Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, hOMSaR

 
hardiwv
Topic Author
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:36 am

Yet again, AF-KL Group post strong results for Brazil in December/06.

Loads were as follows:

AF GRU-CDG daily B77W and 6 x week A330: 90.1%
AF GIG-CDG daily B747: 91.5%
KL GRU-AMS daily B777: 89.7%

Average loads of 90%, well above the Group's world average of 78%.

GIG will see capacity double to twice daily in October/07 meaning that AF-KL will keep growing in Brazil.

Rgs,
 
EGBJ
Posts: 475
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:05 pm

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:50 am

Thanks for the info Big grin

Great news for AF/KL. How do these loads compare with TAM's loads to CDG??
 
Brasuca
Posts: 684
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:09 am

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:46 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
GIG will see capacity double to twice daily in October/07 meaning that AF-KL will keep growing in Brazil.

What about KLM?
Are they going to swap the 772 for the 747/773 or restart GIG?
Varig, Varig, Varig
 
hardiwv
Topic Author
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:17 am

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 2):
Are they going to swap the 772 for the 747/773 or restart GIG?

KL will not restart GIG, however, they will boost operations in GRU by introducing the B747 refitted with World Business Class, which means additional 100 seats/day.

Rgs,
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4100
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:15 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 3):
KL will not restart GIG, however, they will boost operations in GRU by introducing the B747 refitted with World Business Class, which means additional 100 seats/day

This upgrade is not yet entirely confirmed, and it might very well be CPT which ends up with the service as well. The full pax 744 is coming off AMS SFO next winter and will likely be sent to either GRU or CPT, while SFO will get the B772 for the winter.
 
PHKLM
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:21 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 4):
This upgrade is not yet entirely confirmed, and it might very well be CPT which ends up with the service as well. The full pax 744 is coming off AMS SFO next winter and will likely be sent to either GRU or CPT, while SFO will get the B772 for the winter.

When are the 77W's entering the fleet?
SFO, GRU and CPT seem the right 77W destinations for KLM to me. But well, KLM wil know better.
I am VERY curious how those 77W's will look like, I have heard rumours here they will be low-yield holiday planes with 3-4-3 in Y but I reckon they will introduce L'Espace Premiere, full-flat seats in J and 3-3-3 in Y with 21" PTV's *wishful thinking*
Any case, I'll be at the roof terrace at AMS when the first one arrives  Smile
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:28 am

Quoting EGBJ (Reply 1):
How do these loads compare with TAM's loads to CDG??

Tam loads are also very high, but they use all A332 (which means smaller planes and less seats). During the last 3 days, i only have info for the GIG-CDG departing with around 90% - 95%

Side note, JJ international lounge at GIG is almost ready!

Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
AF GIG-CDG daily B747: 91.5%

Lets see January with JJ daily service.

One thing we have to say is that AF is really committed to Brazil. Their call center is faster than JJ, people are very friendly all times and their timetable to Brazil is just perfect with daylights and overnight flights. Also, it's very rare to saw a complain against AF ! I believe it's one of the major reasons for AF success in Brazil.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
ordryan28
Posts: 963
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:24 am

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:20 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
AF GIG-CDG daily B747: 91.5%

Great news for AF. Anytime you fill a 747 up to atleast 85%, you're doing damn well...

Maybe the A380 will be used to Brazil in the future...
Whoever said winning is not everything never fought cancer.
 
AF086
Posts: 581
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:45 am

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:12 pm

Amazing. That's why the brazilian Air France staff states that "there's no low season". Let's see how these numbers will be affected by JJ's new GIG-CDG and by AF's second daily flight to GIG (AF's second flight will begin on 28OCT).

[Edited 2007-01-30 04:28:39]
Please insert a "smart" joke here.
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4100
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:21 pm

Quoting ORDRyan28 (Reply 7):
Great news for AF. Anytime you fill a 747 up to atleast 85%, you're doing damn well...

