CO Screws Non-union Employees

cle757 · Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:26 pm

When Continental forced pay-cuts on the non-union employees (ramp,ticket agents,cargo etc) they came out with a new pay-scale. The new scale allows junior employees to reach top-out pay BEFORE more senior employees. EIT and other employees have held meetings with managment and they basically said screw you!..we arent going to fix it...Morale has really gone down the toilet!..Its bad enough we took a much bigger cut then union groups, but now they treat us like crap...Merry Christmas!

luv2fly · Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:29 pm

Quoting CLE757 (Thread starter):
When Continental forced pay-cuts on the non-union employees (ramp,ticket agents,cargo etc) they came out with a new pay-scale. The new scale allows junior employees to reach top-out pay BEFORE more senior employees. EIT and other employees have held meetings with managment and they basically said screw you!..we arent going to fix it...Morale has really gone down the toilet!..Its bad enough we took a much bigger cut then union groups, but now they treat us like crap...Merry Christmas!

This is the USA and you can always seek employment else where.

luvfa · Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:34 pm

This is why as an airline employee you need a union period.

nwab787techops · Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:35 pm

Come to NWA, everone here is union. And look how great we are doing vs CO.

cle757 · Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:36 pm

[quote=Luv2fly,reply=1]This is the USA and you can always seek employment else where.[/quot..How would you like it?..somone with over a year less senority making alot more money then you.....and your right this is the USA I can say what I want.

cle757 · Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:37 pm

Quoting Luvfa (Reply 2):
This is why as an airline employee you need a union period

100% correct!

sac · Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:37 pm

So did you sign a card for union representation?

kellmark · Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:38 pm

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 1):
This is the USA and you can always seek employment else where.

I always am amazed when people say that. That is fine if you have 2 or 3 years with the company. But if you have 10 of more years, sometimes 20, and you are no longer under 40 years old, your whole picture of employment opportunities is different as well as what you may have invested with the company. Employment elsewhere is not always an option. Some people are never able to recover. Others have to start at the bottom once again.

IAHFLYR · Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:39 pm

Quoting Nwab787techops (Reply 3):
And look how great we are doing vs CO.

Quoting CLE757 (Reply 4):
How would you like it?..somone with over a year less senority making alot more money then you.....and your right this is the USA I can say what I want.

If in the exact same position I'd sure be pissed and wonder why!! And, I for one am very glad we can almost say what we want...... bitelip

cle757 · Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:41 pm

Quoting Sac (Reply 6):
So did you sign a card for union representation?

I sure did!...and will again next year!

luv2fly · Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:42 pm

Quoting CLE757 (Reply 4):
and your right this is the USA I can say what I want.

I for one never said you could not say what you want! Though as much as you post about how bad CO treats you and the stupid moves they have made like the de-icing, I for one am surprised that you chose to stay with a company you have such obvious distaste for.

777FlyGuy · Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:43 pm

Quoting Kellmark (Reply 7):
I always am amazed when people say that. That is fine if you have 2 or 3 years with the company. But if you have 10 of more years, sometimes 20, and you are no longer under 40 years old, your whole picture of employment opportunities is different as well as what you may have invested with the company. Employment elsewhere is not always an option. Some people are never able to recover. Others have to start at the bottom once again.

I totally agree. Some folks seem to think jobs are just out there for the taking. If you want to flip burgers maybe. It's quite often you can't find a simliar position matching your skill level, so yes, it is like starting over. I'm guessing the people who make such comments would sing a different tune if they were the ones forced to look for another job - especially in the airline industry.

cle757 · Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:48 pm

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 10):
I for one never said you could not say what you want! Though as much as you post about how bad CO treats you and the stupid moves they have made like the de-icing, I for one am surprised that you chose to stay with a company you have such obvious distaste for.

I love my job, I just think the non-union employees got screwed and the company doesnt even care!..How would you like it, if you worked for ten years and a 9 year employee made more money then you?

luv2fly · Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:50 pm

Quoting CLE757 (Reply 12):
I love my job, I just think the non-union employees got screwed and the company doesnt even care!..How would you like it, if you worked for ten years and a 9 year employee made more money then you?

