Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
hmmmm...
Posts: 1967
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 8:32 am

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:52 am

Quoting Curmudgeon (Reply 26):
Does Indonesia require its airlines to comply with AD measures, such as the recent rudder actuator mods?

The directive to fix the rudder power control unit, (AD-97-14-04) did apply to all 737s worldwide and the deadline was August 4, 1999. Usually foreign regulators abide by FAA rulings. I believe Indonesia was no exception. But in a corrupt country like Indonesia, who is to say that the expensive retrofit work was actually done?


If this plane was not retrofitted with the new rudder system, then that is a theory that needs to be looked at. However, at cruising speed, an uncommanded hardover is not likely to lead to a crash because the blowdown limit is far less than the airspeed. It is at slow speeds, a speed point known as below crossover speed, like on approach, that an uncommanded rudder hardover would overpower the ailerons and make recovery impossible.

[Edited 2007-01-05 21:55:37]
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15614
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:57 am

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 46):

Yes, the US Navy or other military forces should participate with others using sophicated equipment the Indonesians' apparently don't have to locate the wreckage of this aircraft. 102 lives have been lost. We also need to find out why this aircraft went lost and crashed for the benefit of other operators of 737's, passanger safety, what can be done as to Indonesian ATC, and the like.

Boeing and Airbus should suspend parts sales to Adam Air as well as any airline that doesn't operate in a sound and safe way. That way, they can distance themselves from the liability if such airlines have crashes. I bet within a few days, some of the victims families from this crash will be suing Boeing as a deep pocket in USA or in Indonesia for compensation, even if Boeing isn't really responsible for this tragedy.

Another financial lever that should be pulled is for non-Indonesian insurerers and in turn reinsurerers for Adam Air suspend their coverage or raise the rates to very high levels to note the high risk they present.
 
Curmudgeon
Posts: 682
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:19 pm

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:59 am

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 50):
However, at cruising speed, an uncommanded hardover is not likely to lead to a crash because the blowdown limit is far less than the airspeed. It is at slow speeds, a speed point known as below crossover speed, like on approach, that an uncommanded rudder hardover would overpower the ailerons and make recovery impossible.

Yes indeed, and good point. I think that it is unlikely, but obviously one of the many, many questions that a competent investigation would ask. Given what we have seen of the cargo cult search and rescue efforts, and the political cover thus far, I'm betting that an unbiased and deliberate investigation ain't all that likely.
Jets are for kids
 
ATCGOD
Posts: 519
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:24 am

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:08 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 51):
Yes, the US Navy or other military forces should participate with others using sophicated equipment the Indonesians' apparently don't have to locate the wreckage of this aircraft. 102 lives have been lost. We also need to find out why this aircraft went lost and crashed for the benefit of other operators of 737's, passanger safety, what can be done as to Indonesian ATC, and the like.

I highly doubt the other 300 million Americans would agree with you. This is an Indonesian problem, let it stay there.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 51):
Boeing and Airbus should suspend parts sales to Adam Air as well as any airline that doesn't operate in a sound and safe way. That way, they can distance themselves from the liability if such airlines have crashes. I bet within a few days, some of the victims families from this crash will be suing Boeing as a deep pocket in USA or in Indonesia for compensation, even if Boeing isn't really responsible for this tragedy.

I highly doubt that Boeing is liable for a mal-maintained aircraft.
 
Palladium
Posts: 264
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 11:35 am

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:10 am

is it possible that this plane is crashed not in Sulawesi?

is there a possibility that when the aircraft lost contact with the ATC and the pilot still managed to fly the plane for quiet some time to somewhere safe before it crashed?
 
RIXrat
Posts: 674
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:20 am

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:12 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 51):
Boeing and Airbus should suspend parts sales to Adam Air as well as any airline that doesn't operate in a sound and safe way.

As far as parts sales are concerned, there is the black market or mom and pop enterprises that are well know for duplicating/copying the exact part you need, except the part does not meet the stress requirements of the manufacturer.

We've been through this before regarding bolts and screws and some structural integrity items. If I'm not mistaken, Taiwan was a big supplier, but now Indonesia, Thailand and Malaysia, are also a big supplier of these spares -- not to mention China.

A soft metal nut on a high tensile steel bolt just does not work. I could go on and on, but I think you get the idea. By the way, I'm not accusing Adam Air of anything.
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:32 am

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 53):
I highly doubt the other 300 million Americans would agree with you. This is an Indonesian problem, let it stay there.

Of course the US NAVY should help find the wreckage ... Why would this even be a issue for 300 million Americans?

We are currently working 3 737-400's due to go to PT Adams. We have found their team members to professional and qualified. My guess is that this will prove to be a technical malfunction of the aircraft . Proving it was due to bad maintenance should be reserved for after any investigation.

Very tragic situation , many people lost Friends and family this week. Peace to them.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
Curmudgeon
Posts: 682
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:19 pm

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:47 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 56):
Of course the US NAVY should help find the wreckage ... Why would this even be a issue for 300 million Americans?

This is beside the obvious point that these are Indonesian waters, and an Indonesian domestic affair. That it has been so dreadfully mismanaged seems to be acceptable to the Indonesians, or THEY would demand better.
Jets are for kids
 
YVRLTN
Posts: 2348
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:49 pm

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:20 am

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 50):
The directive to fix the rudder power control unit, (AD-97-14-04) did apply to all 737s worldwide and the deadline was August 4, 1999. Usually foreign regulators abide by FAA rulings. I believe Indonesia was no exception. But in a corrupt country like Indonesia, who is to say that the expensive retrofit work was actually done?

This 737 was not operated by Adam back in 99, was operated by BA or JAT back then, so i would feel its safe to say this was corrected - as its owned by ILFC (i think - or a lessor anyway) im sure they would make sure all of their fleet complied.

As there were some US citizens on board (2??), surely the US would want to assist find this aircraft asap, just for the sakes of their own citizens? Im surprised they are not under more pressure to do so from the families of those persons.

What a bizarre situation - it almost seems the Indo government dont want it found - or even as if they have found it, hence the story and 12 survivors, but what they found was incriminating, so this statement was retracted while they wait for the results of their own investigations and so they can cover up things they need to and then make their own story before revealing where the wreckage is and a Boeing team or whoever get to the site to find the doctored evidence. I know this cant possibly be true (can it??) and I tend to see the sense of Mandala499's scenario that it crashed over the ocean, but it almost seems that way.
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
asuflyer
Posts: 673
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:48 pm

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:29 am

I don't speak Indon but I came across this. I think it says that a Lion Air 794 received a distress signal. This is probably wrong but could someone please explain.

http://liputan6.com/view/7,135316,1,0,1168015253.html
 
Electech6299
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:13 am

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:33 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 56):
Of course the US NAVY should help find the wreckage ... Why would this even be a issue for 300 million Americans?

I have a half-dozen reasons, but I'll try to be breif.

The US Navy doesn't operate for free, it is paid for at taxpayer expense. International aid normally comes with reimbursement, or it is paid for by Congressional action as an aid package. If 300 million Americans don't want to foot the bill, their Congressmen are not going to write an aid package without a compelling reason to do so. Your compelling reason is....???

The more significant matter, as touched on by Curmudgeon, is that these waters are controlled by the Indo government. If we aren't invited, we can't do much without violating dozens of international laws and creating an international incident.

The Indo government doesn't seem too interested in American help because we tend to publicize our findings. It would be unacceptable to them if we go in and show how poorly the government conducted the search, and release information that could show Adam Air or Indo ATC as a causative or contributing factor.