Maybe the A380 will be used to Brazil in the future...

Air France is very likely to change the B744 on CDG GIG with a B777 (either 772 or 77W) for the overnight flight once the second daily flight comes online at the onset of the winter timetable. As such, the overall number of Y seats would remain more or less stable, thereby protecting the yields, whereas the number of premium seats would substantially increase. GIG has been suffering from a lack of upfront seats as the 744 is only equipped with 40 Affaires seats. The deployment of the triple seven would also entail a reintroduction of L'Espace Premiere on the CDG GIG route.
 
hardiwv
Topic Author
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:37 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 4):
This upgrade is not yet entirely confirmed, and it might very well be CPT which ends up with the service as well. The full pax 744 is coming off AMS SFO next winter and will likely be sent to either GRU or CPT, while SFO will get the B772 for the winter.

Thanks for the information. I strongly believe that KL will deploy the full pax B747 to GRU as opposed to CPT. KL's loads to GRU are on average 90%, which is very high. In addition, AF finished its expansion in GRU for the time being, with double daily flights. So it is up to KL now to deliver.

I will cross my fingers for the KL B747 to GRU: C in KL's upperdeck makes all the difference!

[ as a side note, I also understand that CPT has changes taking into account that in the overall pie KL has priority for the South African market over AF].

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 6):
Side note, JJ international lounge at GIG is almost ready!

Great news! GIG deserved a dedicated JJ lounge. Smart move by JJ.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 6):
Lets see January with JJ daily service.

Considering JJ only started GIG-CDG mid-January, and tha JJ had problems with MD-11 delivery, perhaps better would be to start making data analysis in February or March.

The indications are that loads are as high as before.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 6):
One thing we have to say is that AF is really committed to Brazil. Their call center is faster than JJ, people are very friendly all times and their timetable to Brazil is just perfect with daylights and overnight flights. Also, it's very rare to saw a complain against AF ! I believe it's one of the major reasons for AF success in Brazil.

Agree, AF is indeed very committed to Brazil, but especially to GIG market. I remember quite well that during the "crisis" period after 09/11, when international traffic decreased, and many airlines abandoned GIG (notably LH), AF decided to remain in GIG. Now AF is getting the benefits of being Rio's de facto international airline.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 9):
Air France is very likely to change the B744 on CDG GIG with a B777 (either 772 or 77W) for the overnight flight once the second daily flight comes online

The replacement of the B747 with the B772 or B77W would make all sense. It means that the introduction of the second daily A330 will not change the total supply of Y, protecting yields. However, as you said, it would boost supply in premium seats, and offer a more attractive timetable with 2 daily departures. Although I think GIG could handle the B747 simultaneously with the A330 during Winter (Northern Hemisphere).

Rgs,
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4100
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:34 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 10):
Thanks for the information. I strongly believe that KL will deploy the full pax B747 to GRU as opposed to CPT.

The latest information I received is that neither GRU nor CPT will get the B744 which comes off the SFO route. The aircraft is now scheduled to be deployed on AMS DEL. Of course, things can still change, and meanwhile, I do have agree with you that the privacy of the upperdeck of the B744 makes a world of difference and even beats the crap out of the nose section of the AF B744.
 
loalq
Posts: 209
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:24 pm

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:30 pm

Well, this is my first post on A.net and all I can say is that I am very glad to be here. Hope I can add something to the discussions here...

Coming back to this post, IMO AF only kept GIG because it was financially worth it and nothing else. They have huge problems with regards to costumer care that would give them even bigger problems if the GIG-Euro route was not so demanded these days (and with few options as well).

Also, I think that the LH-RG code-share to FRA was the main driver behind LH leaving GIG, and that would still make sense today if RG was in better shape. Anyway, I miss LH in GIG...

Regards, Loalq.
"...this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem. All four engines have stopped."
 
hardiwv
Topic Author
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:53 pm

Welcome to a.net!