I would leave and seek employment else where.

cle757 · Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:58 pm

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 13):
I would leave and seek employment else where.

No you wouldnt, you would be upset and complain about it.

nwab787techops · Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:58 pm

Quoting CLE757 (Reply 12):
How would you like it, if you worked for ten years and a 9 year employee made more money then you?

I worked for a non-union part of CO for years before coming NWA. I still have two brothers that are still with CO. You can't even get on a plane (nonrev) before someone with years over you,unless you are a MGR. Your story isn't adding up.

cle757 · Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:04 am

Quoting Nwab787techops (Reply 15):
I worked for a non-union part of CO for years before coming NWA. I still have two brothers that are still with CO. You can't even get on a plane (nonrev) before someone with years over you,unless you are a MGR. Your story isn't adding up.

What are you talking about?...non-reving? what does that have to do with pay?

GOTbound · Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:04 am

Even in unionized Sweden where almost everybody is members of the unions you don't get paid by seniority, well at most blue collar job you do, but not white collar...

Why get paid for how many years you have been employed, it's you competence that should set the amount not for how long you have been employed. Loyalty and hard work should nonetheless be ignored, but paying after a scale for how long you have been employed, that's not right. That's mote like CCCP way of doing things.

People 50+ usually asks questions like this "where's the any key?", "something just happened and I didn't do/touch anything", "all my files are gone! what happened", "this would never had happened if we used pen and paper", they print EVERY e-mail the receive, they don't know how to use there office phones, gsm phones etc. Not only does this affect there work, but also everybody elses work sine you have to "baby sit" them.

Just my 0.02$
EK

Tango-Bravo · Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:06 am

Quoting Luvfa (Reply 2):
This is why as an airline employee you need a union period.

But didn't the same employees who are now crying "foul" recently vote against union representation? If so, they are reaping what they have sewn by their folly in trusting the terms of their employment to a management that has shown itself to be self-serving and motivated mainly by greedy self-interest.

luv2fly · Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:06 am

Quoting CLE757 (Reply 14):
No you wouldnt, you would be upset and complain about it.

No I am not going to spend 40 hours a week working for a company I have such strong hatred for! You have a choice, you are choosing to stay and be bitter about the way you feel you are being treated. And you are allowing it by choosing to stay. So again you have these feelings that are so strong that you continue to complain about CO and the stupid things they do here in CLE, any normal person would say hey it is this bad that I post it on a internet message board, maybe I should see the writing on the wall and leave.

halls120 · Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:09 am

Quoting Kellmark (Reply 7):
I always am amazed when people say that. That is fine if you have 2 or 3 years with the company. But if you have 10 of more years, sometimes 20, and you are no longer under 40 years old, your whole picture of employment opportunities is different as well as what you may have invested with the company. Employment elsewhere is not always an option. Some people are never able to recover. Others have to start at the bottom once again.

Here's a news flash for you. Life isn't fair. If you take an entry level job that has no union protection, you might indeed get screwed at some point in the future.

Unless someone pointed a gun at you and forced you to take a non-union job, who exactly is at fault here?

If you want guaranteed employment, you should seek out a job that offers employment protection.

Quoting 777FlyGuy (Reply 11):
Some folks seem to think jobs are just out there for the taking. If you want to flip burgers maybe. It's quite often you can't find a similar position matching your skill level, so yes, it is like starting over. I'm guessing the people who make such comments would sing a different tune if they were the ones forced to look for another job - especially in the airline industry.

Sorry, but it is called free enterprise. It's the chance you take when you opt for a job without employment protection.

You don't have a constitutional right to employment. Yes, our society functions best when people are gainfully employed, but if you want job security, you have two choices - unionize you current job, or find a job that already has that protection.

nwab787techops · Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:14 am

Quoting CLE757 (Reply 16):
What are you talking about?...non-reving? what does that have to do with pay?

OK!

When you non-rev you get on the plane by the year you where hired. The same is true with the pay. It goes by when you where hired.

777FlyGuy · Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:16 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 20):
Sorry, but it is called free enterprise. It's the chance you take when you opt for a job without employment protection.

