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manni
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BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:03 pm

BA (unnamed) senior executives have told the English paper, The Times, that BA is considering an all Airbus fleet. However, according to analysts (unnamed) Boeing will be the likely winner of the fleet renewal contract. An order is expected in 3 months for up to 135 longhaul aircraft.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,5-2553123,00.html

"Historically, BA’s long-haul fleet has been exclusively Boeing — mainly the 747 and the 777 — but senior executives have told The Times that the airline is considering shifting to an all-Airbus fleet."

"Analysts said yesterday that Boeing remained the likely winner, but a competitive bid from Airbus would force Boeing to offer a more attractive price."
 
NW727251ADV
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:10 pm

Soooooo BA is going to replace a massive fleet of 767s, 777s, and 747s with what??? A306s & A330s to replace the 767s & 777s for the time being considering the A350 is nowhere near ready to enter service??? Or A340-600s which are subpar compared to the competition and would probably be much costlier than operating a 77W??? Or maybe wait a fews years to get a massive fleet of A380s even though BA has (until now) stated that the A380 may have an over-capacity issue for the airline???
NWA   N O R T H W E S T A I R L I N E S
 
osiris30
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:14 pm

Quoting Manni (Thread starter):
"Analysts said yesterday that Boeing remained the likely winner, but a competitive bid from Airbus would force Boeing to offer a more attractive price."

Welcome to negotiation. I read that as 'Let's leak something to the press to get a better deal from Boeing, who we've already selected internally as the supplier, but don't let them know that'.

Sorry but as the post above me stated, Airbus really doesn't have the product line to offer 1 for 1 replacements for BAs current fleet. The 340 is not attractive if you are looking at a FUTURE fleet replacement. The 350 is a ways out (I don't know BA's timing, but the 767 is getting long in the tooth, and the 330 would seem a foolish investment unless leased short-term).

The 380... well... Airbus (or at least some of their supporters LOL) claim they don't compete with the 748, so I'm guessing you can't really call it a 747-4 replacement either.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
IADLHR
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:22 pm

An Airbus fleet would indeed make things quite interesting in many ways, However, I like others, dont think it will happen.

It has been reported and speculated on various threads, over time, that one of the reasons the US never renounced Bermuda II was that BA always had Boeing as their supplier, at least for the longhaul fleet. Now if BA dumped Boeing and went to Airbus, would the US finally renounce Bermuda II? Possibly, it could get quite interesting. However, in the end BA will go with Boeing.
 
manni
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:25 pm

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 2):
I read that as 'Let's leak something to the press to get a better deal from Boeing, who we've already selected internally as the supplier, but don't let them know that'.

Do you really think the manufacturers are that stupid that they would fall for such a game.

Quoting NW727251ADV (Reply 1):
even though BA has (until now) stated that the A380 may have an over-capacity issue for the airline???


Did you read the article?

"The airline rejected the A380 seven years ago when it was launched, saying that the aircraft did not fit with its plans. However, growth in the airline market could now make the A380 viable, BA executives said."

Quoting NW727251ADV (Reply 1):
considering the A350 is nowhere near ready to enter service???

Please read or even reread the article.

"By bridging the order BA will also be able to wait until the next generation of aircraft is available. This means that it will be choosing between the Boeing 787 Dreamliner and the Airbus A350 and between the 747-8 and the A380 � none of which is in commercial operation."

Quoting NW727251ADV (Reply 1):
Soooooo BA is going to replace a massive fleet of 767s, 777s, and 747s with what???

If it has to be an all Airbus fleet a mix of A330s, A350XWB's and A380s will do the job just fine.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 2):
The 380... well... Airbus (or at least some of their supporters LOL) claim they don't compete with the 748, so I'm guessing you can't really call it a 747-4 replacement either.

Increase capacity with the A380 and decrease with the A350 or other aircraft. Just as SIA has been doing. They could also opt to do a LH with both the A380 and 748I.
 
A388
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:54 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 4):
Do you really think the manufacturers are that stupid that they would fall for such a game.

