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christao17
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TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:19 pm

In addition to the news about Don Meuang International partially reopening, there is another article in today's Bangkok Post, which says that TG may discontinue their nonstops to LAX and JFK beginning this summer:

THAI may cut nonstop flights to US
Route revamp could affect summer service

By BOONSONG KOSITCHOTETHANA

Thai Airways International is considering replacing its direct flights to the United States with one-stop services in the wake of losses and fierce competition.

The flag carrier's non-stop Bangkok-New York service is likely to be replaced with flights with stopovers in major Chinese cities such as Beijing or Shanghai, while Bangkok-Los Angeles flights would stop in South Korea.

The change in THAI's North American operation is part of a route revamp that could affect the forthcoming summer flight timetable, beginning in April. The new timetable was not expected to see any new routes being introduced, according to THAI president Apinan Sumanaseni.

Pressured by shareholders to improve yields, THAI is taking a hard look at the economics and viability of its entire system.

Fierce competition on the so-called Kangaroo route _ flights from Australia and New Zealand _ especially by Dubai-based Emirates _ may force THAI to cut flight frequencies, he said.

Part of the revamp also involves changing the type of aircraft used. For instance, it may use the B747-400 jumbo jet, A340-600 or B777-ER on US-bound services instead of the A340-500 that holds only 200 passengers.

The higher capacity aircraft and the stopovers would help THAI to shore up profitability on those routes.

Capt Apinan conceded that THAI stood to lose some appeal by dropping its non-stop North American flights, directed over the North Pole, but it was more worried about the financial burdens these services entailed.

THAI operates five direct flights a week to New York and the same number on its Bangkok-Los Angeles route. Its services to Moscow and Johannesburg introduced last year were doing fine, he noted.
...

Along with making efforts to reduce operating costs and improve profitability, Capt Apinan said THAI would proceed with the previously proposed establishment of a new wholly owned airline subsidiary, tentatively known as Royal Orchid Airlines, or Euarng Luang in Thai.

The new airline would take over THAI's domestic operation, which has been suffering losses, using a more cost-effective and less complicated operating model.

The new carrier will be positioned between the conventional premium airline and the low-cost carrier. With the creation of the new airline, THAI would become a fully-fledged international carrier.




  • Just last year they increased frequencies on the non-stops, right? I would have thought that was a positive sign but perhaps not.

  • If they get rid of the non-stops, do they sell off their A340-500 fleet? No need for that range anymore, is there?

  • Does anyone see SQ making similar cuts?

  • And the Royal Orchid Airlines idea is back. Is there really a need for TG to have two domestic airlines (Nok Air being the other)? The high prices they charge for their domestic services really don't make sense when they offer nothing different that their competitors.
More than a dozen years flying in and around Asia...
 
airpearl
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:36 pm

Quoting Christao17 (Thread starter):
Just last year they increased frequencies on the non-stops, right? I would have thought that was a positive sign but perhaps not.


If they get rid of the non-stops, do they sell off their A340-500 fleet? No need for that range anymore, is there?

That's sad news indeed if it happens. TG's A345s are premium planes indeed with Y classat 36in pitch and Premium Economy at 42in. Don't see a role for them within the TG network - perhaps they'll go to one of the fast expanding Mid east carriers: EK, EY or QR?
 
aerohottie
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:35 pm

Quoting Airpearl (Reply 1):
TG's A345s are premium planes indeed with Y classat 36in pitch and Premium Economy at 42in

Perhaps TG will reconfigure the aircraft with a more sensible Y 32in pitch and Y+ with a 40in pitch. C pitch could also be tightened a little. Then the A345 could be used as conventional aircraft as opposed to being a premium aircraft.
What?
 
BigTom
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:51 pm

Quoting Airpearl (Reply 1):
That's sad news indeed if it happens. TG's A345s are premium planes indeed with Y classat 36in pitch and Premium Economy at 42in. Don't see a role for them within the TG network - perhaps they'll go to one of the fast expanding Mid east carriers: EK, EY or QR?

 checkmark 

Royal Orchid may find the going uphill with a pure domestic operation against the likes of Nok Air.