Finally, I'd hate to be on a Navy search team getting information from the Indonesian government on where to search. When you take pride in your work, nothing is more disgraceful than working for incompetent clients. If NTSB were given wide latitude in the investigation and were authorized to direct the search efforts, that might be better, but just how likely do you think that is?
Send not to know for whom the bell tolls...it tolls for thee
 
User avatar
Buyantukhaa
Posts: 2332
Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 5:33 am

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:22 pm

Latest news:

A jetliner with 102 people aboard that disappeared after encountering 130 kph (80 mph) winds over northern Indonesian waters twice changed course, an official said, as authorities widened the search for the Boeing 737. A U.S. National Transportation Safety Board team arrived to help investigate the apparent crash of Adam Air Flight KI-574, which disappeared from the radar Monday near the Sulawesi coastal town of Majene without issuing a mayday.

[...]

The plane left Indonesia's main island of Java for Manado on Sulawesi but altered course and turned westward halfway into the two-hour trip after being warned of rough weather near the city of Makassar, said Eddy Suyanto, head of the search and rescue mission. But when it ran into winds of more than 130 kph (80 mph) over the Makassar Strait, it changed course again, bringing the plane eastward toward land, then disappeared from the radar, he said. It is not clear why there have been no transmissions from the plane's emergency locator.

[...]

With no sign of the wreckage, rescuers extended their search south toward the resort island of Bali, believing that in the event of a sea crash strong currents may have washed debris or bodies hundreds of kilometers (miles) away, officials said. Teams also patrolled coasts further northeast


http://www.chinapost.com.tw/latestnews/200716/43500.htm

How do they know the plane changed course "when it hit 130 kph winds"?

Let's see if there will be any confirmation... The rest of the article is quite poor.
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
198467
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:34 am

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:31 pm

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 61):
The plane left Indonesia's main island of Java for Manado on Sulawesi but altered course and turned westward halfway into the two-hour trip after being warned of rough weather near the city of Makassar, said Eddy Suyanto, head of the search and rescue mission. But when it ran into winds of more than 130 kph (80 mph) over the Makassar Strait, it changed course again, bringing the plane eastward toward land, then disappeared from the radar, he said.

If this is true, where will the plane be when radar contact was lost? Near MKS?
When you play, people stare. When you work, people don't care.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6600
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:19 pm

Quote:
The directive to fix the rudder power control unit, (AD-97-14-04) did apply to all 737s worldwide and the deadline was August 4, 1999. Usually foreign regulators abide by FAA rulings. I believe Indonesia was no exception. But in a corrupt country like Indonesia, who is to say that the expensive retrofit work was actually done?

The aircraft involved only joined the Adam Air fleet recently, if I remember correctly, 2005/2006. And if I didn't miss anything, the only 737s that were operating in Indonesia before 1999 have largely left the country...

In reaction to this crash, the Dept of Transport has issued a new rule... All aircraft are now to fly the assigned/filed airway, no more direct routing/tracking allowed... Whuddamess!

Well, following the assigned/file airway didn't prevent Adam Air's KKE from going 400NM astray last year!

Palladium,
Well, try this:
http://www.indoflyer.net/indonews/isi.asp?aid=428

YVRLTN,
I too sometime feel that someone doesn't want this aircraft to be found!

BuyantUkhaa,
This part is being disputed:

Quote:
The plane left Indonesia's main island of Java for Manado on Sulawesi but altered course and turned westward halfway into the two-hour trip after being warned of rough weather near the city of Makassar, said Eddy Suyanto, head of the search and rescue mission. But when it ran into winds of more than 130 kph (80 mph) over the Makassar Strait, it changed course again, bringing the plane eastward toward land, then disappeared from the radar, he said. It is not clear why there have been no transmissions from the plane's emergency locator.

Pilots are split between saying the winds enroute weren't a factor, and those who have screamed on TV that Adam's been forcing pilots to fly regardless of anything.

AFAIK, within the investigation team, this theory is being analysed too. The few phone convos I've had here and there led me to belief that this theory is potentially, yet another goose chase/redherring/whathaveyou. It is not consistent with the radar findings, and during the time of the disappearance, turning east would put the aircraft into heavier weather... just doesn't make sense in my personal opinion.

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4110
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:52 pm

The whole search and rescue circus set up by the Indonesian Government is by now looking way beyond pathetic. Yesterday saw the first day of operation of the recently enlisted psychics and paranormals, locally referred to as Dukuns, who duly started off their quest for the missing plane by sacrificing a couple of buffaloes in order to appease the spirits of the jungle and clear the path of the operation. I am sure a solution must be imminent now...

What is even more unsettling, though, is that today, virtually all local media are opening with this psychic story. The real drama, which surely is the fate of the 102 passengers and crew on board of the ill fated aircraft seems all but forgotten.

Meanwhile, rumors about the fate of the plane spread around the country via mobile phone text messages sometimes containing the most ludicrous of theories, including the ever popular ghost theory. Simple solutions for simple minds really.

I have no doubt that the Singaporean and US teams which are currently involved in the operation, are severely restricted in their mission by the Indonesian authorities, who are likely to do whatever it takes to ensure that the Government in its supervising role for both the civil aviation administration and the ATC setup escapes any kind of blame. Let's also not forget that Adam Air is very well connected in government circles, although the founder of Adam Air, and current speaker of the Indonesian House of Representatives, found it necessary to announce to the press that, effective January 1st, he is no longer engaged in the airline is any function. Talk about a coincidence...

This entire episode of calamity, utter chaos and disorienting incompetence very much begs the question as to the future of Indonesian domestic aviation. For now, it seems very much business as usual. Even the extra security guards around the Adam Air offices at Jakarta's Soekarno Hatta airport - Indonesians have a tendency to get physical when venting their anger - have been withdrawn and the airline is once again operating as usual. Adam Air's load factors don't seem to have dropped a bit and its passengers look very indifferent to what has happened over the past couple of days.

It is pretty clear that, although the President of the country has once again ordered a thorough investigation of the entire industry and its licensing, maintenance and commercial practices, those in charge of supervising this industry are very much striving for a status quo. Indeed, too many people stand to lose too much if a real clean up of the malpractices were to take place. Nothing will probably come of this investigation in terms of making this industry safer.

Not only the airlines and their sometimes questionable records should be under scrutiny. Indonesia's aviation scene is also suffering from severe infrastructure deficiencies, not only because of a lack of investment in the upkeep of airport and ATC infrastructure, but also because a large part of the financial means that are reserved for investment in this sector is being lost through corruption, collusion and nepotism by means of mark up schemes that are inflating the costs of these investments.

In particular secondary airports, with little or no international traffic, are suffering because of the poor infrastructure. As such, year after year the country's aviation system is suffering from unnecessary delays and irregularities during the monsoon (rainy) season - which is currently underway - because a number of airports are not equipped to deal with the heavy weather. During the rainy season, runway overruns, like the one of Lion Air at Makassar just over a week ago, are the order of the day. Again, the government has so far been unwilling to take any corrective action.

As far as the airlines go, too many maintenance and security related incidents have been reported on and off the record to keep denying that there is a problem, yet that is exactly the line of the country's Ministry of Transportation and Communication.

Clearly, the country itself is both incapable and unwilling to even initiate corrective action in this domain, so I believe that other countries should step in and take their responsibilities. Apart from Garuda and Merpati, Adam Air currently operates twice daily to Singapore as well as to Penang, Lion Air has flights to Singapore and Kuala Lumpur, Batavia operates to Ghuangzhou and Sriwijaya Air flies daily into Davao. Many of these airlines also keep boasting about their big international expansion plans for the region and beyond.

