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PHLBOS
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WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:38 am

Article from The Philadelphia Inquirer:
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/business/16484654.htm

But Southwest service here also will shrink a bit after March 10, when it stops flying between Philadelphia and Hartford, Conn., according to information on the airline's Web site.
...
Southwest has three round-trip flights a day on the Philadelphia-Hartford route, using 130-seat Boeing 737 jets. US Airways Express, the only other carrier with nonstop flights, has eight daily round-trips, most of them using 50-seat regional jets.


This is probably the first route that WN is altogether dropping since it set up shop at PHL nearly 3 years ago. The timing of this could NOT be any worse for the company I work for. We just landed a sizable airport job over at BDL and have started flying the PHL-BDL route in recent weeks.

However, I did a before/after PHL-BDL r/t same day (morning/evening) return fare comparision (using US' website) and was pleasantly surprised when I came up w/the following:
March 5 best fare: $118.80 (competition w/WN)
March 12 best fare: $138.80 (after WN drops the market)

Either Parker has indeed changed US' past philosophy of gouging on monopolized routes (old-US would have charged $300+ for March 12) or US isn't aware of WN dropping the route as of yet. I did a similar fare check for March 19 and came up w/the same fare as March 12. I will check their fares (particularly the March 12 fare) a week from now to see whether US will increase its fare. Personally, I hope that it's the former and not the latter.

My only gripe w/WN regarding this route was that their last flight had a 4 to 4:30 PM departure time... way too early; especially when one factors travel (BDL is actually in Windsor Locks and NOT Hartford) and security times.
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S5FA170
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:41 am

Interesting. Is their anything new popping up for these planes to do in PHL or BDL?
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Boeing757/767
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:42 am

This move was expected, according to banter on this site. Not surprising, considering US throws a mix of planes on the route. Given the relatively short flight, the competition from US and the availability of lots more connections through BWI, no surprise here.
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ScottB
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:41 am

Quoting Boeing757/767 (Reply 2):
This move was expected, according to banter on this site.

I believe it's been (unannounced) public knowledge since the March schedule was released back in November. It's certainly not unexpected given that loads on the route have been in the range of 25-35%.

Since the drive is relatively short (< 4 hours without traffic), they had a tough time making it work, especially given that they rely far less on connections at PHL than US. WN actually had 43% of the O&D BDL-PHL market in the second quarter; the problem was, 43% of 382 daily passengers (both ways) isn't anywhere near enough to fill three round-trips on 737's.
 
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SANFan
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:04 am

Quoting S5FA170 (Reply 1):
Interesting. Is their anything new popping up for these planes to do in PHL or BDL?

Oh yes (but not necessarily in PHL or BDL.) From the Press Release last year...
DALLAS, Nov. 16 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Southwest Airlines (NYSE: LUV) announced today the addition of 33 new nonstop flights in 26 city-pairs across the nation.
This is typical of WN with a major schedule re-work: delete under-performing flights and redirect a/c (plus new deliveries) to new markets. Seems to be a winning formula.

bb
 
PHLBOS
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:17 am

Quoting S5FA170 (Reply 1):
Interesting. Is their anything new popping up for these planes to do in PHL or BDL?

Article exerpt:
Southwest will use jets that had been on the Hartford route to add flights between Philadelphia and other existing routes, to Manchester, N.H.; Raleigh-Durham, N.C.; and Tampa and West Palm Beach, Fla., spokeswoman Linda Rutherford said.


Quoting ScottB (Reply 3):
Since the drive is relatively short (< 4 hours without traffic), they had a tough time making it work, especially given that they rely far less on connections at PHL than US. WN actually had 43% of the O&D BDL-PHL market in the second quarter; the problem was, 43% of 382 daily passengers (both ways) isn't anywhere near enough to fill three round-trips on 737's.

On one hand, I see what you're saying. On the otherhand, with the departure time of the last flight being at 4 PM (plus the fact that BDL can be a bit of a drive from downtown Hartford (I-91 can get jammed at times; though not as bad as I-84) during rush hour) it's no wonder that WN had some difficulty getting more passengers... at least for round-trip bookings.

True story: last August, when I made a Saturday day-trip to visit my older brother's house in Sturbridge, MA (the same day I met up w/Cadet57 & Texan). I wound up flying WN to BDL and USExpress back to PHL because WN's last BDL-PHL flight was at 4 PM vs. USx's 6:30 PM flight. Had WN had a later flight; I would have booked a r/t ticket w/them.

