news article here about an overweight passenger suing Air France after being told he was too fat and forced to buy a second seat to accommodate him on a flight.

[Edited 2006-12-20 16:08:16]

The result of this case will be very interesting.

Air France has a policy of F A T people needing 2 seats.....

Quoting Jetfuel (Reply 3): Air France has a policy of F A T people needing 2 seats.....

so do a lot of airlines - I recall this issue coming up before with WN a couple of times amongst others

This "me-me-me" ideology is pathetic. I don't want to be squashed by some bloke's blubber. What if the plane crashes? Poor little ol'e me would be stuck! It's in the contract of carriage. It's the rules. Get over it.

Just my two cents...

He should feel ashamed at himself. I know that I am overweight and will therefore buy either a Business or First class ticket until I have lost the excess weight in order to fit comfortably into an Economy class seat. IMO it is selfish to impose yourself unto other people, just because you have a weight problem.


Rgds

SA7700

AF should counter sue for him being an idiot... and for bad publicity i guess.

What the hell does he expect. Ok its was bloody out of order to embarass the guy infront of other passengers but 160kilos is absolutely gigantic. Thats well over 360 pounds or 27 stones. American Pro Footballers are that weight and I doubt he was 6ft 7 inches of solid muscle like those guys. If I was that fat I would expect to pay for a bigger seat or I would fly in business class.

I experienced a similar thing on a AA flight from LIM- MIA last summer when a blimp came and sat in the spare seat in my row. He could not actually fit into individual seat and consequently took up two of the three that were spare in the row. God knows how he fitted into the original seat, the person sat next to him in the twin seat config must have felt like they had one the lottery for escaping from that level of discomfort.

Seriously overweight people are more of a burden to national health services and such than smokers are. Its about they faced up to reality that their lack of personal eating control is not something that can be used to cheat the system. If I was sat next to a person who was encroaching on my personal seat space I would go nuts. Thats why I fly club. Makes things so much easier! lol

He should be awarded damages for the embarassment but should not be granted the refund for the extra seat. They need to make an example for god sake. Maybe it would encourage fat people who want to travel in Economy to lose some bloody weight!

This is not an attack against fat people. I just dont like anyone taking liberties!

I agree with this policy. It is not a slight whatsoever on "people of size" The fact he had travelled before without incident, likely meant the aircraft was not full and they could accomodate him. As a paying customer myself, and someone this size was issued a single seat next to me, well, lets just say the flight would be delayed while I deplaned, my baggage unloaded, and a full refund was produced.

Once on AA from DFW to YYC (MD80), I was in my usual window seat. Close to pushback the other 2 seats were empty, I thought its nice to have all this space. Then an enormus man, boarded late, could barely squeeze down the aisle. To my horror, he wiggled into the space beside me, lifted the armrest and asked for a seatbelt extension. He took up the entire aisle and center seat. On the bright side, he was a very pleasant individual to talk to, but several things came to mind. a) I didn't have a hope in hell of using the washroom, b) I didn't have a hope in hell of getting out in an emergency.

Airlines are (in my opinion) well within their rights to charge out for this extra seat.

Quoting YYCowboy (Reply 10): Then an enormus man, boarded late, could barely squeeze down the aisle. To my horror, he wiggled into the space beside me, lifted the armrest and asked for a seatbelt extension.

Good heavens! I don't need a seatbelt extension, nor do I need to lift up the armrest in between. However, I hate it when I have to sit shoulder to shoulder for hours and it should not be my “next door neighbor’s” problem when I need more space.


Rgds

SA7700

Quoting Paul (Reply 9): Thats well over 360 pounds or 27 stones. American Pro Footballers are that weight and I doubt he was 6ft 7 inches of solid muscle like those guys.

The American Football Players (we call it football, but we don't call them footballers...   ) who are that big do have a huge mass of solid muscle, but it is covered in a thick layer of flab on top of that, probably carrying the weight of a large woman in fat alone...  

I've always felt that as a tall person, i have a true right to sue the airlines for more legroom, as as far as I know, it's not my fault that I'm tall...