Isn't there anything the governments of Singapore, Malaysia and others, through their regulatory bodies, could do in terms of enforcing safety and maintenance standards on these airlines, not only for the aircraft used for international operations, but, more generally, for the entire fleets?

Quite obviously, the Indonesian Government would not be enchanted by such foreign intervention, which it would undoubtedly describe as yet another attempt by evil foreigners to undermine the commercial interests if not the territorial integrity of Indonesia. We've heard all of those lines before, so who cares? Isn't it more important to at least try to prevent any further calamities? Also, next time Adam Air may come down with a plane load of Singaporeans.

I'm not making myself any illusions, though. The Indonesian government is and will remain stuck in a quagmire of corruption, incompetence and complete disregard for the value of a human life. Meanwhile, the outside world seems to have enough reasons to just shut up and let the Indonesians drag on at the risk of further loss of innocent lives.
 
Electech6299
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:13 am

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:00 pm

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 63):
Pilots are split between saying the winds enroute weren't a factor, and those who have screamed on TV that Adam's been forcing pilots to fly regardless of anything.

It sounds like pilot discontent is becoming an obstacle to the investigation. People don't think clearly when they harbor this kind of resentment against their (or another) employer, and form prejudiced opinions. Adam Air might not be at fault, but those with a grudge against them are already convinced they are and base their statements on feelings, not facts.

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 63):
It is not consistent with the radar findings,

Definitely sounds off to me- radar data seems to be one of the few unbiased pieces of evidence here.

In the article, "disappeared from radar"- I'm assuming that means flew out of range, as has been discussed above?
Send not to know for whom the bell tolls...it tolls for thee
 
User avatar
jetfuel
Posts: 1078
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:27 pm

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:40 pm

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 63):
Isn't there anything the governments of Singapore, Malaysia and others, through their regulatory bodies, could do in terms of enforcing safety and maintenance standards on these airlines, not only for the aircraft used for international operations, but, more generally, for the entire fleets?

The easiest thing is for countries to ban the operations of suspect airlines into their airports.............. (on the basis of not reaching highest standards)

I just read a news article which states that

"In what officials said was his last conversation with air traffic control in Makassar, the pilot said the flight had encountered crosswinds and needed safe coordinates. Radar continued to track the flight for some time after that"

I assume the pilot was after radar vectoring, but I read into it something more to do with him being lost. I know a lot can be confused in translations. But we keep getting snippets of conflicting info. Now surely there must be some sure answer as to the aircraft's last radar position and tracking?
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
Electech6299
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:13 am

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:00 pm

For those of us not too familiar with the geography, here's a simplified map of pertinent features from this story. The search areas are what I've gathered from Mandala499's posts. Let me know if you think something is out of place, if you want anything else added, or if you want the Google Earth file and I'll e-mail it for you.


[Edited 2007-01-06 10:23:25]
Send not to know for whom the bell tolls...it tolls for thee
 
Chiguire
Posts: 1848
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:11 pm

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:35 pm

There is one thing that comes to my mind when seeing this map and reading about the way the investigations are being carried out by the Indonesian Government:
Could it be that the crash site they found first was the correct one ? And that - after announcing 12 survivors - they found out that there we no survivors ? And then decided not to announce that kind of bad news but just making a big mystery out of the whole story ?

After heaving read HB-IWC and Mandada499's posts looks like almost everything is possible. They now had three days to let a wreck disappear from the real crash site !
 
Morvious
Posts: 657
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 8:36 pm

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:47 pm

Quoting Chiguire (Reply 68):
They now had three days to let a wreck disappear from the real crash site !

There is simply no way to let a crash site disappear in just 3 days if it did hit the mountains without someone knowing what is going on.
The parts would be spreaded over a large area and the nature itself at that place would be really damaged as well. Not something they can fix.

Why didn't they searched the water just right of the approx. crash site? And how populated is that area? If there are any villages, then atleast someone must have heard it over flying when it crashed on land.
have a good day,

HereThen
 
lostturttle
Posts: 134
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:17 am

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:56 pm

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 63):
In reaction to this crash, the Dept of Transport has issued a new rule... All aircraft are now to fly the assigned/filed airway, no more direct routing/tracking allowed... Whuddamess!



Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 64):
The whole search and rescue circus set up by the Indonesian Government is by now looking way beyond pathetic. Yesterday saw the first day of operation of the recently enlisted psychics and paranormals, locally referred to as Dukuns, who duly started off their quest for the missing plane by sacrificing a couple of buffaloes in order to appease the spirits of the jungle and clear the path of the operation. I am sure a solution must be imminent now...

The one thing that these two threads have taught me is "A Great Difference in cultures still exists around the world!"

I have a lot of trouble understanding a lot of what has been said, (and I do not mean the technical side) But thanks to some well informed fellow Anetters I believe the "Culture Gap" is narrowing.
 
lutfi
Posts: 888
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2000 6:33 pm

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:24 pm

HB-IWC - you said
"Isn't there anything the governments of Singapore, Malaysia and others, through their regulatory bodies, could do in terms of enforcing safety and maintenance standards on these airlines, not only for the aircraft used for international operations, but, more generally, for the entire fleets?

Quite obviously, the Indonesian Government would not be enchanted by such foreign intervention, which it would undoubtedly describe as yet another attempt by evil foreigners to undermine the commercial interests if not the territorial integrity of Indonesia. We've heard all of those lines before, so who cares? Isn't it more important to at least try to prevent any further calamities? Also, next time Adam Air may come down with a plane load of Singaporeans."

Ah yes - but remember reciprocity. ICAO says that governments should recognize each others authority. When in Indonesia, there were a couple of fights with DGAC over this - insisting that they (IDO DGAC) had to recognise the licences granted to foreign airlines by their governments, and we were not going to agree to pay for IDO govt officials to come and license us. The day that the Singapore govt insists that it has the right to license Indonesian carriers - well, let us just say that the IDO govt would insist in return on licensing SQ and MI...
 
RobertS975
Posts: 989
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 2:17 am

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:50 pm

Now they are working with psychics to find the plane. I DO feel a bit sad for the buffalo though.

http://www.thejakartapost.com/[email protected]&irec=0
 
User avatar
Buyantukhaa
Posts: 2332
Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 5:33 am

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:15 am

Quoting Lutfi (Reply 71):
Ah yes - but remember reciprocity. ICAO says that governments should recognize each others authority. When in Indonesia, there were a couple of fights with DGAC over this - insisting that they (IDO DGAC) had to recognise the licences granted to foreign airlines by their governments, and we were not going to agree to pay for IDO govt officials to come and license us. The day that the Singapore govt insists that it has the right to license Indonesian carriers - well, let us just say that the IDO govt would insist in return on licensing SQ and MI...

So what about the EU blacklist? That would go against ICAO too then. I'm not saying the regulatory boies in Singapore should do the same, that would certainly cause them trouble, but they could issue regulatory requirements that decent airlines could easily match. And lots of inspections too...
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
Palladium
Posts: 264
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 11:35 am

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:46 am

what if this plane not even somewhere near Sulawesi..... I have a feeling this plane was wayyyy of their original flight plan.
 
acabgd
Posts: 228
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 9:55 am

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:23 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 58):
This 737 was not operated by Adam back in 99, was operated by BA or JAT back then, so i would feel its safe to say this was corrected - as its owned by ILFC (i think - or a lessor anyway) im sure they would make sure all of their fleet complied.

