N766UA
Posts: 8263
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 1999 3:50 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:46 am

To heck with that, I bust my ass every day so people can get from A to B with all their stuff. The least the company can do is give me an open F seat, god knows they certainly don't show me much thanks in my paycheck. Front line employees take alot of crap from customers. If a seat is open and there isn't anyone paying extra for it, the hard working employees of the company should get it.
 
L1011Lover
Posts: 736
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:16 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:49 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 43):
So what? If your pay is that low, change industries.

Well and if you desire our perks so much, then why don´t you just change industries??? Apply with an airline! Nobody forced you to work in the industry you do!

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 43):
It's offensive to airline customers flying in Y to see airline employees who paid far less get bumped up to F.

No, it´s not! And now stop whining!

Best regards

L1011Lover
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:51 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:58 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 43):
Oh I do know what I'm talking about. I said SHOULD pay tax. Regardless of what the IRS' most recent ruling was, you are getting a taxable benefit when riding in F without paying tax on it....that, will not last long.

Yes, the hell, we DO pay for it. It appears on our pay statement. First is listed Earnings, then is listed Imputed Earnings.

This increases our annual taxable income.

So yes, we do pay taxes on it.

If you don't work for an airline, maybe you've never heard of it. But that's how it works.

You are incorrect in your assertion we are receiving an "tax-free" perk. Our 401K's are deferred income. Our health insurance premiums are pre-tax. But travel is taxed.

Really.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
charlienorth
Posts: 1069
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:24 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:03 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 50):
To heck with that, I bust my ass every day so people can get from A to B with all their stuff. The least the company can do is give me an open F seat, god knows they certainly don't show me much thanks in my paycheck. Front line employees take alot of crap from customers. If a seat is open and there isn't anyone paying extra for it, the hard working employees of the company should get it.

 checkmark 
A small reward for changing an IDG in quick time so our customers can get to their destination on time,or loading a pit on a '73 on a hot day,or serving meals and drinks accross the Pacific,or flying an approach to landing in a snowstorm,or helping a pax with a complicated reroute,and just managing it all.If you resent the benefit you are more than welcome to apply,I'll put in a good word for you Wink
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
EWRCabincrew
Posts: 4314
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 2:37 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:20 am

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 47):
Well maybe some of the non-airline employees around here wanna share any information about the benefits they get from the industries they´re working in.

I´d be very interested in hearing and learning more about them.

L1011, the silence is deafening.

Eventhough this is an aviation forum, the question was asked, so where are the answers? It would be nice to make a comparison as to what non-aviation employees get as perks/benefits for being in their industry.
You can't cure stupid
 
charlienorth
Posts: 1069
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:24 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:23 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 54):
Eventhough this is an aviation forum, the question was asked, so where are the answers? It would be nice to make a comparison as to what non-aviation employees get as perks/benefits for being in their industry.

Funny thing is I don't resent "perks" anyone else gets,and I think most airline folk agree.
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
mohavewolfpup
Posts: 129
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:52 pm

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:28 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 54):
Eventhough this is an aviation forum, the question was asked, so where are the answers? It would be nice to make a comparison as to what non-aviation employees get as perks/benefits for being in their industry.

I worked for petsmart for a while, my "benefit" was a rip roaring 15% off anything in the store (and being the one to set up the planograms) I know what a sham it was. I rarely got the 15% off also, even though I provided my employee number.

for example: we sold a automatic litter box for about $150 or so, the same type that I could go to walmart and get for about $70 or less (obviously no employee discount). yeah, that 15% off really makes me feel like a valued employee.....

the 15% really doesn't feel like a benefit when you are getting that discount on top of a inflated markup.

if airline employees want to fly business class or in the cattle section, give them the friggin ticket and leave them alone! they earned it!

signed,

one underpaid and under appreciated retail worker who feels the pain of a employee that busts their ass just as much as I did
 
goCOgo
Posts: 707
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 11:24 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:36 am

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 15):
Just go work for an airline, and you will get pass rider benefits as part of your compensation package.

Well, I weigh over 250 lb, so flight attendant is out, I don't have the money for flight training, so pilot is out, I have back pain when moving heavy objects, so baggage handler is out, and I can't stand dealing with people, so CSA is out. I suppose I could train to be a mechanic, but don't know how to even go about it (plus, it would probably be a waste of my Civil Engineering degree), so I'm not sure where I'd fit into an airline. If you have any suggestions, I'd listen

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 22):
But the average non rev is paying for the flight and even more for being in first.

Huh? Isn't non rev short for "non revenue" i.e. the airline gets NO money, so how do they pay?

