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detroitflyer
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Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:32 am

Ive heard that being a regional pilot you are away from home half the time and living out of a suitcase. But is a senario like this ever possible......
Say you are based in Detroit, could they not do regional flights like DTW-SBN-DTW-MKE-DTW ... and end in DTW for the day. This would make pilot life a lot easier and im wondering why this does not happen a lot????

Also i know its really hard for pilots to get jobs here.... but what about other countries?? Where is it really easy to get jobs as a pilot??
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planespotting
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:42 am

Quoting Detroitflyer (Thread starter):
Ive heard that being a regional pilot you are away from home half the time and living out of a suitcase. But is a senario like this ever possible......
Say you are based in Detroit, could they not do regional flights like DTW-SBN-DTW-MKE-DTW ... and end in DTW for the day. This would make pilot life a lot easier and im wondering why this does not happen a lot????

Also i know its really hard for pilots to get jobs here.... but what about other countries?? Where is it really easy to get jobs as a pilot??

You see my young lad, there is such a thing in the airline business called seniority. Those who have it can get those day-out-and-back trips. Because of scheduling and aircraft/crew availability, the majority of regional (and mainline) pilots and cabin crews get stuck with overnights.

My aunt has been a flight attendant on AA since the late 60's, and she can bid and get those coveted out-and-back trips like ORD-SFO-ORD, she leaves Chicago at 8 in the morning and gets back around 5, barring any delays. However, her seniority number is in the double digits (1-99) of active crewers, and I believe to even have a chance of getting a trip like that you have to be in the sub-200 numbers (this was as of last summer, so it could have changed somewhat from the last time we spoke about it).

The same goes for pilots and F/A's at all airlines, although I do not know what their specific numbers are.
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jetjeanes
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:14 pm

mesaba did this in mem ,i dont know if they still do.. they had them layover at night but i think they found it cheaper to create flights back to mem, i dont think those guys were makeing hardly anything anyway at the time
i can see for 80 miles
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:20 pm

Quoting JetJeanes (Reply 3):
mesaba did this in mem ,i dont know if they still do.. they had them layover at night but i think they found it cheaper to create flights back to mem, i dont think those guys were makeing hardly anything anyway at the time

They layover in outstations to bring the first early AM flights back to the hubs to feed traffic.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
atct
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:31 pm

Colgan Air out of the northeastern system (UA/US Express, B1900/Saabs) has alot of out and back schedules. You overnight at your home base everynight. (Saves money on crew rooms).

Mainline wise i know USA3000 does the same thing. (A320's)


ATCT
Trikes are for kids!
 
detroitflyer
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:24 am

well its good that some airlines a doing it... it really seems to make a lot more sense to me. It keeps the pilots happy (i think!!!) and it should save a ton on accomodation expenses
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Tristarsteve
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:30 am

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 2):
Because of scheduling and aircraft/crew availability, the majority of regional (and mainline) pilots and cabin crews get stuck with overnights.

Ryanair in Europe is where you need to work. They have NO crew nightstops at all.

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 2):
there is such a thing in the airline business called seniority

When I used to meet the TWA flights at ARN, most of the cabin crew were in their 60s, except over Xmas, when they were all teenagers!
 
ThePinnacleKid
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:08 am

Quoting Detroitflyer (Reply 6):
well its good that some airlines a doing it... it really seems to make a lot more sense to me. It keeps the pilots happy (i think!!!) and it should save a ton on accomodation expenses

Actually.. its a double edged sword there... I for one have no desire in being back at base each night... I will probably never bid a schedule like that...granted like previously mentioned.. you have to have seniority to even get the "day trips" and my seniority is far far far away from that... BUT, why I and a lot of other pilots I know don't want those is because we commute to base. I would rather commute in and spend 1 night in the crashpad then do a 4 day trip staying in different hotels every night than to spend 4 or 5 nights in the crashpad before coming back home.

On a side note... as previously mentioned.. you need crews to stay at the outstations on the overnight as oppose to the hub so that you can run an early morning flight to the hubs to START the day... if all the flights in the early morning first started at the HUB and went out you wouldn't have the connecting traffic that makes hubs efficient.. all of a sudden every early AM flight is now an only O&D flight from the hub. The way some airlines...*colgan* gets around this from what I understand of their system, someone from colgan please correct me... but their crew bases ARE the outstations... so instead of being based say in PHL you would be based in ABE... so you have tons of small outstation crew bases vs. other networks where we have large crewbases at the hubs...

