astuteman
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RE: Airbus To Build A320 Completely In Hamburg

Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:10 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 48):
Any country with less than 10% average annual economic growth per capita is doing poorly in my opinion. There is no excuse for less than 10%

When you get back to our world, you'll have to let us know how that's done  Smile.

10% per capita annual growth is totally unsustainable in a developed economy, certainly in the long-term. You'll get it for a while in emerging economies (like China, or.....Lithuania perhaps..)

3% p.a. is far more realistic on a sustainable basis.

Regards
 
Ruscoe
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RE: Airbus To Build A320 Completely In Hamburg

Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:25 am

My question is:

Can Hamburg produce enough 320's, or are we going to see French support for an enhancement of 320 production in China, at the expense of Hamburg.

I know it sounds cynical but I would be very cautious of French intentions with Airbus.

Ruscoe
 
zvezda
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RE: Airbus To Build A320 Completely In Hamburg

Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:26 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 50):
When you get back to our world, you'll have to let us know how that's done Smile.

10% per capita annual growth is totally unsustainable in a developed economy, certainly in the long-term. You'll get it for a while in emerging economies (like China, or.....Lithuania perhaps..)

3% p.a. is far more realistic on a sustainable basis.

Simple, cut taxes and government spending to below 5% of GDP.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus To Build A320 Completely In Hamburg

Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:35 am

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 51):
Can Hamburg produce enough 320's, or are we going to see French support for an enhancement of 320 production in China, at the expense of Hamburg.

Does anyone know how many planes XFW currently builds and how many TLS does?

And is the production ramp-up of the A320 family to 36 per month spread between both facilities, or just TLS?

Personally, I don't see China getting anything more then local production. First, I don't see the French unions being that vindictive to the German's and second, if China gets more A320 production, then that means some widebody work at TLS would need to be given to XFW to help "even out" the workload between the two...
 
Dougloid
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RE: Airbus To Build A320 Completely In Hamburg

Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:45 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 42):
Yeah , Any other country in the world exports as much as Germany , Germany is world Champion in exports . Also Germany is the 3 richest country in the world . So it´s false to say that it´s the slowest growing . Last year it has grown 2.5 %.

Well, what that means is that you didn't read the whole report....that would be the WTO World Trade In Overview, 2005 report that they publish.

It is true that germany is the number one ranked exporter of merchandise and the United States is runner up. That doesn't mean they made any money at it though.

If one looks to commercial services, the US and the UK-you know, that creaky antiquated monarchy that doesn't really want to be called European-well, they both outrank Germany.

And you're still depend on others for oil and gas.

Lebensraum, anyone?



FITA isn't as optimistic as you seem to be about the future of the german economy. It looks from here like y'all still have a case of East Zone Indigestion.

http://www.fita.org/countries/germany.html


Capital City: Berlin

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is in Berlin


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Click to enlarge
In 2005, the German economic activity was not as strong as in 2004. The GDP growth was 0.8% in 2005 whereas it was 1.6% in 2004. The FMI forecasts a 1.2% growth in 2006. As in 2004, the performance of the German economy in 2005 has been mainly due to its exportations. However, the growth was lower than in 2004 because the domestic consumption remained weak and the investments meagre. Unemployment remains high, and for the first time has exceeded five million people. Public funds are still showing a deficit and Germany is not able to comply with the European Union stability pact. The government deficit is about to be more than 3% in 2005, for the fifth consecutive time. In 2005, the German deficit was 3.9% of the GDP. The economic performances of ex-GDR remain much lower than western Länder. However, the recent entry of central Europe countries in the European Union is likely to bring positive consequences on the German economy.

German agricultural sector, which provides 1.14% of country's GDP, widely benefits from State subsidies. German main agricultural productions are milk, pig & cattle breeding, sugar beat and cereals. Certain regions of Germany are specialized in the production of wine and fruits. Due to pressure from the Ministry of Agriculture, production through organic agriculture is given more importance. The country is undergoing a process of de-industrialization. The contribution of industrial sector to the German GDP has gone down from 51% in 1970 to 32% today. Nevertheless, the German economy keeps industrials specializations: mechanical engineering, electrical and electronics, car and chemical industries are performing good figures. The country is lagging behind in the service and new technology sectors, when compared to some of its European neighbours. The automobile industry is one of the major industrial sectors in Germany, the country being the 3rd largest car exporter in the world. The German economic model relies on the small scale sector having more than 3 million SMEs which employ 70% of the wage-earners.

Germany is the largest European economic power and constitutes 30% of Euro zone GDP. Its top three import partners are France, the U.S.A., and the Netherlands. Germany mainly imports machines, industrial equipment goods and hydrocarbons.
Its three top export partners are France, the U.S.A., and the United Kingdom. It mainly exports machines, vehicles and electrical and electronic equipment.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Airbus To Build A320 Completely In Hamburg

Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:55 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 54):

Your data is outdated. Germany's unemployment rate declined by 1 million people last year. Structural reforms took some time to be implemented, but the worst issues are overcome. Germany will profit from the EC expansion towards the east, at least much more than the western neighbours will do.

For the first time in several years, the Euro criteria was fully met again. Investments in infrastructure are finally taking place in the western part, again.

Back on topic: I think this finally makes sense. Lets build all narrowbodies in Germany, all widebodies in France.
 
zvezda
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RE: Airbus To Build A320 Completely In Hamburg

Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:03 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 55):
Back on topic: I think this finally makes sense. Lets build all narrowbodies in Germany, all widebodies in France.

 checkmark  That much we can agree on. Building the A320s at TLS and the A319s and A321s at XFW is irrational.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Airbus To Build A320 Completely In Hamburg

Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:21 am

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 25):
So Hamburg destroyed an ecologically sensitive marshland to expand its runway to accomodate the 380 only to find that the 380 will no longer be manufactured there?

If not mistaken, the A380 was never going to be manufactured in Hamburg, only flown there after assembly for interior installation and other fitting out prior to delivery.
 
Lumberton
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RE: Airbus To Build A320 Completely In Hamburg

Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:45 am

This report on Airwise suggests the French unions aren't too happy about this prospect:
http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1168901444.html

Quote:
French unions vowed on Monday to resist any plan to switch the assembly of Airbus's top-selling A320 to Germany as a result of restructuring.

But they denied a report that the planemaker's management had already informed them of the switch of A320 production from Toulouse, in France, to Hamburg, Germany.

"There is no question of sending narrow-body aircraft production to Hamburg. The management has never talked to us about this and it would probably be a problem for them to do it industrially," Jean-Francois Knepper, a Force Ouvriere union official who serves on the Airbus works council, said....

Unions in France and Germany have expressed fears for jobs.

"There is no question of us letting our assembly line for single-aisle planes go to Hamburg," Didier Gregory, secretary of the Airbus works council, said in Toulouse.

"Our production rate is due to rise from 14 planes a month to 17 in August 2007. We have more than 1,000 aircraft to deliver, so it's not possible to tinker with our organization, whatever they decide about future A350 production," he said.

"We have capacity and expertise on single-aisle planes in Toulouse and we plan to keep it that way."

Gallois still has some selling to do here....
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
pelican
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RE: Airbus To Build A320 Completely In Hamburg

Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:46 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 43):
Relative to what? North Korea? Somalia?

Relative to the rest of the OECD. The German economy is competive. That doesn't mean isn't anything left to do. Neither does it mean Germany is at the top (whatever this means).

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 43):

That's not an indicator of economic health. It's easy to boost exports at the expense of the economy.

 Yeah sure Tell this to the Americans with their enormous trade deficit. It's far from easy in an environment with unfavorable exchange rates (US is export destination no. 2).

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 43):
Hmmm. The first analogy that comes to mind is: "A minority of the teachers at my child's school are illiterate and innumerate. As long as they aren't in the majority, I'm not bothered about it." I serve on five boards at the moment and I can assure you that having even just one board member unwilling or unable to look out for the interests of the shareholders is a serious problem for a company.

We are not talking about some people with a deficit. You should try to understand the German board system. It's quite different to the Anglo-Saxon one. I'm not a fan of the employee participation in the board, but I can't remember one German company which got into serious trouble because of it either.
The problem with board participation is that it can deter foreign investors who think like you.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 43):

Of course there are other reasons. Extreme taxation, kafkaesque bureaucracy, subsidies, etc.

Taxation plays a role - but there is no general negative correlation
between overall taxation level and economical growth - it's more the composition of the tax system which leads often to problems. This was and to a certain extend still is a problem in Germany. But believe in your lower tax and the GDP will grow automatism...
Bureaucracy is bureaucracy and too much is bad.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 44):
I wouldn't say that. However, German "exports" have grown significantly to other EU countries. What I think has likely happened is that Germany has benefited from reduced trading barriers relative to non-EU countries, and Germany is benefiting from the lack of competitiveness in certain industries in those other EU countries.

But then according to Dougloid's data the USA and the UK are Germany's export partners number two and three.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 48):
I'm not trying to bash anyone. I just pointed out the extreme stupidity of one particular law and people start trying to hold up Germany as a shining example of economic growth (which it's not).

I agree whoever pointed Germany out as a shining example of economic growth is probably stupid (to use your words). I was just saying that Germany has other problems than employee participation - which (again) is a marginal problem.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 48):
Any country with less than 10% average annual economic growth per capita is doing poorly in my opinion. There is no excuse for less than 10%.

 rotfl 

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 52):
Simple, cut taxes and government spending to below 5% of GDP.

You should teach economics  crazy 

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 54):
The FMI forecasts a 1.2% growth in 2006.

That's the problem with GDP forecasts - they are as reliable as weather forecasts and they suffer often from political agendas.

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 50):
3% p.a. is far more realistic on a sustainable basis.

That sounds sensible.

pelican
 
Dougloid
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RE: Airbus To Build A320 Completely In Hamburg

Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:37 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 55):
Lets build all narrowbodies in Germany, all widebodies in France.

Not going to happen. The A340 is winding down, the A330 is still alive, the A380's in limbo, the A350 won't get built for a number of years....the only way you get there is by putting the French out of work.

the worker bees are not going to sit still for that.

One the other hand, the only reason the China project is on the boards is that you guys don't take the Chinese seriously. Maybe you all ought to.

One Day At a Road Side Cafe in Toulouse.

Tourist: M'sieu, can you tell me where les Airbus Narrow Body is made?
Jean, Guy, and Luc together: Dont you move a god damn inch!
Tourist: B-b-but I heard les Allemands are going to take over ze line!
Jean: Don't believe ever'thing you read in les newspapers.

Fade to black.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
ncelhr
Posts: 258
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RE: Airbus To Build A320 Completely In Hamburg

Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:37 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 58):
"There is no question of sending narrow-body aircraft production to Hamburg. The management has never talked to us about this and it would probably be a problem for them to do it industrially," Jean-Francois Knepper, a Force Ouvriere union official who serves on the Airbus works council, said....

French Trade Union guys wouldn't recognise reason if someone replaced a bag of pebbles they're holding with a bag of gold. They'd still be complaining. Communism/Marxism is still alive somewhere on the planet.

Someone has to put it in their thick head that if there is no restructuring, they'll be out of a job in less than 10 years.
 
EvilForce
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RE: Airbus To Build A320 Completely In Hamburg

Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:40 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 13):
Now the question is :

Is it better for a Airbus Assembly to build the more prestigious 350-380-330...

Or build the best seller 320 and 321 319 318 .

If it was me, I couldn't care less about "prestige". I'd care about which one paid me the most money to do my job, and provide stability for me and my family. "Prestige" doesn't pay the mortgage.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Airbus To Build A320 Completely In Hamburg

Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:39 pm

Quoting Gbfra (Reply 39):
Don't forget that neither EADS nor Airbus are German companies! EADS is a Dutch company, Airbus is a French one. Therefore the German model does not apply to them.

The German unions are represented via DaimlerChrysler's stake.
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
-Donny Miller
 
columba
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RE: Airbus To Build A320 Completely In Hamburg

Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:21 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 28):
Well, not all of them. There is that A320 plant Airbus plans to build in China....

The articles I have read so far in the German media say that the successor of the A320 will be completely build in Hamburg I don´t know if they have plans to build the successor in China as well.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
jasond
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RE: Airbus To Build A320 Completely In Hamburg

Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:51 pm

kind of adds to the ongoing 'rivalry' between the two crews now doesn't it  Smile
 
NAV20
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RE: Airbus To Build A320 Completely In Hamburg

Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:55 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 64):
The articles I have read so far in the German media say that the successor of the A320 will be completely build in Hamburg I don´t know if they have plans to build the successor in China as well.

As part of the deal to sell 300 X A320s to China (150 in 2005, 150 last year), Airbus have had to undertake to build and operate an assembly plant in Tientsin. One has to assume that most if not all of the 300 aircraft ordered by China will be assembled in China - although the components will no doubt continue to be manufactured in Europe.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
astuteman
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RE: Airbus To Build A320 Completely In Hamburg

Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:32 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 66):
One has to assume that most if not all of the 300 aircraft ordered by China will be assembled in China - although the components will no doubt continue to be manufactured in Europe.

At 4 per month, those 300 frames will keep the chinese plant quiet for the next 6 years......  Smile

Regards
 
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Revelation
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RE: Airbus To Build A320 Completely In Hamburg

Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:44 pm

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 13):
Now the question is :

Is it better for a Airbus Assembly to build the more prestigious 350-380-330...

Or build the best seller 320 and 321 319 318 .

It would be interesting to know what was best for Airbus as a whole. Presumably manufacturing narrowbody in XFW and widebody in TLS is the best, but why?

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 25):
So Hamburg destroyed an ecologically sensitive marshland to expand its runway to accomodate the 380 only to find that the 380 will no longer be manufactured there?

I bet the Hamburg citizens will be so pleased to hear what Airbus has done now

As long as jobs are present, the swamp will be soon forgotten.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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scbriml
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RE: Airbus To Build A320 Completely In Hamburg

Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:47 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 64):
The articles I have read so far in the German media say that the successor of the A320 will be completely build in Hamburg I don?t know if they have plans to build the successor in China as well.

 checkmark 

There's so much hot air in this thread about the A32x family, but this article is saying that the A32x's replacement will only be built on a single production line. It has nothing to do with China (unless they want to order a few hundred!) or moving current A320 production from TLS to FXW.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
LHStarAlliance
Topic Author
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RE: Airbus To Build A320 Completely In Hamburg

Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:51 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 48):
one particular law and people start trying to hold up Germany as a shining example of economic growth

Well it is , sure emerging countries like china or Ireland have big growth coefficients but full developed countries like Germany will never grow 10 % .
3 % is a good number .

You say Germany isn´t a example :

Germany is the biggest exporter of the world .( since 2000 before USA)
Never German companies have had so big earns .



And an example for what Germans can do is after the second WW Germany was completely destroyed , now Germany is the 3 richest , and the 2 World Power ( Forbes) .
The UE is also good for Germany but not so good for countries like Italy or Hungary as Germany import more in their countiy as they export to Germany.


As said before the German problem is the domestic market .

Read my other posts to understand why .

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 69):
There's so much hot air in this thread about the A32x family, but this article is saying that the A32x's replacement will only be built on a single production line. It has nothing to do with China (unless they want to order a few hundred!) or moving current A320 production from TLS to FXW.

I remember when Streiff suggested this in toulouse the workers and the unions
menaced with a riot

[Edited 2007-01-16 15:54:59]
Boycott The Olympic Games In Beijing !
 
Dougloid
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RE: Airbus To Build A320 Completely In Hamburg

Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:00 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 70):
And an example for what Germans can do is after the second WW Germany was completely destroyed , now Germany is the 3 richest , and the 2 World Power ( Forbes) .
The UE is also good for Germany but not so good for countries like Italy or Hungary as Germany import more in their countiy as they export to Germany.


As said before the German problem is the domestic market .

Read my other posts to understand why .

Lebensraum, anyone?


