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Francoflier
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:22 am

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 37):
As much as it seems like he was yelling at him. He really wasn't. Just a high voice. They were all talking loudly in the first place.

Yes, I did believe there was some of that too, I guess the Tu-154 cabin is a bit loud... Man I'd love to fly that thing.

Quoting B777ER (Reply 45):
They just yell now..I imagine back in the 70's and 80's the captain would have pulled a Makarov out and held it to the F/O's head.

 rotfl 
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trojanAE
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:36 am

Quoting 3MilesToWRO (Reply 35):
I highly doubt anyone of you has never met an instructor of this style, wherever you come from

I actually have, having taken a few driving classes from an older Sovier-mentality instructor in Lithuania. It is exactly the same atmosphere as shown in the cockpit video with the exception that there was no swearing in the cockpit, while my instructor repeatedly called me an idiot, and worse language that I will not repeat. It certainly ends up teaching you, it's just a high stress situation and makes you hate learning to drive, but also makes you appreciate finally driving the car without the instructor in it. And it is tough love, at the end my instructor commended me on a good job and said I was one of the better students he's had. I'd hate to see how he treats the slow-learners.
"My soul is in the sky." -William Shakespeare
 
hmmmm...
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:41 am

Where do the russians get their beacon warning tones from? Sounds like there is a bicycle bell under the seat. LOL. I'd laugh to hear what the stall alarm sounds like, or the autopilot disconnect. Got to marvel at those Fisher-Price sound effects.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
707lvr
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:46 am

Cultural thing. Russkies can be abrupt, excitable. It's cold there. And Russian can sound a bit like crazy talk sometimes. I'd love to hear what they think of us, wusses that we've become, and I'm glad we never had to fight them after all.
 
ChicagoFlyer
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:52 am

If I am a flying (or driving) instructor with an inexperienced understudy at the controls, besides the noble desire to educate the youngster (called Pavel--i.e. "Paul"--in the video) I also DO NOT WANT TO DIE. The captain does correct the pupil's (several) errors very fast, and if he does it without saying please, or giving the trainee any respect, who cares? Certainly, in Russia there is a general culture of survival of the fittest rather than cradling the young.

I actually think this whole thing is perceived A LOT worse than it was. Partially it's the jarring camera motion (the whole flight was much smoother than the hands of the cameraman). Partially it's loud voices in an unknown language (they had to be loud, and nobody except the trainee is talking nervously and nobody is angry, though the captain throws in some sarcasm). Partially it's the yoke-shaking incident (which ends up being a great demo by the pilot who knows his plane). Absolutely none of this is cause for concern. But if I were the airline, I certainly would not this to be public--compared to a mild reception on a.net, you might encounter some savaging in the popular press.
 
hmmmm...
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:59 am

The Russians are not the worst at CRM. There was a Turkish flight a few years back where the pilot and co-pilot managed to get into a fist fight. Probably one was a sunni and the other a shite. But I am pretty certain that cockpit resource management is not part of Russian, or other non-western, airline training.

Could be part of the reason why Russia, and other such countries suffer much higher accident rates.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:52 am

Quoting 3MilesToWRO (Reply 31):
It's read "adin",

Oh, in that case not cool at all... hehe.

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DeC
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:00 am

Quoting 3MilesToWRO (Reply 35):
And if you can't concentrate in these circumstances, I'm afraid it would mean you can't be a pilot. A pilot is not a teacher at school, can't say "I won't be piloting unless you all be quiet!"

Yeah, i have to agree with you. I too thought the captain's attitude was a bit out of hand but indeed, it will probably do more good to the f/o to be trained under these circumstances 'cause if when he will be a captain one day and finds himself in a tense emergency situation, these very strict words from his instructor here will reminiscent like talk of an angel, then!
DEC
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:50 am

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 55):

Could be part of the reason why Russia, and other such countries suffer much higher accident rates.

Complete BS. Where the heck do you get this info from? What accidents?
The pilot was doing his job training the new pilot. No harm done, plane on the ground and job done. Next time he won't make those mistakes.

This type of upbringing is what sets apart Russian/Soviet upbringing from Western. Your in the situation full blast, and learning under pressure. You get in trouble once and you won't make the same mistake again.

Many people agree that Russian pilots are very experienced, training done right.