-Chris
"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
 
azjubilee
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:16 am

I actually would prefer to not do day trips. Driving to work everyday in morning traffic and home in afternoon traffic is just like having a normal job. I would prefer to go to work, do a 3 or 4 day trip and come home for 3-4 days off and do it all over again. You earn more perdiem, which is untaxed as opposed to the day trips and you spend less money on fuel for your car. Everyone has their own preferences and you don't always need to be senior to hold day trips.


AZJ
 
taxpilot
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:40 am

In an "earlier life", I was a crew scheduler, then a line pilot for a regional airline. As mentioned above, the primary reason is that you have the aircraft at the out stations so that they can fly to the hubs for the connecting flights. Early morning flights from a hub or late night flights from an out station are usually not productive. Putting such a schedule together (in a quickly expanding company) was like a new jig saw puzzle each month. We would end up with some unreal scheduling threads. Some just had to be broken up by deadheading. Neither management or the crews liked this very much.
 
detroitflyer
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:01 am

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 9):
You earn more perdiem, which is untaxed as opposed to the day trips

Perdiem?? What is that??? and why is it untaxed??
Boiler Up!!!
 
4Left
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:42 pm

I always enjoyed the overnights, kept me married for 35 years!
Planes aren't busses, put service back into the air!
 
planespotting
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:05 pm

Quoting Detroitflyer (Reply 11):

Perdiem?? What is that??? and why is it untaxed??

When the flight crew (pilots/FA's) are away from base, they receive what is called a "per diem" rate, for every hour they are away from base. This is supposed to cover incidentals like food and other minor things someone might need to spend money on while away from home for a few days.

The average rate is something like $1.90 per hour away from base (can someone flight crew back that up or provide a better number?)...so for example, say you're on a three day trip. You check in at 5:45am on Tuesday and check out at 3:45 pm Thursday (three days = tuesday, wed, thurs), that is a total of 58 hours away from base, for a total of $110.20 (58 x $1.90 = $110.20).

Per diem is untaxed because it is not considered income, per see; it is the same thing as mileage paid were you to travel by your car on company business, which is also untaxed.
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azjubilee
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Sat Jan 13, 2007 7:08 pm

Perdiem is taxed if you return to your base in the same day you start, ie: daytrips.


AZJ
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:54 am

At Hawaiian and Aloha all interisland flights return to HNL at the end of the day.

AM shifts start between 4:30am and 8:30am, ending between Noon and 2:30pm.

PM shifts start between 11:30am and 3:00pm and end between 8:00pm and 10:00pm.

At both AQ and HA the interisland trips are (usually) more junior than mainland flights (1-2 night layovers). AM shifts are more senior than PM shifts also.
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
mpdpilot
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:44 am

let me ask this question could you say live in Chicago and work for delta and fly the early flights to say ATL and then return in the afternoon? or would delta not do this for you.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
doug_or
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:01 am

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 16):
let me ask this question could you say live in Chicago and work for delta and fly the early flights to say ATL and then return in the afternoon? or would delta not do this for you.

They would not becuase that schedule does not begin in a DL pilot domicile (ATL, CVG, SLC, NYC, or LAX). In some rare cases, where that flying was either part of an uncovered trip (flying not awared to a pilot at the end of the bid period), or if it was scheduled to be flown with a dead head on either end (pilot sitting back of plane), a commuter from ORD might be able to do this, but it would certainly be rare.
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Charliejag1
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:06 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 4):
They layover in outstations to bring the first early AM flights back to the hubs to feed traffic.

Yeah, the airplane has to sleep somewhere, and this is an outstation about half the time in order to feed the hub with the first flight of the day. Nobody wants to fly from MEM to some t-prop destination at 6am, they havent had a chance to get from their originating city to the hub yet.
 
mpdpilot
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:23 am

Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 17):
They would not becuase that schedule does not begin in a DL pilot domicile (ATL, CVG, SLC, NYC, or LAX). In some rare cases, where that flying was either part of an uncovered trip (flying not awared to a pilot at the end of the bid period), or if it was scheduled to be flown with a dead head on either end (pilot sitting back of plane), a commuter from ORD might be able to do this, but it would certainly be rare.

thanks for the info. I have another question wouldn't it be in deltas best interest to offer me this opportunity to have this type of schedule and never pay for a hotel for me. someone mentioned this earlier and I am just curious why airlines don't do this more.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
taxpilot
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:38 am

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 19):
I have another question wouldn't it be in deltas best interest to offer me this opportunity to have this type of schedule and never pay for a hotel for me.