Oh well, should US eventually revert back to the bad ol' days farewise; I can always use PVD for day-trip visits w/my brother. Any visit longer than a day-and-a-half to two days; I would normally drive.

And as far as driving to/through the Hartford area from Philly is concerned (which I have done numerous times over the last 16 1/2 years); it's all in the timing. If one hits I-84 (west of Hartford) at the wrong time; that less than 4-hour one-way travel time estimate can be easily blown.

Another exerpt from the article bold emphasis added:
Southwest has not decided yet what additional cities it will fly to from Philadelphia. Among the candidates are Washington (Dulles Airport); Cleveland; Denver; Kansas City, Mo.; St. Louis; Louisville, Ky.; Birmingham, Ala.; Albany, N.Y.; Buffalo; and Norfolk, Va.

I find it very interesting that WN would even consider PHL-IAD as a possible route. That route (should it become reality) could be very useful for some of my co-workers for meetings & site visits for any IAD projects we're working on.
 scratchchin 
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flyboy7974
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:26 am

And then.........................

Remember everybody, that's a newpaper clip you are reading and who writes those, our one and only media who dig and dig for anything.

SWA is not looking at PHL-IAD. You'd spend more time on the taxiway/runway then in the air or even driving for that matter. With O&D figures at 54 pax, and that's the whole D.C area which is considered a coterminal also serving BWI and DCA, don't really think that there are enough pax for this to even be considered
 
stlgph
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:55 am

Quoting Flyboy7974 (Reply 6):
And then.........................

Remember everybody, that's a newpaper clip you are reading and who writes those, our one and only media who dig and dig for anything.

funny. Linda Rutherford told me the same thing the article states.

ho hum.
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ScottB
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:05 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 5):
I find it very interesting that WN would even consider PHL-IAD as a possible route.

I don't think they honestly would; I suspect that list of cities was little more than speculation on the part of the reporter.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 5):
On one hand, I see what you're saying. On the otherhand, with the departure time of the last flight being at 4 PM (plus the fact that BDL can be a bit of a drive from downtown Hartford (I-91 can get jammed at times; though not as bad as I-84) during rush hour) it's no wonder that WN had some difficulty getting more passengers... at least for round-trip bookings.

True story: last August, when I made a Saturday day-trip to visit my older brother's house in Sturbridge, MA (the same day I met up w/Cadet57 & Texan). I wound up flying WN to BDL and USExpress back to PHL because WN's last BDL-PHL flight was at 4 PM vs. USx's 6:30 PM flight. Had WN had a later flight; I would have booked a r/t ticket w/them.

I see what you're saying as well, but I think it's telling that US only had about 10 points more market share (though their fares were nearly double WN's) in what turned out to be a pretty small market, even with a significantly more convenient schedule. And both the MHT-PHL and PVD-PHL markets grew far more dramatically than BDL-PHL in response to WN's entry.

And as you've said...if you have to get to Windsor Locks in traffic from Hartford (or points south and west), getting to BDL can be a pain. At that point, it might just make more sense to drive and do your best to skirt NYC.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 5):
And as far as driving to/through the Hartford area from Philly is concerned (which I have done numerous times over the last 16 1/2 years); it's all in the timing. If one hits I-84 (west of Hartford) at the wrong time; that less than 4-hour one-way travel time estimate can be easily blown.

Absolutely agreed...when the heck are they going to finish that stretch east of Waterbury?! There are plenty of other places where you can end up in a jam while driving, but, then again, you can also end up with a multiple-hour delay due to congestion at PHL...

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 5):
Oh well, should US eventually revert back to the bad ol' days farewise; I can always use PVD for day-trip visits w/my brother.

True. With the improvements on Rte. 146 being mostly done, PVD is maybe 20 minutes farther from Sturbridge.
 
flyboy7974
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:53 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 7):

and which part are you speaking of regarding you heard the same thing the article states?

In addition, reading the article again, notice that through most parts of it, the clip does reference by name when items were spedifically mentioned by the SWA representative, but the paragraph again that states what cities are candidates, well, I think listed are almost any and all destinations that SWA serves east of the Great Plains not currently served by SWA via nonstop/connecting service.

Also wonder what will happen regarding the other topic on here today about SWA and more problems at ISP. Tearing up an apron and construction such as that will put a damper on ops there for a bit
 
Boston92
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:23 am

I still think WN should hop on a LAX-BDL route, but DL might get most of those travelers?
 