Hope TG gets its act together soon. Always been one of my preferred choices.
Cheers
 
anawat
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:56 pm

Way back when, 20 years ? ago, there were two Thai airlines: Thai International, and Thai Airways (domestic). Then Government ordered them to merge...

Now ...

Back to future for TG.

There are many problems with TG: too many employees, staff quality are inconsistent, too many types of aircraft, political interference.

However, I really fail to see how splitting up the airlines to inter and domestic ones will solve any of those issues.
 
SkyvanMan
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:58 pm

Thats horrible I just used the BKK-LAX service and on the way out it was totally full except for few middle seats in premium economy. On the way back economy had to be at least 50+% full PE 80 and business was at least 75 from what I could tell. I only flew them because it was direct and had PE if they go to a different aircraft they won't have that and will lose customers. All the people I talked to on my flights only flew Thai either because it was non-stop or becuase of PE, no one flew it because of any other reason. If they change the route's they'll lose all the people I met and myself (if I ever go to thailand in the future) as customers. I think this is a pretty bad decision.
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Ryanair!!!
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:40 pm

Quoting Christao17 (Thread starter):
The new carrier will be positioned between the conventional premium airline and the low-cost carrier. With the creation of the new airline, THAI would become a fully-fledged international carrier.

Now we are stepping back in time aren't we... back to the days of Thai Airways International and Thai Airways - now in the guise of Royal Orchid Airlines.

Meanwhile, having these nonstop flights to the US is their ace-card, or their one-up competitive edge against their rivals. While I think they should endeavour to keep these 2 sectors, the board members at TG obviously think otherwise. So they might know something I don't.

Somehow I feel that they should improve yields on some other sectors to try and shore up these flights to the US because it is such a waste for such routes to go down the drain. A loss of loyal business travellers would be the first to go and who would they be flocking to? SQ... I can suddenly feel SQ secretly smiling now in anticipation of the day the nonstop finally cease from BKK.

Still, it will be a costly affair trying to re-configure the 345s and re-deploy them elsewhere. They might end up with more aircraft than they require!
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christao17
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:43 pm

Quoting BigTom (Reply 3):
Royal Orchid may find the going uphill with a pure domestic operation against the likes of Nok Air.

Considering that TG owns Nok!

Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 6):
Meanwhile, having these nonstop flights to the US is their ace-card, or their one-up competitive edge against their rivals. While I think they should endeavour to keep these 2 sectors, the board members at TG obviously think otherwise. So they might know something I don't.

And it is a good, although infrequently-marketed, competitive edge: if you fly from anywhere in the "upper" southeast Asia area and have to connect through SIN, you have several hours of backtracking. BKK makes for a more central connection point. Of course, HKG is on the way, too.

Judging from the prices they've been charging for the non-stops, they seem to generally be commanding a premium even in Economy over the one-stops from ICN or NRT.

Here's an idea, though:

What if TG changed the nonstops to be to SFO and either ORD or IAD, in order to build better code-share and connection possibilities? Right now, the JFK and LAX flights rely mostly on O&D traffic which, while significant, isn't enough to fill the plane profitably.

Switching to SFO from LAX and retiming the flight so it left BKK at about 10:30 am and arrived SFO about 11:00 am would allow good connections into BKK from throughout much of SE Asia (as well as the overnight flights from India) and from SFO to most of the Western US.

Switching to ORD from JFK, the flight would need less retiming: depart BKK about 1:00 am and arrive ORD about 5:00 am, then return about 11:00 am arriving BKK 15:00.

Thoughts?
More than a dozen years flying in and around Asia...
 
kappel
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:22 pm

Quoting Airpearl (Reply 1):
That's sad news indeed if it happens. TG's A345s are premium planes indeed with Y classat 36in pitch and Premium Economy at 42in. Don't see a role for them within the TG network - perhaps they'll go to one of the fast expanding Mid east carriers: EK, EY or QR?

How about giving them more seats and deploying them on thinner european flights, is that not an option?
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HB-IWC
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:23 pm

The seemingly unceasing string of new strategies by succeeding management teams of Thai Airways is becoming more and more ludicrous. Fleet planning as well as hub and network structure have never been the strongest point of TG and I do agree that a thorough strategic rethink is necessary yet the proposed dichotomy of the company and the imminent dual hub structure between Suvarnabhumi and Don Muang are definitely not part of the long term sustainability of the airline.