My point is, yeah, you should get free air travel as compensation, but why does it have to be first class travel. Can't us riff raff, that do supply significant revenue for the airline, get at least a shot at a free upgrade every once in a while. (And unlike what many of you believe, those of us who don't work in the airline industry are not all rich and can afford first class tickets.

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 47):
Well maybe some of the non-airline employees around here wanna share any information about the benefits they get from the industries they´re working in.

Civil Engineer for a water department in a major US city: I get medical, dental, and vision for $25 a month and tax free public transportation passes. That's about it as far as "perks." Few opportunities for travel, no company car, no other big perks. Not even a Christmas/Holiday/End of Year bonus. Oh, yeah, and no one has got a raise in 3 years.
"Why you fly is your business, how you fly is ours"
 
EWRCabincrew
Posts: 4314
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 2:37 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:36 am

Quoting Charlienorth (Reply 55):
Funny thing is I don't resent "perks" anyone else gets,and I think most airline folk agree.

My post wasn't meant as resentment towards others or for others to have resentment. It was purely meant to get a little knowledge of what non-airline a.netters get as perks for their job. I had said it would be nice to make a comparison. I actually phrased it politely, too.

No jabs at others were intended. This is an aviation forum and pretty much all chat/talk/posts/bitching is related to this industry. We rarely discuss other professions and industries. I am just really curious as to what others get for doing the job they do, perk/benefit wise.

That's all.  Smile
You can't cure stupid
 
United767
Posts: 349
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:16 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:41 am

Quoting Bofredrik (Thread starter):
This seems to be a never ending discussion among airline staff but i say just one thing: Customers first! If there is empty seats in Business- or First-class (for airlines that still have F-class), always upgrade paying customers first! NEVER alow staff to use a empty seat if a paying customer can have it. I can not understand that some people do not agree with this "policy".

Deal with it. Enough said.
I wish UA flew mainline to MYR, that way you wouldn't be stuck in a smelly Saturn for 12 hours.
 
charlienorth
Posts: 1069
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:24 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:41 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 58):
I actually phrased it politely, too

You definitely did.....wasn't poking at anyone either,would like to hear from others too,probably won't take that part time job at petsmart to get that new dog water purifier  Wink
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
fspilot747
Posts: 3455
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 1999 2:58 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:43 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 30):
The same should apply to airline staff. If an airline employee flying non-rev wants an upgrade, then pay for it, with miles or with the frequent-flyer status.

The airline doesn't lose anything by allowing employees the benefit of a free upgrade. It's called a perk, and it keeps employees happy. If anything, it's a gain.

Maybe CEO bonuses shouldn't be so freaking huge even when they run airlines into the ground.

Or maybe you should stop being jealous? Or bitter about perks you wish you had?

I'd respond to you, Bofrederick, but since you neglected to keep up with your own thread, we don't know exactly what you have a problem with. You think customers should just get free upgrades instead of employees?

[Edited 2007-01-08 02:51:04]
 
EWRCabincrew
Posts: 4314
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 2:37 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:45 am

Quoting Charlienorth (Reply 60):
won't take that part time job at petsmart to get that new dog water purifier

Damn, Pickles will have to drink from the porcelain bowl, now.
You can't cure stupid
 
goCOgo
Posts: 707
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 11:24 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:53 am

Quoting FSPilot747 (Reply 61):
The airline doesn't lose anything by allowing employees the benefit of a free upgrade.

What does the airline lose giving a Y class pax an upgrade, then?

Quoting Charlienorth (Reply 60):
You definitely did.....wasn't poking at anyone either,would like to hear from others too,probably won't take that part time job at petsmart to get that new dog water purifier

This might make an interesting topic for discussion in this thread. Maybe then you can see that free travel, even if limited to Y class, is a great perk, especially compared to what many of the rest of us get.
"Why you fly is your business, how you fly is ours"
 
United767
Posts: 349
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:16 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:57 am

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 63):
What does the airline lose giving a Y class pax an upgrade, then?

Why do Y passengers who paid rock bottom wages for their ticket expect a F upgrade?
I wish UA flew mainline to MYR, that way you wouldn't be stuck in a smelly Saturn for 12 hours.
 
L1011Lover
Posts: 736
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:16 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:06 am

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 57):
Civil Engineer for a water department in a major US city: I get medical, dental, and vision for $25 a month and tax free public transportation passes. That's about it as far as "perks." Few opportunities for travel, no company car, no other big perks. Not even a Christmas/Holiday/End of Year bonus. Oh, yeah, and no one has got a raise in 3 years.

Well, then you probably picked a not so "generous" career! But that is your problem, not ours.

And that you can´t apply to certain airline jobs while don´t want to apply for other jobs in the industry isn´t our problem either.

