http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/070125/20070125005524.html?.v=1

NW is adding a 2nd daily DTW-FRA, to be operated seasonally with a 757-200. Service starts in May 7, 2007 - Oct. 27, 2007 This is in addition to the existing daily A330-300.

LH flies this route too, and also has added a second daily flight for summer 2007. Interesting to see all of the sudden capacity increase on this route.

Does appear to be loaded in the schedule yet, but if this does start on 5/7/07, wouldn't this now become the first Trans-Atlantic 757 route, since most of the other (DUS,BRU,BDL-AMS, etc.) don't start until June and July.

That means this summer on DTW-FRA:
NW A330-300
NW 757-200
LH A330-300
LH A330-300

Good news! Except for the lack of PTV's if you aren't inclined to take a nap or read on the night flight.

I couldn't find it online so any ideas what the times are? Seens like you now will be able to get to FRA as often as AMS.

Not another of those lousy 757 transatlantic flights. The official range of the 757 with the NW configuration is 4000 miles. FRA-DTW is a total distance of 4149 miles. This means denied boarding or unplanned fuel stops as soon as the headwind is a bit stronger. I NEVER would fly this route.

Looks like DTW-FRA will be the longest USA-Europe route op. by 757s.

[Edited 2007-01-25 16:26:50]

No surprise here. I'm surprised NW didn't announce this service long ago. DTW-FRA is a VERY high-yeild market. It will be interesting to see how/if yields go down will almost double capacity on the route compared to last summer.

Will NW's 757's gain more range once they reconfigure them with fewer seats?

Quoting LIPZ (Reply 3): Looks like DTW-FRA will be the longest USA-Europe route op. by 757s.

DTW-FRA - 4,161, miles
EWR-ARN - 3,930 miles


Yep, it's the longest.... wonder how it'll do for westbound fuel stops.

Quoting Mennix (Reply 2): Not another of those lousy 757 transatlantic flights. The official range of the 757 with the NW configuration is 4000 miles. FRA-DTW is a total distance of 4149 miles.

Does anyone remember what ATA's 757 were configured as? I flew them DTW-FRA in the crammed 3x3 seating in summer of '95 and at least on that day we didn't have any fuel stop. But I think there was a stop in Gander if needed, as it said on the ticket.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Thread starter): NW is adding a 2nd daily DTW-FRA, to be operated seasonally with a 757-200. Service starts in May 7, 2007 - Oct. 27, 2007 This is in addition to the existing daily A330-300. LH flies this route too, and also has added a second daily flight for summer 2007. Interesting to see all of the sudden capacity increase on this route. Does appear to be loaded in the schedule yet, but if this does start on 5/7/07, wouldn't this now become the first Trans-Atlantic 757 route, since most of the other (DUS,BRU,BDL-AMS, etc.) don't start until June and July.

There's going to be more. The word is from inflight services, that DTW will have 8-10 new transatlantic flights including the one mentioned. A 2nd daily, season DTW-LGW is likely to return this year. It depends on how many Enhanced 757's we can get fully modified by the summer season

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 5): DTW-FRA - 4,161, miles EWR-ARN - 3,930 miles Yep, it's the longest.... wonder how it'll do for westbound fuel stops.

EWR-TXL is 43nm longer than EWR-ARN, which I believe is currently the longest scheduled 757-200 flight. DTW-FRA will be 3616nm, 158nm longer than EWR-TXL. Eastbound, I think that they'll be alright for the most part, but westbound may be tricky. However, as someone has said above, the range of a 757-200/W for NW is around 4000 miles. If that figure is in nautical miles, then everything will be just fine- especially if NW has taken seats out.
Will the international 757s have the new WBC? How about the new economy seats?

It's loaded in the schedule

NW 96
10:15pm Depart Detroit (DTW)
12:35pm Arrive Frankfurt (FRA)

NW95
2:30pm Depart Frankfurt (FRA)
5:50pm Arrive Detroit (DTW)

I especially like the timing of the return flight.

The DTW-FRA flight is very close to LH's new flight.

LH487 DTW-FRA
9:55pm - 11:55am

LH486 FRA-DTW
5:05pm - 8:05 pm

Personally, I love leaving this late at night so I can sleep on the plane. It's also nice having nearly a full day in FRA, arriving back in the US at night and going straight to bed.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 7): The word is from inflight services, that DTW will have 8-10 new transatlantic flights including the one mentioned.