Aeroflot777
 
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FYODOR
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:55 am

Guys...

Aeroflot777 explained you the things well but...

You already know the answers - Russians are horrible, rough etc.  Wink

707lvr is very correct. There are cultural differences. At teaching as well. There are some things tough for western people - often imperative mood in language (normal and polite here), emphasis on practcal examples with less explaining, often sarcasm (absence of feeling of sarcasm or abstract jokes is the often reason for sneers over westerners here  Wink )... Yes, some are not good, effective or polite (btw is it polite to mix with rubbish whole nation discussing just the movie?  Wink ).

Yes, it is partly true, that soviet (and even before) education system was not perfect and was based on discipline standards as the key issue. It is an often question of unpolite, arrogant manner of the teachers - they like upper beings... It is a problem, right. But it is deeper problem when you might think, because sometime 18-20 years old people come to continue their study after middle school - they already personalities with formed stereotypes. They accept knowledges better in usual way for them. Trust me as a few years of experience lecturer at the University - it is a hard job to provide western standards working with such people and it is quite a lot of them still. I always tried but it is long story to change it.

But it is not something like in another planet. Many things looks strange for you, but they are OK for us. Guys, all we have things or national specific which needs to be improved probably. Don't you think so? Would you like to open discussion and poll on best and worst nation? Big grin

Now, returning to the movie. I looked it carefuly. NOTHING offencive or bad, I'd say. Nothen regarded the problem you and I told above.

Look:
1. Captain speak loudy. That is quite a big room for cockpit, some people whom captain might want to be listened on his back. Tu-154 is not very quite plane.
2. Captain use an imperative mood (see above).
3. Captain do not use any words I'd define as bad (I was at the Soviet Army, mates  Wink ).
4. Captain shows how the system works at practical example. Shocking? Yes. Dangerous? No. Tell me, was it good thing to remeber it? Discussion says - yes Big grin Might be it better way to show how controls works than few hours of talks and lections?  Wink

It all seems like a normal practice.

Regards,

F. - horrible Russian.
 
B777ER
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:05 am

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 58):
This type of upbringing is what sets apart Russian/Soviet upbringing from Western. Your in the situation full blast, and learning under pressure. You get in trouble once and you won't make the same mistake again.

Also see "Russian economy".  eyebrow 
 
hmmmm...
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:22 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 58):
Complete BS. Where the heck do you get this info from? What accidents?

Yes, I must be mistaken. It is total myth that Russian airliners have a much worse accident rate and safety record. And the moon landing? Faked



/sarcasm

Talking about CRM, an aeroflot plane crashed because the pilot put his 14 year old son at the controls who disconnected the autopilot. That is a classic. Berate the F/O, but make a 14 year old temporary captain. Sounds Russian to me. LOL.

[Edited 2007-01-16 04:29:17]
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
sccutler
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:32 pm

Quoting OlegShv (Reply 24):
From what I understand, there is no IRS on that type and there aren't as many VOR/DMEs installed across the vast territory of Russia compared to Europe and USA, so to reduce the workload on the pilots, they have a navigator in the crew.

Although I did notice a King KLN90 GPS in the panel...
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
3MilesToWRO
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:36 pm

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 61):
Talking about CRM, an aeroflot plane crashed because the pilot put his 14 year old son at the controls who disconnected the autopilot. That is a classic. Berate the F/O, but make a 14 year old temporary captain. Sounds Russian to me

Yeah. And on Tenerife 747 captain was not patient enough to wait for clear take-off permission. And two pilots of Canadair got to 41000 feet like playing kids and lost both engines. And whole crew of something over Everglades was so busy checking nonexistent problem that they didn't notice their plane sinking into the ground. All Russians, aren't they?

Please, let's be serious. Everyone can have a stupid idea.
 
wing
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:56 pm

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 55):
The Russians are not the worst at CRM. There was a Turkish flight a few years back where the pilot and co-pilot managed to get into a fist fight. Probably one was a sunni and the other a shite.

Ohhaaa ! A sunni and the other shite?Where did you get all this bullshit from?
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OlegShv
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:00 am

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 61):
Talking about CRM, an aeroflot plane crashed because the pilot put his 14 year old son at the controls who disconnected the autopilot. That is a classic. Berate the F/O, but make a 14 year old temporary captain. Sounds Russian to me. LOL.