Heck, I like it that I can turn the tables now!!! How many times have I read "why don´t you just find another job all you airline employees, if you don´t like the way your airline treats or compensates you"

Now is the time for us airline employees to fight you back with your own arguments!

If you like our perks so much and find it so desirable, okay then just quit your job and get on with an airline. But if you for any reason can´t or don´t want to then stop complaining and leave us and our hard earned benefits alone!!!

Best regards

L1011Lover
 
goCOgo
Posts: 707
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 11:24 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:06 am

Quoting United767 (Reply 64):

Why do Y passengers who paid rock bottom wages for their ticket expect a F upgrade?

Well, first, I don't "expect" an upgrade. But once would be nice.

So, I'll answer your question with a question: Why do airline employees who paid little to nothing for their ticket expect a F seat?
"Why you fly is your business, how you fly is ours"
 
DL787932ER
Posts: 575
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:27 pm

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:07 am

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 57):

Well, I weigh over 250 lb, so flight attendant is out, I don't have the money for flight training, so pilot is out, I have back pain when moving heavy objects, so baggage handler is out, and I can't stand dealing with people, so CSA is out. I suppose I could train to be a mechanic, but don't know how to even go about it (plus, it would probably be a waste of my Civil Engineering degree), so I'm not sure where I'd fit into an airline. If you have any suggestions, I'd listen

Let's see. You could be a flight dispatcher, filing flight plans, resolving enroute issues in coordination with the flight crew, etc. There are a few of 'em who post here who I'm sure could fill you in on the requirements and career path, if you were interested. While being a line mechanic might not be your calling, you could look into technical operations at a larger carrier. There's certainly plenty of work there that requires a degreed engineer (do you have your P.E. license? You might need an advanced degree in something aeronautical as well.) Most airlines (like any other large company) have large IT departments to support their operational and sales computer infrastructure; if your degree came with a side of computer knowledge you could investigate working in an airline IT department. And you could always pursue an MBA and work in finance, accounting, or some other "headquarters" type position.

There are lots of airline jobs that aren't the standard pilot-flight attendant-CSA-ramper positions people think of. If you have a serious interest in pursuing a career in aviation, start a new thread and you'll get lots of ideas based on your current education, experience, and goals. The point I was making is that if you do pursue any of those options, you will most likely be paid less than someone with the same education and experience working outside the field of aviation. A big part of the reason people are willing to take those jobs for decreased compensation is because of the increase in non-monetary compensation - i.e. travel benefits. And if you chose to do so, I'll bet you would be defending the benefits that you received as a condition of your accepting that job.

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 57):
Can't us riff raff, that do supply significant revenue for the airline, get at least a shot at a free upgrade every once in a while.

Of course. There is only one way to ensure that you sit in F, and that is to book an F ticket. That rule applies to employees, pass riders, elite flyers, and everyone else. Beyond that, there is only a "chance" - and that chance applies to people who pay for standby upgrades, frequent flyers with upgrade coupons, elite frequent flyers, full-fare coach passengers, and "everyone else", roughly in that order. There's always the chance that someone on a T fare will luck out and score an operational upgrade, but it is unlikely. In the meantime, employees who choose to work in the industry and accept lower wages in exchange for a chance (note again that it is never guaranteed) to standby for a premium cabin when they travel will continue to get that benefit, and you and other non-elites on restricted fares will still get the seat you paid for.
F L Y D E L T A J E T S
 
cairo
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:41 pm

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:08 am

Remember that for a lot of people, the flight benefits don't come close to making up the lower salary they earn versus life in another industry. A lot of people these days are making $10/hour or less and can't afford to travel even with the pass priveleges.

Of course, a lot of people can make it work, but the filght privileges aren't quite the nonstop party the general public imagines.

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 14):
Flight benefits are part of the compensation package of airline employees.

True and really the most important argument in favor of allowing employees to fly in premium cabins is because without the travel benefits, presumably the airlines would have to pay more for employees in payroll.

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 15):
What justification is there for giving a customer (who has not paid for or qualified via status for an upgrade) a free product that he or she did not pay for?

Just to play devil's advocate, I say the justification is that it acts as a little bit of free advertising or good-will that may create a more loyal customer.

Most of us would perhaps frequent a bar more where we got a free drink now and then versus one where they never gave away a free shot even to great customers.

BTW, I myself rarely use my flight benefits because the routes I want to fly are so popular and my time so limited, that I can't risk getting bumped. Most of my benefits go to younger family members who can be very flexibile in their flying or don't mind middle seats on longhaul transoceanic flights.

Cairo
 
charlienorth
Posts: 1069
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:24 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:08 am

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 63):
This might make an interesting topic for discussion in this thread. Maybe then you can see that free travel, even if limited to Y class, is a great perk, especially compared to what many of the rest of us get.