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:32 am

Quoting Flyboy7974 (Reply 9):
...what cities are candidates, well, I think listed are almost any and all destinations that SWA serves east of the Great Plains not currently served by SWA via nonstop/connecting service.



Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 5):
Another exerpt from the article bold emphasis added:
Southwest has not decided yet what additional cities it will fly to from Philadelphia. Among the candidates are Washington (Dulles Airport); Cleveland; Denver; Kansas City, Mo.; St. Louis; Louisville, Ky.; Birmingham, Ala.; Albany, N.Y.; Buffalo; and Norfolk, Va.

I note that SAN is not mentioned in the list. There is already n/s service to LAX and OAK, and SAN is the third Left Coast city (and in the WN Top Ten Cities list) that would be expected to be on the service list; SAN has had Saturday Only flights to PHL on-and-off now for a while.  Sad (And has an O&D daily pax count of 754 with only US currently flying the route!)

I'm sorry to see SAN-PHL is not currently being mentioned.

bb
 
HPAEAA
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:34 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Thread starter):
However, I did a before/after PHL-BDL r/t same day (morning/evening) return fare comparision (using US' website) and was pleasantly surprised when I came up w/the following:
March 5 best fare: $118.80 (competition w/WN)
March 12 best fare: $138.80 (after WN drops the market)

Either Parker has indeed changed US' past philosophy of gouging on monopolized routes (old-US would have charged $300+ for March 12) or US isn't aware of WN dropping the route as of yet.

I dunno, Parker's all about adjusting the revenue Mix... they've been doing it quite a bit on other US destinations... I would say it's plausable that they might keep the current fare levels short of some dramatic shift in demand...
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stlgph
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:49 am

Quoting Flyboy7974 (Reply 9):
In addition, reading the article again, notice that through most parts of it, the clip does reference by name when items were spedifically mentioned by the SWA representative, but the paragraph again that states what cities are candidates, well, I think listed are almost any and all destinations that SWA serves east of the Great Plains not currently served by SWA via nonstop/connecting service.

Quick Journalism lesson --

Kelly, speaking to analysts and reporters in a conference call, said Southwest's growth at Philadelphia International "has been throttled to a degree" because it has not been able to lease more than eight gates, four in Terminal D and four in Terminal E. Despite the constraints, Southwest has grown since it started service here in May 2004 to be the No. 2 airline at the airport, with almost 10 percent of the passengers.

source -- would be Southwest Airlines

Southwest has not decided yet what additional cities it will fly to from Philadelphia. Among the candidates are Washington (Dulles Airport); Cleveland; Denver; Kansas City, Mo.; St. Louis; Louisville, Ky.; Birmingham, Ala.; Albany, N.Y.; Buffalo; and Norfolk, Va

source -- would be Southwest Airlines

"We have so many opportunities," Kelly said. "We need to be sure we can execute on a specific date. But assuming we have gates and are ready to go in the fall, you could see an announcement... perhaps this spring."

source -- direct quote from Kelly chosen so he says it ... not the reporter.
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Cadet57
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:21 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 8):
And as you've said...if you have to get to Windsor Locks in traffic from Hartford (or points south and west)

Its not THAT bad.. I was going to stamford and was driving thru Windsor Locks bout 5:30 and hit hartford at about 6:10... so not good but not terrible either.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 8):
At that point, it might just make more sense to drive and do your best to skirt NYC.

Not really. 95 is a mess and is worse traffic wise the closer you get to the city.
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CentPIT
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:39 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 3):
WN actually had 43% of the O&D BDL-PHL market in the second quarter; the problem was

This was mentioned earlier on another thread. PHL-BDL was the worst performing route for WN in PHL, but something that makes me laugh is that PHL-PIT is the second worst. PHL-PIT is currently at 7 daily Southwest flights, with US running 11 daily flights, so it would be hard to have great loads on all 7 daily flights. I have flown PIT-PHL with no empty seats, so I am sure it depends on the days, but WN won't be cutting PHL-PIT.
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AlexPorter
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:44 pm

I can understand their reasons for dropping it - if it's unprofitable, then there is no sense in keeping it. It is a shame though - Southwest is the best non-stop carrier on that route in terms of customer service (in economy class), much better than US economy.
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Cadet57
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:26 pm

Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 16):
uch better than US economy.