You don't have a constitutional right to employment. Yes, our society functions best when people are gainfully employed, but if you want job security, you have two choices - unionize you current job, or find a job that already has that protection.

Did I say anything about a constitutional right to employment? Funny, I've had the same non-union job with the same airline for 24 years and I don't see this happening where I work. Is life unfair? Absolutely. Do unions make it fair? Not necessarily. Do unions mean job security? Ask the folks who used to work at Eastern, et. al.

deltagator · Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:16 am

Quoting GOTbound (Reply 17):
Why get paid for how many years you have been employed, it's you competence that should set the amount not for how long you have been employed.

Which is exactly how it should be done.

Quoting GOTbound (Reply 17):
paying after a scale for how long you have been employed, that's not right. That's mote like CCCP way of doing things.

Welcome to the union mindset in the USA. Pay me more and let me do less because I haven't keeled over dead yet. I'm always amused by the folks in unions who have more loyalty to their union than their employer who pays their salary but hen it comes time to strike the union hangs them out to dry with pitiful strike benefits while the union leaders continue to get their full salary and live high on the hog.

Quoting CLE757 (Reply 9):
Quoting Sac (Reply 6):
So did you sign a card for union representation?

I sure did!...and will again next year!

Be careful what you ask for. The grass isn't always greener on the other side.

Quoting Kellmark (Reply 7):
Employment elsewhere is not always an option. Some people are never able to recover. Others have to start at the bottom once again.

No offense but that is the price you pay for having a specialized skill set. Remember...it is not YOUR job. It is the employer's job and they can do with it whatever they want to do at any time they want to do it.

If I was in the same position I would be upset but I have the ability to adapt to new situations and I make sure I have additional skills that can I can use elsewhere and not take a pay cut.

MaverickM11 · Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:17 am

Quoting Luvfa (Reply 2):
This is why as an airline employee you need a union period.

Exactly...so CO can go into bankruptcy too. Brilliant Silly

luvfa · Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:20 am

Quoting Nwab787techops (Reply 3):
Come to NWA, everone here is union. And look how great we are doing vs CO

How would it be without a Union?

nwab787techops · Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:22 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 24):
Exactly...so CO can go into bankruptcy too. Brilliant

NWA,UAL,US all big union airlines all have been in bankruptcy. And DL's one union being it into bankruptcy.

nwab787techops · Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:27 am

Quoting Luvfa (Reply 25):
How would it be without a Union?

no bankruptcy

luvfa · Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:27 am

WN is 85% unionized. Send some blame to management at NWA, UA and US!

lincoln · Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:35 am

Quoting CLE757 (Reply 14):
No you wouldnt, you would be upset and complain about it.

I can't speak for the original poster, but I got fed up with certain politics (union-related) at my former employer and I did seek other employment. And I am infinitely happier for doing it. I can not tell you how much less stress there is in my life...yeah, some security was yielded (I went from a state government agency to a small private company), but in the long run I have no doubts that it was the right decision to make.

Sure it takes effort to find another job, but if it's getting to you this much, then in the long run it may be worth it.

Lincoln

ssides · Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:39 am

Quoting Luvfa (Reply 28):
WN is 85% unionized. Send some blame to management at NWA, UA and US!

Absolutely. But one of the reasons that WN has succeeded even with heavy unionization is that they have convinced the unions that flexible work and pay rules are the way to go. At WN, you get paid based on your abilities, skill and attitude -- not by some rigid seniority scale. This flexibility has allowed WN to prosper, when airlines with other rigid union rules have struggled.

Airlines in today's marketplace can indeed make it with unions, provided they have the flexibility to adapt to rapid changes. Unfortunately, most unions represent the antithesis of this flexibility.

nwab787techops · Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:39 am

You know what. I didn't write to say unions are bad or good. I think the guy who put the first post is not telling us everthing. I think the guy is not happy the union vote didn't pass, and he is trying to make people to think this story is true.

luvfa · Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:42 am

No at WN your pay is based on the negotiated seniority scale. You get hired based on your attitude. You get trained for your abilities and skill!

incitatus · Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:43 am

Quoting Kellmark (Reply 7):
I always am amazed when people say that. That is fine if you have 2 or 3 years with the company. But if you have 10 of more years, sometimes 20, and you are no longer under 40 years old, your whole picture of employment opportunities is different as well as what you may have invested with the company. Employment elsewhere is not always an option. Some people are never able to recover. Others have to start at the bottom once again.