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14): I've always felt that as a tall person, i have a true right to sue the airlines for more legroom, as as far as I know, it's not my fault that I'm tall...

I am sure that it is not your fault that you are tall , but I don't think it is the airlines fault either , surely if you are going to sue anybody it should be your parents

Well if they need 2 seats they should pay for 2 seats.

Why make it complicated?

I really hope that all airlines have this policy. I don't want to sit next to such a fat person with only one seat! When he is extremely fat, then it is a fact and there is nothing to claim.

Generally, airline ask passenger who are overweight/obese to buy 2 seats but some will offer 50% discount on the 2nd seat.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14): I've always felt that as a tall person, i have a true right to sue the airlines for more legroom, as as far as I know, it's not my fault that I'm tall...

Hehe, being 6'4 I've always thought about this too. I should sue Embraer and Canadair since I have duck when walking down the aisle to my seat. Not only do I feel "humiliated" as people laugh at me, it also hurts my neck. They obviously didn't consider the tall people when designing their aircraft.  

In all seriousness, while it's not "my" fault for being tall, it's not the airline's either. So I plan for this by either A) requesting an exit row seat or B) on airlines with cheap upgrades such as AirTran, upgrade to Biz Class. Haven't flown UA yet, though I would probably go with E+ for the extra legroom.
Whenever I'm in a normal 31" x 17" seat (or whatever the dimensions are) I also so my best to let the person in front of me recline their seat if they wish, though usually it isn't a problem. I've only felt really smashed in twice(besides when on a CRJ-100/200). One was on a Delta 767-400 from HNL to ATL. The guy in front of me was a big guy and when he reclined, his weight pushed the seat slightly past the normal recline and right into my knees. The other was on a Delta MD-88, DAB-ATL. I was right behind the wing (where according to seatguru, the legroom is slightly less than normal). Fortunately, this one was a short flight.

Quoting YYCowboy (Reply 10): Airlines are (in my opinion) well within their rights to charge out for this extra seat.

  
I think they should be required to charge for two seats. Not only for the sake of the "lucky" customer who would end up with half a seat, but also for safety purposes. If you weight 300 lbs, you weight nearly twice what the airline alots for you in fuel calculations. It may be insiginificant for one person, but it can quickly start to add up with only a few of these cases on each flight.

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 15): I am sure that it is not your fault that you are tall , but I don't think it is the airlines fault either , surely if you are going to sue anybody it should be your parents

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 20): B) on airlines with cheap upgrades such as AirTran, upgrade to Biz Class.

That's the point. In the USA it is against the law to discriminate against people and you are forbidden from charging them extra, and REASONABLE accommodations must be made. Fitting someone who is 360 pounds is not reasonable. Fitting people over 6' is reasonable. The difference being that people over 6' are far more common, and people over 6' are not tall by "choice or deed."

The real case can be made that our safety is being sacrificed, as there is usually no head protection for tall people in the seats, and things like brace position and easy exit during evacuation are compromised as well.

But I'm just making hay, because it always seems the shortest and the fattest people in society make the most stink about how they are mistreated while us tall guys are peeing on the wall because all the urinals are down around our ankles...  

At what point are people really too fat to sit in a 17" seat? I am 6' and fat enough to meet the medical definition of obese but I can still easily fit in a 17" X 31" seat. Well, not comfortably, but not many fit in a seat that size comfortably and at least there is some space between my hips and the armrest. If you really overflow the seat, that is probably getting into morbidly obese territory.

There are probably not really that many people who are that large and fly regularly in economy. Perhaps they should have a sizing plate at security like they used to for carry ons. If you cannot squeeze through the plate, then you are too big to fit in one seat.

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 16): Well if they need 2 seats they should pay for 2 seats.

I agree, just like if you're a big person that will still be hungry if you only eat one Big Mac, then get two. But McDonald's isn't going to give the second one for free just because the first one wasn't enough for you.

