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sanscott744
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Air Canada E190 SAN To YYZ

Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:05 am

I was just at SAN in the parking lot off of Harbor Drive plane spotting and to my wonderous surprise I noticed an Air Canada E190 lining up for take off. I knew that they were flying the canadair regional type of aircraft to Vancouver but thought they were using A319's to Pearson airport in Toronto. I noticed the E190 has a max range of 2200 miles(per the AC website) and the distance between SAN and YYZ is 2150. Don't airlines and pilots usually prefer a minimum of 500 mile range difference between the flight segment range and the aircrafts'? Either way.....I have to say it was my first time spotting one of these aircraft and they are beautiful!
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Air Canada E190 SAN To YYZ

Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:50 am

Go to http://www.embraercommercialjets.com.../emb_190.asp?tela=payload_vs_range

to get the payload/range charts for the EJ 190.
I don't know which model AC operates, except that they have it set up for 93 seats, but the chart suggests that the range is in the area of 2200nm. Eastbound from SAN with the typical prevailing westerly winds the still air distance would be about 1900nm. Now westbound they may have had a payload penalty but that depends on the loading for the flight; it might have been light; thus the reason for substituting a EJ190.
 
N1120A
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RE: Air Canada E190 SAN To YYZ

Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:12 am

Quoting SANSCOTT744 (Thread starter):
I noticed the E190 has a max range of 2200 miles(per the AC website) and the distance between SAN and YYZ is 2150.

You, like a lot of people, don't get the difference between nautical and statute miles. The great circle YYZ-SAN is 1874nm.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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SANFan
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RE: Air Canada E190 SAN To YYZ

Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:52 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 2):
You, like a lot of people, don't get the difference between nautical and statute miles.

Ummm, perhaps, N1120A, you could have said, "Some people don't understand that "nautical" or "statute" miles are assumed in certain cases", since the source cited by Scott, as well as others, do not necessarily define what "kind" of miles are being cited.

I asked exactly the same question back in late November (which was the second post on the subject of AC using the 190 from SAN to YYZ) and was corrected a bit less harshly! And I, as I assume Scott does as well, know there is a big difference between "nautical" and "statute" miles!

BTW Scott, the Airbus is scheduled to return to the SAN-YYZ flight on April 1 so enjoy the E for another two and a half months! (Maybe we'll be seeing some B6 colors on 190s later this year...?)

bb
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada E190 SAN To YYZ

Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:53 am

The E190 has been flying YYZ-SAN-YYZ since January 8. It is a sharp eye that you caught it so soon after introduction.

I have been looking at the flight plans out of interest. The flights have been pretty full, in the 90 passenger range, and with an ONT, or LAX alternate, there is about 2000 to 4000 Kgs open weight. In other words, it is well within its capabilities, and could fly approximately 1 to 2 hours further.
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada E190 SAN To YYZ

Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:59 am

Quoting SANFan (Reply 3):
BTW Scott, the Airbus is scheduled to return to the SAN-YYZ flight on April 1 so enjoy the E for another two and a half months! (Maybe we'll be seeing some B6 colors on 190s later this year...?)

Actually April 1 is the schedule change for the summer schedule. And by convention, Air Canada's reservation system will show the previous year's schedule until specifically altered. That is why the A319 shows after April 1, as that is what was flying last year. Rumour now is that the E190 will stay on after April 1, and there is a possibility of an evening westbound, morning eastbound second round trip as well.

Last summer, I did a lot of YYZ-SAN-YYZ flights and the loads were usually around the 80 mark with only rarely above 100....perfect E190 loads.
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SANFan
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RE: Air Canada E190 SAN To YYZ

Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:28 pm

Ahhh, thank you 'Hauler, for that insight into scheduling.

I assume AC has always wanted an a.m. SD departure but I understood (lack of) gate space (UA's) was the problem. (Same with SAN-YVR, right?)

I hope something has in fact changed for this summer and we will see added frequency -- on both routes!

Any idea when "real" April+ schedules will be posted, 'Hauler?

bb
 
sanscott744
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RE: Air Canada E190 SAN To YYZ

Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:51 pm

SANFan....the west side of terminal one had USair in it up to last summer after the merger with HP (which has its gates in Terminal 2). This freed up one gate (I think 15 as the Charlotte and Philadelphia flights moved over to Terminal 2 with HP's flights to PHX and LAS) at SAN thus allowing the flexibility with Air Canada and I am sure also helping Alaska with its addition of SAN - SFO flights. Thanks for your support on the mileage situation, yes I do know there is a difference between statute and nautical miles.
 