Correct, this plane flew with JAT as YU-AOO and I can confirm all 737s operated by JAT were serviced in compliance with AD-97-14-04 (the "Rudder problem fix").

Therefore, this *should* not be the reason for the crash.

Sad to see our ex-machine disappear/go down. Flew on it many times.
CSud,D9,MD8x,D10,Trid,BAC1,A30,31,319,320,321,33,346,B71,72,73,74,75,76,77,L10,S20,A42,A72,T13,T15,F50,F70,F100,B146
 
aidan
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:40 pm

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:22 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 8):
Welcome to one of the world's few remaining Banana Republics!



Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 64):
I'm not making myself any illusions, though. The Indonesian government is and will remain stuck in a quagmire of corruption, incompetence and complete disregard for the value of a human life.



Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 8):
I would presume that, if this disaster and its ensuing mishaps in communication had happened in many other countries in the world, political heads would have long rolled by now. Not so in this country, where political responsibility is a concept as shallow as the bearers of the political offices.

HB-IWC, while I appreciate your aviation expertise, your comments about Indonesia, its government and its people its neither appropriate nor in the right place.

Yes, our government is far from perfect and our people still not wearing cloth in some part of Indonesia and majority seem to believe paranormal rather than common sense. We still in the bottom list of most corrupt country in the world where corruption is rampant, law enforcement is still sadly weak and fundamentalism is seem to be the order of the day.

As a voting citizens of Indonesia, and proud of it, what I see is bleak for the future of our country. But at least fundamentally as a country we have take necessary but difficult step towards improvement. We are the third largest democracy in the world with open society and free press. Though sometimes this resulting in "democratic hangover" or a "free press madness" where it just difficult to make the country moving and everybody is craving for their three minutes of fame.

Coming from you, HB-IWC, and reading most of your post, I wonder why you despise Indonesia so much? Do you live in Indonesia? If yes, why are you still here in Indonesia? Do you work here? If yes, please find work some place else or stop complaining and keep the discussion on the aviation side.
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4110
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:17 pm

Quoting Aidan (Reply 76):
Coming from you, HB-IWC, and reading most of your post, I wonder why you despise Indonesia so much? Do you live in Indonesia? If yes, why are you still here in Indonesia? Do you work here? If yes, please find work some place else or stop complaining and keep the discussion on the aviation side.

Your argument is flawed in that it fails to recognize that there is an inherent link between the sad state of your country's government and institutions and the unfolding debacle in the search for a missing aircraft. If you took the time to go through all the contributions in this thread as well as in the previous one then you would see that a number of people who have all worked in the country or are still doing so have posted in equal terms about the complete shambles of the institutions here.

So, while I'd gladly restrict myself to discussing the aviation side of your country, something I have done on many occasions in the past here, I believe that it is impossible to grasp the scope of the drama that has been ongoing for almost a week now without also discussing the local background of this story.

It is clear that political links between the airline involved and the country's highest authorities have over and over again kept the company from being thoroughly investigated, as when the government undertook virtually no action when this same airline suffered an incident whereby one of its aircraft lost all communicational and navigational equipment and, after hours of swerving around, ended up in an airfield hundreds of kilometers away from its destination.

Equally so, this airline's political connections have landed it the traffic rights to serve Singapore in the most illustrious of circumstances. I guess that the fact that the airline's then-Chairman cum Speaker of the House of Representatives invited hundreds of colleagues for a free shopping spree to Singapore on the country's dime must have helped quite a bit.

Your country's infamous ranking in worldwide corruption indices is well known and published, yet I believe it is important that people understand how all of this plays out in practical terms, as when infrastructure projects are only partly completed, if at all, because of huge mark ups and inherent collusion in the tender processes, resulting in the current sorry state of certain local airports where runway overruns are the order of the day during the rainy season, despite so-called major investments in the infrastructure, often with overseas aid, I might add, through development projects of the Asian Development Bank or the German Kredit fur Wiederaufbau.

I have extensive experience in Indonesian aviation where, like in every other industry in the country, corruption is rampant and money talks. The delivery and extension of Airworthiness Certificates and other assorted licenses is a pure money issue, and often these documents are issued without an thorough inspection of the aircraft involved by the regulatory instances. The government, through its various institutions, is perpetually throwing bureaucratic hurdles in front of the airlines, with the sole purpose of keeping the money flowing, because every stempel, signature or seal, comes at a price. The enforcement of rigorous safety and security standards by these regulatory authorities is the least of these officials’ concerns.

Meanwhile, the situation at the airline level isn’t much rosier. Multiple reports have over the years arisen of malpractices by some of these local airlines, yet the government fails to investigate, let alone take punitive action. Here again, money talks, and airlines are allowed to bully their pilots into flying planes in less than favorable conditions and bend rules to the benefit of the company.

The beleaguered Indonesian air passenger hasn’t exactly been spared either. Just a couple of weeks ago, it transpired that Adam Air – yes the same Adam Air we have been discussing for about a week now – was threatened with a boycott by the Association of Indonesian Travel Agents because of commercial malpractices. As it turned out, Adam was found to deny passengers the right of boarding under all kinds of phony pretexts, in order to make up for rampant overbooking and cancellations. Passengers who turned up on time, were told that they were actually late, that check in had closed but that they could rebook their ticket at a much inflated price. Ahhh, the perennial line “there is a problem, but I can help you…” – another cornerstone of Indonesian Society.

Now, for the Association of Indonesian Travel Agents to take such a foolhardy step as a boycott of one of the key players in the local industry, it is safe to say that the airline must have been interpreting its own conditions of carriage very imaginatively, to use the understatement of the year. Yet, after the initial ban was issued, nothing has ever been heard about it again. Has the issue been resolved? Doubt it. Has money changed hands? You bet.

This example is but one of a long list of malpractices. If you do a search for Indonesian aviation topics over the past couple of years, you will find many more, most of the by Mandala499 and myself. To add one more example, just yesterday, I was confronted once again with the government’s mismanagement of the yearly Hajj Operation. Pilgrims returning from Saudi Arabia are delayed for many hours because the government, which is the sole organizer of the Hajj, failed to arrange for adequate facilities at Jeddah’s King Abdul Aziz International airport, resulting in thousands of people relegated to just one little gate. Once again, Indonesia is the laughing stock of the rest of the world.

Overall, the state of the country’s airline industry isn’t good, and, if anything, is further deteriorating as we speak, despite all the big announcements of investigations and clean ups by the government. Talking the talk is easy. Walking the walk is quite another thing.

Your above comments are shortsighted and indicative of a sort of xenophobia that I have experienced many times before. Mind you, I don’t blame you for that, as I believe that your educational system, which is very much a perennial follow up of stating that Indonesia is perfect, does not instill you with the kind critical, analytical and logical skills that are part of the curriculum in other parts of the world. Criticism of the government is still reserved for only a small part of the population here, and most people, although they are to some extent aware of the malpractices, prefer to just look the other way and go on taking care of their own personal needs. If anything, the best reaction one can hope for is the previously stated TII – This Is Indonesia.

Yet, that is exactly where lies the problem. In many other countries in this world, in the face of the current disaster and the ensuing incompetence in the search and rescue operation – I am talking here about the fake announcement that the plane had been found and that there were 12 survivors – political heads would have rolled. The Minister of Transportation as well as the head of the search and rescue operation, the commander of the Hasanudin airbase, would have been forced out of office for gross incompetence and negligence. Not so in Indonesia, mainly because of the lackluster reaction of the public opinion at large in the face of this incompetence.