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 22): At what point are people really too fat to sit in a 17" seat? I am 6' and fat enough to meet the medical definition of obese but I can still easily fit in a 17" X 31" seat.

I really hate to say it because I'm sure you catch enough hell as it is, but how comfortable is your neighbor when you sit? Assuming you are actually obese. (I think the medical definition would call me "obese" even though I wear 33" waist pants. Airliner seats are quite comfortable for me.)

And I guess if you pay for the 2nd    seat you would get 2 meals too   

Let me say if I got stuck beside this 160kg blob I would be suing the airline    especially on a flight like SYD-JFK

Put the arm rests down. If he can't get in within ten seconds charge him for two seats and a two hundred Euro administrative fee for the special attention.

If anyone ever sits beside me with those dimensions I would sue both the passenger and the airline for incringement on my space.

I do not mean to be bad, but are not these "fat" people pose a security threat? What if the plane needs to be evacuated and they have to use the small overwing exit?
This is not a joke!

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 16): Well if they need 2 seats they should pay for 2 seats. Why make it complicated?

This is nothing new, has been in existence since I worked for Pan Am back in the 60'S, so I don't see what the big fuss is all about. I guess people just want their 3 mins of fame. It is just like when you are carrying a patient back from an operation on a flight they need 6 First class seats, so that there can be a curtain around them and their hospital bed, as well as a Doctor and nurse on board. The problem is when people get to that size, they create problems for others on the flight, they should be allocated the 2 aisle seats so that they can get in and out with without a major problem

Quoting BillReid (Reply 25): If anyone ever sits beside me with those dimensions I would sue both the passenger and the airline for incringement on my space.

That's fair, as long as Webster can sue you for rapifying the English language.  

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 7): in order to fit comfortably into an Economy class seat.

I didn't think THAT was possible, even if you weigh 85 lbs.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 25): If anyone ever sits beside me with those dimensions I would sue both the passenger and the airline for incringement on my space.

Well, if the passenger in question wasn't required by the airline to purchase two seats, then it's hardly his or her fault, right? Passengers in Y do not have alot of control over their seat assignments. As for the airline, sue as much as you want! 

Cheers
Mats

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 13): Please, in the future, keep this kind of opinion for yourself or for an appropriate forum.

Wouldn't it be nice if we all keep this quote in mind when talking about President Bush Or really ANY Govt. official? I agree the comment about President Chirac was out of place but no one seems to mind when people take aim at the American President.

Back on topic...it's really simple..if you need 2 seats to travel safety and in such a way as not to encroach on the person next to you, who has presumably paid for his space too, then buy two seats!! End of story. People "should" know this and at least have some sort of idea that this issue might come up if they weigh 160kg!!!!

Quoting Paul (Reply 9): 160kilos is absolutely gigantic.

Quoting Paul (Reply 9): last summer when a blimp came and sat

Quoting Paul (Reply 9): Seriously overweight people are more of a burden to national health services and such than smokers are.

Quoting Paul (Reply 9): They need to make an example for god sake

Quoting Paul (Reply 9): This is not an attack against fat people.

I'd hate to be around you if you ever decided to attack  

He should be greatful to AF for only charing 50% of the extra seat he consumed.

I remember seeing a photo from the 1920/1930's or so where a lady was standing on scales as part of checking in for her flight (Did this really happen??)

If societies keep getting bigger and bigger and feul and costs higher and higher I would'nt be too suprised to see it happening from LAX to CDG with pax paying for excessive weight just as they do excess baggage.

Quoting SkyTaxi (Reply 33):

I'm sorry, but is that one ass or three?

Speak of the chunky. There is a website called Fat Traveler written by an overweight woman. She gives tips and hints. Kinda interesting read.

Quoting SkyTaxi (Reply 33): http://news.yahoo.com/photo/061219/ids_photos_ts/r3739968269.jpg

Like Jimbo in "The Simpsons" put it: I heard that her ass has its own Congressman.  

how about this:

as they check your bags, everyone has to stand on the scale too. if you're over 280, you have to buy another seat.

let's make it a rule. public embarrassment as a tool to weight loss. i'm all for it.