Quoting Loalq (Reply 12):
Also, I think that the LH-RG code-share to FRA was the main driver behind LH leaving GIG, and that would still make sense today if RG was in better shape. Anyway, I miss LH in GIG...

It is high time for LH to reestablish FRA-GIG nonstop. Apparently LH management is very stubborn. It is also very well known that LH could not get it right in South America while AF is giving a lesson to LH in this region.

LH not having FRA-EZE nonstop is another absurdity in my view.

Quoting Loalq (Reply 12):
Coming back to this post, IMO AF only kept GIG because it was financially worth it and nothing else. They have huge problems with regards to costumer care that would give them even bigger problems if the GIG-Euro route was not so demanded these days (and with few options as well).

AF has built a solid customer base in Rio de Janeiro. It will be very difficult for LH to compete again with AF, although never is too late.

Rgs,
 
goldorak
Posts: 1460
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:29 am

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:55 am

Quoting Loalq (Reply 12):
They have huge problems with regards to costumer care

what do you mean ?
 
loalq
Posts: 209
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:24 pm

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:23 am

Hello Goldorak!
See you are FB Platinum and I have been Gold for two years now. I am also a big fan of AF and I must admit that it actually has the best connection for me when I go to Rio (leaving from GVA).

But I am currently very disappointed by the way they are handling their costumers and I know a good bunch of stories to tell. My parents are waiting for a reply from AF Costumer Care since Oct/06, when they were assigned a seat that was not reclining and had its PVT broken, despite many calls, faxes, etc. Also a friend was left in CDG over christmas because they were so overbooked that they had to relocate folks from business to economy. She was sent to a hotel with no meals paid...

But hey, unfortunately it seems these are common things in the industry today and I do not expect to find a perfect airline...but still, when competition comes to GIG, I don't think we will be seeing many people sticking to AF "because it is better"...

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 13):
AF has built a solid customer base in Rio de Janeiro. It will be very difficult for LH to compete again with AF, although never is too late.

It is all in the price...if you consider that C class is the moneymaker of the long haul airlines, and that the majority of tickets are bought and paid by companies (and not individuals), whichever has the lowest price will be better off...
"...this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem. All four engines have stopped."
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:06 am

Quoting Loalq (Reply 12):
Well, this is my first post on A.net and all I can say is that I am very glad to be here. Hope I can add something to the discussions here...

Welcome to A.Net !

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 9):
The deployment of the triple seven would also entail a reintroduction of L'Espace Premiere on the CDG GIG route.

If AF really reintroduce F to GIG, i'm sure they will get very good numbers! And will be interesting if AF runs 77W + A332, keep the same size for it's two brazilian markets.

HB-IWC, if AF changes from 744 to 772 or 77W, do you think that the A332 flights could be confirmed year-round ?

Quoting Loalq (Reply 15):
But hey, unfortunately it seems these are common things in the industry today and I do not expect to find a perfect airline...but still, when competition comes to GIG, I don't think we will be seeing many people sticking to AF "because it is better"...

Agree with you, but AF keep a strong advantage with a established base of customers even in Rio. LH for example, if decide to resume GIG-FRA, will need to fight against AF, JJ, TP (another airline that probably will increase flights to Rio shortly) and even IB and UX with less frequencies.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
goldorak
Posts: 1460
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:29 am

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:22 am

Quoting Loalq (Reply 15):
Hello Goldorak!
See you are FB Platinum and I have been Gold for two years now. I am also a big fan of AF and I must admit that it actually has the best connection for me when I go to Rio (leaving from GVA).

But I am currently very disappointed by the way they are handling their costumers and I know a good bunch of stories to tell. My parents are waiting for a reply from AF Costumer Care since Oct/06, when they were assigned a seat that was not reclining and had its PVT broken, despite many calls, faxes, etc. Also a friend was left in CDG over christmas because they were so overbooked that they had to relocate folks from business to economy. She was sent to a hotel with no meals paid...