That is where you come in, Aidan, because rather than shooting the messenger – in this case me – you should shoot the message. It is high time for you and your fellow countrymen to stand up and indicate that you have had enough of the current situation and that change is needed. Because, let me ask you, what good has there been in overthrowing a brutal dictatorship almost 9 years ago, if the current state of the affairs in the country is actually worse and deteriorating. Resorting to the popular line that all things foreign are bad and foreigners here and abroad are only intent on undermining the country and its strategic commercial interests, might be easy and by doing so you would only be emulating the official line of your government, yet most expatriates working in Indonesia are going out of their way to make things better, often to the expense of bitter disillusionment.

I promise you that, if no serious action is taken in the Indonesian Civil Industry, the string of incidents and disasters will continue, and more innocent passengers, mostly Indonesians, as most foreigners have the financial means to go for the more expensive yet more trustworthy options, will perish because of a combination of endemic corruption, corporate recklessness and gross incompetence.

I’d be glad to discuss these issues with you in more detail. Just send me a private message and we can set up a meeting anywhere in the country.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6600
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:26 pm

Quoting Electech6299 (Reply 65):
It sounds like pilot discontent is becoming an obstacle to the investigation. People don't think clearly when they harbor this kind of resentment against their (or another) employer, and form prejudiced opinions. Adam Air might not be at fault, but those with a grudge against them are already convinced they are and base their statements on feelings, not facts.

There's a lawsuit going on...
The thing is, those who have been in Adam Air or have been familiar with Adam Air, would know that the company is responsible one way or another for a lot of (if not all) the incidents/accidents. The problem is when those people become focal, they fall victim to being labelled as "resentful". The company is letting it be so the public sentiment will be against those who speak out, despite the truth.

Quoting Jetfuel (Reply 66):
Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 63):
Isn't there anything the governments of Singapore, Malaysia and others, through their regulatory bodies, could do in terms of enforcing safety and maintenance standards on these airlines, not only for the aircraft used for international operations, but, more generally, for the entire fleets?

Excuse me Jetfuel, but where did I write that paragraph you quoted? I would appreciate an admission that i did not write the above (no blame assigned of course)... The last thing I want is getting accused of something (in real life, not in a.net life) I did not write!

Quoting Jetfuel (Reply 66):
"In what officials said was his last conversation with air traffic control in Makassar, the pilot said the flight had encountered crosswinds and needed safe coordinates. Radar continued to track the flight for some time after that"

I would not buy that explanation, this is not official yet. The official version remains as before. These kinds of "he said that his friend said that his friend said that..." kinds of things is THE REAL OBSTACLE to the search efforts.

Everyone is desperate for attention and publicity. There's that guy hanging on a tree in Paliwali wanting to be the first one to spot pieces of the wreckage. There's mr. XYZ somewhere else has said that they saw a low flying plane on Jan 1... all of a sudden, reports of low flying planes have cropped up allover the country, the funniest/saddest of course, a report by three people who said they saw the aircraft flying low over Sumenep circa. 100NM from Surabaya late in the afternoon of Jan01! Then reports here and there about ELT locations etc...

Why the hell are people making all these things? They want to be the hero of the day! Some would be making ridiculous witness statements in the hope of if they're right, they'll get recognition (or even have a de facto right to demand money from God knows who) for it!

This whole episode of the search is turning out to reveal the worst of people's characters instead.

Quoting Electech6299 (Reply 67):
For those of us not too familiar with the geography, here's a simplified map of pertinent features from this story. The search areas are what I've gathered from Mandala499's posts. Let me know if you think something is out of place, if you want anything else added, or if you want the Google Earth file and I'll e-mail it for you.

Well, more or less correct. "Unofficial search area" have largely disappeared from the limelight.

Quoting Chiguire (Reply 68):
Could it be that the crash site they found first was the correct one ? And that - after announcing 12 survivors - they found out that there we no survivors ? And then decided not to announce that kind of bad news but just making a big mystery out of the whole story ?

Well, there are only 2 possibilities... and after being told on how those witnesses stated the details of the site, the possibilities are:
1. Yes it was found. They shot the 12 survivors and decided to hush the whole thing up.
2. No it was not found. The whole thing was a hoax to throw everyone off and trigger off mass speculation of the locations to prevent the aircraft being found with no survivors.

Problem with #1, there are now hundreds if not thousands of non-military, non-police and non-SAR people in the area... shutting them up would be quite an expensive proposition, unless someone issues a list of recently missing persons numbering the hundreds or thousands within the next 6 months!

Problem with #2, then what if someone DOES find it? The publicity surrounding the mess is already overwhelming. Support for the 102 families are growing.

But then again, those are just conspiracy theories... No one knows where the plane is.

Quoting Palladium (Reply 74):
what if this plane not even somewhere near Sulawesi..... I have a feeling this plane was wayyyy of their original flight plan.

Try that "unoffical search area" at electechs' googlemap...

Quoting Acabgd (Reply 75):
Sad to see our ex-machine disappear/go down. Flew on it many times.

Acabdg, Here's a tribute to the aircraft from someone who used to work on the aircraft...

Quote:
Inallilahi KKW.

I touched you many times . I reduce your load with my own bare hand due to your engine condition at that time. I yell at another person at that time because I know you weren't fit to fly. I re-calculated your plan because you can not legally fly RVSM airspace sometimes. I don't mind loosing my job at that time as long as you, the crews, the passangers, are save and sound.

The engineers, operations personnel, crew, we all know that you need to rest. We all know that you are tired.
Too tired to fly. Too tired to do anything. All you need is just a little bit of Tender Loving Care from the "upper hands."

No more the non-bright-couloured PKKKW. You are one of a kind. In the sea of oranges, you are the brightest one.
You are gone now. Taking all the crews and the passangers with you.

I am sorry. I am very sorry for not being to be able to protect you anymore. I wasn't there at the time. I was unable to protect you, the crews, and the passangers. Now you are gone...

My heart is always with you... I'll see you when my time comes

I hope this sheds a light to what the dedication is like for some in Adam Air, who has been there, and against those who are the "bad guys" within.

Quoting Aidan (Reply 76):
HB-IWC, while I appreciate your aviation expertise, your comments about Indonesia, its government and its people its neither appropriate nor in the right place.

Aidan,
Unfortunately, there are some truth in his posts/comments... From what I know, he doesn't despise the country, he's frustrated by it. He's still here coz he wants to be a part of the change (of course, being paid at the same time, we all do want that for ourselves too).

I have heard comments from government officials (with my own ears) that points to corruption, incompetence, and complete disregard for the value of human life.

As for shallow responsibility, don't get me started... the Minister for Religious Affairs refused to stand down after the Hajj catering scandal (Indonesia charges a fee and pays for catering of its govt. organised hajj, despite being able to have that for free from the Saudi govt...)... And then the Director of Air Communication last year stated that it was going to give Adam Air a stern warning and punishment... 1 year have passed, a few incidents and accidents have happened, and now 1 plane is missing with 102 pax potentially dead... and what? No official warning was issued, and ask the guy about it and guess what his answer was? "Errr, did I even say that? No I did not!"... despite written records of his public statement otherwise.

Aidan, you may not like HB-IWC's political comments, but Indonesia need people like him, to keep reminding us that "we're not yet there" and need to continue to improve. You and me might know that without a reminder from him, but the vast majority doesn't and DO PREFER TO BLAME SOMETHING FOR OUR OWN SHORTCOMINGS.... It's not easy, even I argue against HB-IWC... but we don't loose sight of the objective, that is need for improvement.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 77):
I’d be glad to discuss these issues with you in more detail. Just send me a private message and we can set up a meeting anywhere in the country.