160 kg., You'd think they wouldn't even need to break out the tape measure. It seems like that is basically an automatic two seat weight. Maybe it's standard precedure though.

The airlines are right wit this one. If you're grossly overweight and you spill into the next seat so to speak, then you should pay for that seat.

It is not fair that another fare paying pax should feel squashed/restriced/uncomfortable as a result of another pax.

I worked for a British charter airline and our policy was that the overweight pax should have a window seat and the one next to it.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 13): This not discrimination against fat people : if you are fat enough to take two seats in the plane, then you have to pay for it !

Agree 100%

Quoting YYCowboy (Reply 10): I didn't have a hope in hell of getting out in an emergency.

Let me tell you in an emergency my footprints would be all over his face!!

Quoting YYCowboy (Reply 10): As a paying customer myself, and someone this size was issued a single seat next to me, well, lets just say the flight would be delayed while I deplaned, my baggage unloaded, and a full refund was produced.

Your not the only one.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 20): I think they should be required to charge for two seats

This should be mandatory.

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 37): as they check your bags, everyone has to stand on the scale too. if you're over 280, you have to buy another seat.

Well I do know some people that are between 250 and 270 lbs but they are 100% pure solid muscle and in no way would need 2 seats. But I guess that's the exception.

I understand that some people have un-controlable hormone problems or adverse stress that might cause obesity. I do think that it has it is getting out of hand how so many people are very overweight and expect other people to be inconveinenced by it, such as sitting beside them on a plane. It always piss me off when an overweight person gets a handicap sticker so they can park closer to the door etc, or think that it is in-appropriate for them to be asked to buy a extra seat on a plane due to their size ,rather than trying to do something about their weight.   

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 7): I know that I am overweight and will therefore buy either a Business or First class ticket until I have lost the excess weight in order to fit comfortably into an Economy class seat. IMO it is selfish to impose yourself unto other people, just because you have a weight problem.

Not all of us can afford business or first.

Quoting Paul (Reply 9): when a blimp came

Grow up and leave the childish, insulting language out please. It's a difficult enough situation for overweight people without you using insulting language.

Quoting Paul (Reply 9): This is not an attack against fat people

Hmmm -- you could have fooled me. If this entire forum isn't an attack against fat people than I don't know what is. I've read "blob", "blubber", "chunky" and someone said that both the airline and the "fat" passenger should be sued for making them feel uncomfortable.

Quoting YYCowboy (Reply 10): It is not a slight whatsoever on "people of size"

If you think that after reading the comments on this thread, than you're delusional.

Quoting Jetfuel (Reply 24): Let me say if I got stuck beside this 160kg blob I would be suing the airline

Nice language. Grow up.

The moderator should delete this entire thread because it's been discussed ad-nauseum and the only thing that comes out of it is a constant flow of insulting comments and langage against overweight people.

And I'm sure you are all perfect. How many of you smoke? Did you quit? Was it difficult to quit? Did you crave it for years after quitting? We all make choices and we all have to deal with those choices.

Believe it or not, I too am in favor of someone having to pay for 2 seats if they don't fit into one. However, I am NOT in favor of the insulting comments written on this site by many of the posters. They are insults and they are personal and you all need to grow up. Overweight people are well aware of what people think of them without the ignorant comments thrown in.

So -- that said -- all of you perfect people with perfect families and perfect friends with absolutely no vices or addictions or imperfections - feel free to continue the fat bashing.

He needs two seats but only wants to pay for one seat. I wonder if he expects two Big Mac's for the price of one when he goes to McDonalds because one isn't enough?

Quoting Mkirch72 (Reply 49):

   I couldn't have said it better myself. A great number of posters in this thread need to grow up!!!

Quoting Mkirch72 (Reply 49): How many of you smoke?

I did

Quoting Mkirch72 (Reply 49): Did you quit?

Yes

Quoting Mkirch72 (Reply 49): Was it difficult to quit

Yes

Quoting Mkirch72 (Reply 49): ? Did you crave it for years after quitting?