They would have already paid for the hotel. The airline knows at the time the bids are drawn up how many rooms will be need for that bid period. The rooms are then contracted for in a block.
 
TheSorcerer
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:41 am

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 7):
Ryanair in Europe is where you need to work. They have NO crew nightstops at all.

I believe this is the same for WizzAir.

Dominic
ALITALIA,All Landings In Torino, All Luggage In Athens ;)
 
mpdpilot
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:47 am

Quoting TaxPilot (Reply 20):
They would have already paid for the hotel. The airline knows at the time the bids are drawn up how many rooms will be need for that bid period. The rooms are then contracted for in a block.

wouldn't they have one less room then I know that when you get as many rooms as airlines I am sure get it might not be much but one less room might save a lot over a long time. Also if they did it for the whole system then they would save alot.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
doug_or
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:58 am

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 22):
wouldn't they have one less room then I know that when you get as many rooms as airlines I am sure get it might not be much but one less room might save a lot over a long time. Also if they did it for the whole system then they would save alot

The problem is they can't build trips like that. The trip are all built at once, so that they can be staffed by pilots in te domeciles (where they live).
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
mpdpilot
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:03 am

Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 23):
The problem is they can't build trips like that. The trip are all built at once, so that they can be staffed by pilots in te domeciles (where they live).

I understand that with the current system that it would be hard. But what I am asking is why wouldn't Delta want to make say 100 bases around the country instead of the 5 or so that they have at there hubs. It would seem to me that they would save some money by putting less employees in hotels everynight and letting more people stay at their homes. Granted that this wouldn't work for every route or every person as this thread has shown there are pilots that like the leaving for 3-4 days and then returning. It is a thought.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
TIA
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:06 am

Quoting ATCT (Reply 5):
Colgan Air out of the northeastern system (UA/US Express, B1900/Saabs) has alot of out and back schedules. You overnight at your home base everynight. (Saves money on crew rooms).



Quoting ThePinnacleKid (Reply 8):
The way some airlines...*colgan* gets around this from what I understand of their system, someone from colgan please correct me... but their crew bases ARE the outstations...

I was flying LGA-ITH last year and started talking to the F/A. who said that she was based in ITH (of all places) and only flew day trips. She was working for Colgan.
 
kanebear
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:08 am

Trying to have that many crewmembers at outstations would be a scheduling NIGHTmare and it's not as though they can do it 'just for you'. How do you handle reserves in that scenario??

I can assure you that saving what little they would on your room pales in comparison to the compensation they'd have to pay out should you be unable to fly and cause delays/cancellations. Mind you, a crewmember can fall ill while on a trip and cause that as well but if you are out of commission for an extended period, what then? They have to base someone where you are?
 
mpdpilot
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:35 am

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 26):
Trying to have that many crewmembers at outstations would be a scheduling NIGHTmare and it's not as though they can do it 'just for you'. How do you handle reserves in that scenario??

I can assure you that saving what little they would on your room pales in comparison to the compensation they'd have to pay out should you be unable to fly and cause delays/cancellations. Mind you, a crewmember can fall ill while on a trip and cause that as well but if you are out of commission for an extended period, what then? They have to base someone where you are?

thanks for the info I was just curious
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
KingAirMan
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:38 am

Do Hawaiian and Aloha ever hire anymore?! if so what are their hours ?

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 15):
At Hawaiian and Aloha all interisland flights return to HNL at the end of the day.

AM shifts start between 4:30am and 8:30am, ending between Noon and 2:30pm.

PM shifts start between 11:30am and 3:00pm and end between 8:00pm and 10:00pm.

At both AQ and HA the interisland trips are (usually) more junior than mainland flights (1-2 night layovers). AM shifts are more senior than PM shifts also.