OK..our downside is getting left behind,watching flight after flight depart,not griping,it's revenue,figuring out with the wife what we'll do if only one gets called,if there is a maintenance or weather delay we're on our own,again not griping,just pointing out some downsides...also it is definitely not free.....like I said if you want to put up with I listed in post 53 you are more than welcome to apply.
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
United767
Posts: 349
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:16 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:11 am

As stated about 40 times above, we bust our humps doing our job, and it is nothing but a "perk". Plus We only get it 1 out of every 10 flights if were lucky because it normally is full of top travelers and such. And like you, we on't expect it. it is a nice surprise when we do get it.
I wish UA flew mainline to MYR, that way you wouldn't be stuck in a smelly Saturn for 12 hours.
 
DL787932ER
Posts: 575
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:27 pm

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:13 am

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 66):
Why do airline employees who paid little to nothing for their ticket expect a F seat?

No pass rider expects an F seat; the premium cabin is never expected or guaranteed. Pass riders get a seat only after all revenue passengers who may upgrade have been accomodated. In other words, if there were no pass riders on the flight, that F seat would go empty, and you would still be in the Y seat you paid for. The airline isn't going to give you their premium product for free because you're a nice guy - if you don't qualify for it, pay for it, or earn it by being an employee or pass rider, you won't get it.
F L Y D E L T A J E T S
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:51 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:13 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 54):
It would be nice to make a comparison as to what non-aviation employees get as perks/benefits for being in their industry.

EDS employees on the SABRE account get travel benefits on AA.

Some Servisair employees,which is a ground services company, get travel benefits from several carriers.

There are others that get travel perks.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
L1011Lover
Posts: 736
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:16 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:15 am

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 57):
My point is, yeah, you should get free air travel as compensation, but why does it have to be first class travel.

And why should it not be??? Just because JoeAverage wants to sit there after paying a chaep coach fare?

Give me one good reason why a loyal employee shouldn´t be allowed to ride up front when the seat would go empty anyway! We are part of this company, we give our lifeblood to it and work hard!

And like I said in my very first respond to this thread, if you pay for a BMW 3 series, you drive home in a BMW 3 series and not a 5 or 7 series. However a loyal BMW employee might be able to take home a BMW 7 series for the price of a 3 series. It´s called perks, benefits... such is life!

Best regards

L1011Lover
 
DL787932ER
Posts: 575
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:27 pm

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:20 am

Quoting Cairo (Reply 68):
Most of us would perhaps frequent a bar more where we got a free drink now and then versus one where they never gave away a free shot even to great customers.

I agree, and so do the airlines. In fact, they have actual guidelines for such "free drinks"; they are the frequent flyer programs, and the rules that tell you how often you have to "visit the bar" to get a certain number of "free drinks" are spelled out explicitly. Anyone - even an employee - can be an elite FF on paid tickets, and can be in a position to earn upgrades ahead of any nonrev pass rider.

But just like a bar wouldn't make money if it randomly gave out free drinks to customers who only came in once a year, airlines give their upgrades out to the people who have met the criteria for being "good customers". You can reach silver elite level on most airlines for a couple thousand dollars in tickets - less than the price of a single international J ticket - and qualify for upgrades. If you're spending less than that on air travel in a given year, you probably are not the loyal, high-value customer who is entitled to free upgrades that you think you are.

[Edited 2007-01-08 03:22:14]
F L Y D E L T A J E T S
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15775
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RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:23 am

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 73):
Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 57):
My point is, yeah, you should get free air travel as compensation, but why does it have to be first class travel.

And why should it not be??? Just because JoeAverage wants to sit there after paying a chaep coach fare?

"JoeAverage" is your customer, and is the reason you even have a job. He is also likely paying more for the flight than you are as a non-rev or ID90. He deserves the upgrade more than you.

Show a little respect for your real boss aka the customer.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
dxBrian
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 1:57 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:25 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 30):
The same should apply to airline staff. If an airline employee flying non-rev wants an upgrade, then pay for it, with miles or with the frequent-flyer status.

What makes you think airline employees don't pay fees for non-rev travel? Different airlines have different rules, but there is always some fee charged to fly on a different airline than the one you are employed by. There are ID90s, ID75s, ID50s, ZED fares and others. We're subject to various other fees as well.

I can only speak for myself, as a former employee of Continental Micronesia, a subsidiary of Continental Airlines. We were allowed a certain number of vacation passes per year, which could be used for either Y or J seats. After using all your vacation passes, we had to pay x dollars for a Y seat and a higher amount for J class seats. I would assume the other airlines have similar policies.
 
L1011Lover
Posts: 736
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:16 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:34 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 75):
"JoeAverage" is your customer, and is the reason you even have a job. He is also likely paying more for the flight than you are as a non-rev or ID90. He deserves the upgrade more than you.