Bicoastal
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RE: Air Canada E190 SAN To YYZ

Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:05 pm

Quoting SANSCOTT744 (Reply 7):
SANFan....the west side of terminal one had USair in it up to last summer after the merger with HP (which has its gates in Terminal 2). This freed up one gate (I think 15 as the Charlotte and Philadelphia flights moved over to Terminal 2 with HP's flights to PHX and LAS) at SAN thus allowing the flexibility with Air Canada and I am sure also helping Alaska with its addition of SAN - SFO flights

Gate 15 is United's. Gate 18 is now Alaska's....formerly it was Frontier's/Midwest's. United can't squeeze early morning Air Canada departures in to its schedule. Air Canada can't have more departures unless they want someone other than United to do its ground handling at other gates that likely also aren't available during the popular morning departure time.

As for Air Canada's aircraft in to San Diego....I hear both the Jazz YVR and mainline YYZ flights have to leave luggage behind when the flights are full. It all won't fit into the cargo holds. Canadians bring lots of luggage and golf clubs to San Diego and it won't fit in the mini jets. I also hear that they've already had to take weight restrictions on the E190 by leaving passengers behind on a few of the westbounds.
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Trvlr
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RE: Air Canada E190 SAN To YYZ

Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:42 pm

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 8):

As for Air Canada's aircraft in to San Diego....I hear both the Jazz YVR and mainline YYZ flights have to leave luggage behind when the flights are full. It all won't fit into the cargo holds. Canadians bring lots of luggage and golf clubs to San Diego and it won't fit in the mini jets. I also hear that they've already had to take weight restrictions on the E190 by leaving passengers behind on a few of the westbounds.

Makes you wonder what's going on in the scheduling department. Or, more likely, AC is still dealing with an aircraft shortage. Keep those RJ deliveries coming.

Aaron G.
 
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SANFan
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RE: Air Canada E190 SAN To YYZ

Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:30 pm

All of the above considered, it seems that AC has kind of a tough deal going at Lindbergh Field. Realizing they have been here before, and left once already, I sure hope things work out to their liking and success. Int'l flags here at SAN these days are about as common as smiling Charger fans!

I wonder if they are considering bringing in their own staff and support and trying to get their own gate? Anyone know about some of their other Western US stations -- their own ground support team?

I could see some additional Canadian destinations from SAN eventually so I do hope AC hangs in and things improve for them; I'm sure loads will increase as their name and reputation become more familiar in SD. (I would also think we would become more of a year-round destination as Canadians get to know SD and its weather and attractions!)


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bb

[Edited 2007-01-15 07:36:31]
 
N1120A
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RE: Air Canada E190 SAN To YYZ

Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:11 pm

Quoting SANFan (Reply 3):
Ummm, perhaps, N1120A, you could have said, "Some people don't understand that "nautical" or "statute" miles are assumed in certain cases", since the source cited by Scott, as well as others, do not necessarily define what "kind" of miles are being cited.

The thing is, simply going to Embraer's site shows that it is NM.

http://www.embraercommercialjets.com.../emb_190.asp?tela=payload_vs_range

"Miles" by itself assumes statute miles, as has been shown here. The range of the E190 is given in Nautical miles.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
naritaflyer
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RE: Air Canada E190 SAN To YYZ

Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:21 pm

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 5):
Actually April 1 is the schedule change for the summer schedule. And by convention, Air Canada's reservation system will show the previous year's schedule until specifically altered. That is why the A319 shows after April 1, as that is what was flying last year. Rumour now is that the E190 will stay on after April 1, and there is a possibility of an evening westbound, morning eastbound second round trip as well.

Actually Air Canada was not serving SAN from YYZ last year because it had stopped the service a few years ago. AC started the service again once it got hold of the E190s.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada E190 SAN To YYZ

Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:40 am

Quoting Naritaflyer (Reply 12):
Actually Air Canada was not serving SAN from YYZ last year because it had stopped the service a few years ago. AC started the service again once it got hold of the E190s.

The service was reintroduced last year using the A319. (I flew the inaugural flight)
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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SANFan
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RE: Air Canada E190 SAN To YYZ

Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:17 am

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 13):
The service was reintroduced last year using the A319. (I flew the inaugural flight)

Just a bit more info on your last post, 'Hauler (for the benefit of Naritaflyer.) AC re-started the SAN-YYZ flight on Jul 1, 2006 and it has operated daily with an A-319 until just last week.

I presumed the flight was switched to an E190 due to reduced loads for dead of winter (January thru March) but, according to some of the posts on this thread, contradictory as they are in some cases, maybe it's not that simple. Maybe a/c shortage or perhaps consistent low LF since the flight began (if so, partly due to timing of the flight) are the reason.

If the flight has in fact been taking hits on payload (luggage, pax, or both), then it certainly should be operated with an Airbus, right?

A fairly long flight such as SAN-YYZ (~4 1/2 hours) would be expected to carry more luggage per passenger, wouldn't it, than, say, a 1-2 hour flight to which a smaller plane such as the 190, is better suited? And how about freight? Seems to me that even if the range of a plane will allow a flight, the restricted payload wouldn't be adequate to make the flight a success.

bb
 
Bicoastal
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RE: Air Canada E190 SAN To YYZ

Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:41 am

Quoting SANFan (Reply 10):
I wonder if they are considering bringing in their own staff and support and trying to get their own gate? Anyone know about some of their other Western US stations -- their own ground support team?

United and Air Canada (Star Alliance!) are joined at the hip at most stations in the United States. Most stations have United doing both AC counter and ramp. Some stations have AC counter but United ramp. And a few have AC counter and ramp....likely contractors other than United.
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SafeFlyer
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RE: Air Canada E190 SAN To YYZ

Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:21 pm

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 15):
United and Air Canada (Star Alliance!) are joined at the hip at most stations in the United States. Most stations have United doing both AC counter and ramp. Some stations have AC counter but United ramp. And a few have AC counter and ramp....likely contractors other than United.

I would dare to say that this is incorrect. Joined at the hip... for ground handling perhaps. But AC has it's own ground staff for counter/gate (to my knowledge) in BOS, LGA, ORD, LAX, MIA, TPA, FLL and I'm probably forgetting some. Recently, United lost them at MCO because AC was apparently unsatisfied with the staffing levels. Having been there myself, the line-ups for check-in were sometimes just awful. AC is also moving (If the plan is still on), it's operation in BOS from terminal C to terminal B, since once again, UA apparently just doesn't provide what AC is looking for (3 gates I believe and they only have 2 right now). US airways should be doing the ground handling.

Out west and in smaller stations that often only QK serves, it makes no sense to hire it's own staff.

'Safe
 
sebring
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RE: Air Canada E190 SAN To YYZ

Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:36 pm

Quoting SANFan (Reply 14):

A fairly long flight such as SAN-YYZ (~4 1/2 hours) would be expected to carry more luggage per passenger, wouldn't it, than, say, a 1-2 hour flight to which a smaller plane such as the 190, is better suited? And how about freight? Seems to me that even if the range of a plane will allow a flight, the restricted payload wouldn't be adequate to make the flight a success.

A full E-190, even one that leaves a few bags behind, is 18% cheaper to operate on a per-trip (block hour) basis than a 319. The cargo haul would be minimal or nil anyway, as AC trucks freight to LAX where it has multiple Airbus departures to YUL, YYC, YYZ, etc. If you have 93 passengers on a 93-seat E-190 vs an A319 the operating margin will be 18% higher, which is a compelling reason in low season to go with the smaller aircraft. You would have to go over 100 passengers, possibly 105, to match the profitability with an A319 assuming passengers 94-105 are paying at least the average of the first 93 passengers, but often they will be airline employees, travel agents, FF redemptions, etc., i.e. lower yielding.
 
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SANFan
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RE: Air Canada E190 SAN To YYZ

Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:25 pm

Good points, Sebring. Thank you and you too, 'Flyer for your input.

I still feel quite certain that if the SAN-YYZ could be moved to a morning SD departure (meaning an arrangement other than what they now have with UA), the loads would surely increase since they would be able to connect with the European bank and many more Eastern Canada destinations than they do now. That should assure a 319 (or even bigger) for at least most of the year.

Of course as 'Hauler said,

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 5):
Rumour now is that the E190 will stay on after April 1, and there is a possibility of an evening westbound, morning eastbound second round trip as well.

Getting 2 r/t per day (on 190s) would be really great!

I repeat my hope that things can be worked out at Lindbergh and AC can remain here successfully and eventually grow!

bb

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