Can I join in? I think it is time for us to take that coffee or lunch again! *grin*

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
Electech6299
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:13 am

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:50 pm

Quoting Morvious (Reply 69):
Why didn't they searched the water just right of the approx. crash site? And how populated is that area? If there are any villages, then atleast someone must have heard it over flying when it crashed on land.

The water "just to the right" is actually at least 100 miles away. This image is extremely deceiving as to the scale- the displayed area is almost the size of Australia!

Also, the last known heading of the aircraft - 037 or 038 (NNE) doesn't corroborate with that theory. If the heading did not change, the aircraft was on a path that would skirt the coastal areas of western Sulawesi, cross into the Gulf of Tonini between Poso and Palu, and return over water northeast of Gorontalo, some 300 miles west of Manado.

If I got the coordinates correct, even the initial reported crash site seems off. The site quoted in the media is at a heading of approximately 060 from the last radar contact. Not inconceivable, if the pilots received a new flight path from ATC, but that has yet to be made clear. If the pilots did not receive new vectors, they should have continued on their initial course- although why they were flying a course of 037 instead of 045 is still a mystery (based on the reports so far...)

Here's a slightly smaller scale map, with lat/long grid for reference. Initial crash site coordinates taken from the report in post 44 of the original thread.
Send not to know for whom the bell tolls...it tolls for thee
 
ZKNBX
Posts: 440
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:24 pm

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:15 pm

Well said HB-IWC from somebody who travels to and from Indonesia twice a year.
 
Electech6299
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:13 am

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:28 pm

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 78):
The problem is when those people become focal, they fall victim to being labelled as "resentful".

I didn't mean to say that these people are not correct in their opinions or "label" them. I intended my remarks to address the search efforts only- which at this point need to be separated from the history of Adam Air. I fully support speaking out against the airline, especially after an incident- but anyone seriously involved in the investigation needs to keep clear of that until all the facts of this particular flight are known and understood. Naturally the press reports are not coming from those seriously involved in the investigation...  sarcastic 

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 78):
Well, there are only 2 possibilities... and after being told on how those witnesses stated the details of the site, the possibilities are:
1. Yes it was found. They shot the 12 survivors and decided to hush the whole thing up.
2. No it was not found. The whole thing was a hoax to throw everyone off and trigger off mass speculation of the locations to prevent the aircraft being found with no survivors.

I wonder about two other possibilities.
1) The crash was found, but there were actually no survivors among the pax, only "survivors" among the villagers. The initial report was quashed after the errors in reporting were discovered. (This has the same problems as your #1 above...with all the attention in this area, if the crash is there, it's going to be discovered and reported.) They are simply withholding the press report while it has so much international attention, and then in a few weeks, when everyone has forgotten the incident, they will "find" the crash and it will only make 3rd page news, not headlines.
2) The crash is not found, the initial report was entirely made up by the local population, not the government. The incompetence shown in issuing the report is embarrassing to the politicians. Some actually want to find the craft but now political cover is more important, so there isn't much support for the search from the Indonesian Government.

Same 2 basic theories- it's there or it isn't, but if it's there then surely someone knows where, or soon will.

We're 6 days out now. Even unreasonable hope is waning, we're going on miraculous. Still praying for a miracle, but more importantly, consolation for 102 families...  pray 
Send not to know for whom the bell tolls...it tolls for thee
 
lewellen
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:39 pm

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:45 pm

First time A.net poster.

I think a round of applause is in order for Mandala499, HB-IWC, Aidan, and everyone else who has contributed meaningful insight to this unfortunate tragedy.

This is a difficult and trying time for anyone who follows the aviation industry, and this incident tears at the cultural fabric and norms of many nations. I wish I had more to offer in my first post, but I wanted to thank you for leading a constructive debate that can only make civil aviation safer in the future.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6600
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:20 pm

Quoting Electech6299 (Reply 81):
I didn't mean to say that these people are not correct in their opinions or "label" them. I intended my remarks to address the search efforts only- which at this point need to be separated from the history of Adam Air. I fully support speaking out against the airline, especially after an incident- but anyone seriously involved in the investigation needs to keep clear of that until all the facts of this particular flight are known and understood. Naturally the press reports are not coming from those seriously involved in the investigation...

Thanks... whether it needs to be separated or not, is not a simple issue. Certain theories need to be based on "habits" of Adam Air, but those must be very carefully selected. I think we can all agree that everything else that cannot be used to support the search effort for the moment should be put aside. All the mess/talk/scandals/blasphemy/confrontations/debates on Adam Air's regulatory compliance should be saved for after the aircraft and or the victims found.

Quoting Electech6299 (Reply 81):
Some actually want to find the craft but now political cover is more important, so there isn't much support for the search from the Indonesian Government.

There are those in the govt. who want to find it, and there are those who don't, and there are those who probably loose out if it's found. However, to understand the intricacies of that, needs a topic of 1000 replies in non-aviation for a complete understanding (even we're struggling to understand it in a single context down here in Jakarta).

There's only a few hours of daylight left today, within 24hrs, it would have been missing for 7 days...

I'll be away for a few days, with no a.net access. I hope by the time I come back, the airplane would have been found, though I hope better news will come through my cellphone before then. I've been told to be on standby in case of anything concerning the email to the NTSC... *yikes*

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
Electech6299
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:13 am

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:32 pm

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 83):
even we're struggling to understand it in a single context down here in Jakarta

I noticed another thread regarding (I think) Jakarta's emergency radio receivers?

Can't read the article, I'm assuming it's getting attention because of this incident.

Jakata Airport Emergency Radar NOT Working At All

Would that be a receiver for 121.5? Even so, it doesn't look like much of the Adam Air flight path would be line of sight to Jakarta...
Send not to know for whom the bell tolls...it tolls for thee
 
9V
Posts: 1368
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:35 am

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:55 pm

Lost plane 'battled 130kph winds'

U.S. experts arrived on Indonesia's Sulawesi island Saturday to help investigate the apparent crash of a jetliner that disappeared with 102 people on board after battling fierce winds and storms.

By nightfall Saturday, after a fifth day of searching, there was still no trace of the Boeing 737 of Indonesian budget carrier Adam Air.

Three warships will also comb the Makassar Strait area, said Suparman, chief of Makassar Search and Rescue Agency. Like many Indonesians, Suparman uses a single name.
 
aidan
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:40 pm

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:01 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 77):
I promise you that, if no serious action is taken in the Indonesian Civil Industry, the string of incidents and disasters will continue, and more innocent passengers, mostly Indonesians, as most foreigners have the financial means to go for the more expensive yet more trustworthy options, will perish because of a combination of endemic corruption, corporate recklessness and gross incompetence.

I'd be glad to discuss these issues with you in more detail. Just send me a private message and we can set up a meeting anywhere in the country.

HB-IWC, thank you for a much civilize way of discussion. Last time I check this is still an aviation forum. No political, nor religion, nor race shall be discuss here.

I know how bad our country transportation state is right now. I don't need you to tell me that. How we still miss 400 + people from the ferry disaster day just before Adam's lost. Or how just in daily basis there are so much road accident by motor bike that perhaps its kills more than air and sea accident combine.