And those smart Canadian pilots from AirTransat who successfully cross-fed all the fuel into the Atlantic ocean (well, at least they landed safely, got to give them credit for this)  Yeah sure The bottom line is, anyone can do stupid things.
 
B777ER
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:25 am

Quoting OlegShv (Reply 65):
The bottom line is, anyone can do stupid things

True, years ago I believe it was a United crew that fell asleep going to an airport on the US west coast. Believe they were a ways off the coast before ATC was able to reach/wake them. Now that is stupid.
 
WSOY
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:30 am

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 61):
Talking about CRM, an aeroflot plane crashed because the pilot put his 14 year old son at the controls who disconnected the autopilot. That is a classic.

Sorry, but your facts need updating, even the age was wrong. The accident was a far more complicated issue. Among other things, the co-pilot was a very short person, and had adjusted his seat far back which made the recovery difficult.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593
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flyorski
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:47 am

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 55):
The Russians are not the worst at CRM. There was a Turkish flight a few years back where the pilot and co-pilot managed to get into a fist fight. Probably one was a sunni and the other a shite

This is completely offensive, get your facts straight.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:29 pm

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 48):
For those giving those classes, we got a nice example here how NOT to do it

That's your opinion. I'd definitely rather have my instructor be hardcore on me, so I will learn and not make mistakes. In America for instance most instructors are quite passive. I'd rather the teacher be into my training and not sit on the seat and just make quiet comments hoping that I'll improve.

Quoting B777ER (Reply 60):

Also see "Russian economy".

Yes, the Russian economy... one that is booming and rising like never before.

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 61):

Talking about CRM, an aeroflot plane crashed because the pilot put his 14 year old son at the controls who disconnected the autopilot. That is a classic. Berate the F/O, but make a 14 year old temporary captain. Sounds Russian to me. LOL.

Exactly..."LOL"... that's what screams after reading your comment. Funny how that's the only "accident" that comes up in every conversation where Aeroflot-bashing comes up.
Sorry to say, I can come up with a huge list of Western carriers that have had major accidents because of stupid judgment on the crew's part.

In fact why don't I start quite early on in history.... June 30, 1956. TWA & United. Poor judgement on crews part. Both planes down. Numerous fatalities.


Bottom line, stop bashing things you don't have a clue about. If you don't want to train under those conditions... don't. No one is making you. But please don't be naive and criticize something just cause it's not something you're used to.
The captain had the entire situation under control, and I'm sure he wasn't shaking the yoke to get everyone killed. In the modern day of glass cockpits sure go ahead and have a computer educate you. However, with a complicated machine like the TU-154, I'd prefer my crew got hardcore, proper, hands-on training. Flying such a machine actually involves mastery not sitting in front a calculator which practically flies itself, which is what most airliners on this planet are now-a-days.

Aeroflot777
 
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FYODOR
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:05 am

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 69):
Yes, the Russian economy... one that is booming and rising like never before.

Just to continue you words -
some facts instead of ignorant stereotypes:

Russia GDP growth
2001 5,1
2002 4,7
2003 7,3
2004 7,4
2005 6,4

US GDP growth
2001 0,8
2002 1,6
2003 2,5
2004 3,9
2005 3,2

EU GDP growth (for Euro area only)
2001 1,9
2002 0,9
2003 0,8
2004 1,7
2005 1,5

Regards,

F.
 
levg79
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:53 am

Quoting B777ER (Reply 45):
They just yell now..I imagine back in the 70's and 80's the captain would have pulled a Makarov out and held it to the F/O's head.

That actually was a good thing about the Soviet Union in the 70's and 80's, ordinary people did not have access to weapons. So Makarov is definitely out of the question.

On the other note, different cultures have different methods of teaching. I, for example, would rather learn to fly in this way as opposed to sitting in a lecture for hours learning how responsive the yoke is. At least in this way you immediately realize that you do not have to be moving it constantly. However, we all are entitled to have our own opinion.