But hey, unfortunately it seems these are common things in the industry today and I do not expect to find a perfect airline...but still, when competition comes to GIG, I don't think we will be seeing many people sticking to AF "because it is better"...

Hello Loalq and welcome on A.net !!
thanks for the precision. This is bad that they are still waiting for a reply. Everytime I wrote a letter, I always had an answer within 2 weeks. Let's hope !  Wink
 
jog
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:40 am

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:38 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 6):
Lets see January with JJ daily service.

Interesting to see that KL has its codeshare on JJ8086 as KL3000 GRU-GIG-CDG all the way until CDG until 14th February... Is that bookable or just a technicality as KL uses the GRU-GIG flight as the connecting flight to its AMS-GRU service?
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:44 am

The JJ8086 replaced JJ8011 which is also GRU-GIG for KL code-share. I believe it allows only GRU-GIG leg Jog. After Feb 14 the M11 will join the fleet, and the GRU-GIG leg will return to be JJ8095 as MIA-GRU-GIG

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4100
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:39 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 16):
HB-IWC, if AF changes from 744 to 772 or 77W, do you think that the A332 flights could be confirmed year-round ?

That would be the plan indeed, yet I think Air France will wait and see how the additional GIG flight is doing before making any firm commitments to that. Also, there will now be more competition in the market with the start of JJ's own GIG CDG service.
 
jog
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:40 am

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:55 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 19):
I believe it allows only GRU-GIG leg Jog

Ok, I only was surprised when I checked today's GRU-CDG arrivals at the website of CDG and it showed the KL3000. I then checked KL's online schedule on their website and even there a connection GIG-CDG-AMS is possible with GIG-CDG being on KL3000 (though I couldn't buy any GIG tickets through the website)...
 
hardiwv
Topic Author
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:56 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 20):
Air France will wait and see how the additional GIG flight is doing before making any firm commitments to that.

Agree. We all cross our finger for the permanent twice daily flights. GIG deserves it! My expectations now are regarding the combination of a/c in the route, perhaps AF even maintains the B747 which would mean a huge increase in Y supply. I am sure other airlines will be watchfull to AF performance in the route.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 16):
If AF really reintroduce F to GIG, i'm sure they will get very good numbers!

I have my doubts, as stated many times. However, I could be wrong - and I do hope so. The introduction of dedicated F to GIG would be a major achievement.

Rgs,
 
loalq
Posts: 209
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:24 pm

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:55 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 22):

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 16):
If AF really reintroduce F to GIG, i'm sure they will get very good numbers!

I have my doubts, as stated many times. However, I could be wrong - and I do hope so. The introduction of dedicated F to GIG would be a major achievement.

Agree with you. My understanding is that F is not as important as C, economically speaking, because the majority of F passengers are actually non-rev (mainly upgrades, mileage, etc). Also as far as I know there are few (if any) companies that allows their employees to take F class these days. I for instance work in a 35K+ employees company where the CEO flies a Legacy  Cool and everybody else flies either C or Y (depending on your position).

But then again, it is something that only make sense provided that AF is not able to keep its high loads GIG-CDG with two daily flights. *And* if they put up a decent and dedicated F class lounge in GIG...
"...this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem. All four engines have stopped."
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:21 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 20):
That would be the plan indeed, yet I think Air France will wait and see how the additional GIG flight is doing before making any firm commitments to that. Also, there will now be more competition in the market with the start of JJ's own GIG CDG service.

I really expect that AF wait till december/january in order to decide if they will run 14x year round or not. If GIG do not receive any further service (i.e. LH or VS), i believe wil be easy to see AF running more than 7 weekly flights year round.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4100
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:50 pm

Quoting Loalq (Reply 23):
My understanding is that F is not as important as C, economically speaking, because the majority of F passengers are actually non-rev (mainly upgrades, mileage, etc).