It's time for the Thai Government to get its hands of TG, bring in a professional management team and give Thailand the professionally managed airline it deserves. Calling Bangkok its home, TG has the potential to be so much more than what it is today, yet rampant mismanagement has over and over thwarted this potential.
 
Nimish
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:28 pm

Quoting Christao17 (Reply 7):
Switching to SFO from LAX and retiming the flight so it left BKK at about 10:30 am and arrived SFO about 11:00 am would allow good connections into BKK from throughout much of SE Asia (as well as the overnight flights from India) and from SFO to most of the Western US.

This would be super sweet!! They've certainly lost the business of the 15-20 round/trips BLR-SFO per year from folks in my company due to the re-timing of flights, which now make it a 18 hour layover in both directions! If they could re-time to fit in with India flights and re-route the flight to fly to SFO, they should have a good market right there (at least until the next set start non-stops from BLR-SFO!).
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HB-IWC
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:32 pm

Quoting Nimish (Reply 10):
If they could re-time to fit in with India flights and re-route the flight to fly to SFO

Just a bit of retiming of flights will unlikely to the job. TG needs a radical rethink of its network and BKK hub structure in order to setup a more streamlined and symmetric operation, allowing for vastly improved connectivity.
 
travellin'man
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:06 pm

I'll be bummed if this goes through. The LAX non stop makes my trips to/from Chittagong, Bangladesh so much faster (only a 4 hour layover in BKK), and I was looking forward to going the next time a little faster by taking the A345.
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warreng24
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:18 pm

Quoting Christao17 (Reply 7):
Switching to ORD from JFK, the flight would need less retiming: depart BKK about 1:00 am and arrive ORD about 5:00 am, then return about 11:00 am arriving BKK 15:00.

Agree 100%.

TG needs to further capitalize on its already good relations with fellow Star Alliance carriers in North America. UA's strong ORD hub and additional code-shares with UA on flights East of ORD would definately help improve yields and loads.

TG should continue its presence at LAX. The City of Angels, California is home to the 2nd largest Thai population (City of Angels, Thailand is #1). Again, TG should capitalize on its ties with UA to improve code-shares on UA's flights east of LAX. A code-share to SFO/SEA/PHX/SAN/DEN/LAS/DFW etc would definately improve loads.

An improvement to the customer experience (to help set TG apart) would also be if TG could use one of the UA gates in LAX Terminal 6 for departures/arrivals. The same holds true for departures/arrivals into ORD- TG should use tha UA terminal for ease of code-share connections.
 
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:38 pm

The A-345 is a premium product, you can make money with it if you have a lot of business travellers who want to pay a premium to fly non stop, let's say Emirates, Qatar Airways or Singapore Airlines.
Bangkok is more a leisure destination without the good connections to Australia which SQ offer. VFR and holiday traffic can't fill the direct NYC and LAX flights for a good price.
I guess indeed Thai is better off trying to sell the A-340s to Qatar, Etihad etc. and packing the new 777s on 1-stop flights instead.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
PVG
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:48 pm

Quoting Christao17 (Thread starter):
The flag carrier's non-stop Bangkok-New York service is likely to be replaced with flights with stopovers in major Chinese cities such as Beijing or Shangha

This is a great idea if you ask me!

Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 6):
What if TG changed the nonstops to be to SFO and either ORD or IAD, in order to build better code-share and connection possibilities? Right now, the JFK and LAX flights rely mostly on O&D traffic which, while significant, isn't enough to fill the plane profitably.

Switching to SFO from LAX and retiming the flight so it left BKK at about 10:30 am and arrived SFO about 11:00 am would allow good connections into BKK from throughout much of SE Asia (as well as the overnight flights from India) and from SFO to most of the Western US.

Switching to ORD from JFK, the flight would need less retiming: depart BKK about 1:00 am and arrive ORD about 5:00 am, then return about 11:00 am arriving BKK 15:00.

Good idea as well!
 
zvezda
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:54 pm

Quoting Christao17 (Thread starter):
The flag carrier's non-stop Bangkok-New York service is likely to be replaced with flights with stopovers in major Chinese cities such as Beijing or Shanghai,

Do TG have the rights to carry fifth freedom traffic between China and the States?