Show a little respect for your real boss aka the customer.

Okay, just try it... go to a cardealer, buy a BMW 325 series and then try to persuade the dealer to drive away in a BMW 725 and use the same argument... "I´m your customer... blablabla... why was your employee offered a 7 series for the price of a 3 series while I was not!!!"

I tell you they will have you escorted from the roperty!

A full paying customer desreves the first class seat, if there is no full paying customer who claims the seat the loyal employee deserves it more than "JoeAverage"!!! Again, it´s called perks!!! It´s even in the contract that we get free/discounted travel and for some people one good reason to start working with an airline!!!

Like it or not, it´s a well deserved perk!!!

What on earth makes you believe that you´re in for a free upgrade, just so! What makes you believe you should get more than what you paid for??? Everything has it´s price. If you want to fly up front go ahead and buy yourself a ticket in the class you want. Airlines offer different products so the customer can make up his mind and choose his desired product, or the product he can afford! For us as employees, it´s a benefit and still a goodwill if our company puts us up front with a regular coach ID ticket.

If you say that JoeAverage deserves it more than me to sit up front, then please tell me which one of the JoeAverages in the back should be moved up front and for godsake for what reason???

Best regards

L1011Lover

[Edited 2007-01-08 03:40:59]
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:51 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:39 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 75):
He is also likely paying more for the flight than you are as a non-rev or ID90. He deserves the upgrade more than you.

The customer ALWAYS has the option of PAYING THE FARE for F or C. It can be done at the gate just prior to departure.

If we give away ALL of our premium product, of which we give away more than 75% right now in the form form of frequent flyer upgrades, it will take away the mystique and ambiance that one is supposed to experience in the front cabin.

I can't believe you don't understand why employees go up there ahead of NON-PAYING customers. Running and airline is like running a huge theatre production. There are literally 100's of individuals behind the scenes that are required to make the plane actually go. The better we frontline personnel do, the less aware of the back of the house employees you are. That's a major goal for any airline. We, the employees, ARE the service part of the product that you put so many demands upon. We should be treated to that kind of treatment from time to time ourselves.

Get over your stuffy self.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
VC10DC10
Posts: 657
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:56 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:42 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 80):
I can't believe you don't understand why employees go up there ahead of NON-PAYING customers.

Typical customer getting unexpected free upgrade to F: charge on VISA $300 (for original ticket)
Nonrevving airline employee getting free ride in F: charge on VISA $0

Somehow I think the airline is doing better upgrading the "NON-PAYING customers" than giving free F rides to its whiny employees. But then, I was never very good at math. (Just better than my friend who's now an accountant at UA...)  smile 
 
CTHEWORLD
Posts: 463
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 5:27 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:48 am

Quoting Shamrock_747 (Reply 16):
in most cases staff will be upgraded.

It isn't even an upgrade, it is take whatever seat is available, thus it is called Space Available travel, if the space is there, first, business, center seat in coach, get on and go, it isn't like airlines are holding seats for employees, they are getting them on, last minute, behind all revenue passengers, in to the seats they can. If a revenue pax wants a particular seat, pay for it and get it guaranteed.
 
L1011Lover
Posts: 736
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:16 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:49 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 75):
Show a little respect for your real boss aka the customer.

I show a lot respect to our customers while offering them superior service.

But respect has nothing to do with moving them up front for nothing!

Plase don´t tell me I have to show respect to our customers, becuase that will make me really MAD!!! You have absolutely no idea about the quality of work and service I deliver to my airline and my customers!!!

You should respect the fact that slavery has been abolished a long time ago and workers get compensated for their work and receive certain benefits and perks from their jobs... one of ours is free/discounted travel with the goodwill of our airline to move us upfront if space is available!

Best regards

L1011Lover

[Edited 2007-01-08 04:01:30]
 
VC10DC10
Posts: 657
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:56 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:56 am

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 83):
Bust respect has nothing to do with moving them up front for nothing!

Overlooking the potentially humorous aspects of your remark, I would contest this statement very strongly. If you are in the customer service business (and I think we can all agree that if an airline isn't, then it should get into the game very quickly) then you should always put the customer first. Thus, if you have 18 F seats (16 occupied by customers of one kind or another), 150 Y seats (all full), and two airline employees trying to nonrev, then 2 Y pax should be upgraded for free and their seats in steerage given over to the deadweight of employees. (Incidentally, airlines should make their employees lose some poundage... probably save $$$ in fuel!) I don't care how you select the Y pax for an upgrade: darts at the manifest on the wall, # of frequent flyer segments that year, whatever. The point is that the customers must come first.
 