It doesn't have to do with stupidity but negotiation tactics. If you want a better offer and you know you are in a strong position, these type of business tactics might well be common practice. BA knows they are in a strong position for negotiations with both Boeing and Airbus as BA is one of the few major airlines left that has not selected any aircraft type yet for their fleet renewal for the coming years. Boeing and Airbus have their eyes on BA for a long time now I think and I wouldn't be surprised they will do everything to get the order, one way or the other. BA can play them against each other because of their strong negotiating position, in my opinion. They have a very large fleet of which a lot of aircraft will need replacement in the coming years (4-10 years). BA will probably place a very large order because of this...

A388
 
flydreamliner
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:20 pm

i kind of assumed it was a given that Boeing would continue to be the provider of BA's long-haulers.

They just make it competitive so that they get a better deal.

I mean, I didn't find it so significant that BA (or UA even, for that matter) bought the A320, at the time they bought it, Boeing's offering, 737 Classic, simply was way outclassed by A320. Had they both bought five years ago, maybe it would have been different, I don't know.

But I can't imagine BA would go with Airbus.

However, the GE engines only on 748 might bother BA.... though they did buy GE powered 777s, i guess we'll see.

BA is the airline the more recent collusion between Boeing and GE would alienate, so this should be the test of this recent GE exclusivity.

737 CFM (GE) exclusive
748 is GE exclusive
772LR/773ER are GE exclusive.... frankly given this trend, I'm pleasantly surprised RR is an option on 787.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
osiris30
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:20 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 4):
Do you really think the manufacturers are that stupid that they would fall for such a game.

Pretend you are Boeing or Airbus.. can you afford to take a chance and call their bluff?
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:29 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 4):
Do you really think the manufacturers are that stupid that they would fall for such a game.

Yes, I have seen it done from the inside and it happens all the time. Negotiation is an art and like war and love all is fair.
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
jacobin777
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:35 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 6):

However, the GE engines only on 748 might bother BA.... though they did buy GE powered 777s, i guess we'll see.

FlyDreamliner...BA recently signed a multi-billion $ multi-year service contract deal with GE..so I don't think it will play too much of a part in negotiations (or at least as large as it would have been had they not signed the contract)...also, it has been shown that traditional RR-based carriers (i.e.-such as CX, EK) do not mind having GE's underneath them if the ROI is worth it...


edit:

Also, BA has 777 slots reserved and would certainly lose those deposits if it went to "an all Airbus fleet"..

I think it will go mostly Boeings way with the 787's, 777's and 748's..but I do see room for a few A380's down the road...

[Edited 2007-01-18 05:38:02]
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WhiteBirdFlyer
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:40 pm

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 3):
Welcome to negotiation.



Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 6):
It doesn't have to do with stupidity but negotiation tactics.

 checkmark 

Cordially,
WFB (who would love to secretly sit in on any negotiations between BA and Boeing...just for fun!)
WhiteBirdFlyer, currently near SFO
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:41 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 6):
kind of assumed it was a given that Boeing would continue to be the provider of BA's long-haulers.

They just make it competitive so that they get a better deal.

I mean, I didn't find it so significant that BA (or UA even, for that matter) bought the A320, at the time they bought it, Boeing's offering, 737 Classic, simply was way outclassed by A320. Had they both bought five years ago, maybe it would have been different, I don't know.

But I can't imagine BA would go with Airbus.

However, the GE engines only on 748 might bother BA.... though they did buy GE powered 777s, i guess we'll see.

BA is the airline the more recent collusion between Boeing and GE would alienate, so this should be the test of this recent GE exclusivity.

737 CFM (GE) exclusive
748 is GE exclusive
772LR/773ER are GE exclusive.... frankly given this trend, I'm pleasantly surprised RR is an option on 787.

With BA in this era, don't assume anything. IMO any historical ties or links BA may have such as:

Having been pro Boeing right back to the BEA/BOAC days to the point of agreeing to buy British aircraft, and then immediately lobbying the govenment for permission to buy Boeing instead.

Buying the Boeings, but re engined with RR

Recent shows of support for Airbus

WW's support of Airbus whilst at Aer Lingus

They all count for absoloutly nothing

The only thing fixed with BA is the publicized target to reach their goal of a 10% operating margin.

Nothing will be allowed to get in the way of this; so this is the true A vs B.

