Big Announcement At STL Tomorrow...

mrstl · Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:19 am

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 48):
If AirTran is serious about making a go of turning STL into a hub, then there are two questions to answer.

All really good points, I think STL will be seeing some modest expansion on WN's February 8th? schedule release.

STL might be a back up if the Midwest deal does not happen or a possible place to divert assets to should the merger go through-- or it might just be five flights nothing more. Strange timing on the announcement considering Midwest already has operations here and out of a different terminal.

[Edited 2007-01-22 22:23:18]

mrstl · Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:21 am

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 49):
STL-BOS is interesting. Fares usually around $400. AA has 4 dailys (3 rjs). FL has a fairly good presence in BOS.

Agreed, AA goes to 3x MD80 April 10th

bobnwa · Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:29 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 31):
It's not just MCI.. AirTran doesn't give much attention to a lot of their "older" stations.. RDU has service to ATL and that's it. Is there potential at RDU for FL? Yes.. have they taken it? No! I just don't get it.

You seen to be hinting that FL has an ulterior motive in not increasing service out of RDU. What would be holding them back, other than they don't agree with you that it is a good use of resources?

AASTEW · Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:34 am

Good Luck FL! Hope it works out better than the DFW buildup. FL doesn't have a good record when going against AA and WN.

AASTEW

ExpressJet_ERJ · Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:36 am

Any idea what time the press announcement is tomorrow? Im sure the media here in STL will have a hayday.

stl1326 · Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:40 am

Why can't they try the Southwest model? Have a good presence in many cities. I'm not saying they are going to make STL a hub by no means and I don't think that is their intention but a focus city is what I think they are wanting in STL. Why else would they set up show in the B concourse?

ERJ170 · Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:45 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 52):
You seen to be hinting that FL has an ulterior motive in not increasing service out of RDU. What would be holding them back, other than they don't agree with you that it is a good use of resources?

You seem to be putting words in my mouth. Not a good thing to do. As to what's holding them back? Who knows.. maybe you are right.. perhaps they could be thinking that it is a good use of resources. But I am also looking at other things.. There are several routes out of RDU that are unserved and FL could be the monopoly on. They currently have the gate space to add at least 3 more flights. AND history is on the side of RDU for additional service, albeit it was on ValuJet..

And there are other locations that have single destination service that I'm sure can handle another destination.. But I digress... I'm just wondering out loud why AirTran just seems stagnant at RDU..

flyibaby · Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:00 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 56):
You seem to be putting words in my mouth. Not a good thing to do. As to what's holding them back? Who knows.. maybe you are right.. perhaps they could be thinking that it is a good use of resources. But I am also looking at other things.. There are several routes out of RDU that are unserved and FL could be the monopoly on. They currently have the gate space to add at least 3 more flights. AND history is on the side of RDU for additional service, albeit it was on ValuJet..

And there are other locations that have single destination service that I'm sure can handle another destination.. But I digress... I'm just wondering out loud why AirTran just seems stagnant at RDU..

Okay, I'll bite. What routes could FL specifically have a monopoly on, that they would be big enough in on the downline station to run I suppose a 73G on? I suppose you are thinking SFO or something, but you have me curious.

LambertMan · Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:07 am

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 32):
Indeed, Air Tran will start service at STL in May out of B concourse with 5 flights a day intially. I don'y know what the expansion plans are afterwards, but I could see them seriously expanding out of B.

Five daily flights, not exactly what I was hoping for. Didn't they announce IND with only a few flights then added more before service even started on their initial round?

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 56):
And there are other locations that have single destination service that I'm sure can handle another destination.. But I digress... I'm just wondering out loud why AirTran just seems stagnant at RDU..

I know I brought up Kansas City, but you can make distinct comparisons between the two cities and air service levels. This thread isn't about RDU. If you're that curious, it may warrant its own thread.

IADLHR · Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:08 am

Quoting MrSTL (Reply 50):

All really good points, I think STL will be seeing some modest expansion on WN's February 8th? schedule release.

Thats what I was thinking when I saw first saw the topic. However, I ddint know when WN was going to do its next schedule release so I wasnt really sure what was going to be discussed.

I know some fairly senior WN people at ABQ. They feel sure that soon, very soon, STL will see an increase in flights at STL. It is believed there will be an increase in, among others, STL-ABQ as the current flights are notoriosuly overbooked.

J

luv2fly · Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:25 am

Quoting CentPIT (Reply 40):
However, as far as STL goes, I am not quite sure FL will be able to handle the heat that WN might throw at them, not to mention AA, that is if they really care.

Well since WN does not serve the STL to ATL route it is fair to say the heat will be minimal at best.

ExpressJet_ERJ · Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:26 am

DL and AA do STL-ATL atleast 6x daily each.

LoneStarMike · Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:44 am

A note about O&D statistics. The info on Faremeasure.com is from Q3 2004 and has never been updated beyond that time period.

The most current O&D statistics are for Q2 2006 and are available at DOT's Consumer Air Fare Report

Table 1 of this report covers the 1,000 largest city-pair markets in the 48 contiguous states and lists the number of one-way passenger trips per day, the nonstop distance, the average market fare, and identifies the airlines with the largest market share and the lowest average fare; market share and average fares are provided for both airlines.

Average fares are average prices paid by all fare paying passengers. They therefore cover first class fares paid to carriers offering such service but do not cover free tickets, such as those awarded by carriers offering frequent flyer programs

These were the top markets for STL as of Q2 2006:

City/# Daily Passengers flyng in either direction

Chicago, IL - 1,996
(includes both ORD and MDW)
Dallas/Ft. Worth, TX- 1626
(includes both DFW and DAL)
New York, NY - 1,343
(includes EWR, LGA and JFK)
Orlando, FL - 966
Los Angeles, CA - 941
Las Vegas, NV - 843
Detroit, MI - 831
Houston, TX - 816
(includes both IAH and HOU)
Phoenix, AZ - 796
Washington, DC - 690
(includes both DCA and IAD)
Baltimore, MD - 687
Tampa, FL - 639
Minneapolis/St. Paul, MN - 597
Philadelphia, PA - 561
Atlanta, GA - 554
Denver, CO - 553
Kansas City, MO - 547
Seattle, WA - 532
Cleveland, OH - 479
Ft. Meyers, FL - 455
Boston, MA - 447
San Francisco, CA - 408
Ft. Lauderdale, FL - 400
Omaha, NE - 391
Miami, FL - 385
San Diego, CA - 371
San Antonio, TX - 331
Columbus, OH - 303
Slt Lake City, UT 281
Raleigh/Durham, NC - 275
Oklahoma City, OK - 227 (tie)
Santa Ana, CA - 227 (tie)

For O&D statistics for other markets from STL not shown in Table 1, use Table 6.

Table 6 is the expanded version of Table 1 that lists all city-pair markets that average at least 10 passengers each day

LoneStarMike

DTWAGENT · Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:49 am

Maybe WN will be doing a major expantion at STL and using all of concourse B. Just a thought

Chuck

ERJ170 · Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:57 am

Quoting LambertMan (Reply 58):
This thread isn't about RDU.

True. Back to STL. Congratulations on the service. Best of luck to whatever they get. I too perhaps see ATL, with MCO and probably BWI additions. I don't think I could see MDW since that would be a hub-to-hub flight and between AA and UA AND WN, it's probably VERY well covered..

Should they decide to make STL a focus city, what routes does AA have a high-fare monopoly on that would allow FL to undercut and pull significant traffic?

adizzy · Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:18 am

I'll just take a guess and say that B6 is going to add another destination to is map....soon!

mrstl · Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:23 am

STL/DFW-DAL Q3/04 813 daily passengers Q2/06 1626 daily passengers
Looks like the Southwest effect is alive and well -- traffic doubled!

CentPIT · Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:57 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 60):
Well since WN does not serve the STL to ATL route it is fair to say the heat will be minimal at best.

Yeah I knew that, but if FL serves other markets from STL, then it might be hot.

777STL · Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:40 am

Quoting DTWAGENT (Reply 63):
Maybe WN will be doing a major expantion at STL and using all of concourse B. Just a thought

Considering WN owns Terminal E and Terminal E is quite a bit aways geographically from B, I think the odds of that are happening are slim to none and slim just left the building.

CIDFlyer · Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:53 am

Quoting 777STL (Reply 38):
Bout time though, how long has little Bloomington, Illinois had FL service? Three years? Four years?

Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 41):
I think it's 7. I don't remember exactly when they started there, but I wanna say sometime in and around 2000

funny you should ask, I just checked the Central Illinois Regional Airport website yesterday, and AirTran just celebrated 10 years of service at BMI in December. Service started there in Dec 1996.

Airtran at STL will be instersting. Just think, about 7 years ago I think FL had thought about merging with TWA before backing out. I am curious to see if AA will be upgrade ATL with mainline, I have heard before that it has always been a possibility as it is a supposedly a good perfromer.

[Edited 2007-01-23 02:02:41]

bobnwa · Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:20 am

Quoting 777STL (Reply 68):
Considering WN owns Terminal E and Terminal E is quite a bit aways geographically from B, I think the odds of that are happening are slim to none and slim just left the building.

Are you sure that WN OWNS Terminal E, or do they have a lease on it?

HPAEAA · Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:04 am

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 62):
Cleveland, OH - 479

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 62):
Columbus, OH - 303

I often wondered why AA dropped the CLE routes completely, IIRC they had 5x MD80's to STL prior to the downsizing and then dropped them all, I always thought a couple of RJ's would have made sense on the route...

mrstl · Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:37 am

This is STL related, however not related to the announcement.

Effective 04/10 American Eagle will reinstate nonstop service to SGF- Springfield/Branson MO-

This is listed under new routes on the website.

Looks like a 1x daily

[Edited 2007-01-23 03:41:13]

stlgph · Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:10 pm

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 42):
But still, I think that AirTran is in for a big fight at STL, especially with all the loyal AA flyers in the area, plus a big WN presence. I have a friend in the area, and you couldn't get her to stop racking up those AAdvantage miles (she's Executive Platinum, BTW), even if FL offered a much lower fare.

Ding ding ding.

St. Louis is very traditionalist.

The people are not going to just flock to this airline because it is there unless they are selling seats for $5. American has a deep fan base since all of the Aviators members came into the Advantage system. Southwest's Rapid Rewards has grown tremendously. Northwest, United, and Delta frequent flyers are all loyal customers.

And they're not replacing anybody, either. The offerings of American, Southwest, and USA 3000 have proven to be more than adequate service offerings to Florida since 2003.

I'm almost willing to put money on the table that AirTran is gonna lose this one. They're almost "stupid" to pay to put gates back in B and should just experiment sharing gates with Frontier to see how well the two companies get along.

Quoting ExpressJet_ERJ (Reply 54):
Im sure the media here in STL will have a hayday.

Unless they're coming in with 100's of flights and hundreds of jobs, doubtful.
The Post Dispatch has a transportation reporter ... it might be a blurb in section "B", if that.

Otherwise, they'll care less.

Shawn Hornbeck is still too good of news and I-40 construction plans were just announced today.

Plus ... all that they have to do is mention that AirTran is the former Valujet and you'll have some people droppin' it like it's hot.

mrstl · Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:31 pm

Quoting STLGph (Reply 73):
Ding ding ding.

St. Louis is very traditionalist.

Frontier seems to be doing well here as does USA3000. Sorry a 717 beats a 50 seat RJ anyday. This coming from an AA Gold who is now spreading his business out to people who fly mainline on routes as I am sick of RJ's. I was PLAT last year but got tired of flying trans states RJ's and an now flying WN more as well as other carriers who offer mainline out of STL. Hmnm a UA 757/737, F9 A319 or a AX RJ-- to Denver on my trip next week-- not a hard decision for me-- the mainline won out.

stlgph · Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:38 pm

Quoting MrSTL (Reply 74):
Frontier seems to be doing well here as does USA3000. Sorry a 717 beats a 50 seat RJ anyday. This coming from an AA Gold who is now spreading his business out to people who fly mainline on routes as I am sick of RJ's. I was PLAT last year but got tired of flying trans states RJ's and an now flying WN more as well as other carriers who offer mainline out of STL. Hmnm a UA 757/737, F9 A319 or a AX RJ-- to Denver on my trip next week-- not a hard decision for me-- the mainline won out.

Frontier found business because they found a void in service to western markets that were cut off by TWA/AA pull out...such as places like San Jose, Portland, Sacramento, Tucson, Albuquerque, Reno, etc.

AirTran is not filling a void.

I'd rather take an ERJ than 717. Not only do I like the ERJ but if I've got over 200,000 plus miles on AA and I've been flying the ERJ for a while and have gotten used to it ... then what's it matter. Plus if you're a smart traveler you are aware that you are just dependant on a small focus to spoke operation rather than your flight being screwed up because of storms in the northeast.

If you want to miss out on the chance to accrue more miles, then so be it, but when you're a business traveler being paid to go somewhere ... those miles are a great reward (and free) to the wife for being gone all the time.

penguinflies · Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:43 pm

While it will be great to see B used like that again, I wonder who is going to pay to demolish the RJ doors chautauqua built for the saabs and rjs plus reinstall jetways on a few gates and have it up and running in less than two months. I think there can only be 6 jetways installed as the FAA control tower blocks B3, leaving only B7, B2, B4, B6 to have jetways. B4/6 are spaced so that TWA could park a MD-80 at B2, and two 145's at 4/6. Right now AA does 45 degree park two MD-80 size aircraft at B4 and B6 with a 3 foot wingtip clearance between the two acft for overnight maintenance. The End of B also is farther out than A or C, so a 717 at B14 may block the Charlie Taxiway (or may not, depending on the parking position).

Further Delta overnights will no longer be able to use B7 for storage, forcing them to use the Echo pad since NW parks 3 DC-9s on the Charlie pad, along with one Expressjet and a few United's Ex 145s, seems parking will be at a premium.

Someone mentioned E-gates, there are some high numbered E-gates that WN does not use (lease?). They were at one time the charter airline gates. The charters moved to "C". Chautauqua and Trans States store their aircraft overnight between D6-D30, in addition to their aircraft on the C-gates.

MrSTL- "This is STL related, however not related to the announcement.

Effective 04/10 American Eagle will reinstate nonstop service to SGF- Springfield/Branson MO-

This is listed under new routes on the website.

Looks like a 1x daily
"
--That Eagle flight I believe is to repo for maintenance as Eagle is no longer overnighting aircraft in STL for maintenance as of April.

ExpressJet_ERJ · Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:50 pm

Nice to see SGF come back, would be nice to see MCI and CLE come back. Hey I know I'm dreaming but it COULD happen.

WesternA318 · Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:57 pm

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 39):
STL can get back some of those TWA 717s...

Amen to that... pray

stlgph · Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:22 pm

Quoting Penguinflies (Reply 76):

It's 5 maybe 6 flights.

You're speaking as if they're becoming the new Baltimore.

stl1326 · Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:31 pm

Anybody know what routes they will be flying to?

clipper707 · Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:54 pm

I have been told that NK will be in STL for svc to Florida and the islands.
Catch The Spirit to the Caymans!!!

Clipper707

stl1326 · Tue Jan 23, 2007 2:02 pm

Quoting Clipper707 (Reply 81):
I have been told that NK will be in STL for svc to Florida and the islands.
Catch The Spirit to the Caymans!!!

When will they annouce new service to STL, that would be great news if that was true??? Two new airlines.....

AA787823 · Tue Jan 23, 2007 2:55 pm

Big announcement will be that Anheiser Bush will start making a cola along with beer. of which i am on my 8th

flyibaby · Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:08 pm

Quoting AA787823 (Reply 83):
Big announcement will be that Anheiser Bush will start making a cola along with beer. of which i am on my 8th

Airtran has been in talks with Anheiser Busch for a while now anyway. My money would be that they scored some guaranteed flying to select markets that the Anheiser execs need better service to. I could be wrong, but I have a feeling I'm not.....

MAH4546 · Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:17 pm

Quoting Clipper707 (Reply 81):
I have been told that NK will be in STL for svc to Florida and the islands.
Catch The Spirit to the Caymans!!!

If Spirit goes to STL, it will be a flight to FLL, maybe RSW. No Island service.

mrstl · Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:19 pm

AirTran will begin service in May with 4X ATL and in June with 1XMCO

Welcome to STL AirTran!

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/new...B8CFF8625726C00155646?OpenDocument

[Edited 2007-01-23 08:26:35]

stlgph · Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:02 pm

Post Dispatch has the article.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/new...B8CFF8625726C00155646?OpenDocument

BHMNONREV · Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:49 pm

Guess it's time to pull out the old Google Earth image again and start to speculate..

Although the Post article states that no gate/concourse has been assigned, if Boeing Nut says "B", I will take his word for it. If they are going to do any adding of jetways would it not make sense for F9 to move that way also??

Question is, where do they (FL) go, and how many gates will they take? As someone earlier stated, any gates at the base of the inverted "Y" could interfere with taxiway ops, although the 717 should be OK. Anything longer could present a problem..

deltadawg · Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:41 pm

Quoting ExpressJet_ERJ (Reply 61):
DL and AA do STL-ATL atleast 6x daily each.

Yes, and the two of them have been squeezing every dime out of passengers on this route for years.

FL is a welcome site to this route and I do not know why they didn't start it earlier? Non-sale fares have hovered anywhere from $500-900 in the past several years on either DL or AA.

WA707atMSP · Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:58 pm

Quoting ExpressJet_ERJ (Reply 77):
Nice to see SGF come back, would be nice to see MCI and CLE come back. Hey I know I'm dreaming but it COULD happen.

It would also be nice to see DTW come back, even if it's just a couple of "Jungle Jets" a day. DTW has 200 more passengers / day than MSP, where AA has been able to hold their own against NW.

20 years ago, TWA flew L-1011s and 767s DTW-STL.

quickmover · Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:09 am

I remember at TWA's peak STL years, SGF saw a mix of 5 daily dc9/md80s plus 5 daily ATR 72/42s.

HPAEAA · Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:24 am

It's Official, STL and SAN are the new destinations! here's the press releases
Stl: 4x to ATL 1x to MCO
http://pressroom.airtran.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=201565&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=952987&highlight=
San: 2x to ATL
http://pressroom.airtran.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=201565&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=952991&highlight=
WOO HOOO lol now I can get to SAN

[Edited 2007-01-23 16:28:07]

[Edited 2007-01-23 16:39:43]

falstaff · Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:39 am

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 90):
It would also be nice to see DTW come back, even if it's just a couple of "Jungle Jets" a day. DTW has 200 more passengers / day than MSP, where AA has been able to hold their own against NW.

After I moved to Detroit in 2000 I would fly to STL on TWA, then I tried WN and I didn't like it. I then moved to NW. NW and WN are the only two with non-stop to STL from DTW. I think there should be three choices again. I would give FL a try to STL.

jmy007 · Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:51 am

There interactive route map now has St Louis. It's funny, as they show connecting service in Atlanta to Witchta, Memphis, and Houston.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 73):
I'm almost willing to put money on the table that AirTran is gonna lose this one. They're almost "stupid" to pay to put gates back in B and should just experiment sharing gates with Frontier to see how well the two companies get along

I agree with this. The Frontier gate area with 2 gates, seems under used, with the handful of spaced out flights.

stl1326 · Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:33 am

Boeing nut, anyword on what they will be doing with the B concourse like adding a jet bridge, ect.?

HeavyMX1 · Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:40 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 73):
They're almost "stupid" to pay to put gates back in B and should just experiment sharing gates with Frontier to see how well the two companies get along

Maybe they are not paying for the gates to be reinstated. They may have negotiated to have STL pay for them, you never know.

stlgph · Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:05 am

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 88):
Question is, where do they (FL) go, and how many gates will they take? As someone earlier stated, any gates at the base of the inverted "Y" could interfere with taxiway ops, although the 717 should be OK. Anything longer could present a problem..

"although the 717 should be OK ... anything longer could present a problem..."
gosh that rings bells a few months ago when I mentioned something along these lines and got flamed big time for it.

i'm gonna just sit here, chuckle to myself, and enjoy my afternoon coffee.

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 88):
start to speculate..

and be real here ... how many gates can you *really* fit in that block of building. and you can't just go by looking at it from the picture on the outside ... you really have to be able to walk through the concourse itself to get a feel for the space. on the west side ... there might be space for one gate (with a seating area less than that of a Waffle House) given the structure of the inside *AND* outside of the building ... don't forget there are restrooms that are there along that wall and those are the only ones for the concourse.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 90):

It would also be nice to see DTW come back, even if it's just a couple of "Jungle Jets" a day.

with the Hazelwood Ford plant going bye bye is there that much demand still between St. Louis and Detroit?

Quoting HeavyMx1 (Reply 96):
Maybe they are not paying for the gates to be reinstated. They may have negotiated to have STL pay for them, you never know.

could be ... but ... well ... i won't say anything...

jmy007 · Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:32 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 97):
with the Hazelwood Ford plant going bye bye is there that much demand still between St. Louis and Detroit?

Daimler Chrysler and GM still have plants in metro St Louis.

moman · Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:48 am

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 42):
But still, I think that AirTran is in for a big fight at STL, especially with all the loyal AA flyers in the area, plus a big WN presence. I have a friend in the area, and you couldn't get her to stop racking up those AAdvantage miles (she's Executive Platinum, BTW), even if FL offered a much lower fare.

AA has a huge lock on the STL market, underestimated by MANY on here. I suspect that if there is a 'media hayday', it's more along the lines of thanks for addtional service than anyone wanting AA to leave or lose this fight. STL citizens have already seen one great carrier leave because they welcomed WN and I doubt that mistake will be made again. Wouldn't surprise me at all if the only people who fly AirTran are new or marginal customers who wouldn't have traveled otherwise. Plus with AA's track record with any serious challenge, half of the STL passengers will be given Gold status to build their loyalty, just like they did before the October 2003 cutbacks.

Quoting ExpressJet_ERJ (Reply 45):
Come on STL-TPA with AA cutting it to 1 daily, I need that one!

They do this every year - and since 2005, they have kept 2x per day frequency, adding it back to the schedule at the last minute. I don't see any reason they won't do the same this year (and I hope they do, of course).

Quoting Penguinflies (Reply 76):
B4/6 are spaced so that TWA could park a MD-80 at B2

I flew a TWA MD-80 with about 20 people on it from STL-SGF in 1/2000. Talk about a wonderful flight.

Quoting ExpressJet_ERJ (Reply 77):
would be nice to see MCI

AA does need to add STL-MCI and I cannot imagine why they have not yet. I'm still rooting for a STL-PDX flight.

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