L1011Lover
Posts: 736
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:16 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:59 am

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 81):
Typical customer getting unexpected free upgrade to F: charge on VISA $300 (for original ticket)
Nonrevving airline employee getting free ride in F: charge on VISA $0

Somehow I think the airline is doing better upgrading the "NON-PAYING customers" than giving free F rides to its whiny employees.

NONSENSE!!!

The airline doesn´t lose a cent from putting its employee up front.

They wouldn´t lose a cent from putting the customer up front either, but at the same time they would not make any more money from putting him there. So why should they???

So how come you think the airline is doing better with putting the customer up there???
 confused   confused   confused 
 
L1011Lover
Posts: 736
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:16 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:04 pm

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 85):
The point is that the customers must come first.

Go ahead... go to the BMW dealer like I suggested a few times before. Try to persuade them with the same nonsense!!!

You´ll be kicked off the property!

You as a customer get what you paid for! The employee gets a little more... such is life! Just get over it!

It would be totally unfair to just move 2 people up front! What makes you people believe that it´s okay to stael from the airlines???!!!

[Edited 2007-01-08 04:07:09]
 
DL787932ER
Posts: 575
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:27 pm

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:46 pm

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 91):

Employees in any industry are willing to do their jobs in exchange for certain compensation. This compensation could be money (your paycheck), health insurance, pensions, or other benefits (like nonrev travel for airline employees). If airline employees lose some part of their compensation (like a seat in a premium cabin if any are left over after all qualifying revenue passengers are accomodated), it will have to be made up in other ways that cost the airline money (like increased wages). Airlines can't and won't absorb such costs, so they would have to be covered by increased ticket prices.

So: how much extra are you willing to pay per ticket (in dollars or in a percentage) to keep pass riders out of F/J? And what makes you so spiteful that you would pay to keep someone else from receiving a certain benefit that you yourself have not earned?
F L Y D E L T A J E T S
 
VC10DC10
Posts: 657
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:56 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:51 pm

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 99):
This compensation could be money (your paycheck), health insurance, pensions, or other benefits (like nonrev travel for airline employees).

And I'm sure you all pay tax on it, right? (Yes, I know, we don't pay tax on healh insurance, etc., but I suggest it would be fairer all around if employers paid more and employees looked after their own insurance & retirement needs. The "system," if you will, seems weighted against employers and businesses these days.)
 
style
Posts: 208
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:40 pm

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:54 pm

Quoting Bofredrik (Thread starter):
NEVER alow staff to use a empty seat if a paying customer can have it.

Can have it based on what? Person pays for a coach seat and gets a coach seat. The employee works for the airline and that is his PERK. Some classes of service are not given complimentary upgrades.

Im sure you're one of those jokers who thinks everything premium should be free in life.

'I just bought a Ford but why dont you give me the Benz, its still in the lot, nobody bought it yet.'
 
User avatar
calpsafltskeds
Posts: 3089
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:29 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:06 pm

Wow, this thread is getting nasty.

It seems that some are upset that free upgrades to F/C are not given to those who pay for Y while staff are upgraded. Maybe if the IRS taxed the passenger the difference from the price paid to the price of the upgraded service, no one would care to hassle airline staff for sitting in F/C.

The fact that airline employees, retirees, parents AND frequent flyers do not have to pay IRS taxes on upgrades and "free" flights is a benefit that employees and frequent flyers both enjoy. If you want to penalize employees, then shouldn't frequent flyers be penalized if they accept an upgrade or a free flight?

You can't have it one way and not the other, regardless of what side you're on.

Personally, I travel on passes that I do have to pay taxes on as my wife took an early out and the IRS found a way to tax us. It sucks, but the service fees and taxes are less than paying for tickets and part of the agreement to take the early-out. If I want to hope to fly F/C, it costs more and the taxes are higher so we fly Y and haven't been upgraded in 10 years. We're just happy to get on the flights, and sometimes it takes hours or days to do that.

[Edited 2007-01-08 06:07:28]
 
VC10DC10
Posts: 657
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:56 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:09 pm

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 120):

You can't have it one way and not the other, regardless of what side you're on.

I certainly see your point.

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 120):
It sucks, but the service fees and taxes are less than paying for tickets and part of the agreement to take the early-out.

What surprises me is that you stand for this and don't switch to another airline and use it just like any other customer.
 
HPAEAA
Posts: 1138
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 7:24 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:24 pm

As long as it's elites then employee's I'm fine with it... if I were to see a fa or someone up there when I was on the upgrade list, I might be a little mad... ahh well... just my .02
1.4mm and counting...
 
mjlhou
Posts: 149
Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:23 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:27 pm

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 120):
Wow, this thread is getting nasty.

 checkmark 

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 120):
If I want to hope to fly F/C, it costs more and the taxes are higher so we fly Y and haven't been upgraded in 10 years. We're just happy to get on the flights, and sometimes it takes hours or days to do that.