You can always move to Cuba.

I know plenty of people who moved careers and were successful. Those who complain because they (say they) cannot find another job after 40 is really because they DON'T WANT TO LOOK.

If you don't like your job or your company, move on!

Quoting CLE757 (Reply 4):
How would you like it?..somone with over a year less senority making alot more money then you.....

I know boatloads of people in that category.

CALMSP · Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:48 am

yes, CLE757 is just upset about the union not going through. I adn what looks like many others here think he really needs to seek other employment. Besides, we didnt get royally screwed like he is stating.

InTheSky74 · Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:48 am

Stay away from unions. They are not good at all. Look at what happened to TWA and Eastern.

Unions are just BIG BUSINESSES that are starting to find they are less and less needed.

slider · Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:54 am

Your hate-filled diatribe, while dramatic for rallying the pro-union camp, is inaccurate in the sense you are portraying and you know it.

Junior hourly employees do in fact have a higher graduated top-out schedule, because they were (and follow the basic economics here if you can!) on the LOW end of the scale and they too took pay cuts!

If a $9/hr agent took a 5% pay cut, they’re making $8.55 now.
If an $18/hr agent took a 8% pay cut, they’re making $16.56 now.
The company made a conscious decision to not whack those at the lowest part of the scale as hard as topped out agents because the hardship posed by an equal % cut to a lower absolute paid employee is greater. The step increases that kick back in take this into account as well.

Quit spinning this to fit your agenda, CLE757.

wingnut767 · Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:00 am

Quoting Luvfa (Reply 2):
This is why as an airline employee you need a union period.

Quoting InTheSky74 (Reply 35):
Stay away from unions. They are not good at all. Look at what happened to TWA and Eastern.

Unions are just BIG BUSINESSES that are starting to find they are less and less needed.

Unions in there present form are not the Answer. Anyone who thinks that the union is out for them is kidding themselves. The unions are complicit with the Companies and are a business to make themselves money. What do you receive for your dues??? A calendar once a year. Oh thank you. Why is it when the union jams pay cuts down your throat they themselves do not take a pay cut. All they care about is numbers. There is a place for representation but not in the current union form. IAM, TWA, Teamsters are all the same. Why is it they donate your dues to political parties without a vote from the people whose money it really is. I love my job but unfortunately we have to deal with the devil in the unions.

cle757 · Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:01 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 36):
Junior hourly employees do in fact have a higher graduated top-out schedule, because they were (and follow the basic economics here if you can!) on the LOW end of the scale and they too took pay cuts!

If a $9/hr agent took a 5% pay cut, they’re making $8.55 now.
If an $18/hr agent took a 8% pay cut, they’re making $16.56 now.
The company made a conscious decision to not whack those at the lowest part of the scale as hard as topped out agents because the hardship posed by an equal % cut to a lower absolute paid employee is greater. The step increases that kick back in take this into account as well.

Quit spinning this to fit your agenda, CLE757.

I think you need to look at the scale again...you must not be able to read it.

FlyHoss · Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:03 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 10):
...about how bad CO treats you and the stupid moves they have made like the de-icing...

IIRC, it wasn't CO's choice to change the de-icing procedure / location at CLE. It was forced upon all carriers by the city after being forced to implement a fluid recovery system by the E.P.A.

halls120 · Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:05 am

Quoting Ssides (Reply 30):
Airlines in today's marketplace can indeed make it with unions, provided they have the flexibility to adapt to rapid changes. Unfortunately, most unions represent the antithesis of this flexibility.

The key point here is that the unions representing WN have evidently figured out that in order for WN to make money, union work rules have to be realistic.