Its a 20-30 minute flight. What is so special about WN over US?
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flyboy7974
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:06 pm

And again, another "quick" journalism lesson as this is exactly what I am referring to, and thank you again, in your response to my post, review all three paragraphs. Now, in one paragraph, there is something distinctively missing then from the other two? hhhhmmmmmmm, well, in paragraph 1, it starts with a quote, Kelly, "blah blah blah," and then again in the third paragraph, it states, Kelly said, "blah blah blah". But now, looking at the second paragraph, there are no quotes, there is no reference to statements directly made by Kelly, it's a general statement in reference to cities Southwest serves and not directly from PHL. You don't see anywhere in that paragraph, Kelly is quoted as mentioning Southwest is looking or you don't see as mentioned by Kelly, or I don't see Kelly has confirmed. All you see is a general statement with no reference to direct statements made by Kelly, Southwest Airlines officials, or airport officials.

If Kelly or SWA reps had made the comment to the media, route projections or foresight are usually followed with some sort of factual information regarding pax counts, yield, revenue/cost per mile and they compare that to a SWA effect chart to show past examples of SWA entering a new market and how they may effect the route to come.

Aviation journalism was a class taken, a class passed, and commercial aviation with an emphasis on airline management and route/yield analysis is my stronghold, so, this is the backing to what I saw in between the lines in this newspaper clipping.
 
AlexPorter
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:43 pm

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 17):
What is so special about WN over US?

Keep in mind that there is more to the customer service experience with an airline than just in-flight aspects, including

- Check-in
- Security
- Gate areas
- Baggage handling
- Friendliness of flight attendants, gate agents, and ticket agents
- For the economy passenger, airfares.
- Website

I'd say in this case, the baggage handling is a well-known issue for US in PHL as is the difficulty of making certain connections depending on the gate assignments, for example. Overall on domestic flights in the U.S., Southwest has higher customer satisfaction than US Airways, and this includes all aspects of customer service from the time you book the ticket until you get your bag off the carousel.
Last Flight: SCX701 MSP-PHX B738 8Jan2008
 
HPRamper
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:24 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Thread starter):
Either Parker has indeed changed US' past philosophy of gouging on monopolized routes (old-US would have charged $300+ for March 12) or US isn't aware of WN dropping the route as of yet.

US has been continually cutting fares back east one market at a time to get more in line with former HP fares. I'm really not surprised at all. The most recent to be announced was Harrisburg, if I remember correctly.
 
mush
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:57 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Thread starter):

Either Parker has indeed changed US' past philosophy of gouging on monopolized routes (old-US would have charged $300+ for March 12) or US isn't aware of WN dropping the route as of yet. I did a similar fare check for March 19 and came up w/the same fare as March 12. I will check their fares (particularly the March 12 fare) a week from now to see whether US will increase its fare. Personally, I hope that it's the former and not the latter.

The problem with checking for the March 12 flight a week from now is that by then all of the seats in that fare bucket may be sold out and all you may have left is more expensive fares. A better indicator of US raising their fares is whether the average fare for US goes up. I don't know how to check that, but I'm sure someone on this site knows...

Thanks,
mush
Sprung from cages out on highway 9
 
PHLBOS
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:56 am

Quoting Mush (Reply 21):
The problem with checking for the March 12 flight a week from now is that by then all of the seats in that fare bucket may be sold out and all you may have left is more expensive fares.

You missed this little tid-bit from my original post. Bold added:

Quoting PHLBOS (Thread starter):
I did a similar fare check for March 19 and came up w/the same fare as March 12.

Past example: When it was learned/known that FL was dropping its then-recent PHL-PIT route back in 2002; US (old) started posting significantly (tripled in some instances) higher fares for any flight scheduled immediately following FL discontinuing the route.

US did similar several times during the 1990s when any carrier (ML & Nations Air come to mind) dropped a route that competed w/them.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 20):
US has been continually cutting fares back east one market at a time to get more in line with former HP fares. I'm really not surprised at all. The most recent to be announced was Harrisburg, if I remember correctly.

You are correct reg. MDT. Let's just hope that fare cutting (on non-competetive routes) includes PHL as well. One needs to keep in mind that many PHL travelers are more familiar w/how old-US operates (which includes setting fares) rather than the new-US (aka HP/US).
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mush
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:20 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 22):
You missed this little tid-bit from my original post. Bold added:

You missed my whole point. I didn't mean checking the date for March 12 and March 19. I meant you checking the price for March 12 today (24 January 2007) and checking the price again for March 12 one week from today (31 January 2007). In one weeks time all of the seats in the cheapest fare bucket may be sold out and the remaining seats may be in a more expensive fare bucket. A somewhat hidden way for US to raise their prices is that they may begin to offer less seats at the cheapest price.
For example (these numbers are made up):
Pre-Southwest withdrawal US offered 20 seats at the cheapest price, 10 seats at the low middle price, 10 seats at the high middle price, and 10 seats at the highest price.
Post-Southwest withdrawal US offers only 10 seats at the cheapest price, 10 seats at the low middle price, 10 seats at the high middle price, and now 20 seats at the most expensive price.