Air France has been trying to restrict these non revenue passengers in L'Espace Premiere (F) by dramatically diminishing its F offerings to just the B772/B77W aircraft and even there the number of F seats have been seriously reduced. The retrofitted B772ER is feature an F-cabin with only 4 seats in order to largely restrict the passengers there to be revenue passengers.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 24):
I really expect that AF wait till december/january in order to decide if they will run 14x year round or not.

Well, the second daily flight is loaded in the reservation systems and very much open for booking, so I am pretty sure that Air France is firmly committed to actually operating 14 weekly frequencies starting the end of October. What happens S08 will indeed depend on the performance of the route during its first months of operation.
 
loalq
Posts: 209
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:24 pm

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:56 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 25):
Air France has been trying to restrict these non revenue passengers in L'Espace Premiere (F) by dramatically diminishing its F offerings to just the B772/B77W aircraft and even there the number of F seats have been seriously reduced. The retrofitted B772ER is feature an F-cabin with only 4 seats in order to largely restrict the passengers there to be revenue passengers.

That is the best thing to do, it really does not make sense to have F class only to accomodate overbooked C class passengers...

I am trying to do some calculations here and so I am guessing that AF could fit (in a 777) 14 C class seats (2 rows) in the same space as 4 F class (one row), would you consider this to be correct?
"...this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem. All four engines have stopped."
 
hardiwv
Topic Author
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:50 pm

Quoting Loalq (Reply 23):
Agree with you. My understanding is that F is not as important as C, economically speaking, because the majority of F passengers are actually non-rev (mainly upgrades, mileage, etc).

100% correct. F in most routes are a money-drainer. It is usually filled with non-revs pax, either miles or upgrade or staff. I mysefl have only flown F because of upgrade and can tell you that most people in F cabin are non-revs.

One anecdote: my last flight on F was last year AF LFW-CDG, I had a ticket on C and was upgraded because I knew AF duty manager for West Africa. Of the 4 seats on F cabin, only one was paid (Prime Minister of Code Ivoire was on the flight), the other 3 seats were upgrade. Of course, this is anecdotal, but it well represents the situation of F in many markets.

Quoting Loalq (Reply 23):
Also as far as I know there are few (if any) companies that allows their employees to take F class these days. I for instance work in a 35K+ employees company where the CEO flies a Legacy and everybody else flies either C or Y (depending on your position).

You are right. F is an extremelly small market. It is very difficult to sell F. I know from AF GRU that they also give a lot of upgrades on their F seats in GRU. Selling F tickets is very difficult nowadays, even for big coporation.

In my view, the only markets in Europe that can sustain F seats are CDG, LHR and FRA. KLM was wise to remove the F cabin from its fleet. AMS neither MAD or MXP can sustain F seats.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 25):
Air France has been trying to restrict these non revenue passengers in L'Espace Premiere (F) by dramatically diminishing its F offerings to just the B772/B77W aircraft and even there the number of F seats have been seriously reduced. The retrofitted B772ER is feature an F-cabin with only 4 seats in order to largely restrict the passengers there to be revenue passengers.

You are right. I have my serious doubts about the deployment of F to GIG, nowadays there are only a few markets in the world that can sustain F (paid). F has always been a great class to burn miles or to get upgrades. However, AF still markets F in some markets of West Africa, I believe. And given the huge income inequality of Brazil/Rio plus the excellent performance of C in GIG, perhaps there is a chance AF could at least try to market F in GIG. I will be the first advocate for it...it means more chance for upgrade!!

Rgs,

[Edited 2007-02-02 12:56:41]
 
incitatus
Posts: 3356
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Sat Feb 03, 2007 12:02 am

Quoting Loalq (Reply 23):
Also as far as I know there are few (if any) companies that allows their employees to take F class these days.