I think it may be too late at this point to announce new destinations for the next summer.

Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 8): Will the international 757s have the new WBC? How about the new economy seats?

Yes, they will have WBC, and economy will have 34-35" of pitch throughout the cabin, with only 144 seats in Y, 15 less than CO.

http://www.nwa.com/travel/trave/seatm/756atl/index.shtml

Seat map for the Atlantic configuration. I believe the reduction in seats is not to add to passenger comfort, but to allow for increased range.

Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 8): Will the international 757s have the new WBC?

Not the new WBC, but a modified seat.

Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 8): How about the new economy seats?

Not the same ones that A330's have with PTV's, but im sure they will either look like the new 787 Y seats or the A330's seats as far as looks and fabric.

Quoting Neilalp (Reply 1): Good news! Except for the lack of PTV's if you aren't inclined to take a nap or read on the night flight.

So no plans to upgrade the economy seats along with the new WBC ones?

Doesn't make sense that there will be 4 DTW-FRA flights a day, instead of expanding into MUC or DUS

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 16): Doesn't make sense that there will be 4 DTW-FRA flights a day, instead of expanding into MUC or DUS

1. MUC would require atleast an A330 for the range.

2. NW added DUS, its not a established city, unlike FRA.


On a side note Lufthansa is using a 747-400 to DTW currently.

[Edited 2007-01-25 20:24:10]

What is the logic for LH running two daily flights to FRA? Detroit is not an especially affluent market nor is it any kind of economic center. It really strikes me as odd that it would warrant that degree of service. I can understand that NW is relying on connections to a moderate degree, but how much O&D traffic can there really be between Detroit and Frankfurt.

Quoting BAGoldEx (Reply 18): nor is it any kind of economic center.

I heard say they make cars there.... 

Quoting BAGoldEx (Reply 18): Detroit is not an especially affluent market nor is it any kind of economic center. It really strikes me as odd that it would warrant that degree of service. I can understand that NW is relying on connections to a moderate degree, but how much O&D traffic can there really be between Detroit and Frankfurt.

just a stab in the dark, but you do have the Detroit's Big 3 up three, and Chrysler is owend by a german company... add some of the control systems siemens builds for all of those companies and their might be a decent demand... who knows... Lufthansa Adds Extra Daily Frequency DTW-FRA! (by BRAVO7E7 Oct 20 2006 in Civil Aviation)
read that as well, it's from when the second flight started.... good logic in there too

[Edited 2007-01-25 21:19:34]

Quoting BAGoldEx (Reply 18): but how much O&D traffic can there really be between Detroit and Frankfurt.

DTW does not rely on O& D traffic to fill up its DTW-Europe flights. It is the one's and two's they pick up from all the connecting cities in the U.S. The same is true for LH on the Europe side with it's FRA hub.

Quoting BAGoldEx (Reply 18): Detroit is not an especially affluent market nor is it any kind of economic center.

It is arguably the center of the automobile business.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 17): On a side note Lufthansa is using a 747-400 to DTW currently.

The 744 was brought in for extra capacity needed for the auto show. It was the 99-seat business class version and was PACKED!

Quoting BAGoldEx (Reply 18): What is the logic for LH running two daily flights to FRA?

The auto industry on creates a huge amount of very high yielding traffic. I really so think that 4-daily is overkill, but I'm sure that NW was responding to LH's second daily service. Although, I'm sure they would have added additional service sooner or later even if LH didn't add the second flight. I don't think there will be a problem filling the front of the planes, but the back I'm not so sure - although economy seats to Europe are hard to come by in the summer.

Quoting BAGoldEx (Reply 18):

DTW is home to many auto companies that have close relations to German car manufacturers. A classic example of that is Chrysler. They have relations to Daimler Chrysler in Stuttgart. Granted they own an A319CJ that flies out of PTK on a regular basis to STR, there's still enough demand for LH to add an additional frequency for convenience. Otherwise, they might upgrade LH 442/443 to a 744 or (one can dream) A346. Though LH tends to be an airline that runs with the business traveler in mind. They don't care about a larger aircraft, they care about frequency so they have more flexibility.

Even then, I've flown LH 442/443 out of here twice on both the A333 and the A343 and even in coach it was quite full so it shall be interesting on how it works out.