I trust you an expert in your field, I do not doubt it. But please do not generalized that Indonesia, be its government or its people, all are prefer "dukun" more than common sense, and that all of us are in "banana republic" and enjoy corruption and other people suffering, that all government officer are "shallow" and sleazy. It just tell me how "shallow" your self are.

Thank you again for your offering for further discussion, but I shall pass on that.
 
aidan
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:40 pm

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sun Jan 07, 2007 8:59 pm

HB-IWC, just so we clear on why I call you "shallow", but first apologize to forum member as this may not have anything to do with aviation.

I call you "shallow" because from the only point of view of aviation you judge Indonesia as a "Banana Republic". Please go to this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_republic and do share if we truly are a "Banana Republic". For you, since our aviation is so bad, so does the rest of the country and its people.

Secondly, "The whole search and rescue circus set up by the Indonesian Government is by now looking way beyond pathetic. Yesterday saw the first day of operation of the recently enlisted psychics and paranormals, locally referred to as Dukuns, who duly started off their quest for the missing plane by sacrificing a couple of buffaloes in order to appease the spirits of the jungle and clear the path of the operation. I am sure a solution must be imminent now... "

This is certainly coming from some one who really ignorant about Indonesia's people. Since you here quite often, its startle me that you so ignorant about our culture. Don't you realize that in this part of the world, such practice is common and if I not recall even the victims family is requesting such practice?

What is wrong is IF the Government drop the entire SAR effort and just follow this dukun rituals or religion rituals. What is so wrong for the government to be sensitive to the victims family's need and conduct such cultural or religion practice? Anything that can ease the pain and suffering of the victims shall be implemented, and not become a mockery of some ignorant that think the best way is their own way.

Now, I'm just an ordinary citizen, neither in politics nor working in government and I don't know what will be the outcome of this Adam's debacle. My guts tell me it will not be good. While a class action to Adam Air is on going, but if history repeat it self, not much good to the Indonesia aviation industry will come out of it, at least on the short term.

Now, what can I do? I tell you what HB-IWC.

What I have is my vote. That is what I did when I was not happy with the previous government. And that what our fellow Acehness did and select their own Governor that not coming from any established political party.

That what I shall do next election, either for the Presidential, the Representative, or the Governor election. It will be a long and hard journey. Not only to improve our aviation, but also our transportation system, public service and the whole country as whole.

For you anything and everything is about aviation. If the aviation is bad the rest of the country and its people is just bad. If it not done your way, than it must be wrong.
 
B747-4U3
Posts: 617
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2002 8:08 am

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:37 pm

Quoting Aidan (Reply 87):
For you anything and everything is about aviation. If the aviation is bad the rest of the country and its people is just bad. If it not done your way, than it must be wrong.

You seem to be missing the point. HB-IWC was simply giving some background thoughts about the state of affairs in Indonesia, and how this pertains to the search and rescue operation here. Essentially, that the corruption found in the government is affecting the search for the plane and the Indonesian aviation industry as a whole.

He was NOT saying; because Adam Air is incapable of keeping its aircraft in airworthy condition all Indonesian people are bad.

As for the Dukun, it seems to me like the search and rescue team are running out of leads, so they are now clutching at straws in the hope that they will somehow find the plane. The use of Dukuns seems to me to be a lot like "masuk angin". Whenever I have to go to a doctor here, it doesn't matter what is wrong with me, I am always diagnosed with "masuk angin". I guess it is the Indonesian way of saying, "I don't really know what is wrong with you".
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15614
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:58 am

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 78):
Well, there are only 2 possibilities... and after being told on how those witnesses stated the details of the site, the possibilities are:
1. Yes it was found. They shot the 12 survivors and decided to hush the whole thing up.
2. No it was not found. The whole thing was a hoax to throw everyone off and trigger off mass speculation of the locations to prevent the aircraft being found with no survivors.

Problem with #1, there are now hundreds if not thousands of non-military, non-police and non-SAR people in the area... shutting them up would be quite an expensive proposition, unless someone issues a list of recently missing persons numbering the hundreds or thousands within the next 6 months!

Problem with #2, then what if someone DOES find it? The publicity surrounding the mess is already overwhelming. Support for the 102 families are growing.

But then again, those are just conspiracy theories... No one knows where the plane is.

With all of the comments here about this missing aircraft and related recent past incidents with Adam Air, and the discussions of the culture of corruption and incompetency of the government and people of Indonesia, this may be the critical tipping of balance by it's citizens and by other countries to bring about major changes. I do not deny the serious levels of corruption and incompetency especially in my home country, the USA, but there still seems to be something beyond the pale in Indonesia.
This tragedy cannot be contained to within Indonesia and be treated as "TII". An American made aircraft was involved, perhaps USA and non-Indonesian citizens too, so this cannot be kept hidden from non-Indonesian parties. This tragedy many also finally move investors, especially from the EC, the USA and Japan, to deal with the corruption and incompetency of the Indonesian government as exemplified with the operation and safety of their airlines that one cannot trust this government, that there is no good faith in business dealings, and they cannot trust their citizen's safety there.
If this tragedy does force needed changes in Indonesia it could be at least a positive benefit from it.
 
nwafflyer
Posts: 888
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2004 9:29 am

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:30 am

There are Americans onboard - I believe 3 people from Oregon
 
ATCGOD
Posts: 519
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:24 am

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:27 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 56):
Of course the US NAVY should help find the wreckage ... Why would this even be a issue for 300 million Americans?

What? Uhhh...because they pay for it.  Yeah sure

Quoting Electech6299 (Reply 60):
The US Navy doesn't operate for free, it is paid for at taxpayer expense. International aid normally comes with reimbursement, or it is paid for by Congressional action as an aid package. If 300 million Americans don't want to foot the bill, their Congressmen are not going to write an aid package without a compelling reason to do so. Your compelling reason is....???

Thank you for replying to this point before I could. It's truly a very sad and tragic event but not our government's problem. Let this be worked out by whatever government is responsible for the oversight of this.

I think it's simply amazing that if this aircraft did crash one way or another there was no smoke, debris floating on water, or anything else like this reported. It seems this aircraft simply disappeared. All aircraft accidents that I know of that crashed into the water left some debris on the surface and usually some burning fuel which led to smoke. Simply amazing.
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4110
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:44 am

Quoting Aidan (Reply 87):
HB-IWC, just so we clear on why I call you "shallow", but first apologize to forum member as this may not have anything to do with aviation.

For you anything and everything is about aviation. If the aviation is bad the rest of the country and its people is just bad. If it not done your way, than it must be wrong.

Please go back and read and understand my previous posts. I have merely been trying to give an overall idea in what kind of general environment the country's aviation is operating. The state of corruption and the lack of adequate human resources reflects on the current state of affairs in the airline industry, just as it impacts so many other aspects of daily life in Indonesia, be that the sorry state of the country's infrastructure or the blatant lack of financial resources for its educational system. I have absolutely no issues with your calling me shallow, but please do it for the right reasons, so go back, and read my contributions in this and other threads.

Your position in this matter seems to be ambiguous at best. On the one hand, you seem to agree that the entire circus that has been unfolding over the past week is nothing more than a sour joke, albeit at the expense of unbelievable suffering on the part of the families involved. Yet, at the same time, you feel it necessary to come out at me, shooting the messenger rather than the message. You also seem to be hinting that there is no correlation between the malpractices in the airline industry and what is happening in other parts of society. If that is the case then you are not only shortsighted and gullible but also in complete denial about what is happening out there. May I suggest you a subscription to any quality local newspaper or a weekly such as Tempo?