Quoting Christao17 (Thread starter):
THAI operates five direct flights a week to New York and the same number on its Bangkok-Los Angeles route.

This is the problem. ULH service is high-cost. Therefore, it must be high yield. Yields are never high with less than daily service. TG were nuts to even try this less frequently than daily.
 
jacobin777
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:18 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 9):
It's time for the Thai Government to get its hands of TG, bring in a professional management team and give Thailand the professionally managed airline it deserves. Calling Bangkok its home, TG has the potential to be so much more than what it is today, yet rampant mismanagement has over and over thwarted this potential.

We've seen with with other various government controlled carriers such as PK and MH....

These companies are not efficient one bit...

While its fine for the government to have a small unintrusive stake in an air carrier to reap in some profits...too many governments are just too inept, corrupt, etc. to run a carrier efficiently.
"Up the Irons!"
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:29 am

Quoting Christao17 (Reply 7):
Switching to SFO from LAX and retiming the flight so it left BKK at about 10:30 am and arrived SFO about 11:00 am would allow good connections into BKK from throughout much of SE Asia (as well as the overnight flights from India) and from SFO to most of the Western US.

It might work to switch from JFK to ORD because UA has practically no service to JFK and ORD is a huge station. However UA has hubs in SFO and LAX, SFO is a bigger station for them, but not by that much. The O&D is a not nearly as much at SFO as it is in LAX. Taking both those factors into consideration, I think that would be a bad Idea.
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flydreamliner
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:32 am

Well, to them, it's not about having a good business, but rather an airline that serves what the government sees as the people's best interest. Suppose it's just a different way of looking at things.

You'll notice that of the 'five star airlines,' some respective government has their hands all over most of them....

As for Thai... the idea of starting an LCC is a good one, I think. The US routes - cutting them would be a mistake. As it stands, I'd fly Thai just because of them going to thailand, and i think a lot of other people are like minded. Can't they fit more than 200 seats on an A345? There is no reason that aircraft shouldn't be able to seat nearly 300 with ease... there are A343s flying around with way more seats. I realize that their huge seating space on these jets is comfortable, but it could cut down and still provide good enough comfort, or at least to the same levels as their 747s/A346/773s do.
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christao17
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:36 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 18):
However UA has hubs in SFO and LAX, SFO is a bigger station for them, but not by that much. The O&D is a not nearly as much at SFO as it is in LAX. Taking both those factors into consideration, I think that would be a bad Idea

Hmm... not discounting the much larger Thai population in LA, which is a big factor, I think UA offers superior connectivity through SFO than LAX. I don't have the specific numbers but thing that UA's operation from SFO is much, much larger than through LAX in terms of flights, passengers, and destinations served.

In either case, I would imagine that the TG management team has considered these details before making any decisions.
More than a dozen years flying in and around Asia...
 
georgiaame
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airl

Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:42 am

I have to echo Skyvanman's statements. I've flown LAX to Singapore several times, both in SQ PE non stop service, and using connections in Japan. The non stop flight with premium service is a hands down winner. Even though a 15+ hour non stop flight sounds like a horror, with good service on board, it is actually a very easy flight. And it is significantly shorter than the somewhere in Asia stopover run. Not that I have any say in the matter, but even with a reduced capacity, that 345 run has to be a cash cow and should continue. My 2 bhats. I was actually planning on using it on a future next trip to Thailand.
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LAXdude1023
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:59 am

Quoting Christao17 (Reply 20):
I don't have the specific numbers but thing that UA's operation from SFO is much, much larger than through LAX in terms of flights, passengers, and destinations served.

Im not sure about number of flights, but as far as destinations served, they are about the same. SFO might have one or 2 extra. They both serve destinations that the other doesnt. I dont think SFO makes as an attractive gateway for TG as does LAX. When taking into consideration O&D + Hub flights, LAX is the clear winner.
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jfk777
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:12 am

JFK is not the best non west coast US city for THai to fly to, Chicago is far better with the UA's hub and connections, just look at how many flight to Asia UA fills out of ORD. SFO is better for the same reason as ORD, another UA hub. But why could servcie be kept to LAX with Thai flying to more then 2 US cities ? Couldn't Thai fly the A345 nonstop to ORD and SFO with the onestop VFR traffic to LAX ?

Thai has flown to LAX via Osaka, Taipei, Seuol and perhaps other points, and seems to have never had a Yield premuim like Cathay's or Singapore's.
 
sparkingwave
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:16 am

Sadly, it looks as if the A340-500 is going the way of the 747SP. Enough range, but not enough capacity...
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airpearl
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:16 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 19):
The US routes - cutting them would be a mistake. As it stands, I'd fly Thai just because of them going to thailand, and i think a lot of other people are like minded.

TG do not seem to market well what is essentially a premium service that rivals SQ on their nonstops to the US. I flew the route last Sept/Oct from KUL to JFK via BKK, deciding to chose TG over SQ because of the superior comfort in PE and also swayed by their huge billboards advertising the new routes all over Kuala Lumpur. Besides, I do like TG quite a lot. Yet believe it or not, TG didn't even have a PE fare published for the route! My travel agent had to pester their KUL office a number of times "to get a fare" from Bangkok hq. They eventually did get a fare (that's almost the same as SQ's Exec Economy) but this is no way to market a premium route. A pax less determined to fly them would have spent his money on SQ already. I wonder how many have done so already. What a shame.
 
warren747sp
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:34 am

Not if they have waited for the 772LR, then they would have been able to make money instead of stuck with a low capacity craft. What idiot made that purchase decision?
747SP
 
warreng24
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:09 am

Quoting Warren747sp (Reply 26):
Not if they have waited for the 772LR, then they would have been able to make money instead of stuck with a low capacity craft. What idiot made that purchase decision?

IIRC, there was a debate on the A340 purchase here on A.net when TG announced it.

Apparently it was part of an agreement to appease the EU in order to prevent the EU from banning Thai shrimp imports (due to inadequate inspections).

Please feel free to correct me on this one.


Also, the A340-500 model holds a few more passengers than the 777-200LR does. I think that the A345 is 222 feet long and holds 313 in a 3 cabin config, the the 777LR is 209 feet long and holds 303 in the 3 cabin config.
 
stirling
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:31 am

Quoting Christao17 (Reply 7):
Here's an idea, though:

What if TG changed the nonstops to be to SFO and either ORD or IAD, in order to build better code-share and connection possibilities? Right now, the JFK and LAX flights rely mostly on O&D traffic which, while significant, isn't enough to fill the plane profitably.

Switching to SFO from LAX and retiming the flight so it left BKK at about 10:30 am and arrived SFO about 11:00 am would allow good connections into BKK from throughout much of SE Asia (as well as the overnight flights from India) and from SFO to most of the Western US.

Switching to ORD from JFK, the flight would need less retiming: depart BKK about 1:00 am and arrive ORD about 5:00 am, then return about 11:00 am arriving BKK 15:00.

Thoughts?

I think it's a smashing idea!
But who are we?
 Wink

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 9):
It's time for the Thai Government to get its hands of TG, bring in a professional management team and give Thailand the professionally managed airline it deserves.

But will it ever happen?

Right now, the entire situation in Thailand is one for concern. The BKK airport split; the government, difficult times.

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 13):
TG needs to further capitalize on its already good relations with fellow Star Alliance carriers in North America.

Yes. Because as I thought, the purpose of the Alliance was to leverage the strengths of a worldwide network to individual advantage.
United being one of the world's Top5 airlines, and to avoid their major hubs, well, doesn't make much sense to me.
But like I've already mentioned, who are we to question?

Quoting Christao17 (Thread starter):
Fierce competition on the so-called Kangaroo route _ flights from Australia and New Zealand _ especially by Dubai-based Emirates _ may force THAI to cut flight frequencies, he said.

Pardon me for a second, in a discussion about North American flights, why did this spokesmen bring up Emirates?
How do they effect Thai's flights to LAX and JFK?
0% of those in BKK and the surrounding area are flying BKK-DXB-JFK, or better yet, BKK-DXB-JFK-(LAX), a city Emirates does not even fly to.
Another case of Emirates being the scapegoat for the woes of the industry by those who do not know how to compete.
Tragicomic.