Leo.
A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
 
eastbay
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:17 pm

Aeroflot 777,

Good luck to you and your flight studies. I hope that you do learn and progress and make it to the right seat and eventually the left seat of a large transport aircraft for a major airline. I might have felt the same way you do when I was 16-20 and a private pilot, but now as a wizened 36-40 year old major airline Captain I can tell you that there are many effective and ineffective ways to conduct training. I can't pretend to understand what is going on in this video- I don't speak Russian and the cockpit must be noisy, though there seems to be a high amount of talking going on. But I can tell you that berating a student is hardly the way to produce a competent pilot. Been through many types of training from all sorts of individuals, and I can tell you that the instructors that raised their voices to me imparted far less of their knowledge than the instructors that found other ways to pass along to me the correct way to fly an airplane. But you don't need to take my word for it, just do some research about CRM, or the problems that airlines such as Korean Air Lines have had regarding their training and make your own judgement. Or listen to the others here who are pilots at 121 carriers. We all have horror stories- and have survived them. But the instructors who stand out never needed to get excited- believe me, flight training is plenty excititing as it is, without yelling or screaming!!!

There's no bashing about things that I don't have a clue about here, just a lifetime's worth of interest and training and observations. It's not about passivity and hoping, nor being as you put it "hard core"; just being effective and safe. This has worked for myself as well as my colleagues working at all the airlines which I have worked for flying aircraft as primitive as the Beech King Air or the DC-10, as well as modern aircraft as the A320.
 
redflyer
Posts: 3905
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:49 pm

Quoting MBJ2000 (Reply 40):
doesn't have a pilot to prove he can handle stress situation well? IIRC jetfighter pilot candidates have to overcome even more stressful environments before they receive their "license"

Most pilots have to prove they can handle distractions in the cockpit...after they master the basics of flying. It's obvious this FO is still in the early stages mastering the TU-154.

Quoting Turpentyine (Reply 44):
He is teaching with a typical russian teacher temperament. Russian students experience this from kindergarden on. So to the FO it is probebly normal and I bet he is used to it. Thats just the way
Russian people are. Part of the culture.

That is probably the best explanation in this entire thread. The occupants of that cockpit are used to that environment as it's part of their cultural upbringing. If you placed a Western born-and-bred pilot into that FO's seat, he'd probably execute a go-around and then slug the pilot good and hard. And after landing he'd probably walk away from the job. So while that video may seem somewhat shocking to a Westerner, it's probably pretty normal in the East. I'm sure if a Russian were to watch a video of a Western flight training, he/she would probably say, "what a bunch of soft, flabby sissies! That training is a joke!"

Quoting FYODOR (Reply 70):
Just to continue you words -
some facts instead of ignorant stereotypes:

Russia GDP growth
20015,1
20024,7
20037,3
20047,4
20056,4

US GDP growth
20010,8
20021,6
20032,5
20043,9
20053,2

EU GDP growth (for Euro area only)
20011,9
20020,9
20030,8
20041,7
20051,5

Why are you using growth rates for comparison? Even North Korea, which by most measures has one of the most backward economies, has experienced a GDP growth of 2% per annum. But with a GDP of only $50 Billion, it's not really very impressive. You should instead compare just the GDP...

Russia 2005 GDP: $1.7 Trillion
U.S. 2005 GDP: $12.3 Trillion
EU 2005 GDP: $12.2 Trillion
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
ContnlEliteCMH
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:55 pm

Does anybody else think the instrument panel of that plane is vaguely reminscient of a 1950's Chevy?
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast

Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:41 pm

Quoting Eastbay (Reply 72):
But I can tell you that berating a student is hardly the way to produce a competent pilot.

That's the problem right there..... He wasn't berating him. It's the standard way of training, nothing extraordinary about it WHATSOEVER. Just because it's different from the way you were taught, doesn't make it wrong. And I'm 100% sure the student is berated or threatened in any way. It's a technique that they use, and it's working, Russia has great pilots both military and commercial.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 73):
You should instead compare just the GDP...

Russia 2005 GDP: $1.7 Trillion
U.S. 2005 GDP: $12.3 Trillion
EU 2005 GDP: $12.2 Trillion

Uh huh. Exactly, compare GDP growth of JUST Russia within the last couple of years, don't compare it to the U.S, which has been flourishing democracy for years upon years. Russia on the other hand has started from a clean slate a mere 17 years ago. And the progress it has seen is unbelievable. Just wait and see for the future.

Aeroflot777

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