As Ssides notes, most unions don't look at their role this way. They look at things with a "us vs. them" mentality, which is counterproductive and in the long run makes a business uncompetitive. Which is why traditional union membership keeps dwindling.

luvfa · Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:05 am

Quoting InTheSky74 (Reply 35):
Stay away from unions. They are not good at all. Look at what happened to TWA and Eastern.

Again, that was the result of both parties, managemt and union. Unions would not be necessary if management signed a contract with each employee. However that doesn't happen. Absent of a Union each worker is an at-will employee. I've been at companies where we were on the verge of Union representation. Management gives us the same song and dance about how "unions are bad and only want your money" my reply has always been "well make our work rules into a contract ". Management always rebuffs this ideas. Yes unions are not perfect and ther are good ones and bad ones. However they offer some bargaining power. I don't subscribe to this theory "if you don't like it leave". Thats the last step. The first step is do something about your situation to make your current job better!

cle757 · Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:06 am

[quote=FlyHoss,reply=39]IIRC, it wasn't CO's choice to change the de-icing procedure / location at CLE. It was forced upon all carriers by the city after being forced to implement a fluid recovery system by the E.P.A.[/quotetThe location was changed but, the city wanted CO to de-ice planes but some people in Hub Ops didnt want it.

slider · Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:06 am

Quoting CLE757 (Reply 38):

I think you need to look at the scale again...you must not be able to read it.

Put your money where your mouth is then and substantiate your position….this is your thread, you back it up. I’d love to see you explain the anniversary date step increase schedule.

CALMSP · Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:09 am

you dont even have to be a good employee who produces to get pay raises............CLE757..........you should be thankful for that!!

AADC10 · Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:15 am

That is the nature of blue collar/sales work. Even if you have a bachelor's degree, that is what a high school degree used to be. If you do not have a graduate degree, you have nothing and will lose ground unless you inherited wealth.

Most airline employees are still much better compensated than workers with similar education and levels of experience. That is why "productivity" is on the rise. It is not that computers or something helped us get more work done, it is that workers were laid off or their salaries were reduced.

deltagator · Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:19 am

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 45):
Even if you have a bachelor's degree, that is what a high school degree used to be. If you do not have a graduate degree, you have nothing and will lose ground unless you inherited wealth.

A very broad generalization that is wrong. Sounds like sour grapes coming from someone who majored in something like Philosophy or Underwater Basket Weaving that just doesn't have a lot of demand in the workplace.

I personally only have a Bachelor's degree and I am making more than anyone in my family who has multiple Master's degrees. Not the norm...perhaps, but still valid in proving your point wrong.

And you inheriting wealth comment...nothing but class warfare crap and jealousy.

N766UA · Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:50 am

Unions stink. I'm either getting paid less and being treated like crap by managment because I'm not represented... or I'm forking over a chunk of my paycheck every week and getting treated like crap by the union because I am. Lose/Lose. I've always hated the idea that one must join a union to work somewhere, too, like Southwest. What the hell is the point of a mandatory union?

MaverickM11 · Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:52 am

Quoting Luvfa (Reply 28):
WN is 85% unionized. Send some blame to management at NWA, UA and US!

WN never really had to deal with pre-deregulation.

ikramerica · Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:01 am

Quoting Sac (Reply 6):
So did you sign a card for union representation?

Come now, this is CLE757. He signs union cards daily for practice. That's what he wants, and he's made no bones about that over the years. This is just another post explaining why life sucks.

Some of us may not agree with him, but he is respectfully consistent with his views about his job and how unfair he is treated.

Quoting Kellmark (Reply 7):
Employment elsewhere is not always an option. Some people are never able to recover. Others have to start at the bottom once again.

This is also a direct result of unionism. It is designed to make it hard to leave your job so you are completely dependent on the union and scared about the consequences of not being union.

You should be able to take your 15 years of experience, if it is as valuable as the union tells you it is, and go to another job and be hired as a 15 year veteran. In many other professions, you have to do just that to get the right pay or a promotion.

But frankly, there's no reason most airline professionals deserve more money for working 15 years than they do for working 5 (some work groups excluded). That 10 years experience does NOT add value to the company. The reward, instead, should be more desirable shifts/routes/days off...

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