For a while but not for years

Probably the hardest thing I ever did was quit smoking. I feel better, breathe better and remarkably can't stand the smell of smoke from others any more.
Same could probably be said about losing weight if your that obese. It's a choice in most people to overeat. Lose the weight and they would feel better and wouldn't have to worry about paying for 2 seats.

Quoting Mkirch72 (Reply 49): We all make choices and we all have to deal with those choices.

That's right. And some people chose to be fat. Plain and simple.

Quoting Mkirch72 (Reply 49): feel free to continue the fat bashing.

OK

Quoting Mkirch72 (Reply 49): , I am NOT in favor of the insulting comments written on this site by many of the posters

No one made you read them.

Quoting Charger (Reply 47): Quoting Mkirch72 (Reply 49): feel free to continue the fat bashing. OK

Given the age you list in your profile, one would imagine that you'd have outgrown such immaturity by now.  

OK, MKirch72: Reading between the lines, you are a "person of size" and take offense to many of these posts. Perhaps the wording has been blunt, but good lord, obesity is a huge health issue. The passanger as refrenced in my post 10, seated beside me couldn't even place down his tray, the seat in front, upon reclining, hit his gut. To me, this was a safety issue. Obese people do not have a right to enter a confined space, blocking possible exits, and at the same time be hyper sensitive about others opinions. Why don't you light up a smoke too, I'd enjoy that just as much. Dude, "Jenny Craig."

“Let's be objective. This man is fat,” lawyer Fernand Gamault told the court in Bobigny. “He barely fits on the courtroom chair. How could he sit in an aeroplane?”

I love the French.   

Quoting SkyTaxi (Reply 28): http://news.yahoo.com/photo/061219/ids_photos_ts/r3739968269.jpg

Oh hell no. I don't think I'd sit back and let this person just sit next to me on a plane. One of us is moving.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 45): Given the age you list in your profile, one would imagine that you'd have outgrown such immaturity by now

Freedom of speech my dear friend. This is a board for opinions. Yours and mine. We don't have to agree. And by the way get a sense of humour.

Quoting Mkirch72 (Reply 40): The moderator should delete this entire thread because it's been discussed ad-nauseum

Why because you don't like it?

Quoting Mkirch72 (Reply 40): And I'm sure you are all perfect.

No just truthful.

Quoting Mkirch72 (Reply 40): I am NOT in favor of the insulting comments written on this site by many of the posters.

Then by all means please don't read them.

Quoting Mkirch72 (Reply 40): you all need to grow up

Childish?? Everyone who posted here is wrong except you?

Quoting Mkirch72 (Reply 40): all of you perfect people with perfect families and perfect friends with absolutely no vices or addictions or imperfections - feel free to continue the fat bashing.

Sound a little jealous there. As I stated earlier, and I am sorry if it offends anyone, but being fat is a choice for most people. Just like smoking was a choice I made (and by the way heard plenty of crap and comments about it.) I made the choice to quit smoking, just like people can make the choice to loose weight.

What happened to the guy is something quite common:
RE: Family Thrown Off WN - Too Fat! (by Seiple Jul 13 2002 in Civil Aviation)?searchid=875852&s=armrest+fat#ID875852
RE: Fat People And The Law (by PROSA Nov 7 2005 in Civil Aviation)?searchid=2424910&s=armrest+fat#ID2424910

... and many more threads on this if you do a search.

My opinion is that airlines absolutely have to block 2 seats for overweight persons. It is up to the airlines whether or how much they charge for the second seat. They should look for a fair fare for the second seat, like half price or child's fare - which apparently the majority of airlines does (if not all).

Quoting SkyTaxi (Reply 28): http://news.yahoo.com/photo/061219/ids_photos_ts/r3739968269.jpg

Im sorry but I dont even think I could fit between that and the window on a jet. It's just impossible. Anyone would have the right to be angry if put in that situation. It has to be uncomfortable to have someone's fat lying on your lap and I can't imagine why some "larger" people don't realize this!