Do Hawaiian and Aloha ever hire anymore?! if so what are their hours reqd ?
 
planespotting
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:18 am

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 24):
I understand that with the current system that it would be hard. But what I am asking is why wouldn't Delta want to make say 100 bases around the country instead of the 5 or so that they have at there hubs. It would seem to me that they would save some money by putting less employees in hotels everynight and letting more people stay at their homes. Granted that this wouldn't work for every route or every person as this thread has shown there are pilots that like the leaving for 3-4 days and then returning. It is a thought.

Kanebear was right on. The whole reason scheduling thousands of pilots from only a few hubs is something called Economies of Scale. Airlines operate a ridiculously complex operation with thousands of employees, parts, aircraft, passengers, blah blah blah, and have to somehow make sense out of all of it while at the same time making everything flow somewhat seamlessly.

As an organization gets larger and larger, combining things like capacity, operations, employees and the like serves not only to increase efficiency, but improve cost effectiveness. It's much cheaper to have seven crew hubs (which all contain crew rest-rooms, locker facilities, briefing facilities, weather information, etc...) than it is to have 70 of them. At the same time, you end up having only a few airports that have a large number of aircraft positioned for overnights (typically a hub). It is wise both for simplicity and cost sake to keep your crew bases at the places you have many aircraft waiting for pilots. It is also very expensive to create a crew base.

That is, as I understand it, the most basic reasoning for the crew basing system as it is today.

Quoting KingAirMan (Reply 28):
Do Hawaiian and Aloha ever hire anymore?! if so what are their hours reqd ?

check for yourself:

www.alohaair.com
www.hawaiianairlines.com/
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
iairallie
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:40 am

Most airlines have at least some 1 day trips. Some people like them. I do not. Per diem on day trips is taxed while it is not on multiday trips. Due to duty limits and the fact that you have to overnight some aircraft at outstations there will always be an operational need to schedule layovers.
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
mpdpilot
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:17 am

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 29):
As an organization gets larger and larger, combining things like capacity, operations, employees and the like serves not only to increase efficiency, but improve cost effectiveness. It's much cheaper to have seven crew hubs (which all contain crew rest-rooms, locker facilities, briefing facilities, weather information, etc...) than it is to have 70 of them. At the same time, you end up having only a few airports that have a large number of aircraft positioned for overnights (typically a hub). It is wise both for simplicity and cost sake to keep your crew bases at the places you have many aircraft waiting for pilots. It is also very expensive to create a crew base.

That makes sense, I suppose in this current state of the industry if it would save money I am sure that atleast one major airline would have thought about it. Thank you for the information.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
LHRSpotter
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:37 am

Quoting TheSorcerer (Reply 21):
Ryanair in Europe is where you need to work. They have NO crew nightstops at all.

I believe this is the same for WizzAir.

WizzAir have a flight LTN-SOF which arrives after midnight and then the same plane departs SOF-LTN around 6 am which probably means that the crew has to stay in SOF for the night. Mind you they have one plane with Bulgarian reg so may well have a crew based in SOF...
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:34 pm

Quoting Detroitflyer (Thread starter):
Where is it really easy to get jobs as a pilot??

Africa. Fly for smaller airlines operating aircraft such as Cessna 206's. Those jobs have low (very low) requirements.

As for your question on else where in the world, I can speak for NZ and Australia. You won't get a turbo prop job here with anything less than 1500-2000 hours. And this must include approx 300-500 of multi engine time.

Jets on the other hand, I have heard that NZ looks at guys with approx 5000 TT and big portion of this must be time done in Air transport Ops.
 
Mir
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Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:40 pm

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 7):
Ryanair in Europe is where you need to work. They have NO crew nightstops at all.

From what I've heard, that's about the only perk you get from working for Ryanair.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
MCOflyer
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:54 pm

I know a couple of DL f/a's based out of MCO and they do trips to cities where you turn the a/c right around and come back to MCO.

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Professional Pilots: Is This Ever Possible?

Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:07 pm

Aloha just hired 4 pilots a few months back and will probably need a few more this year. Hawaiian still has about 40 on furlough (was 90 last year, so half got recalled in 2006).

For F/As Hawaiian hired 100 last year and anticipates 50 more in 2007. Aloha still has about 20-30 (depending on the season) out on voluntary furlough.

In the US, I think Hawai'i is unrivaled in the respect that aircrews can (if they so choose) be home every night by working interisland flights.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!

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