Though the idea of flying a 757 trans-atlantic doesn't thrill me at all. I know I'm going to have to get used to such a sight, but the mentality of it is what bothers me. Especially when I can fly a larger aircraft on the same route that I know can do the route without restrictions.

Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 13): http://www.nwa.com/travel/trave/seatm/756atl/index.shtml Seat map for the Atlantic configuration. I believe the reduction in seats is not to add to passenger comfort, but to allow for increased range.

It's also interesting to note that we're moving the lavatory(fwd of door2 L) behind it, getting rid of the exit row at row 16. And also moving the door 2 R galley back into the main cabin. So the seating will still be be somewhat tight, for the passengers that is.

[Edited 2007-01-25 21:42:34]

I recently flew in and out of Harford Airport (BDL), and not only is the airport excited about the daily 757 to AMS, but so is most of Hartford.

Not having to drive out to Boston or New York for an international flight and face the long lines at both airports appears to be adequate bait for flying a 757 transatlantic, however tight the pitch may be.

I totally forgot about the auto industry, but four flights still seems a bit excessive.

Quoting Neilalp (Reply 6): Does anyone remember what ATA's 757 were configured as? I flew them DTW-FRA in the crammed 3x3 seating in summer of '95 and at least on that day we didn't have any fuel stop. But I think there was a stop in Gander if needed, as it said on the ticket.

I use to work for the company that ran the charters. At the time the ATA 757's had 216 to 218 seats I believe. And most times we had no problem making the return nonstop though at times, i.e. winds or loads we did in fact stop for fuel.

Quoting BAGoldEx (Reply 18): Detroit is not an especially affluent market nor is it any kind of economic center.

= However, DTW is the primary hub for NWA and this is probably targeted towards all those Americans who take their lifetime European trip.

Cheers,
A.

Quoting BAGoldEx (Reply 18): Detroit is not an especially affluent market nor is it any kind of economic center. It really strikes me as odd that it would warrant that degree of service.

Not to burst your bubble, but Detroit has some of the most expensive suburbs of any major American city outside New York or SF. The auto industry still generates a lot of wealth.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 29): Quoting BAGoldEx (Reply 18): Detroit is not an especially affluent market nor is it any kind of economic center. It really strikes me as odd that it would warrant that degree of service. Not to burst your bubble, but Detroit has some of the most expensive suburbs of any major American city outside New York or SF. The auto industry still generates a lot of wealth.

= This is interesting. According to latest estimates, Detroit MSA is 40th in the country in terms of per-capita income.

Link: http://bea.gov/bea/newsrel/MPINewsRelease.htm

Cheers,
A.

P.S.: I would have thought that the wealthy in the auto-industry would like to travel in J class in the U.S. ... this is just an assumption of what wealthy people do on my part.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 29):

so true. From what I read, Oakland County is the third wealthiest county in the United States. It really shows around West Bloomfield and Birmingham, but the areas I live in around Novi and Wixom scream "suburbia".

Quoting LHboyatDTW (Reply 31): so true. From what I read, Oakland County is the third wealthiest county in the United States. It really shows around West Bloomfield and Birmingham, but the areas I live in around Novi and Wixom scream "suburbia".

= I dont think this is true. Oakland is ranked 26th in terms of per capita income. The top 100 are:

1 New York County, New York (Manhattan) $42,922
2 Marin County, California[1] $41,052
3 Pitkin County, Colorado $40,811
4 Fairfield County, Connecticut $38,790
5 Nassau County, New York $38,762
6 Somerset County, New Jersey $37,970
7 Arlington County, Virginia $37,706
8 City of Alexandria, Virginia[2] $37,645
9 Morris County, New Jersey $36,964
10 Fairfax County, Virginia $36,888
11 Westchester County, New York $36,726
12 Hunterdon County, New Jersey $36,370
13 San Mateo County, California $36,045
14 Montgomery County, Maryland $35,684
15 San Miguel County, Colorado $35,329
16 Douglas County, Colorado $34,848
17 Los Alamos County, New Mexico $34,646
18 San Francisco County, California $34,556
19 Summit County, Utah $33,767
20 Bergen County, New Jersey $33,638
21 Loudoun County, Virginia $33,530
23 Collin County, Texas $33,345
24 Hamilton County, Indiana $33,109
25 Santa Clara County, California $32,795
26 Oakland County, Michigan $32,534
27 Williamson County, Tennessee $32,496
28 Norfolk County, Massachusetts $32,484
29 Howard County, Maryland $32,402
30 Teton County, Wyoming $32,151
31 Lake County, Illinois $32,102
32 Eagle County, Colorado $32,011
33 Ozaukee County, Wisconsin $31,947
34 Rockland County, New York $31,680
35 Chester County, Pennsylvania $31,627
36 Delaware County, Ohio $31,600
37 Blaine County, Idaho $31,346
38 DuPage County, Illinois $31,315
39 Nantucket County, Massachusetts $31,314
40 Fairfax, Virginia $31,247
41 Middlesex County, Massachusetts $31,199
42 Collier County, Florida $31,195
43 Monmouth County, New Jersey $31,149
44 Johnson County, Kansas $30,919
45 Montgomery County, Pennsylvania $30,898
46 Contra Costa County, California $30,615
47 San Juan County, Washington $30,603
48 Putnam County, New York $30,127
49 Fulton County, Georgia $30,003
50 Martin County, Florida $29,584
51 King County, Washington $29,521
52 Fayette County, Georgia $29,464
53 James City County, Virginia $29,256
54 Waukesha County, Wisconsin $29,164
55 Forsyth County, Georgia $29,114
56 Goochland County, Virginia $29,105
57 Boulder County, Colorado $28,976
58 Albemarle County, Virginia $28,852
59 Palm Beach County, Florida $28,801
60 Routt County, Colorado $28,792
61 Hennepin County, Minnesota $28,789
62 Fauquier County, Virginia $28,757
63 Summit County, Colorado $28,676
64 St. Johns County, Florida $28,674
65 Washington, District of Columbia $28,659
66 Rockwall County, Texas $28,573
67 Carver County, Minnesota $28,486
68 Litchfield County, Connecticut $28,408
69 Sarasota County, Florida $28,326
70 Middlesex County, Connecticut $28,251
71 Talbot County, Maryland $28,164
72 Clear Creek County, Colorado $28,160
73 Washington County, Minnesota $28,148
74 Arapahoe County, Colorado $28,147
76 Livingston County, Michigan $28,069
77 Jefferson County, Colorado $28,066
78 Placer County, California $27,963
79 Geauga County, Ohio $27,944
80 Mercer County, New Jersey $27,914
81 Cobb County, Georgia $27,863
82 St. Louis County, Missouri $27,595
83 Anne Arundel County, Maryland $27,578
84 Bucks County, Pennsylvania $27,430
85 Mecklenburg County, North Carolina $27,352
86 Douglas County, Nevada $27,288
87 Indian River County, Florida $27,227
88 Shelby County, Alabama $27,176
89 Washtenaw County, Michigan $27,173
90 Dakota County, Minnesota $27,008
91 Wake County, North Carolina $27,004
92 Sussex County, New Jersey $26,992
93 Union County, New Jersey $26,992
94 Denton County, Texas $26,895
95 Newport County, Rhode Island $26,779
96 Juneau, Alaska $26,719
97 Alameda County, California $26,680
98 Rockingham County, New Hampshire $26,656
99 Suffolk County, New York $26,577
100 Middlesex County, New Jersey $26,535

Cheers,
A.

Edited to add: In some ways, it is irrelavant to discuss average county income anyways. What matters is that there are enough people with high incomes that apparently justify NW's demand ex-DTW as some posters have claimed. I personally thought the wealthy would take J class; but have no evidence on how the motor-elites travel. Irrespective, a comparison of county average income is (in my opinion) not as important in discussing demand.

[Edited 2007-01-25 22:21:58]

Isn't this flight a little over what the 757 can do?

According to nwa.com here are the specs for the Trans-Atlantic 757's

B757-200 Atlantic
Wingspan 134 ft. 7 in.
Length 155 ft. 3 in.
Tail Height 44 ft. 6 in
Range 4,000 miles
Cruising Speed 530 mph
Fuel Tank Capacity 11,489 gallons
Cargo Capacity 6.34 tons
Seating Capacity 160
Engines 2 jet attached to wings

What if there are headwinds or unexpected delays in the air. I guess they will just put it down somewhere else and refuel?

There are 7 more 330 deliveries this year I believe and that will fulfill the current order as far as I know for a total of 32. Perhaps some of them will find new routes from DTW?

The point is, I'm talking about the entire metroplitan area. There is no way one can compare the widespread wealth of metro NY, SF, DC, Boston and Philadelphia to a few relatively small suburbs of detroit. That's the point, nothing more, nothing less. The suburbs are nice, but I can't think of many places in Detroit proper where I would feel safe walking down the street.

Quoting DTW757 (Reply 33): What if there are headwinds or unexpected delays in the air. I guess they will just put it down somewhere else and refuel?

Probably, it makes more sense than just letting it run out of fuel and risk a crash. It certainly wouldn't be the first time an airline has had to do this. The fine folks at jetblue are quite well versed in this practice.

LH can also help fill the flight with passengers heading from DTW to the Middle East.

The Detroit area has one of the largest Muslim communities in the Western Hemisphere. Royal Jordanian flies from DTW to Amman, but many other Detroit residents flying to the Middle East to visit their extended families take BA through LHR, LH through FRA, AF through CDG, or NW / KL through AMS.

Quoting LHboyatDTW (Reply 31): From what I read, Oakland County is the third wealthiest county in the United States.

Like stated above....sadly that is no longer true. I think that might have been the case back in the late 90's. Many other places have move up.

Quoting Mennix (Reply 2): Not another of those lousy 757 transatlantic flights. The official range of the 757 with the NW configuration is 4000 miles. FRA-DTW is a total distance of 4149 miles. This means denied boarding or unplanned fuel stops as soon as the headwind is a bit stronger. I NEVER would fly this route.

Well, unlike you, most of the flying public could care less if it's a 757. It has the range, especially if it has winglets, and an airline isn't going to fly an unsafe route.

As for your assertion of denied boarding/unplanned fuel stops, that's possible on very windy days from LGW, but not likely from DTW.

And besides, what do you care? You're not flying it anyway?  

Some people fail to remember when an aircraft the relative size of a 757 was what used to fly over the pond.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 25): however tight the pitch may be.

The pitch on NW's 757 will be more then what their A330's have. A lot more then CO's of which NW will have like 40 less seats or something to that effect.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 38): As for your assertion of denied boarding/unplanned fuel stops, that's possible on very windy days from LGW, but not likely from DTW.

NW already has them planned coming west bound, they only allow 15 up front instead of 16 and 140-142 in back.

great news for my friends at NW...
enjoy the Weizen Bier und Sauerkraut!

Quoting Mennix (Reply 2): Not another of those lousy 757 transatlantic flights.

Don't worry, as soon as they get'em they'll put A380s on this route!

I hate to bring this up. But now that we know the 757-200 has the legs will NW put one on the IND-AMS route? That is 4171 miles versus 4161 for DTW-FRA.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Thread starter):

This is sickening how airlines are using such small aircraft over the atlantic. Just another reason out of the million reasons why i don't fly NW

Quoting AA757BOY (Reply 43): This is sickening how airlines are using such small aircraft over the atlantic. Just another reason out of the million reasons why i don't fly NW

Sickening? When the aircraft can make it? When the route calls for it? When it's the size of plane that used to fly across the pond before the day of jumbo's and widebodies?

It isn't sickening. It's good utilization of resources. CO has built up it's international presence in Europe almost exclusively on the backs of 752's, going to secondary markets.

Nothing sickening about it, unless you're a 20 year-old, armchair CEO who doesn't understand the nature of the business in 2007.

To me the extra leg room will be a big selling point. Other than the PTVs is there really a down side to the 752? Wouldn't the pitch more than make up for it? I think it would be nice to be able to stretch your legs a bit on an 8 hour flight.

Doesn't NWA not have any IFE on there singlebody aircrafts? I can't imagine a 8 hour transatlantic flight without any IFE offering.

The 752 I was on a few months back had IFE that wasn't on. But no PTVs.

Take the short hop to ORD (make sure you have time to connect) and fly a UA B777. It will most likely save time in the long run +++ at least on the return.

Quoting AA757BOY (Reply 43): This is sickening how airlines are using such small aircraft over the atlantic. Just another reason out of the million reasons why i don't fly NW

I never understood the whining and the crying about narrowbodies on TATLs. If it has the same seat and the same basic "personal space" as a widebody, what bloody difference does it make? Bigger isn't always better.