 Wink  Wink  Wink  Wink
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
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N328KF
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RE: Airbus To Build A320 Completely In Hamburg

Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:15 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 66):
As part of the deal to sell 300 X A320s to China (150 in 2005, 150 last year), Airbus have had to undertake to build and operate an assembly plant in Tientsin. One has to assume that most if not all of the 300 aircraft ordered by China will be assembled in China - although the components will no doubt continue to be manufactured in Europe.

What is the EIS for the first of these 300 A320s? The plant won't be up and running until 2009...and it was my understanding that the first batch of 150 had an EIS prior to that.
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
-Donny Miller
 
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Stitch
Posts: 26700
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RE: Airbus To Build A320 Completely In Hamburg

Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:45 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 72):
What is the EIS for the first of these 300 A320s? The plant won't be up and running until 2009...and it was my understanding that the first batch of 150 had an EIS prior to that.

The production rate for Tientsin is four per month, so either a number of planes will be coming from TLS (or XFW if the deal goes through) or China is looking at deliveries spaced out over a half-decade or so.
 
BoomBoom
Posts: 2459
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RE: Airbus To Build A320 Completely In Hamburg

Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:47 am

French Unions Doubt Airbus Assembly Switch

Quote:
French unions vowed on Monday to resist any plan to switch the assembly of Airbus's top-selling A320 to Germany as a result of restructuring.

"There is no question of sending narrow-body aircraft production to Hamburg. The management has never talked to us about this and it would probably be a problem for them to do it industrially," Jean-Francois Knepper, a Force Ouvriere union official who serves on the Airbus works council, said.

"Our production rate is due to rise from 14 planes a month to 17 in August 2007. We have more than 1,000 aircraft to deliver, so it's not possible to tinker with our organization, whatever they decide about future A350 production," he said.

"We have capacity and expertise on single-aisle planes in Toulouse and we plan to keep it that way."

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1168901444.html
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
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N328KF
Posts: 5946
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RE: Airbus To Build A320 Completely In Hamburg

Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:55 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 74):
French Unions Doubt Airbus Assembly Switch

That's because they realize what some here at airliners.net don't—without the A320, the only winner left at Toulouse would be the A330.
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
-Donny Miller
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4439
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

RE: Airbus To Build A320 Completely In Hamburg

Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:30 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 68):
It would be interesting to know what was best for Airbus as a whole. Presumably manufacturing narrowbody in XFW and widebody in TLS is the best, but why?

I think experience plays a role, and hangar capacity. TLS has always built widebodies since the very first Airbus was built, so people know how to do that and have done so for many years.

XFW was always building narrowbodies, and their assembly line is newer. So this was always designed for narrowbodies I would guess, and integrating the A320 in a line which already builds the A319 and A321 should not be a bad thing.

I personally never understood why they split up the production of the A380 anyway. I do not give a damn where they build it, as long as there are many parts built in Germany inside it  Wink

About the extension of the plant in Hamburg, I am sure they will have use the space completely sooner or later anyway, so it was not for nothing.
 
Lumberton
Posts: 4176
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:34 am

RE: Airbus To Build A320 Completely In Hamburg

Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:32 am

Well, if this happens as discussed it won't be without pain. I came across this article earlier and started this thread. Airbus To Cut 10000 Jobs-article (by Lumberton Jan 17 2007 in Civil Aviation)
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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Stitch
Posts: 26700
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Airbus To Build A320 Completely In Hamburg

Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:26 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 76):
I personally never understood why they split up the production of the A380 anyway.

Prestige. Each EU government wanted a piece of the pie and the glory.

True, some units just happened to be the best fit for the job (Brighton [?] for the wings and CASA for the composite structures), but it has to have been easier to build the A388 completely in TLS instead of sending the shells to XFW to have the interiors fitted.
 
Ruscoe
Posts: 1741
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 1999 5:41 pm

RE: Airbus To Build A320 Completely In Hamburg

Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:23 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 75):
That's because they realize what some here at airliners.net don't?without the A320, the only winner left at Toulouse would be the A330.

What you say is true but how does that fit in with Power 8 restructuring which is expected to have hamburg bare the brunt of the job losses?

Ruscoe

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