One thing is for sure though, BA will continue to operate both A & B for a good many years, as they will want their money's worth from both the relatively new A3X series, and the newer 747's & 777's for a while yet.
 
detroitflyer
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:56 pm

i have always wondered why BA has never had many more airbus' in its fleet.. After all parts of the Airbus is made in the UK.
Boiler Up!!!
 
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zeke
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:15 pm

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 2):

The 380... well... Airbus (or at least some of their supporters LOL) claim they don't compete with the 748, so I'm guessing you can't really call it a 747-4 replacement either.

What role to you see the 380 with the likes of AF, LH, CZ, KE, MH, QF, SQ, TG, VA ? 330/340 replacement ?

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 9):
(i.e.-such as CX, ...) do not mind having GE's underneath them if the ROI is worth it...

CX refused to pay for them, they are all power by the hour. No investment on the part of CX.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
osiris30
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:27 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 13):
What role to you see the 380 with the likes of AF, LH, CZ, KE, MH, QF, SQ, TG, VA ? 330/340 replacement ?

Hey Zeke, don't get mad at me for repeating the 'official party line'. Perhaps you should take that arguement up with the folks that spout the same thing in defense of the 380. I'm merely repeating what many Airbus fans (and I think some Airbus people, maybe) have said. And well what LH said themselves as well (again I think.. it's too hard to remember what was said, what was implied, and what was just a.net rumor these days).
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columba
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:35 pm

One thing we know for sure is that Airbus will fight very hard for this for various reasons.
They need a new customer for the A380 and for the A350. Winning BA as a customer for Airbus longhaul aircraft would be a huge sign of confidence to other airlines. Timing might be not that of a problem for BA. Airbus could offer them some interim A330 to replace the 767s if BA needs new aircraft soon.
Also we don´t know if BA already has delivery slots reserved for the 787 so if they would order now they still would not get new aircraft soon

I think this will be a hard order to predict.
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flydreamliner
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:52 pm

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 7):
Quoting Manni (Reply 4):
Do you really think the manufacturers are that stupid that they would fall for such a game.

Pretend you are Boeing or Airbus.. can you afford to take a chance and call their bluff?

Boeing has been dumb enough in the past and gotten pretty sorely burned. NW was set to buy 737-300 and -400s once upon a time before they flew A320. Boeing called their bluff on pricing, thinking NW wouldn't go for the new airbus, and was wrong. Hopefully they've since learned.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 9):
edit:

Also, BA has 777 slots reserved and would certainly lose those deposits if it went to "an all Airbus fleet"..

Touche' - there you go....

leave it to you to find out the critical information. as always, impressive. i'd add you to my RU list again if i could.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
osiris30
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:13 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16):
Boeing has been dumb enough in the past and gotten pretty sorely burned. NW was set to buy 737-300 and -400s once upon a time before they flew A320. Boeing called their bluff on pricing, thinking NW wouldn't go for the new airbus, and was wrong. Hopefully they've since learned.

Yes.. but I think that was Old Boeing(tm). They seem to have learned from a punch of their prior screwups.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
jacobin777
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:19 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 13):

CX refused to pay for them, they are all power by the hour. No investment on the part of CX.

Aye...true, but they could have had that with RR also..but my point still stands, it seems as if the type of engines being hung on the plane is becoming more secondary....

ROI, CASM, efficiency, revenue, etc. is becoming more and more important than ever before..

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16):

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 9):
edit:

Also, BA has 777 slots reserved and would certainly lose those deposits if it went to "an all Airbus fleet"..

Touche' - there you go....

leave it to you to find out the critical information. as always, impressive. i'd add you to my RU list again if i could.

Thanks FlyDreamliner... Smile
"Up the Irons!"
 
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zeke
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:19 pm

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 14):
Hey Zeke, don't get mad at me for repeating the 'official party line'.

I am not getting mad at all, just asked a simple question.

What DO YOU think the role of the aircraft is with the airlines I listed ?

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16):
Touche' - there you go....

Not too sure about that, I think the Oneworld Purchasing Executive Group joined forces with the T7 to get better volume discounts, those slots may already be spoken for.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
jacobin777
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:22 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 19):

Not too sure about that, I think the Oneworld Purchasing Executive Group joined forces with the T7 to get better volume discounts, those slots may already be spoken for.