Some companies allow senior staff to travel F if it is on long, overnight, back-to-back trips. For example, leave Sao Paulo Monday night, spend Tuesday working at the Manhattan office, and fly back to Sao Paulo Tuesday night.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 27):
100% correct. F in most routes are a money-drainer. It is usually filled with non-revs pax, either miles or upgrade or staff. I mysefl have only flown F because of upgrade and can tell you that most people in F cabin are non-revs.

But on some routes the F cabin fills up. Notorious producers of F demand are New York, London, Tokyo. That is why BA, AA and UA still have first class cabins but airlines such as DL and KL don't. As for Air France, possibly they are just stubborn in keeping a tiny F cabin.  Wink

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 13):
It is high time for LH to reestablish FRA-GIG nonstop. Apparently LH management is very stubborn. It is also very well known that LH could not get it right in South America while AF is giving a lesson to LH in this region.

I find the public justification to cut a route risible sometimes: "We reduced service because lack of aircraft...". That is nonsense. Even a very profitable airline has unprofitable routes. Profitable routes never get axed. Lufthansa was losing money in Rio and Buenos Aires and when it had two flights to Sao Paulo. Apparently Air France is either making money, or it believes it will make money at some point.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
englandair
Posts: 2193
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2000 4:34 am

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Sat Feb 03, 2007 12:39 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 24):
really expect that AF wait till december/january in order to decide if they will run 14x year round or not. If GIG do not receive any further service (i.e. LH or VS), i believe wil be easy to see AF running more than 7 weekly flights year round.

Not VS, but there have been RUMOURS for a while at BA that both EZE and GIG will become non stops from LHR (instead of the current via GRU) in the not too distant future. At the momment we are apparently short of suitable aircraft. Maybe the 10 B777s that are rumoured to be on their way next year (not officially confirmed but much talked about) will be used. Or maybe could be achieved by utilising the current fleet better (a/c are on the ground for a long time in several destinations- JNB sched has been/will be changed soon to drastically cut down on 'on the ground' time). Just a thought.
 
AF086
Posts: 581
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:45 am

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Sat Feb 03, 2007 12:53 am

Quoting Englandair (Reply 29):
Not VS, but there have been RUMOURS for a while at BA that both EZE and GIG will become non stops from LHR (instead of the current via GRU) in the not too distant future.

Very interesting rumours. Have you got further information? Would the EZE flight get a tag on to SCL? (to connect with LA's hub so guess a LA/BA codeshare would be feasable)

It would be a smart move by BA since GIG and EZE are in dire need for nonstops to Europe and would cause some serious trouble to LH unless the germans move quickly enough to defend themselves in the region but apparently South America isn't by far in LH's focus.
Please insert a "smart" joke here.
 
loalq
Posts: 209
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:24 pm

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Sat Feb 03, 2007 1:40 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
Loads were as follows:

AF GRU-CDG daily B77W and 6 x week A330: 90.1%
AF GIG-CDG daily B747: 91.5%
KL GRU-AMS daily B777: 89.7%

Hardiwv, do you happen to have the loads per class?

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 27):
One anecdote: my last flight on F was last year AF LFW-CDG, I had a ticket on C and was upgraded because I knew AF duty manager for West Africa. Of the 4 seats on F cabin, only one was paid (Prime Minister of Code Ivoire was on the flight), the other 3 seats were upgrade. Of course, this is anecdotal, but it well represents the situation of F in many markets.

I wonder if the Prime Minister of the Cote d'Ivoire actually felt bad because he was the only "fool" paying for a F ticket... Big grin  Big grin
"...this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem. All four engines have stopped."
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:34 am

Quoting Loalq (Reply 31):
I wonder if the Prime Minister of the Cote d'Ivoire actually felt bad because he was the only "fool" paying for a F ticket...