Quoting Nimish (Reply 10):
They've certainly lost the business of the 15-20 round/trips BLR-SFO per year from folks in my company due to the re-timing of flights, which now make it a 18 hour layover in both directions! If they could re-time to fit in with India flights and re-route the flight to fly to SFO, they should have a good market right there

Seeing that this area of the world is an untapped gold-mine, but for the third time, we're all just mad, the leadership of TG knows full well what they are doing!

When I was back in Northern California, my many friends from India never took Thai, at the time I didn't ask why; I didn't think about it; but I did wonder why they would double connect on Singapore, seeing how far south it was....must have been price? Timings? Singapore Girls?

It has been a few years, but I seem to remember most my friends would use KE(BOM), CI(DEL), SQ(BLR, MAA, HYD) or UA to HKG or NRT, and on to someone else from there.
BUT Never TG to BKK, were don't even more connections exist?
Doesn't Indian Airlines have quite a few flights from BKK that could be interlined on to India?

Missed opportunities
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jfr
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:52 am

Quoting Christao17 (Reply 7):

Here's an idea, though:

What if TG changed the nonstops to be to SFO and either ORD or IAD, in order to build better code-share and connection possibilities? Right now, the JFK and LAX flights rely mostly on O&D traffic which, while significant, isn't enough to fill the plane profitably.

Excellent idea, since both are powerful Star hubs. Problem is that changing to ORD only saves 115 nm! Saving LAX in a one-stop capacity is also a good idea.
 
anawat
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:03 am

SFO competition is firece for asian route.

SQ has 2 daily flight with good connection timings.
Especially on SQ.1, you can connect in HKG or even SIN to almost any final
destination in asia.

CX has 1 daily flight.

Not to mention UA, ANA, JAL.

I also think that there are a lot less Thais living in bay area than los angeles
area.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 5954
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:21 am

Quoting Anawat (Reply 30):
SFO competition is firece for asian route.

Its not nearly as fierce as it is LAX. LAX has more asian flights and more asian carriers. This is the reason UA has their asian hub in SFO as opposed to LAX, not nearly as much competition. I do think LAX is a better option for TG than SFO. LA has a much larger Thai population, they do have a hub for UA here as well (and its not that much smaller than SFO, the number of North American destinations served is about the same), not to mention the O&D towers above SFO.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
zvezda
Posts: 8886
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:53 am

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 27):
I think that the A345 is 222 feet long and holds 313 in a 3 cabin config, the the 777LR is 209 feet long and holds 303 in the 3 cabin config.

I don't believe anyone operates the A340-500 with 313 seats. SQ was able to fit in only 181. The idea that it seats more than the 777-200LR is funny, considering its cabin is smaller.
 
kappel
Posts: 1836
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:48 pm

RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:01 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 32):
I don't believe anyone operates the A340-500 with 313 seats. SQ was able to fit in only 181. The idea that it seats more than the 777-200LR is funny, considering its cabin is smalle

SQ traded seats for range. If TG were to redeploy the a345's to shorter routes, or make intermediate stops as proposed, there is no reason why TG can't fit at least 270-280 seats in the a345.
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
blrsea
Posts: 1928
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:11 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 28):

Doesn't Indian Airlines have quite a few flights from BKK that could be interlined on to India?

As Nimish mentioned, the lack of connectivity is what prevents many Indians from taking TG. At one time, I know people who flew BLR-BKK-NRT-SEA/SFO with BLR-BKK-NRT on TG and onwards to SEA/SFO through UA. However, on the return journey, there was a 22 hour wait of one had to take TG.
 
warreng24
Posts: 574
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:12 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 32):
I don't believe anyone operates the A340-500 with 313 seats. SQ was able to fit in only 181. The idea that it seats more than the 777-200LR is funny, considering its cabin is smaller.

Source for that data was the wikipedia. Didn't feel like digging through the Airbus or Boeing site for details on it.

Maybe someone can dig it up? I'd think that the seat data is based on a 31" pitch in Y.
 
kappel
Posts: 1836
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:48 pm

RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:31 am

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 35):
Source for that data was the wikipedia. Didn't feel like digging through the Airbus or Boeing site for details on it.