In this case, US has not raised their fares. They have merely reallocated the number of seats to be sold at each fare level.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 22):
Past example: When it was learned/known that FL was dropping its then-recent PHL-PIT route back in 2002; US (old) started posting significantly (tripled in some instances) higher fares for any flight scheduled immediately following FL discontinuing the route.

Thanks for the example, hopefully US has learned that it doesn't serve to alienate their customer base by price gouging them.

thanks,
mush
Sprung from cages out on highway 9
 
PVD757
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:23 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 8):
True. With the improvements on Rte. 146 being mostly done, PVD is maybe 20 minutes farther from Sturbridge.

and no traffic from the airport > PVD - route 37 - route 295 - route 146...
 
richierich
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:55 am

Didn't WN start BDL-PHL with six or seven flights a day? I didn't realize they were down to just three (and soon 'none').

Quoting ScottB (Reply 8):
Absolutely agreed...when the heck are they going to finish that stretch east of Waterbury?!

I drove that stretch of I-84 a couple of weeks ago and it was basically done. The highway still bottlenecks down to two lanes near Exit 25, but the whole part through Cheshire and Southington is complete, as far as I can tell.

Quoting Mush (Reply 23):
Thanks for the example, hopefully US has learned that it doesn't serve to alienate their customer base by price gouging them

Maybe its the cynic in me, but don't bet on it. The BDL-PHL prices on US will increase soon - its funny what no competition can do!
None shall pass!!!!
 
PHLBOS
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:22 am

Quoting PVD757 (Reply 24):
Quoting ScottB (Reply 8):
True. With the improvements on Rte. 146 being mostly done, PVD is maybe 20 minutes farther from Sturbridge.

and no traffic from the airport > PVD - route 37 - route 295 - route 146...

Done that commute a couple times as well. Usually the biggest issue with that commute is whether or not westbound I-90 (Mass Pike) has a backup at the Sturbridge (Exit 9: I-84) toll plaza. If I know of it backing up either before I get on the Pike (at Exit 10A) or I pass Exit 10 (I-290/395: Auburn) ; then I can use US 20 as an alternate. Thankfully, the reconstruction project (along 20) between Charlton and Sturbridge is finally completed.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 8):
when the heck are they going to finish that stretch east of Waterbury?

I passed through there (I-84) on Dec. 27; it appears that ConnDOT was wrapping the project up... although IIRC, there has been an issue regarding the stormdrains that were installed. That's another topic for another day/thread.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 8):
And both the MHT-PHL and PVD-PHL markets grew far more dramatically than BDL-PHL in response to WN's entry.

That's partly due to WN's starting those routes first (PHL-BDL wasn't added until Nov. 2004) and advertising MHT & PVD as The Better Way to Boston; although FL's presence in the PHL-BOS market does keep those fares reasonable.

What could WN say about BDL beyond Hartford/Springfield... A Better Way to WorcesterBig grin

Quoting ScottB (Reply 3):
WN actually had 43% of the O&D BDL-PHL market in the second quarter; the problem was, 43% of 382 daily passengers (both ways) isn't anywhere near enough to fill three round-trips on 737's.

Based on those numbers; 43% of 382 is 164 (rounded off the 0.26 decimal). That means US/USx flies 218 daily O&D passengers with 8 flights (equipment ranging from 50-pass CRJs, 70-pass E-170s to one 737/A319).

Out of curiousity, does anyone know what the connecting traffic loads were for PHL-BDL flights?
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
PVD757
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:23 am

Quoting Richierich (Reply 25):
Didn't WN start BDL-PHL with six or seven flights a day?

they started with 5 (same as PVD). They went to 4 early last year, 3 late last year and then none this March.
 
ScottB
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:36 am

Quoting Richierich (Reply 25):
Didn't WN start BDL-PHL with six or seven flights a day?

They started with five on 10/31/04 and seemed to have given it a couple of years to try to work. The traffic numbers did increase, but MHT and PVD did far better.

Quoting Richierich (Reply 25):
I drove that stretch of I-84 a couple of weeks ago and it was basically done. The highway still bottlenecks down to two lanes near Exit 25, but the whole part through Cheshire and Southington is complete

Most of it looked done this past summer but they consistently had lanes blocked off with traffic cones and the speed limit down to 40 at all hours.  irked 

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 17):
Its a 20-30 minute flight. What is so special about WN over US?

Well, even on a short WN flight, you typically won't get the "due to the short duration of this flight, we will not be offering beverage service" excuse. WN's FA's bust their a$$es, even on short hops like AUS-HOU. You also won't end up on Barbie's Dream Jet or deal with the customer service debacle known as PHL Terminal F (or Terminal F'd to some).

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 14):
Not really. 95 is a mess and is worse traffic wise the closer you get to the city.

Which is why one might try to "skirt the city" and avoid the Cross Bronx Expwy/GW Bridge.
 
Cadet57
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:41 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 28):
Which is why one might try to "skirt the city" and avoid the Cross Bronx Expwy/GW Bridge.

I wouldent know. Ive only taken it by road once. I ususally take the train.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
zrb2
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:51 am

Any chance of SW tapping into the PHL-BUF market? For too long that route has been dominated by US with high airfares. They would benefit from the Southern Ontario market as well.
 
PHLBOS
Topic Author
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Thu Jan 25, 2007 4:35 am

Quoting ZRB2 (Reply 30):
Any chance of SW tapping into the PHL-BUF market?

From one of my earlier posts (originally from the article): Bold empasis added:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 5):
Southwest has not decided yet what additional cities it will fly to from Philadelphia. Among the candidates are Washington (Dulles Airport); Cleveland; Denver; Kansas City, Mo.; St. Louis; Louisville, Ky.; Birmingham, Ala.; Albany, N.Y.; Buffalo; and Norfolk, Va.

So PHL-BUF could be in the works. I agree w/you; those fares are outrageous. Another true story: last year, a co-worker from my company's Buffalo office (who had to come out the main office in Philly) found out that if one flies WN r/t BUF-BWI and takes Amtrak from BWI to 30th St. Station (Philly); the train fare and airfare combined was significantly cheaper (at least half) than what US was charging r/t BUF-PHL.

Quoting Richierich (Reply 25):
Maybe its the cynic in me, but don't bet on it. The BDL-PHL prices on US will increase soon - its funny what no competition can do!

Increase, most likely. Increase to their (US) Oct. 2004 (pre-WN) levels, if (key word if) HP-US is true to their promise of charging reasonable fares; we'll see.

Like you, I too am a cynic reg. US fares; that's why I was surprised when I discovered that they (US) didn't immediately increase the post-March 10 fares as they've done in past instances.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 28):
Well, even on a short WN flight, you typically won't get the "due to the short duration of this flight, we will not be offering beverage service" excuse. WN's FA's bust their a$$es, even on short hops like AUS-HOU. You also won't end up on Barbie's Dream Jet or deal with the customer service debacle known as PHL Terminal F (or Terminal F'd to some).

Since I've actually flown both USExpress & WN on this route (as stated earlier); I can confirm your comparison assessment. On my BDL-PHL flight (which was on USx (ZW)); the F/A made the similar-referenced announcement but added 3 little words... except upon request. Nearly everyone (myself included among the 20 or so passengers on the flight) requested a beverage. On the earlier WN PHL-BDL flight; we all got their usual peanuts and beverage.

Worth noting: Most of US' PHL-BDL & BDL-PHL routes are now Republic E-170s (which don't always go to Terminal F). I wonder if the lone mainline flight will become an E-190 flight once more become available?
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
A330323X
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Thu Jan 25, 2007 4:37 am

Quoting Richierich (Reply 25):
The BDL-PHL prices on US will increase soon - its funny what no competition can do!

Of course, you ignore that both airlines were losing their shirts on this route--Lehman Brothers think that it's in the three least-profitable routes systemwide for US. Wouldn't it make sense for US to now raise prices some to attempt to cover their costs on the route?  Yeah sure

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 26):
Out of curiousity, does anyone know what the connecting traffic loads were for PHL-BDL flights?

I don't have the time to look up newer stats, but US's load factor (O&D + conx) for PHL-BDL for the year ended 3Q05 was 54%, basically unchanged from a year earlier. With the average aircraft size on the route significantly smaller now than it was then, I'd imagine the load factors are now in the low 70s, approaching the systemwide average.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
PHLBOS
Topic Author
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:37 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 32):
Of course, you ignore that both airlines were losing their shirts on this route--Lehman Brothers think that it's in the three least-profitable routes systemwide for US. Wouldn't it make sense for US to now raise prices some to attempt to cover their costs on the route?