The issues which I and others have been posting pertaining to the malfeasances in the airline industry are but the top of the iceberg and are very often restricted to these scandals we can safely write about without the risk of being persecuted. Believe me or not, but some of the practices in this industry are more rotten than anything I have witnessed in my career, which has taken me to countries in Africa the average Indonesian ordinarily would think of as ratholes. I hear similar stories from fellow expatriates who are working in completely different industries, and the newspapers are riddled with stories about corporate graft and blatant failures all over the country.

Do you really believe that these stories are all part of a worldwide conspiracy and that we are all out to bring down your government and recolonize your country? Because that is what some of your senior government and military people regularly seem to be hinting at when it's once again time to rally the masses at home.

Back to aviation now. A very small percentage of the Indonesian population has access to air travel, and only a fraction of those finds it within its financial means to embark on international air travel - courtesy of the Indonesian government which finds it safer to keep its citizens at home and therefore slaps a tax of more than USD 100 on all those renegades who dare to exit this country. Yet those who nevertheless do will, at some point or the other, be confronted with Singapore's Changi International Airport, that veritable gem of transportation efficiency located at a mere 1 hour and 15 minutes of jetting - you can even fly Adam Air, if you are of the foolhardy kind - from Jakarta's Soekarno Hatta International Airport.

Have you ever asked yourself what is the reason for the shabby state of affairs at CGK? Have you ever used the public bathrooms at Changi and then repeated that experience at Soekarno Hatta? Or what about the organization of a range of public transportation options at Jakarta's main airport. Do you have any idea how welcome a tourist on his first visit to this country must feel when greeted by a sea of touts and other assorted riff raff, all claiming to be official airport representatives, but only intent on ripping of the innocent freshman, while police is standing by idly? Let's not even begin to discuss that quagmire of trying to catch a taxi into town from CGK. The list goes on. Now, I could repeat this comparison with airports in Kuala Lumpur, Hongkong and even Bangkok, despite all its current deficiencies.

Have you ever asked yourself the question as to the reason the Indonesian authorities are seemingly incapable of getting their act together in the organization of the country's network of international and domestic airports, whereas other countries, often at spitting distance, seem to be doing a marvelous job and are beating top notch airports in Europe and North America hands down.

Let's now move to the situation airlines, which are using these airport facilities have to face. Did you know that the overall cost of using airport facilities here in Jakarta, through a myriad of legal and not so legal fees, are often outstripping similar costs at Kuala Lumpur or Singapore?

Sure enough, the state owned airport operators in Indonesia, are some of the most cash rich companies around, and are customarily used by unscrupulous politicians for the furthering of their personal goals. But do you really believe that the beleaguered air passenger should pay for this?

Finally, have you ever asked yourself why Indonesia's flag carrier Garuda finds itself in the sorry state it is currently in? As a matter of fact, with the ever dwindling network of international destinations, which no longer includes any airports in Europe or North America, I fear that pretty soon there will be nothing much left that is still worthy of the term flag carrier. At the same time, Singapore Airlines, its home base at a mere arm's length of that of Garuda, turns out to be one of the most successful airlines ever and is hauling away almost 3 times as much international traffic from Indonesian than the country's sole flag carrier.

Why is it that Singapore, to name just one, is so successful where Indonesia seems to be failing miserably over and over again? Given the country's wealth in natural resources and a population of over 200 million, don't you think we could reasonably expect better? Does a different set of logics and rules, of which the rest of the world has never heard anything before, apply only here?

I, for one don't believe so, and I am absolutely convinced that this country, in all its aspects, could perform just as well as anybody else if given the right management. Yet the lackluster behavior of the Indonesian populace in the face of this ever worsening situation will preclude any imminent improvement. And as long as people like yourself keep on believing that the real evil is to be found outside rather than inside the country, you should be prepared for more adversity to come. So go ahead, and keep on shooting on the messenger, but please stop complaining that the outside world does not look up to your country as it does to other countries in the region, because it is a situation of your own making.
 
zenarcade
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:08 am

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:29 am

So the plane still has not been found and it has been what six days now?

What are the chances of never finding this aircraft, either based on location or governments just giving up? Has an airliner ever gone completely missing before (and never found)?

Adam
If a plane falls on the tarmac and no one is there, does it make any sound? - Starlionblue
 
hmmmm...
Posts: 1967
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 8:32 am

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:24 am

Quoting Zenarcade (Reply 93):
Has an airliner ever gone completely missing before (and never found)?

Not in the modern jet era. There was an airline flight that went missing in 1947 over the Andes and was not discovered for 50 years. But that is understandable, since it was buried in snow and ice and was almost impossible to get up there to search.

There was also a Lockheed Constellation that went missing over the Phillipines in 1962 for which wreckage was never found, but it is assumed to have crash landed into the ocean and probably sank mostly intact.

That is about it. But to my knowledge, no jet airliner has ever gone missing and never been found.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
aidan
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:40 pm

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:13 am

HB-IWC, no need for a lengthy explanation.

My point is simple. Please stop the name calling, bashing, and the mockery.

As I said several time already, you and most of the folks here know a lot more than I do about Indonesiass aviation states. I do learn a lot from your post and others in this forum. And I thank you for that. But if you start bashing us and label us "Banana Republic", mock our culture, than it just blur to me what your intention really are.

If you bash Agung Laksono, Hatta Rajasa, Adam's owner, fine by me. But don't bash the entire country and call us "Banana Republic"!

If you want to mock the corrupt culture, the "jam karet" culture, the "Asal Bapak Senang" culture, fine by me. It is a culture that need to be wiped out from Indonesia for sure. But don't mock the traditional culture and traditional believe of Indonesia people that in this situation may ease their pain during this horrible situation.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 92):
Do you really believe that these stories are all part of a worldwide conspiracy and that we are all out to bring down your government and recolonize your country? Because that is what some of your senior government and military people regularly seem to be hinting at when it's once again time to rally the masses at home.

I've said what I want to say, and no, I do not believe there is international conspiracy against Indonesia. Just another example of your ignorant believe that any Indonesian believe that there is a conspiracy against our country where the foreigners want to take all of our oil and replace the majority religion here, bring down the government and recolonize our country.
 
nwafflyer
Posts: 888
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2004 9:29 am

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:25 am

Please -- please, let us get back to the issue at hand here -- I really don't think anyone meant to insult Indonesia terribly, nor make fun of the Indonesian beliefs. For those of us who are from the US, or from Europe, we are trying to find out what happened to the plane, and the Indonesian government does not seem to give out 'normal' information.

The feedback that we get is that Indonesia is a 'banana republic' or a 'third world country' fine, so be it. But the real issue at hand is the plane, the airline, Adam Air, and the situation for Indonesian Aviation in general. Is Indonesia searching effectively for the plane? Are they calling in outside resources as needed? Is there any explanation for the original 'find' of the crash with 12 survivors?

What was the source for the original crash? We need more information here, not name calling
 
FoxBravo
Posts: 2771
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:34 pm

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:46 am

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 94):
But to my knowledge, no jet airliner has ever gone missing and never been found.

A Varig 707 freighter disappeared after takeoff from Tokyo in 1979. See https://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/2978549/
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
User avatar
Siren
Posts: 775
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:50 am

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:17 am

FoxBravo beat me to it...

[Edited 2007-01-08 02:18:26]
 
hmmmm...
Posts: 1967
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 8:32 am

RE: Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2

Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:12 am

I wasn't aware of the Varig flight. I guess because it was a freighter jet and not a passenger flight, history has forgotten it.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos