the 747-8 as not a competitor to the A380. They felt the need due to their network to have some planes in the 400-seat category and our plane is in the 500-seat category

Spoken as a true diplomat this time. Honest (we're dissapointed) and without slander. Pitty his comments are over shadowed by the 'please-listen-to-what- I-have-to-say' remarks made by Mr. Arthor. IMO Mr. Leahy's remarks, in this particular case and in his position, obsolete any remarks made by some local Airbus executive.
 
birdbrainz
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:16 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 5):
"But it is irritating. Boeing is getting orders only because of our inability to meet demand. Had we not stumbled with the A380, there would not be orders like the Lufthansa order for the 747-800."

It's funny, because one could argue that Airbus is getting orders for the A350-XWB because Boeing can't keep up with demand for the 787. This is not absolutely true because the A350 is a little bigger, but true for the most part.

Who knows, Boeing could screw up on the 787 and be in the same position as Airbus is now with the A380.
A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.
 
B777-700
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:20 am

Quoting Curmudgeon (Thread starter):
helpful assessment by the Airbus North America chairman, who likens the 747-8i to the Ford Edsel*. I think he has a cook book coming out: "101 recipes for sour grapes".

*for the kiddies: The Ford Edsel was an expensive full-sized car made in the late 50's. it was a thing of ugly, and a dud in the market place.

Riiiight.

In a related story, he also said The Beatles don't know how to compose good music, and Michael Jordan sucks at basketball.  Yeah sure
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
TeamAmerica
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:26 am

Quoting OU812 (Reply 19):
Why do we not see this Callow behavior from Boeing?

It appears to me that Boeing has a public relations policy in place, as most major corporations do. In short, they make it clear to employees who is authorized to speak on behalf of the company and who is not. Similarly the company makes their strategies and intentions clear to those who will communicate outside the company, giving guidance as how to conduct yourself in conversation. "Don't be a jackass" might seem obvious to most, but apparently some people need to be told.
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
na
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:26 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 41):
In a related story, he also said The Beatles don't know how to compose good music, and Michael Jordan sucks at basketball.

Thats a good one.

The Edsel was a technologically backward, even badly engineered car, the 748I will be propelled by the most modern engines thinkable, and the most modern interior. What a stupid comparison. Sort of a little boys reaction.
 
NYC777
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:27 am

It's incredivble that this guy has the gall to bash Boeing given all the problems that are going on within his own company. Well if the 747 was such an Edsel, why is it still selling? What about the great sales that the 777, 787 and the 737 are racking up?

What about the sub par performance of the A340 and their sales. What about taking 6 or is it 7 iteration to get the A350 right (and the jury is still out on if it'll attract customer interest). Mr. McArtor has better get his own ship righted before he starts criticizing the competition.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
jacobin777
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:31 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 33):
In Mr. McArtor's defense, however, it must be said that he's doing his bit taking a bullet for the team although he should probably stop straining the Koolaid through his aluminum foil hat before he swigs it.

He either could have kept his gob shut or could have easily said "congratulations Boeing"..that would have shown more class and less crass..

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 38):
I've no sympathy for this attitude from an Airbus exec. at all.

Astuteman, I think this is one of the majour reasons many here on A.net bash Airbus...its neither the planes, the engineers nor "grunt" workers which many here despise, but rather the loud-mouth management who never seem to stop  footinmouth .....they disgrace the working crew.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
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N328KF
Posts: 5962
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:34 am

Quoting Vref5 (Reply 7):
It was a new automobile produced by Ford Motor Company and was named after founder Henry Ford's son, Edsel Ford, in the late 1950s. It failed to sell well and was cancelled after slightly over a year -- though production continued for another year or two after the official cancellation.



Quoting Vref5 (Reply 7):

And so it badly bombed (failed). While I find Mr. Leahy's comments amusing, I should note that it seems he is talking about the 748I specifically and not the 747 family as a whole.



Quoting Leelaw (Reply 29):
IMO, the fact pattern of the "Edsel" analogy seems much more apropos describing the A380 program than Boeing's efforts to revive the 747. If Mr. McArtor wanted to artfully trash the 748i, he should have analogized to a colossal marketing failure where a manufacturer poured a large amount money continuing to develop an existing product which proved to be beyond revival in the marketplace

The problem with the Edsel analogy is that it really applies more to the Sonic Cruiser and 747X than the 747-8 or A380.

The facilities, infrastructure, and technology that were developed for and came out of the Edsel project were re-utilized for the highly successful Ford Falcon and Mustang, as well as other models such as the Frontenac, Fairlane, and Torino.
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
-Donny Miller
 
supa7E7
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Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:35 am

The CEO of a freighter company would disagree. Every single one of them.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
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Asturias
Posts: 1977
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:32 am

Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:36 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 33):
In Mr. McArtor's defense, however, it must be said that he's doing his bit taking a bullet for the team although he should probably stop straining the Koolaid through his aluminum foil hat before he swigs it.

I for one think his comments were in bad taste and unnecessary. I can't imagine why he felt the need to express himself like that. For whom? Airlines aren't going to take his word as gospel and the general public doesn't care. Maybe to create topics on a.net?

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 38):
Summed up perfectly in one sentence WINGS   
An appalling gaffe IMO.
I've no sympathy for this attitude from an Airbus exec. at all.

I agree completely with you and WINGS. Well said.

cheers

Asturias
Tonight we fly
 
chgoflyer
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:16 pm

Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:37 am

Next the Boeing folks will be comparing the A380 to Howard Hugh's Spruce Goose!
Will someone please wake me up in 4 years
 
osiris30
Posts: 2681
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:16 am

Airbus N.A. Chairman: "747-8i is the Ford Edsel"

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:40 am

Quoting Chgoflyer (Reply 50):
Next the Boeing folks will be comparing the A380 to Howard Hugh's Spruce Goose!

At least that would be slightly more accurate ( both were the biggest planes of their time, both were horrendously late and over budget.. both were built using old materials... hrmmm..... LOL {DUCK} )
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)

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