Nopes..they are BA-specific from 1998, which would have been lost had BA not resecured them in 2006...

Cheers...
"Up the Irons!"
 
LGW
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:33 pm

A tactical leak to get Boeing to offer a better deal I would think (and hope)

WW got EI onto an all Airbus fleet but EI and BA are totally different animals and to say he did it in Ireland doesn't mean he will do it at BA, all depends on the specific individual needs of the airline.

I really hope we get a Boeing order at BA and not Airbus!
 
osiris30
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:56 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 19):
I am not getting mad at all, just asked a simple question.

What DO YOU think the role of the aircraft is with the airlines I listed ?

LOL.. First of all that was a very tongue in cheek remark. I was taking a lightheard poke at some folks who argued up and down the 380 doesn't compete with the 747, but they are infact different markets.

I don't honestly know what role the 380 plays for those airlines.. especially LH which now has both on order. They have enough 747s and options on order to completely replace their 747s with new 747s leaving the 380s ostensibly for expansion. Or perhaps they'll use their 747s for expansion and replace current 747s with 380s.

Or perhaps they are going to use 747s where 380s can't go due to facility issues. Or perhaps monkeys will fly out of my bottom. I really don't know.

For some of the airlines you mentioned, the 380 will provide capacity they need on extreme high-density routes. EK would be one such example.

Others that you listed I'm not even sure will take them (Virgin for example). Finally others like China wanted them for a specific purpose (the olympics) so I'm not sure what exactly they will do with them now.

I'm sure some will use them to replace 747s on some routes. But some of those same airlines will replace other 747s with 777s, 350s, or 787s. Should we consider the 777 as a competitor to the 747 now? I mean it all depends on what you want to call a competitor.

In short: Do they 747 and 380 compete with each other? Yes*

* - Depends on the situation for each airline. Each must be looked at individually. Contest void where prohibitted. Waranty for goods provided as is. Batteries not included. Shipping and handling extra.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
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LTU932
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:06 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 6):
I mean, I didn't find it so significant that BA (or UA even, for that matter) bought the A320, at the time they bought it, Boeing's offering, 737 Classic, simply was way outclassed by A320.

However, unlike UA, BA already had A320s at the time they made the A32x order because they inheritied quite a few of them from the merger with BCal. BA thus already had experience with the A320 and knew of its capabilities and that of the 737 Classics when they made the order for more A32xs. That being said...

Quoting Manni (Thread starter):
BA (unnamed) senior executives have told the English paper, The Times, that BA is considering an all Airbus fleet.

I can certainly see BA going all Airbus but only for their mainline narrowbody fleet (which includes fleet replacement for the 737s based in LGW and the eventual phaseout of the 757), but it ain't gonna happen for the widebody fleet. It would simply cost too much to re-train all the pilots flying longhaul to an all-Airbus widebody fleet, no matter how sweet of a deal Airbus is willing to give BA. Plus as mentioned, they have 777 delivery slots reserved, which could also be converted to the 787 or even the 747-8I if they choose to, so there might be too much at stake. If there will ever be Airbus widebodies in BA, they would be part of a mixed fleet, but that's it.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
zvezda
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:39 pm

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 2):
Airbus really doesn't have the product line to offer 1 for 1 replacements for BAs current fleet.

1-for-1 replacement is only important on A.net. Airlines are looking for whatever mix of aircraft will maximize profitability -- whether or not that is a 1-for-1 match to the existing fleet.
 
manni
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:07 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 5):
If you want a better offer and you know you are in a strong position, these type of business tactics might well be common practice. BA knows they are in a strong position for negotiations with both Boeing and Airbus as BA is one of the few major airlines left that has not selected any aircraft type yet for their fleet renewal for the coming years. Boeing and Airbus have their eyes on BA for a long time now I think and I wouldn't be surprised they will do everything to get the order, one way or the other. BA can play them against each other because of their strong negotiating position, in my opinion.

I'm not disagreeing there A388, and others who've replied to me with similar reasoning. I do however disagree that BA's sales negotations are nothing more than a cover up for...

 arrow 

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 2):
'Let's leak something to the press to get a better deal from Boeing, who we've already selected internally as the supplier, but don't let them know that'.



Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 6):
i kind of assumed it was a given that Boeing would continue to be the provider of BA's long-haulers.

They just make it competitive so that they get a better deal.

Never take anything as a given. British Airways isn't Continental. If it is Airbus aircraft that fit the mission and bill beter, Airbus aircraft it will be.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 7):
Pretend you are Boeing or Airbus.. can you afford to take a chance and call their bluff?

Under the circumstances you suggested, certainly. Airbus recently called RAM's RFP bluff, and showed them the door.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 9):
Also, BA has 777 slots reserved and would certainly lose those deposits if it went to "an all Airbus fleet"..

These are purchase rights IIRC. LY and SU even had commitments for an even more wanted aircraft, the 787, and let these go.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 23):
If there will ever be Airbus widebodies in BA, they would be part of a mixed fleet, but that's it.

FWIW, that would be my guess aswell. However, I was merely quoting the article I found without expressing my personal opinion. Which is, in contrary to the opinion of BA's senior executives, irrelevant for the outcome of the order.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 24):
Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 2):
Airbus really doesn't have the product line to offer 1 for 1 replacements for BAs current fleet.

1-for-1 replacement is only important on A.net. Airlines are looking for whatever mix of aircraft will maximize profitability -- whether or not that is a 1-for-1 match to the existing fleet.

That sums it all up. And if Airbus happens to have the best answer to that, it really doesn't matter what aircraft manufacturer has historically been the WB provider for BA.
 
baron95
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:09 pm

I look at BA's strategy and it seems that they want to offer one more step up in accomodations for F and C to compete with the likes of SG. So my thinking is that they'd be looking for airliners that are a bit bigger (say 10%) and longer ranged (say 15%) then what they current fly. In that regard, 787/748 represent a great replacement for their 767/744. In terms of availability, it they seem to fit well with BA's plans (except perhaps for the replacement for the oldest 767s that need to go soon).

The tricky part is the replacement for the 772/ERs. That would require, IMHO, a 787-10.5 (remember they need a 10% increase in flool area). I think this is vulnerable to the A350XWB-900.

In the end, it will, to some extent come down to price and Ts and Cs. I think when it comes to long-haul/WB fleet, Airbus is much hungrier than Boeing and much more ready to deal/discount. Is Airbus going to bite on price? I don't know.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
jacobin777
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:14 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 25):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 9):
Also, BA has 777 slots reserved and would certainly lose those deposits if it went to "an all Airbus fleet"..

These are purchase rights IIRC. LY and SU even had commitments for an even more wanted aircraft, the 787, and let these go

No..they aren't purchased rights..they are secured slots paid for with deposits.....but flexible for different planes if BA so chooses....
"Up the Irons!"
 
manni
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:20 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 27):
No..they aren't purchased rights..they are secured slots paid for with deposits.....but flexible for different planes if BA so chooses....

If you say so, nevertheless SU and LY were handed their deposits back aswell. I dont think these deposits guarantee a Boeing order.
 
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scbriml
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:22 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 6):
I mean, I didn't find it so significant that BA (or UA even, for that matter) bought the A320, at the time they bought it, Boeing's offering, 737 Classic, simply was way outclassed by A320.

 confused The NG was available as a choice when BA selected the A320 in the late 1990s!

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 23):
However, unlike UA, BA already had A320s at the time they made the A32x order because they inheritied quite a few of them from the merger with BCal.

They only inherited 10 early model A320s from BCal. Their 737 fleet was significantly bigger - for a long time at BA the small A320 fleet was a real issue and plenty inside BA wanted the airline to get rid of them.

At the time they placed their A320 order, BA's "defection" from Boeing was a bit of a shocker.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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CrazyHorse
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:55 pm

A very interesting news from the Times (Boersencenter) about BA and a larger order.
Only in German, sorry for that.


Donnerstag, 18. Januar 2007 08:59

Presse: British Airways will 135 Jets ordern; 1 Mrd Pfund Investition pro Jahr


Die Fluggesellschaft British Airways will laut einem Pressebericht kräftig in ihre Flotte investieren und in Kürze bis zu 135 Langstrecken-Jets bestellen. In den kommenden 15 Jahren wolle das Unternehmen jährlich eine Milliarde Pfund (1,52 Milliarden Euro) in die Erneuerung ihrer Flugzeuge stecken, berichtet die Tageszeitung "The Times" (Donnerstag) ohne Nennung von Quellen. Der Auftrag für die Langstreckenflieger solle in etwa drei Monaten erteilt werden.

Der Zeitung zufolge haben die Flugzeughersteller Boeing und Airbus im Ringen um diesen Auftrag versucht, sich preislich gegenseitig zu unterbieten. Die EADS-Tochter Airbus habe dabei beträchtliche Rabatte eingeräumt


http://www.boersencenter.at/index.as...d=2926263&profileExists=1&menuId=6

A short translation about this news.

BA will order 135 long haul aircrafts, the order should be placed within the next 3 months.
Both aircraft manufacturer combat hard for this order, Airbus with substantial rebates.
 
brightcedars
Posts: 762
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:18 pm

RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:06 pm

I can see it, why not:

- A330s à la SQ until the A350s gets delivered then...

- A350-800
- A350-900
- A350-1000
- A380-800

All powered by Rolls Royce!

However I do think that Boeing stand quite a chance with BA.
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:17 pm

Quoting LGW (Reply 21):
I really hope we get a Boeing order at BA and not Airbus!

Why ? Do you see any great technical or operational advantage in the planes from Boeing or is it just that you like them more ?

Please don't take this as my being biased towards A; I would have asked the same question of anyone who posted the opposite to you.
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:40 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 29):
Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 6):
I mean, I didn't find it so significant that BA (or UA even, for that matter) bought the A320, at the time they bought it, Boeing's offering, 737 Classic, simply was way outclassed by A320.

The NG was available as a choice when BA selected the A320 in the late 1990s!

I remember at the time inside BA that the B737NG was widely thought to have won that competition, until the sudden A319/320 order. It was a shock to us. Shows how it is the finances that decide which one wins, not the technical merits, which for the BA route network, were indistinguishable.
 
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keesje
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:15 pm

British Airways is probably working out different network scenarios with different fleet compositions/ developments. Things like transitions periods (pilots), cash flow & financing options and worst case scenarios all playing an important role.

All possible aircraft types are included with their different strenghts & weaknesses. Airbus & Boeing specialist will probably try to do the same thing to tune their offerings.

In determining the right mix there is no room for "all A" or "all B" considerations, it could only be an (unlikely) result.

IMO it will become most likely become an A/B mix like e.g. 25xA380's, 30x777-300ERs, 40xA350-900s and 40x787-8's.

[Edited 2007-01-18 11:34:23]
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
scouseflyer
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:59 pm

The Times reckon they'll order 65 copies of either the 748 or A388!

Overkill I think, I reckon something similar to Keesje's breakdown will be the end result.
 
manni
Topic Author
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:06 pm

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 35):
The Times reckon they'll order 65 copies of either the 748 or A388!

65! That's more then the number of 744 they operate. No wonder Mr. Leahy predicted a rather large amount of A380 will be sold to UK Airlines.

If they do order 65 VLA's a split between both manufacturers seems more likely. Then again, with limited slots available at the right times at the worlds major airports and taking annual passenger growth into acount, only the biggest aircraft might be the solution for their destinations currently served with the 744. Afterall the aircraft will have to last in BA's fleet for many many years.
 
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semobeila
Posts: 71
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:11 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 29):
Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 6):
I mean, I didn't find it so significant that BA (or UA even, for that matter) bought the A320, at the time they bought it, Boeing's offering, 737 Classic, simply was way outclassed by A320.

The NG was available as a choice when BA selected the A320 in the late 1990s!

Exactly, the 737NG was launched in 1993, the BA order was placed in 1998.
 
pilotaydin
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:12 pm

GREAT....a ton of British men and some women who are good at moving sticks around now.....
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
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autothrust
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:17 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 6):

They just make it competitive so that they get a better deal.

But I can't imagine BA would go with Airbus.

 checkmark 

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 23):
It would simply cost too much to re-train all the pilots flying longhaul to an all-Airbus widebody fleet,

Couldnt agree more, this is just a tactic to make more pressure to Boeing.
IMO they will go with the 787 and more 777.

However the A380 could have a chance because it offers RR unlike the 748.
And all main competitors will use the A380 too.

BA will not be a launch customer for the A350, but maybe in future they will buy some as replacement of older 777.

Just my guess.
Flown on: DC-9, MD-80, Fokker 100, Bae 146 Avro, Boeing 737-300, 737-400, 747-200, 747-300,747-400, 787-9, Airbus A310, A319, A320, A321, A330-200,A330-300, A340-313, A380, Bombardier CSeries 100/300, CRJ700ER/CRJ900, Embraer 190.
 
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keesje
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:24 pm

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 35):
The Times reckon they'll order 65 copies of either the 748 or A388!

Depends on BA's long term strategy. If they want to maintain their marketshare in Asia for the next 20 yrs from slot restricted LHR, bold moves could be neccesary.. Likely CX, JAL, AF/KLM wouldn't sit & wait..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
BA787
Posts: 2381
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:27 pm

Right as far as I see tis thread so far is just an argument between Airbus/Boeing buffs, this should not be an Avs B thread

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 2):

(checkmark)

Quoting Detroitflyer (Reply 12):
have always wondered why BA has never had many more airbus' in its fleet.. After all parts of the Airbus is made in the UK.

Nothing to do with it, whatsoever.


Firts of all, lets wait to hear from someone who has a bit more insider knoweldge, but hers my two cents

BA is being clever, as many people have suggested. They probably are considering Airbus as I percieve they will get a better deal outta them, but that is why they haver leaked this info. Boeing will now be shitting themselves and will come back with a blinding deal. This game will continue for many weeks until BA has the best deal possible.

As for the final decision, I think it will be a mixed buy. The success of the A32S series at BA will put Airbus in good stead, as well as the success of the 777/747 for Boeing. This means, IMHO, that they will have a mixed buy. Probably a chunk of 15-20 A380s coupled with maybe the same amount of 748I. As for the 787/777/A350/A330 ideas, I couldnt possibly say. It will probably sway to Boeing, but Airbus could offer a great deal which would leave BA swaying towards them.

Any way BA goes, it will be the right choice for them, and they will choose the best a/c for the job. You lot can all argue about Avs B and no doubt when the decision is made, most of you will whinge that BA has made the wrong choice. But at the end of the day, most of us on A.net are spectators, and dont really, despite what we say, have a clue about the inner workings of BA
 
UAL777UK
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:43 pm

Willie Walsh loves Airbus............just look what he did at EI. I for one think however that BA will stick with Boeing and order the 748-i and who knows maybe the 787!...Airbus, will get the short haul order.

Time will tell.
 
MarBergi
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:49 pm

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 42):
Willie Walsh loves Airbus............just look what he did at EI.

I think people make to much of WW supposed "love" for Airbus. Remember when he was at Aer Lingus they were close to going bankrupt, Airbus was what they had and as such he made use of it. At the end of the day BA will do what makes best financial sense for BA, irrspective of manufacturer.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:01 pm

In this day and age any airline that does not seriously consider both A & B is shooting themselves in the foot-unless they are guaranteed special consideration by one or the other, which I guess was the case with AA when they signed that deal w/B, even though it is now officially moot. At the end of the day, however, A must come up with a better deal to overcome the costs of switching, so the advantage remains with B.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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Revelation
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:09 pm

Quoting Manni (Thread starter):
BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet

Considering is the operative word. Lots of husbands are considering leaving their wives, and vice versa, but how many go through with it, versus how many who are just considering it?

Quoting Manni (Reply 4):
Do you really think the manufacturers are that stupid that they would fall for such a game.

Apparently BA is hoping this is so. Quoting yourself:

Quoting Manni (Thread starter):
"Analysts said yesterday that Boeing remained the likely winner, but a competitive bid from Airbus would force Boeing to offer a more attractive price."



Quoting Manni (Reply 4):
Did you read the article?

Priceless!

Quoting Manni (Reply 4):
"The airline rejected the A380 seven years ago when it was launched, saying that the aircraft did not fit with its plans. However, growth in the airline market could now make the A380 viable, BA executives said."

So, you are hanging your hat on the statement that growth could make the A380 viable? That's a pretty weak statement to do so. It's not like they are saying they are sure that growth will make the A380 very profitable. If this kind of weak statement excites you, I think you are easily excited.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
EI321
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:54 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 6):
I mean, I didn't find it so significant that BA (or UA even, for that matter) bought the A320, at the time they bought it, Boeing's offering, 737 Classic, simply was way outclassed by A320. Had they both bought five years ago, maybe it would have been different, I don't know.

BA placed the A32X order in 1998, wasnt the 737NG already in service?

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 39):
BA will not be a launch customer for the A350, but maybe in future they will buy some as replacement of older 777.

This would also suggest that they would not be a 'launch' customer for the 748i. Depends what we mean by launch customer. Both the A350, 748 and 787 already have their launch customers. I doubt BA will wait until the either enters service, an order will have to be placed irrespective.
 
mbj2000
Posts: 295
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:55 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 44):
In this day and age any airline that does not seriously consider both A & B is shooting themselves in the foot-unless they are guaranteed special consideration by one or the other, which I guess was the case with AA when they signed that deal w/B, even though it is now officially moot. At the end of the day, however, A must come up with a better deal to overcome the costs of switching, so the advantage remains with B.

 checkmark 
I think that sums it up pretty well! BA won't bluff for the sake of bluffing, Airbus know that, Boeing know that.
So let the deathmatch begin, wait, I'll get some potato crisps first...  Smile
Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending -- Bender Unit 22
 
manni
Topic Author
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:00 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 45):
Apparently BA is hoping this is so. Quoting yourself:

Quoting Manni (Thread starter):
"Analysts said yesterday that Boeing remained the likely winner, but a competitive bid from Airbus would force Boeing to offer a more attractive price."

Since when do these ANALYSTS speak on behalf of British Airways? I've also made my point, concerning the quote you took from my reply in post 4, clearer in post 25. Or didn't you bother reading before replying?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 45):
Considering is the operative word.

Didn't leave the word 'considering' out, did I? So what's the whining for?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 45):
So, you are hanging your hat on the statement that growth could make the A380 viable? That's a pretty weak statement to do so. It's not like they are saying they are sure that growth will make the A380 very profitable. If this kind of weak statement excites you,

What's your point revelation? Lot's of other topics are being discussed, far less exciting. Dont think it's worth a topic? Refrain from replying then and suggest the topic to be deleted. As far as using the words 'could' and 'viable', didn't BA wanted to give the manufacturers the impression that none of them should take the order for granted?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 45):
I think you are easily excited.

 faint 
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 2914
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RE: BA Is Considering An All Airbus Fleet.

Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:32 pm

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 42):
Willie Walsh loves Airbus............just look what he did at EI. I for one think however that BA will stick with Boeing and order the 748-i and who knows maybe the 787!...Airbus, will get the short haul order.

WW does not LOVE airbus as many have said. Those who use this statement are misinformed, Im afraid. At the time EI were doing their fleet renewal they already had 6 A321s and a few A320s(there may even have been an A319 or two as well) in the fleet. They also had BAe 146 but the backbone of the fleet was, without doubt, 737 classics.

The A330s and 321s had been in the fleet for quite a while, and EI had already made the decision to make a slow transition to Airbus. In fact ,in the aftermath of 9/11 a pair of A320s which airbus were building for EI were pulled from the production line.

Once EI were on stable ground again the whole fleet was up for grabs, however it was much more cost effective for EI to refurbish the A321 instead of aquiring the inferior 739 and replacing the 146s and 737 classics with A320s as opposed to 738s. I believe that AA would have been ken to off-load some of its orders to its then oneworld partner, however EIs selection of airbus was hardly a surprise.

On the subject of BA and airbus, I think that everyone agrees that the A380 is likely, and may be supplimented by the 748I in the next decade. Airbus have an adavantage in that the A330s they would offer are by no means an "outdated" aircraft in current terms. So that would offer BA the option of seeing how the A350XWB performs in service before it took delivery of its own models. With the 787 it would have to keep the 767s for much longer, but here also by the time BA could take delivery the 787 would be in service for quite a bit.

On the training issue, BA already has Airbus rated pilots and crews who would only need "differnences" days to transfer to the A330. Mind you most of those who would actually be able to hold an A330 seat/line would not be current on the Airbus, I suspect. Then again those transferring to any Boeings would need training as well. Its swings and reoundabouts I reckon. Too hard to call!

Brian.

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