Then why does US offer 8 daily r/ts on this route instead of a more logical 5?
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
A330323X
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Thu Jan 25, 2007 8:55 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 33):
Then why does US offer 8 daily r/ts on this route instead of a more logical 5?

Because 5 dailies wouldn't offer enough frequency for business travellers, and it would further depress yields.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
kstateinALB
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:40 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 5):
Albany, N.Y.;

I was thinking about a PHL-ALB nonstop the other day, whether WN would ever service the route. It would be good competition with US, and I wouldn/t be surprised about it at all.
ALB, DTW, ORD, MDW, MCI, JFK, LGA, LHR, MAD, MSP, IAD, DCA, MCO, ATL, CVG, TUL, MHK, PHL, PIT, DFW, DAL, CLT, IND, AUS,
 
ScottB
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:19 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 34):
Because 5 dailies wouldn't offer enough frequency for business travellers

So 5 daily round-trips were enough in 2003 before WN entered the market because why?
 
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chrisnh
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:47 am

Does anyone have a sense for how 'good' the BDL marjet is for Southwest? One of the planes that served the BDL-PHL run is coming here, to MHT, to do our 6th daily MHT-PHL flight. Personally I don't think it's needed, but the folks at Southwest do. Which begs the question: If BDL is a good Southwest station, why not re-deploy those axed PHL flights to other cities from BDL?

Chris in NH
 
PHLBOS
Topic Author
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:58 pm

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 37):
If BDL is a good Southwest station, why not re-deploy those axed PHL flights to other cities from BDL?

From the article:
Southwest Airlines plans to announce as soon as this spring new routes from Philadelphia International Airport, using five additional departure gates in Terminal E that it expects to have by Oct. 15, chief executive officer Gary C. Kelly said yesterday.
...
The additional gates Southwest needs were promised late last month, when the airport settled a yearlong dispute between US Airways Group Inc. and city officials. The agreement provides for Delta Air Lines Inc. to move its operations from four gates it now leases in Terminal E to space in Terminal A-East.


In a nutshell, the PHL-BDL flights being dropped is a byproduct of WN redeploying flights out of PHLmainly in response to obtaining more gates at PHL.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
mush
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:47 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 31):
So PHL-BUF could be in the works. I agree w/you; those fares are outrageous. Another true story: last year, a co-worker from my company's Buffalo office (who had to come out the main office in Philly) found out that if one flies WN r/t BUF-BWI and takes Amtrak from BWI to 30th St. Station (Philly); the train fare and airfare combined was significantly cheaper (at least half) than what US was charging r/t BUF-PHL.

It's cheaper, but how much longer does it take to complete the trip? If it takes an extra 4 hours and the price is $200 higher it's only $50/hour. If the billable rate for that employee is over $50/per hour, you would actually be saving your client money by taking a shorter trip.

Quoting A330323X (Reply 34):
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 33):
Then why does US offer 8 daily r/ts on this route instead of a more logical 5?

Because 5 dailies wouldn't offer enough frequency for business travellers, and it would further depress yields.

So you would rather have 8 money losing flights than 5 money losing flights. I don't buy into the depressing yields story either. If there were 5 flights you're saying that business travelers somehow wouldn't need to travel anymore...please explain your thought process because for me it doesn't add up.

thanks,
mush
Sprung from cages out on highway 9
 
RL757PVD
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:01 pm

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 37):
Does anyone have a sense for how 'good' the BDL marjet is for Southwest?

Looking at their growth, id say they have had limited sucess at BDL

PVD(1996) = 34 flights
MHT(1998) = 28, going to 30 flights
BDL(1999) = 22 going to 19 flights

Im sure BDL works for them, but it doesnt appear to be a "shining star" for Southwest.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
PHLBOS
Topic Author
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:17 am

Quoting Mush (Reply 39):
It's cheaper, but how much longer does it take to complete the trip? If it takes an extra 4 hours and the price is $200 higher it's only $50/hour. If the billable rate for that employee is over $50/per hour, you would actually be saving your client money by taking a shorter trip.


The time trade-off usually involved my co-worker (for the return trip) leaving the office 1 or 2 hours earlier to do the Amtrak/WN routine. However, since we are talking about PHL here; any airport-related delay there could level the time difference further.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
steeler83
Posts: 7700
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:30 am

Quoting CentPIT (Reply 15):
This was mentioned earlier on another thread. PHL-BDL was the worst performing route for WN in PHL, but something that makes me laugh is that PHL-PIT is the second worst. PHL-PIT is currently at 7 daily Southwest flights, with US running 11 daily flights, so it would be hard to have great loads on all 7 daily flights. I have flown PIT-PHL with no empty seats, so I am sure it depends on the days, but WN won't be cutting PHL-PIT.

There was one day when WN 1531 was half-full. It was January 1st, 2006, last year. That could be due to the fact that it was New Years day and that it was a Tuesday Morning... The other 3 WN flights I took between PHL and PIT, I could count the empty seats on one hand...

The same thing with the most recent trip, although it was US E70 aircraft, but still. There were 5 empty seats or less on those aircraft. The one was in the early afternoon (PHL-PIT) and the other one was early in the morning (PIT-PHL). It could also do with the time of day as well. PIT usually has a morning rush between 7 and 9 AM and again in the early evening if I am not mistaken... I also believe that is when most of the mainline flights depart too, if not all of them...

PHL is busy almost 'round the clock... This lost service I am sure is no big deal for PHL. I guess even the biggest O&D pools have at least one bad city pair...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
RL757PVD
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:47 am

If most people were just connecting, and BWI is running a 60-70% load factor, then Wn will just assume they can use BWI for their connecting needs, no matter how full the BDL-PHL flights were. if there is no local demand, it does not fit WN's model. Bad thing for BDL is that it will be added to the recent cuts by AA and DL resulting in over 1,200 daily seats being lost year over year.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
ScottB
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:47 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 38):
In a nutshell, the PHL-BDL flights being dropped is a byproduct of WN redeploying flights out of PHL mainly in response to obtaining more gates at PHL.

Actually, I'd say that it was a decision (at the time) in response to not being able to obtain additional gates; the agreement to free up gates with Delta's move to A-East was only done in the past few weeks. I don't think it's a coincidence that four flights are being added from PHL at the same time those three are being dropped. Now, I would have guessed that they could get 80+ flights out of 8 gates, but they may be choosing to limit operations during the heaviest US Airways departure/arrival banks, too.
 
richierich
Moderator
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Fri Jan 26, 2007 5:10 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 32):

Of course, you ignore that both airlines were losing their shirts on this route--Lehman Brothers think that it's in the three least-profitable routes systemwide for US. Wouldn't it make sense for US to now raise prices some to attempt to cover their costs on the route?

Net result - prices increase. I understand the finances behind it but the end result is the same. It will now cost more (probably considerably more) to fly to PHL from Hartford. C'est la vie.
None shall pass!!!!
 
silentbob
Posts: 1615
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:26 pm

RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Fri Jan 26, 2007 5:19 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 31):
Worth noting: Most of US' PHL-BDL & BDL-PHL routes are now Republic E-170s (which don't always go to Terminal F). I wonder if the lone mainline flight will become an E-190 flight once more become available?

I've never seen an E-170 at F. Usually they're at the base of the B&C terminals, using the same games as mainline, if I remember correctly.
 
PHLBOS
Topic Author
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RE: WN Dropping PHL-BDL After March 10

Fri Jan 26, 2007 5:57 am

Quoting Richierich (Reply 45):
Net result - prices increase. I understand the finances behind it but the end result is the same. It will now cost more (probably considerably more) to fly to PHL from Hartford. C'est la vie.

I ran another fare check on US' website (this time more detailed)... no major change/increase as of yet (for the lowest possible fare). AGAIN, this is a nice/surprise departure from US' past policy of immediately jacking up all the fares the moment a sole competitor either abandons the route and/or leaves PHL.

However, there is one caveat at when booking day-trip/same-day returns (this is true even today w/WN competition):
In to obtain the $138 r/t fare; one must book either the 1:42 PM or the 8:35 PM for the BDL-PHL return flights. The 3:41 PM & the 5:25 PM flights pushes the r/t fare to $277. The first 4 of the 6 PHL-BDL nonstops have the same low fare. Apparently, for the month of March; US only has 6 PHL-BDL r/t nonstops as opposed to the current 8.

The low $138 r/t (advance booking) on WN apply for all their flights.

In a nutshell, US' fares aren't changing yet; but for someone booking a WN late-afternoon flight today will discover that booking for a similar-timed US flight after March 10 will notice a higher fare.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981

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