Those are the Boeing and Airbus numbers. And they are also never real world numbers. Except for narrowbodies. IIRC AC is the airline with the most seats on the a345 with 267. EK has 258 in them.
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
zvezda
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:14 am

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 35):
I'd think that the seat data is based on a 31" pitch in Y.

That's not wildly unrealistic. The wildly unrealistic part is approximately 40" pitch in business class and 60" pitch in first class. These days 60" pitch is typical for business class.
 
flydreamliner
Posts: 1928
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:05 am

RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:20 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 28):
Quoting Christao17 (Reply 7):
Here's an idea, though:

What if TG changed the nonstops to be to SFO and either ORD or IAD, in order to build better code-share and connection possibilities? Right now, the JFK and LAX flights rely mostly on O&D traffic which, while significant, isn't enough to fill the plane profitably.

Switching to SFO from LAX and retiming the flight so it left BKK at about 10:30 am and arrived SFO about 11:00 am would allow good connections into BKK from throughout much of SE Asia (as well as the overnight flights from India) and from SFO to most of the Western US.

Switching to ORD from JFK, the flight would need less retiming: depart BKK about 1:00 am and arrive ORD about 5:00 am, then return about 11:00 am arriving BKK 15:00.

Thoughts?

I think it's a smashing idea!

I would agree. Even if ORD or IAD (i would fly it to ORD) don't offer the O and D markets that JFK and LAX do, the very powerful UA/Star Alliance hubs there would certainly open these routes up and keep them flying full, but Thai does need to reconfigure those A345s with more seats. If they went to say, a 33 or 34" pitch Y section, they'd fit more on there for sure, and perhaps even a few less seats up front (half of that aircraft is premium seats, which is great if you had o and d markets with enough premium traffic on either end to support it, but clearly that isn't the case, if they are looking at yanking it.

Quoting Anawat (Reply 30):
I also think that there are a lot less Thais living in bay area than los angeles
area.

Maybe so, but the SFO hub offers way more connectivity options. LAX clearly isn't working for them.... TG flying into lax is like a oneworld airline flying into IAH and not DFW.

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 35):
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 32):
I don't believe anyone operates the A340-500 with 313 seats. SQ was able to fit in only 181. The idea that it seats more than the 777-200LR is funny, considering its cabin is smaller.

Source for that data was the wikipedia. Didn't feel like digging through the Airbus or Boeing site for details on it.

Maybe someone can dig it up? I'd think that the seat data is based on a 31" pitch in Y.

While it is true, the A345 has a slightly longer cabin, it is also narrower. The 772LR has a higher capacity, assuming 9 abreast Y, and a WAY higher capacity using emirates style 10 abreast Y (which still offers 17.2" pitch, similar to many Y seats on A340)

Moreover, piling pax on to any aircraft will start to impact its range... in this aspect, the 772LR has a longer range, and higher payload capacity to begin with, which also works in its favor.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:22 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 32):

I don't believe anyone operates the A340-500 with 313 seats. SQ was able to fit in only 181. The idea that it seats more than the 777-200LR is funny, considering its cabin is smaller.

Widebodyphoto has the A345 configured with more seats than the B777-200LR..but as you know Zvezda, the CASM, SFC, cargo, etc. numbers aren't even remotely close between the A345 and -200LR..

http://theaviationspecialist.com/ulh_drm_3.gif
"Up the Irons!"
 
SJCRRPAX
Posts: 961
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:29 am

RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:26 am

Didn't they buy 6 A-380's? I think this will be one of the problems for owners of very large aircraft. How do you adjust your fleet to match demand when the airplane becomes too large?
 
zvezda
Posts: 8886
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:34 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 39):
Widebodyphoto has the A345 configured with more seats than the B777-200LR

He's showing the manufacturers' claimed seating.

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 40):
Didn't they buy 6 A-380's? I think this will be one of the problems for owners of very large aircraft. How do you adjust your fleet to match demand when the airplane becomes too large?

That's one of the big risks of a VLA. When that happens the only option is to park some or all of them.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:38 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 41):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 39):
Widebodyphoto has the A345 configured with more seats than the B777-200LR

He's showing the manufacturers' claimed seating.