And this is just the point, it's a choice and a BENNEFIT as pointed out by L1011Lover. The airlines don't demand u travel non-rev, they just offer it again as BENNEFIT. AND AGAIN, at least on MOST airlines, non-revs pay a higher fee to fly in F/C/J class. This bennefit is very justified and I agree really isn't for others to question or doubt. I've had a passion for this business for a long time and wanted the opportunity to travel long before I got into this business (9 years now), and therefore, sought after a job in the airline business. As said before, if you desire different compensation or bennefits than what you currently recieve in your current line of work, then it's up to you to make a change. Whatever your choice is, please don't take it out on airline employees who are deserving of their bennefits and VERY MUCH APPRECIATE the seats they do recieve. Furthermore, there's NO need for this conversation about non-reving and bennefits to be personal, we work for a company and recieve compensation and bennefits for it. Would u want anyone else questioning the validity of the benneifts you recieve from the company you work for?! Probably NOT.

Cheers

MJLHOU
Don't worry about things you can't change or control
 
An-225
Posts: 3859
Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2000 2:55 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:32 pm

Every job has its perks. My friend has a company car, free insurance and free gas. My perk just happens to be the flight benefits. If I dress up appropriately, I can fly in a premium cabin, providing the space is available. As someone previously posted, the flight benefits are negotiated into our contracts. I do not see why ANYONE would have a problem with an airline employee flying first class.

And a note to the poster - until you've spent 4 or 5 days working in all kinds of bad weather loading/unloading 300 bag trips or dealing with irate, demanding, entitlement-minded and sometimes plain stupid passengers, until you've slept at the airport that was closed by blizzard - stop posting your immature pathetic crap. Until you've worked in this industry, just shut up, because you have absolutely no idea what it requires.

Alex.
Money does not bring you happiness. But it's better to cry in your own private limo than on a cold bus stop.
 
FutureFO
Posts: 2812
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 10:58 pm

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:34 pm

However there are airlines and union contracts that require the employee (Pilot, FA) be booked in at least C. UA has that in their Pilots contract. And then all other Deadheading crewmembers are placed on the upgrade list. I commute and it sux big time during specific times of the year. It took me 4 legs to get to work earlier this week. However I planned for that. Yes some BENEFITS are free and others we get charged. Once again this is a BENEFIT not a right or a mandatory item. It is getting harder and harder to board flights anyway. So the 1 in 30 chance of getting F or C on a flight is a nice thing.
I Don't know where I am anymore
 
iairallie
Posts: 2326
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 5:42 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:49 pm

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 13):
Isn't that exactly what you are doing for a nonrev upgraded to first?

No. Consider a hotel employee. They get free stays and upgrades to better rooms when all paid guests have been accomodated. Regular guests aren't given suites just because the suites aren't full they have to pay for that product in loyalty or money. Do you begrudge them as well?

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 13):
Most of the rest of us that aren't airline employees and don't fly frequently for business would give practically anything to fly for free.

So would I but the airlines I worked for did not offer FREE travel. Very few airlines do these days.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 30):
The same should apply to airline staff. If an airline employee flying non-rev wants an upgrade, then pay for it, with miles or with the frequent-flyer status.

We do pay in both $$$'s and in labor.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 42):
Yes. But there's also an argument that leaving a full Y pax behind because there are only J seats available, yet putting a non-rev airline employee in that seat is also losing money.

That doesn't happen. Employees don't get on until all paid pax are accomodated. This is one of the few situations where select coach pax will be upgraded. The employee is the one who will have to stay behind.

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 66):
Why do airline employees who paid little to nothing for their ticket expect a F seat?

We don't expect anything not even a coach seat or a jumpseat. We cross our fingers everytime we non-rev and pray that we will just get on the flight in any seat if we get on in J or F then that is just gravy.

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 79):
Nonrevving airline employee getting free ride in F: charge on VISA $0

Not $0 there are payroll deductions involved and it's not cheap.

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 90):
So guarantee yourself a seat and shell out some cash. I've never worked in a business that gave me free anything. Discounts? Sure. But nothing free

Non-rev travel is rarely free unless seated in a jumpseat. There are fees and taxes involved at most airlines and they aren't so cheap as you seem to think. In fact they can be more expensive than revenue tickets on occasion (especially buddy passes).
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
United777atGU
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 2:41 pm

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:09 pm

To my UA Employees... I love BP10 / Perf Incentive!!!
Speechless
 
LHR777
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:14 pm

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:16 pm

Here's how I see it, as an airline employee. I've been an employee of a European 'major airline' for just over 2 years now. I previously worked in the IT industry. Yes, I earned a great salary, but I loved travelling so much, I blew all my cash on that. Always in J or F, all over the world. Loved it. Hated the job. Volunteered for redundancy. Decided I still wanted to travel.