Well, in Brazil only the President, Vice-President, Ministers, CEO of Petrobras, Eletrobras, Itaipu Bi-National and Banco do Brasil are authorized by law to fly F (But our President has it own "toy").
Researching some brazilian owned corporates: Itau, Bradesco, Safra, Vale do Rio Doce, Albras, Alunorte, Telemar & Souza Cruz are authorized to fly F (CEO, CFO and Vice-Presidents as well as some Directors). On multi-nationals in general, authorization are granted only to C. There is a market for F but at the current fares, sometimes it's easy to see upgrades.

I get two upgrades on AA and JJ last December from C to F, and only less than 50% of the seats were really sold to F (AA has 16 F seats on their 777's!)

Quoting Englandair (Reply 29):
Not VS, but there have been RUMOURS for a while at BA that both EZE and GIG will become non stops from LHR (instead of the current via GRU) in the not too distant future

It should be nice as they could at the same time improve seat availability to GIG, EZE and GRU with also a dedicated flight.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4100
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:30 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
KL GRU-AMS daily B777: 89.7%

Does antbody know why KLM is changing its flight numbers for the AMS GRU route from the current KL797/798 to KL791/792 for the summer schedule?
 
lamedianaranja
Posts: 1195
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:21 am

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:22 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 33):
Does anybody know why KLM is changing its flight numbers for the AMS GRU route from the current KL797/798 to KL791/792 for the summer schedule?

Freeing up a higher number for the direct GIG flight Big grin Big grin Seriously, I think they're streamlining numbers. The first or most important flight to a certain country should be KL..1 any added flight gets a higher number.
I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:46 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 33):
Does antbody know why KLM is changing its flight numbers for the AMS GRU route from the current KL797/798 to KL791/792 for the summer schedule?

I made the same question a couple weeks ago HB-IWC. Could be a request from ANAC ou European Authorities, but at least ANAC confirm it doesn't request anything.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4100
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:51 am

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 34):
Seriously, I think they're streamlining numbers. The first or most important flight to a certain country should be KL..1 any added flight gets a higher number.

I hear you, but there are plenty of examples flying in the face of that rule: the new nonstop LIM service has KL743/744, MEX gets KL685/686, LOS KL587/588, ACC KL589/590, CAI KL553/554, SIN KL837/838. The list goes on. CTU has KL891/892 whereas the primary PVG and PEK services get KL893/894/895/896/897/898. There surely must be some more cogent reason behind the new GRU flight numbers, although a possible GIG service is as good as precluded by Air France's 14 weekly services next winter.
 
AF086
Posts: 581
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:45 am

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:37 am

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 34):
Freeing up a higher number for the direct GIG flight Seriously, I think they're streamlining numbers. The first or most important flight to a certain country should be KL..1 any added flight gets a higher number.

If my memory serves me right KL797/8 was the flight # of KL's GIG-AMS flight. But with AF's new services this winter (northern hemisphere) I doubt KLM is going to come back to Rio anytime soon.
Please insert a "smart" joke here.
 
hardiwv
Topic Author
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: AF/KL Results In Brazil: December/06

Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:43 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 28):
on some routes the F cabin fills up. Notorious producers of F demand are New York, London, Tokyo

Correct. Markets such as JFK, NRT, LHR still have market for F. But not many destinations in the world can now market a "real" F product.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 32):
Well, in Brazil only the President, Vice-President, Ministers, CEO of Petrobras, Eletrobras, Itaipu Bi-National and Banco do Brasil are authorized by law to fly F (But our President has it own "toy").
Researching some brazilian owned corporates: Itau, Bradesco, Safra, Vale do Rio Doce, Albras, Alunorte, Telemar & Souza Cruz are authorized to fly F (CEO, CFO and Vice-Presidents as well as some Directors). On multi-nationals in general, authorization are granted only to C

In other words, a very thin market than you can list.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 33):
Does antbody know why KLM is changing its flight numbers for the AMS GRU route from the current KL797/798 to KL791/792 for the summer schedule?

Anyone with answer to the question?

Rgs,

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos