concord977
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Convair 880/990 Videos

Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:46 am

Enjoy!









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lindy field
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RE: Convair 880/990 Videos

Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:53 am

Wow, those are some great clips! I especially like the first one with the 880 in house colors departing from SAN. Thanks for posting.
 
boeing767mech
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RE: Convair 880/990 Videos

Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:54 am

Interseting videos, too bad they don't have the 50's music with them. I saw these videos on a Convair PR video. They have some really cool pictures of the testing of the first airplanes.

Side note the 880 in the first picture is N803TW which is the nose section in ACY as seen at www.convairjet.com

David
Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
 
diamond
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RE: Convair 880/990 Videos

Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:01 am

Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 2):
Side note the 880 in the first picture is N803TW which is the nose section in ACY as seen at www.convairjet.com

David

Interesting to note that ships 3, 13 and 23 are "for sale" on ebay at the moment!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Conva...8QQihZ007QQitemZ170069777365QQrdZ1
Blank.
 
concord977
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RE: Convair 880/990 Videos

Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:10 am

Quoting Diamond (Reply 3):
Interesting to note that ships 3, 13 and 23 are "for sale" on ebay at the moment!

Yeah, I'm very confused about that.

On paper, ships 3 and 13 show that they are still owned by the FAA even though the people at convairjet.com 'bought' them last year.

And someone else in Maine was supposed to have obtained the use of those 2 planes for a Museum.

Ship 23, in Mojave, was completely stripped the last time I saw it. Not one instrument was left in the cockpit.

(Edited to correct which aircraft were owned by the FAA)

[Edited 2007-01-15 21:20:04]
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boeing767mech
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RE: Convair 880/990 Videos

Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:14 am

Ship 23 was never owned by the FAA
Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
 
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United_fan
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RE: Convair 880/990 Videos

Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:22 am

I liked the 2nd one,too bad there's no audio.......
"Suspicion is a matter of opinion"
 
AirEMS
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RE: Convair 880/990 Videos

Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:40 am

Isn't the rim test by NASA kinda risky? Is there lots of magnesium on the gear?

Other than that I would have loved to have flown on one of thoes hot rods!

-Carl
If Your Dying Were Flying
 
IFlyTWA
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RE: Convair 880/990 Videos

Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:09 pm

Thank you for posting those videos!

It is my dream too see one of those machines flying. I really hope the 880s on eBay will not be scrapped.
"To express the excitement of travel" - Eero Saarinen
 
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SANFan
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RE: Convair 880/990 Videos

Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:06 pm

Great post Concord'! Thank you for the memories.

bb
 
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solnabo
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RE: Convair 880/990 Videos

Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:49 pm

@ Concord977

Thx, the best topic so far this year!!

Sadly I´ve never have fly in one  Sad

(over the moon watching Convair 880/990)

Micke//  cloudnine 
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: Convair 880/990 Videos

Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:12 am

Nice videos indeed! We'll probably never see a Convair 880/990 in flight ever again, but I wish we could. It'd be great to have a classic fleet of all old jetliners still flying...
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
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United_fan
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RE: Convair 880/990 Videos

Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:51 am

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 11):
Nice videos indeed! We'll probably never see a Convair 880/990 in flight ever again

I remember reading that the FAA has delisted the 880/990's a while ago.
"Suspicion is a matter of opinion"
 
4holer
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RE: Convair 880/990 Videos

Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:32 am

Love these videos!
I have never seen a Convair on video before.
I wish they had sound though!
Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
 
Blackbird
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RE: Convair 880/990 Videos

Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:36 am

Great footage!

Those were some awesome planes. Slick looking and really fast. They could cruise routinely at Mach .87, even redline at Mach 0.91. They were also extroardinarily sturdy, using unusually thick skin (over a half inch thick in some parts) on the fuselage and wing, which reduced the number of stringers, and provided some degree of noise attenuation. Supposedly (according to some recent discussions I've had with a person who I talked to online, who had actually flown on CV-880's several times) the CV-880's were a very smooth ride, and despite the amount of noise they made externally, they were fairly quiet inside the cabin. For an added degree of safety, the wing was fitted with three substantial spars: a CV-880 once actually sustained 6-G's during a training-flight mishap. Amazingly they couldn't find anything wrong with the plane and returned it to service.

Andrea K
 
highflier92660
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RE: Convair 880/990 Videos

Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:07 am

Those Convair 880/990s keep getting faster as the years go on. The retired American pilots who flew the 990A say they used .84 Mach most of the time. The 990s Mmo was .912 (by comparison the Boeing 747 and the Citation X are both .92 birds.) In dive tests for certification they exceeded the Mmo by .05 Mach.

As most of the aviation history buffs here know, American airlines CEO C.R. Smith originally wanted Convair to build a transcontinental .90 Mach airliner to beat the Boeing 707/ DC-8, and he wanted it with "just a few tweaks" to the original Convair 880 specifications. C.R. wrote up a contract with iron clad Mach guarantees and handed it to a desperate San Diego company eager to score big in the airliner market. Little did they know when they signed the document they would build and entirely new airplane!

The story is well known: Convair lost twice the amount that Ford lost on the Edsel. The 990 came out high on drag even with the area rule "Kucheman carrots." A re-engineered pylon and cuff modification later it became the 990A, an aircraft that could only do a sustained .90 down at altitudes which significantly raised the fuel burn rate and drastically cut the range- not the transcontinental airliner American had ordered. The longest route they ever flew the 990A was New York to Phoenix.