Quoting Charger (Reply 45): Quoting OA412 (Reply 45): Given the age you list in your profile, one would imagine that you'd have outgrown such immaturity by now Freedom of speech my dear friend. This is a board for opinions. Yours and mine. We don't have to agree. And by the way get a sense of humour.

I doubt that our founding fathers intended the first amendment as a tool to insult others. Besides, I have a sense of humor thank you and can recognize a good joke when I see one. What you have posted is not funny in the least. The remainder of your reply to Mkrich72 proves both that and the fact that, as I already pointed out, you need to grow up.

Quoting Charger (Reply 45): Sound a little jealous there. As I stated earlier, and I am sorry if it offends anyone, but being fat is a choice for most people.

And you know this from personal experience? Care to share with us a medical study that conclusively proves your assumption to be true.

Quoting YYCowboy (Reply 42): Perhaps the wording has been blunt, but good lord, obesity is a huge health issue.

Indeed it is. However, please explain to me how those in this thread who have used words such as "blob" and "blubber" to define overweight people are bringing attention to this fact?

Quote from linked article;


December 20, 2006 11:36pm Article from: Reuters
Send this article: Print Email

AN overweight passenger has sued Air France after being told he was too fat and forced to buy a second seat to accommodate him on a flight.

Jean-Jacques Jauffret, a French scriptwriter, said he had felt humiliated by Air France staff who had measured his waist in public at New Delhi airport in 2005 and decided he was too big for a single seat.

A lawyer representing Air France told a court the company had a clear policy of asking obese passengers to pay for two seats.

Thread Title: Fat Man Sues Air France Over Plane Seat Row

Well this Moderator has been trying to keep the thread on topic and with 20 posts deleted I ask that members read the article and post only in relation to the topic at hand. Politics belongs in the Non Aviation Forum.

This topic appears frequently and has been often discussed. Please keep to topic and if the thread veers off topic it will be locked.

Regards, PanAm_DC10

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 16): That's the point. In the USA it is against the law to discriminate against people and you are forbidden from charging them extra, and REASONABLE accommodations must be made.

This is not entirely true; in most cases it is illegal (or violative of a regulation) to discriminate on the basis of race, sex, nationality, or recognized disibility. I'm not sure if obesity has made it into the legal version of "recognized" disability ala blind, deaf, etc.

In the case of a US airline, the Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA) goes out the window and all that's left is the Air Carrier Access Act (ACAA), which is older than the ADA but provides many of the same protections. The implementing regulations for the ACAA however, also states, quite specifically:

"Carriers are not required to furnish more than one seat per ticket or to provide a seat in a class of service other than the one the passenger has purchased." (Title 14, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 382, Subpart B, Section 382.38(i))

In addition, in the implementing regulations, only four classes of disabilites are recognized as being eligeable for special seating assignments, those are:
- A passenger using an asile chair may request an asile seat with a moveable armrest
- A seat next to a passenger for a personal attendant, or assistant if the passenger has a vision or hearing impairment (note that the attendant/assistant must pay for their ticket)
- A bulkhead seat or "other than a bulkhead seat" if the passenger is traveling with a service animal
- A bulkhead seat or "other seat that provides greater legroom..." for a person with a fused or imobilized leg.

Note that being "obease" "large" "fat" or "tall" isn't on this list.

Quoting Doona (Reply 24): Well, if the passenger in question wasn't required by the airline to purchase two seats, then it's hardly his or her fault, right?

Techincally, at least with most airlines Contract of Carriage, you are expected to "self-identify" and purchase the additional seat at the same time as you purchase the original seat (with the understanding, in most cases, that if the flight is not full the extra seat will be refunded). It's when you get to the airport and the agent finds out that (a) you are a bit large, and (b) you haven't done what you're suposed to that the issue is sometimes forced.

Signed,

Lincoln
The 6'-1" 120lbs stick, who has on more than one occassion been squeezed into one corner of my seat by a "large" person next to me.