I was only referencing his values... Wink

Regardless, rest of my comments stand... Smile

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 41):
hat's one of the big risks of a VLA. When that happens the only option is to park some or all of them.

TG could send extra cargo such as shrimp in the belly..wait, the A380 pax version could even barely do that..... duck  stirthepot 
"Up the Irons!"
 
zvezda
Posts: 8886
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:47 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 42):
TG could send extra cargo such as shrimp in the belly..wait, the A380 pax version could even barely do that.....

I'm sure the WhaleJet could carry one shrimp in its belly. Nice symbolism that.  Smile
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airl

Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:51 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 43):

I'm sure the WhaleJet could carry one shrimp in its belly. Nice symbolism that.  Smile

 rotfl ...actually Zvezda, to be honest..I think its quite sad to see how poor pax+cargo capabilities on the A380 actually is....just goes to show how structurally inefficient the plane really is....
"Up the Irons!"
 
zvezda
Posts: 8886
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:04 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 44):
...actually Zvezda, to be honest..I think its quite sad to see how poor pax+cargo capabilities on the A380 actually is....just goes to show how structurally inefficient the plane really is....

It's very sad. 10 years ago, when the WhaleJet was called A3XX and it wasn't clear whether or not it would be built, I hoped Airbus wouldn't build it because I was confident they would lose many billions on it -- and at that time I had no idea the structural efficiency would be so poor. Sometimes I hate to be right.
 
User avatar
malaysia
Posts: 2644
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RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:09 am

Reminds me of this VA that wanted to mess with TG on US routes in a fantasy sense

There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airl

Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:26 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 45):

It's very sad. 10 years ago, when the WhaleJet was called A3XX and it wasn't clear whether or not it would be built, I hoped Airbus wouldn't build it because I was confident they would lose many billions on it -- and at that time I had no idea the structural efficiency would be so poor. Sometimes I hate to be right.

I think people are finally beginning to understand what the "anti-A380" people have been saying on A.net for years (at least I hope)..

Its not the fact I "hate" the A380..its the fact it was a plane built mostly out of hubris and arrogance (I know fellow A.netter Astutement will disagree with me on this point).....

Not only will the A380 program itself lose $billions (IMHO), but it has costed Airbus $billions in lost opportunities......that is something which can't be denied..the A380 program has taken a lot of resources away from other projects...both intellectually as well as financially...

Not to mention, it was the last new plane built on "old" technology...this plane is basically a "has been" even before EIS...that's a scary thought......and the multiple delays hasn't helped it any..

I'm not saying that it won't do well for the carriers which have purchased them because it certainly will be profitable for the SQ's, QF's, EK's of the world.. but the plane is not flexible enough to warrant a carrier to spend billions on a few frames, especially when they can get B777's, A330's, B787's, and A350's..planes which will be more flexible and have better unit costs than the A380..

Cheers..
"Up the Irons!"
 
bphendri
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:18 am

RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:03 am

Quoting Christao17 (Reply 7):
Considering that TG owns Nok!

LOL

Seriously though.

Why does the thought of non stop to BKK sound like punishment? The nice thing about one stop flught is that you get to get off the plane for an hour or two.

All the flights I have ever taken have stopped in either RKSI, or RJBB and I did not mind the couple of hours to go strech my legs, and look at gorgeous Japanese gate attendnants  Smile

I however agree about KSFO, I flew out of there last year on Asiana and in my humble oppinion it is must less hasle free then KLAX, especially coming back through customs!
 
Zone1
Posts: 895
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:47 am

RE: TG May Discontinue US Nonstops, Start New Airline

Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:47 am

Quoting Christao17 (Reply 7):
What if TG changed the nonstops to be to SFO and either ORD or IAD, in order to build better code-share and connection possibilities? Right now, the JFK and LAX flights rely mostly on O&D traffic which, while significant, isn't enough to fill the plane profitably.

Not only that, but they might be able to do BKK-SFO on a 744 instead of an A340-500. BKK-SFO is 121 nm longer than UA's HKG-ORD. It would be coming into SFO on fumes, but even with weight restrictions it might give a better yield than the current A340-500 flights.
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