Joined my current airline employer, got flight benefits after 6 months service. Note, flight benefits are a privilege, not a right, and can be taken away.

Now, a comparison -

Airline X
Product - Airline seat, travel from A to B
Service - delivered by the staff (Check-in, res, sales, crew, baggage, etc)
Staff Benefits - Discounted, worldwide standby (sub-load) travel

XYZ Car Company
Product - Motor car
Service - delivered by the staff (Sales, service, mechanics, etc)
Staff Benefits - Discounted employee purchase scheme

So, in the above scenarios, where's the difference? That's right. There isn't one. We all work in our respective (chosen) industries and get rewarded accordingly.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 43):
It's offensive to airline customers flying in Y to see airline employees who paid far less get bumped up to F.

Actually, it's rather offensive to airline employees when customers flying in Y, on cheap internet tickets, kick-off because they want to pay bottom-dollar and sit in a top-dollar seat. If you value our product, you should pay for it. You shouldn't de-value it by expecting it for free.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 75):
"JoeAverage" is your customer, and is the reason you even have a job. He is also likely paying more for the flight than you are as a non-rev or ID90. He deserves the upgrade more than you. Show a little respect for your real boss aka the customer.

Hmm. Interesting theory. "JoeAverage" is indeed my customer. However, is he really the reason I have a job? Does he really contribute that much to the bottom line on a £29 internet special? No, not really. Now, the real customer is the one who has purchased the £7000 First Class seat, or the company that chooses to pay £5000 a pop for roundtrip Business Class seats.

Put in those terms, i'd have to say that "JoeAverage" should be happy to receive what he has paid for - a seat in Economy. Now, if "Joe First Class" or "Joe Business Class" was downgraded due to an airline employee taking-up their seat, I'd have a big problem with that. But guess what? It doesn't happen. Why? Because sub-load is just that - AFTER the load. Once everyone is in the seats they've paid for, or had the frequent flyer upgrades they have earned, then the rest of the seats are fair game for the hapless airline employee who has spent 3 days trying to get home.

As for "the boss", well, that's obvious - it's the Shareholder. We have to work hard to return value to our shareholders and the board. That's who the boss really is. The customer is the customer. The boss is the boss. Simple concept, isn't it?

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 79):
Somehow I think the airline is doing better upgrading the "NON-PAYING customers" than giving free F rides to its whiny employees.

Who's whining?

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 57):
Well, I weigh over 250 lb, so flight attendant is out, I don't have the money for flight training, so pilot is out, I have back pain when moving heavy objects, so baggage handler is out, and I can't stand dealing with people, so CSA is out.

Again, who's whining...........?  

You can't stand dealing with people, but you work in a bookstore? (That most likely gives you employee benefits!?)

[Edited 2007-01-08 08:18:10]
 
fspilot747
Posts: 3455
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 1999 2:58 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:16 pm

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 63):
What does the airline lose giving a Y class pax an upgrade, then?

They lose the honor of giving it to one of their hard working employees who've taken more sh*t than you'd ever know from customers like you. Maybe when you graduate and get a job you'll understand the meaning of that.
 
LHR777
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:14 pm

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:21 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 30):
The same should apply to airline staff. If an airline employee flying non-rev wants an upgrade, then pay for it, with miles or with the frequent-flyer status.

You're obviously unaware of the fact that employee travel is ineligible for frequent flyer mileage accrual, or for the use of frequent-flyer elite benefits.

I have AA Platinum, but when I travel non-rev, it counts for nothing.
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:51 am

RE: Never Airline Staff In C Or F-class!

Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:39 pm

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 79):
Typical customer getting unexpected free upgrade to F: charge on VISA $300 (for original ticket)
Nonrevving airline employee getting free ride in F: charge on VISA $0

Somehow I think the airline is doing better upgrading the "NON-PAYING customers" than giving free F rides to its whiny employees. But then, I was never very good at math. (Just better than my friend who's now an accountant at UA...)

It's about prestige, ambiance and priviledge. When employees are granted free travel and are traveling in first class, we are expected to be well dressed and very low key.

If you want to ride in the front cabin, PAY FOR IT. What is so odd about that concept? Why do people think the company should give away the premium product? When first class "works", it provides abougt 40% of the revenue for the flight. When we give it away it earns us goodwill but no cash. As a benefit to an employees, it's a way of offering a perk that attracts and retains good talent and does not dilute the "value" of the first class cabin.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.

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