Singapore Gets 4 773ER's In 2 Weeks

alexinwa · Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:08 pm

I was looking at the Boeing website and saw that SQ got 4 777-300ER's between Dec. 15th and Dec. 31st.

This seems odd. They don't come off the line that fast. Is this due to airline choice or maybe the way the finacing was done? Are the aircraft paid for in full at time of order or delivery?

I thought 2 a month was alot, but 4 in two weeks....WOW!!!

alexinwa · Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:09 pm

As a follow-up......AirTran got 4 737-700's in about 2 weeks as well in December.

zvezda · Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:29 pm

There are generally three payments made for an airliner, the first at order and the last at delivery.

SQ took their first six 777-300ERs in six weeks. SQ had requested a delay in delivery of the first few and there was some slot swapping. The 777 production rate is now 7/month.

trevd · Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:44 pm

Believe these aircraft were shop complete some time ago but SQ and their IFE and seat vendors have had some significant shortages and problems getting parts to the airplane on time. Last time I was up in Evertt (mid-Dec) I saw 3 of these a/c.

Good to see that SQ and their vendors got some of their parts problems sorted out to allow the a/c to deliver

Trev...

HB-IWC · Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:37 pm

When introducing a new longhaul aircraft, in order to better guarantee operational stability, minimize delays and increase utilization rates, it is always preferable to take delivery of a couple of frames in a relatively short time frame than to spread out deliveries. When SQ took delivery of the A345s two years ago, as such, the airline took 3 frames in a short time as well.

N328KF · Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:26 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 4):
When introducing a new longhaul aircraft, in order to better guarantee operational stability, minimize delays and increase utilization rates, it is always preferable to take delivery of a couple of frames in a relatively short time frame than to spread out deliveries. When SQ took delivery of the A345s two years ago, as such, the airline took 3 frames in a short time as well.

Yes, that must explain why SQ is getting screwed by only having one A380 for almost a half a year. Wink

jacobin777 · Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:29 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 5):
Yes, that must explain why SQ is getting screwed by only having one A380 for almost a half a year.

..but that's not SQ's fault..if they had a choice, I'm sure the would love to have 3-4 of the Big Beasts in their fleet in a short period of time...

PhilSquares · Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:06 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 5):
Yes, that must explain why SQ is getting screwed by only having one A380 for almost a half a year.

How do you start long haul service with one aircraft????

amirs · Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:18 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 5):
Yes, that must explain why SQ is getting screwed by only having one A380 for almost a half a year.

When are they getting this A380?

N328KF · Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:43 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 7):
How do you start long haul service with one aircraft????

That's exactly my point. The single A380 seems of little use other than allowing personnel to get familiar with the aircraft.

Quoting Amirs (Reply 8):

When are they getting this A380?

October of this year.

zvezda · Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:16 pm

Quoting Amirs (Reply 8):
When are they getting this A380?

No one really knows. It was contracted for delivery in February 2006. That slipped to April, then to November, then to December, then to October 2007. There are rumors of yet another (yet to be announced) delay.

Reggaebird · Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:48 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 10):
No one really knows. It was contracted for delivery in February 2006. That slipped to April, then to November, then to December, then to October 2007. There are rumors of yet another (yet to be announced) delay.

Where have you heard these "rumors"? I haven't seen anything that would suggest a further delay in the A380 deliveries. Indeed, that would be corporate suicide for Airbus to push out the dates again.

Reggaebird

zvezda · Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:26 am

Quoting Reggaebird (Reply 11):
Where have you heard these "rumors"?

The rumors are rife throughout the industry. Whether or not they are credible is another question. Even if they are credible, they may or may not be true. We'll find out soon.

HB-IWC · Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:10 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 7):
How do you start long haul service with one aircraft????

You can't really. I'm guessing the frame will be used for either a thrice weekly Heathrow service with a couple of HKG turns in between or for a SYD service with some higher frequency, although a daily service is likely out of the question. All in all, nothing really sustainable can be done with a single frame.

Stitch · Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:13 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 13):
I'm guessing the frame will be used for either a thrice weekly Heathrow service with a couple of HKG turns in between or for a SYD service with some higher frequency, although a daily service is likely out of the question.

I believe it has been reported here that SQ's first A380 will do SIN-SYD-SIN and once the second through fourth frames arrive, will expand to SIN-SYD-SIN-LHR-SIN.

MD95 · Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:30 am

The roll out date for the 4 a/cs were: 11/6/06, 11/15/06, 11/26/06 and 12/3/06 while delivery dates for the same a/cs were 12/15/06, 12/23/06, 12/22/06 and 12/31/06.

FlyDekker · Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:30 am

Does anyone know what routes SQ will be putting the 777-300's on?

beech19 · Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:06 am

Quoting Alexinwa (Thread starter):
This seems odd. They don't come off the line that fast.

They don't? We pull a completed 777 out every three days... Additionally they get painted in 2-3 days and if all goes well they can be flight tested in only a matter of 3-4 days (if needed).

I've seen from pullout of a 747, thru paint, flight tested and delivered in about 10 days... i beleive this was China Cargo or NCA who took that one... just recently.

flyingKangaroo · Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:25 am

Quoting FlyDekker (Reply 16):
Does anyone know what routes SQ will be putting the 777-300's on?

The new 77W is flying SIN-CDG, SIN-MXP-BCN, , and some SIN-HKG services. It will also begin to serve SIN-ZRH and SIN-ICN-SFO early this year.

Don't forget, however, that these are 777-300ERs, not 777-300s. SQ already flies the 777-300s between SIN and many regional Asian destinations.

flyingKangaroo

stylo777 · Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:32 am

Quoting FlyingKangaroo (Reply 18):
Quoting FlyDekker (Reply 16):
Does anyone know what routes SQ will be putting the 777-300's on?

The new 77W is flying SIN-CDG, SIN-MXP-BCN, , and some SIN-HKG services. It will also begin to serve SIN-ZRH and SIN-ICN-SFO early this year.

in a few months you can add SIN-FRA to this list

zvezda · Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:49 am

Quoting FlyingKangaroo (Reply 18):
The new 77W is flying SIN-CDG, SIN-MXP-BCN, , and some SIN-HKG services. It will also begin to serve SIN-ZRH and SIN-ICN-SFO early this year.

Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 19):
in a few months you can add SIN-FRA to this list

... and SIN-TPE-LAX.

With a huge shortage of capacity to LAX, I would not be surprised to see a new additional SIN-xxx-LAX service using the 777-300ER or a 777-200ER, possibly via HKG, KIX, NGO, or ICN, though PVG or PEK would be better if SQ could get the rights from the Chinese government.

airbazar · Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:21 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 7):
How do you start long haul service with one aircraft????

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 13):
All in all, nothing really sustainable can be done with a single frame.

Are you saying that SIN-SYD-SIN is not a sustainable route? It's only one of SQ's most important routes and one for which the A380 was specifically bought for. You only need one aircraft on routes that are 10 hours long or less.

zvezda · Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:25 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 21):
Are you saying that SIN-SYD-SIN is not a sustainable route?

I don't think PhilSquares was referring to SIN-SYD as long-haul.

PhilSquares · Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:09 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 21):
Are you saying that SIN-SYD-SIN is not a sustainable route? It's only one of SQ's most important routes and one for which the A380 was specifically bought for. You only need one aircraft on routes that are 10 hours long or less.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 22):
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 21):
Are you saying that SIN-SYD-SIN is not a sustainable route?

I don't think PhilSquares was referring to SIN-SYD as long-haul.

Zvezda, thanks for the comments. You're correct, SIN-SYD-SIN isn't long haul at all. You can certainly do that with one aircraft and get the rotation in under 24 hours. My comments were directed at SIN-LHR and if you tag that on the SYD flight you need a minimum of 3 aircraft, actually 4 is the optimum.

So Airbazar, perhaps you need to re-read the posts you referred to in your post. That's not what people are saying at all.

zvezda · Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:18 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 23):
Zvezda, thanks for the comments. You're correct, SIN-SYD-SIN isn't long haul at all. You can certainly do that with one aircraft and get the rotation in under 24 hours.

You're welcome. At 15.5 hours of block time for the RT, that leaves 8.5 hours per day for turnarounds and line MX. SQ should be able to sustain that daily with one WhaleJet until the second one arrives.

kaitak744 · Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:27 am

Quoting FlyDekker (Reply 16):
Does anyone know what routes SQ will be putting the 777-300's on?

(not a fact, but VERY likely) 19 777-300ERs = 1-1 777-200ER (long-haul) replacement with addition of SIN-FRA-JFK, SIN-CDG, and SIN-ZRH.

So far, routes that have been annouced/commenced
SIN-CDG
SIN-ZRH
SIN-MXP-BCN
SIN-ICN-SFO
SIN-TPE-LAX
SIN-FRA
spare a/c rotations- SIN-HKG.

zvezda · Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:41 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 25):
So far, routes that have been annouced/commenced
SIN-CDG
SIN-ZRH
SIN-MXP-BCN
SIN-ICN-SFO
SIN-TPE-LAX
SIN-FRA

Not surprisingly, this is a mix of routes previously flown by 777-200ERs and 747-400s. SQ will continue to retire 747-400s (like 9V-SPC yesterday) more or less as 777-300ERs arrive, though not on a 1 for 1 basis. It will be years before SQ start retiring their 777-200ERs.

brilondon · Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:18 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 9):
That's exactly my point. The single A380 seems of little use other than allowing personnel to get familiar with the aircraft

That may be the reason for the single A380 for the first six months. So the crews can get up to speed on the new aircraft. I am sure that once they have sufficient crews to staff the aircraft they should also be getting more of the aircraft.

PhilSquares · Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:43 am

Quoting Brilondon (Reply 27):
That may be the reason for the single A380 for the first six months. So the crews can get up to speed on the new aircraft. I am sure that once they have sufficient crews to staff the aircraft they should also be getting more of the aircraft

Ok, here's the deal!!!! SQ would like to have the 380s now, not in 9 months. Their entire marketing plan is down the tubes because of the 380 DELAYS.

The one 380 has nothing to do with "crews getting up to speed" or anything even remotely like that. That's what simulators are for! This is not SQ's choice this is what Airbus has offered them, along with massive discounts on the 380 (buy one get one free).

Please people, look at other posts, look at other publications and see what a massive mess Airbus has made of the 380.

jfk777 · Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:44 am

It should be no surprise SIA introducing 4 773ER in a short time. They are introducing the latest version of the their FIRST and Business Class so they want it on as many routes as possible. CDG and Zurich are the third and fourth important cities in Europe served by SIA. SIN-ICN-SFO may not be Fliht1/2(SFO-HKG-SIN) but SFO is a very important city for SIA.

stylo777 · Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:45 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 25):
replacement with addition of SIN-FRA-JFK

SQ25/26 SIN-FRA-JFK will remain B744
only the evening SQ325/6 SIN-FRA-SIN will be replaced by B77W

no B77W in NYC !!!

zvezda · Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:49 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 28):
This is not SQ's choice this is what Airbus has offered them, along with massive discounts on the 380 (buy one get one free).

Is that anything like "Take the 10 on order, get 9 free?"

Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 30):
SQ25/26 SIN-FRA-JFK will remain B744
only the evening SQ325/6 SIN-FRA-SIN will be replaced by B77W

no B77W in NYC !!!

For now.

jbernie · Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:31 am

Is there any traffic #s avilable for people boarding in Singapore for the LHR-SIN-SYD and return flights? Obviously it isnt just Aussies and English going back and forth Smile

.

Also, If they run with one 380 for say a month or two or more, and they obviously can't have the plane in two places at once to keep a proper cycle going, what aircraft combo would compliment an A380? 2*773 or 2*340? Or would they do a 380 + 340/773 and 2 * 744s on the reverse to equal it out a bit better?

There have been just a few discussions on the 380s, but do we have a list of how the initial slots break out, and how likely SA, QF & EK are to have multiple 380s arrriving close together? I'm sure it has been discussed I just don't recall seeing a lit.

zvezda · Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:43 am

Quoting Jbernie (Reply 32):
If they run with one 380 for say a month or two or more, and they obviously can't have the plane in two places at once to keep a proper cycle going, what aircraft combo would compliment an A380? 2*773 or 2*340? Or would they do a 380 + 340/773 and 2 * 744s on the reverse to equal it out a bit better?

As long as SQ have only one WhaleJet in operation, it will only be flying back and forth SIN-SYD. It won't serve LHR until there are at least two in the fleet. Depending on how far apart the second and third are delivered, SQ will either start LHR 3x weekly with the second WhaleJet or wait for the third and start daily service.

hz747300 · Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:17 am

Was not this thread about SQ receiving 4 773ERs in two weeks? Anyhow, would they use it on the SIN-HKG run, just to fill some hours on the type? Or, would it be part of the SIN-HKG-SFO service.

BTW, the 744s which SQ uses on the SIN-SYD run are very old. They feel dusty inside and I was getting a cough after flying them last year. My fault though as I was flying SQ to pick up some Star miles. The 773ERs would be greatly received there.

I think the reason that one A380 is not enough for the SIN-SYD run (which one aircraft would be find because it is only a 7:30 hrs route either direction), is because it was supposed to be a Kangaroo route from SYD-SIN-LHR. I know this because I entered a contest to win a flight on the first one! However, that date of the contest is no longer valid because of the delays in the A380 program. Sad

kaitak744 · Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:25 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 26):
Not surprisingly, this is a mix of routes previously flown by 777-200ERs and 747-400s. SQ will continue to retire 747-400s (like 9V-SPC yesterday) more or less as 777-300ERs arrive, though not on a 1 for 1 basis. It will be years before SQ start retiring their 777-200ER

I said the 777-300ER will replace the 777-200ER(long-haul) at Singapore. I didn't say Singapore will retire its 777-200ERs.

747s have been recently retired from CDG and ZRH.
There are also 747s on intra-Asia routes. These are being replaced by 777-200ERs which get "displaced" by the 777-300ERs on the SIN-MXP-BCN, SIN-ICN-SFO, SIN-TPE-LAX routes. So, 777-200ERs technically get replaced. They just don't get knocked out of the fleet. ANA is doing the same: the 777-300ERs replaced the 777-200ERs on the North America routes. However, their 777-200ERs are still in the fleet doing other stuff.

PolymerPlane · Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:31 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 28):
The one 380 has nothing to do with "crews getting up to speed" or anything even remotely like that. That's what simulators are for! This is not SQ's choice this is what Airbus has offered them, along with massive discounts on the 380 (buy one get one free).

I agree. Any airline can introduce a new type all the time without taking 1 aircraft to get the crew up to speed. SQ can do that job more easily with 4 A380 at hand, instead of having operation nightmare with 1 aircraft.

Cheers,
PP

6thfreedom · Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:56 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 33):
As long as SQ have only one WhaleJet in operation, it will only be flying back and forth SIN-SYD.

While much of the discussion has been based on SIN-SYD, I don't think that the sector would cope with a massive reduction in capacity from triple daily B744.

On the other hand, SIN-MEL already has twice daily B773 and onec daily B744, so this could easily be done using the new B773ER.

Also, with MEL being 24 hours, it would also mean that SQ could run the B773ER with an immediate turnaround, which would mean more ground time in SIN for fine tuning.

over 7 hours in SIN, so could be used for regional sector.

11:40p SIN 2 8:55a+1 MEL 2 SQ 237 Non-stop 773 7:15
10:10a MEL 2 4:05p SIN 2 SQ 238 Non-stop 773 7:55

3 hours in SIN

9:55a SIN 2 7:10p MEL 2 SQ 217 Non-stop 773 7:15
12:50a MEL 2 6:45a SIN 2 SQ 218 Non-stop 773 7:55

jacobin777 · Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:50 pm

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 29):
but SFO is a very important city for SIA.

SFO is already seeing SQ's 777-300ER..is the newest one, I'm not so sure...I assume it is....

ikramerica · Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:01 pm

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 37):
While much of the discussion has been based on SIN-SYD, I don't think that the sector would cope with a massive reduction in capacity from triple daily B744.

If they wanted to maintain capacity, I would wager they would go with

A380 6x weekly w/ 744 or smaller on 7th day.
744 7x weekly.
772 7x weekly.

Not only does this allow them to retire 2 744s, but also takes a 772ER that is coming off of a new 77W route and reuses it.

6thfreedom · Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:29 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 39):
If they wanted to maintain capacity, I would wager they would go with

A380 6x weekly w/ 744 or smaller on 7th day.
744 7x weekly.
772 7x weekly.

Not only does this allow them to retire 2 744s, but also takes a 772ER that is coming off of a new 77W route and reuses it.

hang on a sec....
i think there's a bit of a misunderstanding here...

I wasn't talking long term capacity when the the A380 finally arrives.

I was merely pointing out that with only 1 B773ER in the fleet.... or a small number which doesn't allow a daily service to certain destinations, that SIN-MEL would be an option, as the sector could be done daily with only one frame, and would also have ample ground time in SIN!

Make sense?

zvezda · Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:44 pm

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 34):
the 744s which SQ uses on the SIN-SYD run are very old.

The oldest 747 in SQ's fleet is 9V-SMP, which was delivered new to SQ in December 1992. She just turned 14 years old.

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 40):
I was merely pointing out that with only 1 B773ER in the fleet.... or a small number which doesn't allow a daily service to certain destinations, that SIN-MEL would be an option, as the sector could be done daily with only one frame, and would also have ample ground time in SIN!

Make sense?

SQ have 6 777-300ERs in operation.

Stitch · Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:21 pm

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 37):
While much of the discussion has been based on SIN-SYD, I don't think that the sector would cope with a massive reduction in capacity from triple daily B744.

I do not believe anyone is advocating that SQ replace all of their daily 744s to SIN with the first A388.

More likely one of the 744s will be upgauged to an A388 (and either retired to deployed elsewhere) or they might even just add it as a fourth daily flight and run it light, which might help the crews adjust to it in revenue service.

zvezda · Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:39 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 42):
I do not believe anyone is advocating that SQ replace all of their daily 744s to SIN with the first A388.

More likely one of the 744s will be upgauged to an A388 (and either retired to deployed elsewhere) or they might even just add it as a fourth daily flight and run it light, which might help the crews adjust to it in revenue service.

SQ's first WhaleJet will replace one of the existing Jumbos going to SYD, which would be retired from the SQ fleet. It will not be added as a fourth daily flight.

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