There are a lot of threads on these airplanes. Hopefully there are still some retired 880/990 drivers who can tell us more.
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Convair 880/990 Videos

Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:32 am

Thanks Concord----for sharing those videos! Really brought back the memories!

The 720B was just as fast---and had better range and economics.

That said, the CVs were just plain fun to fly on. I can recount many different stories from my DL 880 trips. Those were the days when the jets were still hand-flown a lot and really put through their paces. You could really feel the speed on landing and no one messed around at getting the wheels planted and the reversers deployed!

IMO I find the implication that somehow the soundproofing on a CV was superior to anything else back then amusing.
The seats forward of the wing had quite a bit of cyclic drone from the engine intakes----kind of like the "shrapnel" seats in the rear of rear-engined jets at cruise (but those GE's had a higher pitch----I can still hear that sound!)


Behind the wing the roar was so loud on take-off the window panes would rattle. (But that could also be said of a turbo-jet '8 or '707----the windows could rattle pretty bad in the back of a stretched-8 too and those were turbo-fans!) Sorry---I digress, anyway the seats aft of the wing on an 880 make the seats just aft of the wing on a 732 seem quiet on take-off by comparison.

I didn't care what the sound levels were though. I had fun!
AND if I had any regrets it was not having ever been on a CX 880 shooting the approach and landing at Kai Tak. Must have pulled some serious g's at the checkered flag! Yaaa-hooo!

Pull a tight climbing turn after take-off and you could look down on the black contrail----that you had just left!

I'd gladly "endure" another of those cross-country "Royal Service" flights again! Those were the days man!

[Edited 2007-01-19 00:39:44]
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
Blackbird
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RE: Convair 880/990 Videos

Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:06 am

Highflyer,

From what I remember, the CV-880 was capable of a Mach 0.87 cruise, and a Mmo of 0.91. To be honest, I think your 0.912 Mmo figure is for the CV-880, although I could be wrong. Keep in mind, the fact that they flew the CV990 at Mach 0.84 doesn't mean that was the maximum speed it was capable of. Originally, it was designed to cruise at a typical groundspeed (counting no tailwinds) of 635 mph, and was later reduced to 620 mph, which only achieve it only at 21,500 feet, and achieve around 580 - 590-mph at high-altitude.

Keep in mind, the CV-990 even despite only being 10 feet longer, possessing an extra 4-degrees of sweep-back, those shock-pods, and greater takeoff-thrust, the airplane was considerably heavier than the CV-880.

The CV-880 was like 185,000 pounds, the CV-880M was around 194,000 lbs: In comparison, the CV-990-30-5 and CV-990A-30-5 was between 240,000 and 247,000 lbs respectively. That's something between 46,000 and 53,000 lbs heavier than a CV-880M, and 65,000 lbs to 72,000 lbs heavier than a standard CV-880 with only 250 extra square-feet of wing area on a wing that is swept back an extra four degrees.

Additionally, the CJ-805 was a turbojet, and the CJ-805-23 was a turbofan with a bypass ratio of 2.2:1. Turbofans (particularly the higher bypass-ratio) lose greater amounts of thrust at high altitudes: Still, the CJ-805-23 engines had the same core as the regular CJ-805 plus the fan, but when you look at the takeoff T:W ratio and the cruise T:W ratio, the CV990 does have a decent T:W for it's time, but at cruise, it's T:W ratio would have fallen off more than it would if it were powered by a typical turbojet with the same thrust rating (15,800 for the 30-5, 16,500 for the 30-6 which was heavier). The engine pods because of their larger diameter, may have produced more drag as well.

Regarding the noise-levels, the person who I talked to simply said it was fairly quiet compared to the external noise produced by the engines.

-Andrea K
 
highflier92660
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RE: Convair 880/990 Videos

Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:46 pm

Blackbird, you've done some research there. A few years ago I had the opportunity to take a look at a partially photocopied Convair 990A "ops" manual from American Airlines- circa 1965. The interpolation charts and graphs show an airframe that would have greatly benefited from today's engine technology. Those General Electric aft-fan CJ-805-23 engines pooped-out a bit in the high thirties and the wing, swept 39 degrees at 25 percent mean aerodynamic chord, was not built for altitude. Down low (27,000- 29,000 ft.) the fuel flows were incredibly high compared to the P&W JT3D.

All in all, it was a sexy albeit uneconomic aircraft that increases in mystique the more time that passes. Perhaps someone like actor/aviation enthusiast John Travolta will buy and restore one of the few airframes that remain salvageable.

As an aside, I believe the cruise Mach given in Wikipedia are in fact Mmo figures. None of the retired pilots that I've talked to remember barber-poling the 990 in day-to-day airline operation.
 
Blackbird
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RE: Convair 880/990 Videos

Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:36 am

Highflyer,

Actually, most of these figures I recall off memory. But I checked them today in my Jon Proctor book, and I was pretty close. Off by a thousand pounds or two in a few areas. But in general, the general message was accurate.

For the most part, The CV-990 was SUPPOSED to be able to cruise cross-country at Mach 0.91, however the only way to achieve that speed would be to fly in the 20,000 - 22,000 foot range and you'd burn up so much fuel you probably couldn't make it cross country. As a result, CV-990 pilots rarely barber-poled the CV-990's and cruised it at a more leisurely mach number.

The CV-880 on the other hand had better high-altitude performance, lighter wing-loading, etc. Pilots often did barber-pole *these* babies around (after all, look at the speed-records they set).

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