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TK787
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Istanbul, 3rd Airport? LHR, IST.. Pics. Compared

Tue Jan 30, 2007 4:22 am

There has been talks in Istanbul about a third airport for the city. As of now, IST gets around 20mil pax, and SAW has a capacity of 3.5mil.
IST has some problems with the proximity of runways, has problems with taxiways, with high-rises in the way of a runway, and an air-force unit next to it. But all this can be solved I think. Also there are some idle aircraft occupying precious parking spots. If all to be removed, air-force removed, cargo operations moved to SAW, lots more room gained.
Between IST and SAW there is no need for a third airport. These two just have to be improved. Again, a third airport means lots of rezoning, and money to be made by some.
Also there is a third airport, Corlu, TEQ, 60miles from the city center, not too convenient. And might need a lot more work in terms of infrastructure.
So, below is the picture, taken of these three Istanbul airports, compared to LHR. All taken from 13000 feet on Google earth. IST has about 10% less space, but SAW has room to grow to be about similar size. TEQ has abundant space, but far from the city.

LHR gets 3.5 times the pax compared to IST. So if they have almost similar acreage, what does it take to make IST handle more pax?
Thanks.

IST, LHR
SAW, TEQ

 
stylo777
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RE: Istanbul, 3rd Airport? LHR, IST.. Pics. Compared

Tue Jan 30, 2007 4:33 am

as you mentioned above it is more inteligent and efficient to remove these old aircrafts, move the army to somewehere else and the cargo to TEQ! Than you have a lot of space. After reworking the domestic terminal there is also space for the intl. terminal to expand to the east.
in my eyes the best thing they could do...
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Istanbul, 3rd Airport? LHR, IST.. Pics. Compared

Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:22 am

Good post. Let me add a few more comments.

IST indeed does have issues with too closely located parallel runways (18/36LR) and a uncontrolled construction of buildings nearby which add obstacle clearance issues. I'm not too sure these can be easily overcome considering the parallel runway is newly built, and there are something like over 100 properties that encroach on the airport placing clearance issues.
I'm not sure any politician has the will to open this can of worms.

However an even more restrictive issue with IST, is not just the airport, however the general Turkish ATC capacity and spacing restrictions. For instance the airports runway capacity in theory is greater then what slots have been actually issued. ATC procedures often require greater than standard spacing which by default limits the airports hourly capacity.
This has been a contention of THY for a little while now with its IST hub facing near gridlock under some circumstance and prompting the carrier to look at other avenues of growth.

As far as SAW, this airport certainly does have great potential.

A tender is being issued for a new international terminal with the current facility becoming a wholly domestic facility.
The airport is also quite keen in accepting additional cargo flights, except seemingly the entire Turkish freight forwarder community is located on the European side of Istanbul along with much of the cities industry. As such moving cargo ops to SAW faces strong opposition plus practical restrictions such as the difficultly of transporting goods back and forth between the European and Asian sides of the city in a timely and cost effective method.
For cargo ops I would say Corlu in the long run might be an option, being situated atleast on the correct side of the city.

It will be interesting to see what the politicians come up with in coming years. Both Turkey as a country and its aviation scene are growing at a fast rate which will lead to the need for even more infrastructure beyond what has already been built in recent years.

[Edited 2007-01-29 21:32:16]
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
ThereandBack
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RE: Istanbul, 3rd Airport? LHR, IST.. Pics. Compared

Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:58 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 2):
A tender is being issued for a new international terminal with the current facility becoming a wholly domestic facility.

I've seen renders of the new terminal design all three look ugly.
If you haven't seen them I could post them here if you would like.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 2):
uncontrolled construction of buildings nearby which add obstacle clearance issues.

Why can't the city demolish them and relocate the residents to a different part of Istanbul?

I hope they make the right decision. It would be nice to see a massive airport in the IST area that would become an architectural gem and a global hub.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Istanbul, 3rd Airport? LHR, IST.. Pics. Compared

Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:36 am

Quoting ThereAndBack (Reply 3):
Why can't the city demolish them and relocate the residents to a different part of Istanbul?

I suppose anything can be done, however even the Nimby crowd in Turkey is getting more and more loud.

As such I am not sure what political will and coordination between the Istanbul city municipality and state airport authority will ever occur. Seemingly the two parties have yet to be able even agree on re-routing a road slightly to allow for the lengthening of the shorter 06/24 runway, let alone even ponder the razing of hundred of buildings and displacement of thousand of people.

Quoting ThereAndBack (Reply 3):
I've seen renders of the new terminal design all three look ugly.
If you haven't seen them I could post them here if you would like.

I'm sure fellow a'netter would enjoying seeing them.

Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 1):
move the army to somewehere else

While you and I can make rational assumptions as such, as you probably know the armed forces in Turkey in many ways are a sacred institution.

While adjacent to the military air academy, I cant right fully see much reason for them to still maintain their presence at the airport. Off course I could make the same comment about military facilities located in the heart or most fashionable areas of many Turkish cities as well where the military sits on all types of real estate.  Yeah sure
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
ThereandBack
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RE: Istanbul, 3rd Airport? LHR, IST.. Pics. Compared

Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:57 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 4):
I'm sure fellow a'netter would enjoying seeing them.

Okay here they are:

Design one:

It's okay...

Design two:
http://www.arkitera.com/UserFiles/Image/ig/Yarisma_Projeleri/sabihagokcen/202.jpg
That is so hideous.

Design three:
 
LH526
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RE: Istanbul, 3rd Airport? LHR, IST.. Pics. Compared

Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:09 am

http://www.arkitera.com/UserFiles/Image/ig/Yarisma_Projeleri/sabihagokcen/202.jpg

I like this one. Striking design perfectly suiting IST as the new member in the european design metropolis torch relay.... the first one is outdated .... the third is very pleasant to the Zeitgeist and appears just to be a 'oval glass terminal' copycat a la CDG or DXB.

Mario
LH526
Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
 
Evan767
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RE: Istanbul, 3rd Airport? LHR, IST.. Pics. Compared

Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:59 am

Quoting Lh526 (Reply 6):
I like this one

Ick, it looks just like one giant, gray, dull, dark-on-the-inside jailhouse. Horrible IMO.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
N1120A
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RE: Istanbul, 3rd Airport? LHR, IST.. Pics. Compared

Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:24 am

Quoting TK787 (Thread starter):
So if they have almost similar acreage, what does it take to make IST handle more pax?

There are two main issues. One, the runway's are ill configured for simultaneous use. Second is that the terminal capacity isn't there. Terminal capacity, in fact, is Turkey's big problem as SAW can definately handle more than it does now but doesn't have the terminal space to do so.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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TK787
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RE: Istanbul, 3rd Airport? LHR, IST.. Pics. Compared

Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:21 pm

Quoting ThereAndBack (Reply 5):
Okay here they are:

Design one:

Thanks, but whats up with all the AF fleet?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 8):
There are two main issues. One, the runway's are ill configured for simultaneous use. Second is that the terminal capacity isn't there. Terminal capacity, in fact, is Turkey's big problem as SAW can definately handle more than it does now but doesn't have the terminal space to do so.

Thanks, both of those issues can be solved. The shorter runway can be extended, or the side by side runways can be separated further. Also both IST and SAW can improve their terminal capacity, and connection to the city center. It seems like a lot of work, but I am sure it is so much easier than trying to find and fund a new airport.
 
ThereandBack
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RE: Istanbul, 3rd Airport? LHR, IST.. Pics. Compared

Tue Jan 30, 2007 4:03 pm

Quoting TK787 (Reply 9):
Thanks, but whats up with all the AF fleet?

I have no idea. In the third design one of the pictures have all CO aircrafts at the gate. Strange...

Quoting TK787 (Reply 9):
SAW can improve their terminal capacity,

There is so much land around SAW they could build several massive terminals there and add more runways.
 
wing
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RE: Istanbul, 3rd Airport? LHR, IST.. Pics. Compared

Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:48 pm

As Laxintl stated very perfectly IST has more potential then its showing.Especially when rwys 24 for landing and 18 for departures the traffic stacks and you may find yourself as number 12-13 for as much as 45 mins delays.The position of runways and the technical and personnel cababilities of IST ATC is very limited.Therefore spacing between departure and arrival traffic is wider than it should be(thats fo safety for sure) but also reduces the capacity of the handled traffic.

On the ground,IST is very much same as the ordinary streets of the city itself.The lack of taxiways, brings the traffic headon, on a one way street.You cant push back due to incoming traffic or you cannot go to your stand because of the pushing back traffic.The lack of coordination between tower and ground controllers adds fuel to the fire.
Just yesterday we have compleated our push and engine start and the ground controller cleared another traffic for push back.If she had waited only 15 seconds we would have leave the apron but now we had to wait 5 minutes for the other traffic to compleate the puch and eng.start.This extra 5 mins was avoidable.If you think of how many flights gets delayed every day by this kind of controller mistakes,the amount of wasted time and fuel.Its too much.

My opinion is the area around the airports must be also controlled by DHMI,rather than the local municipalities.You know if you have friends in the local municipality you can obtain the permission to built every kind of buildings around the airports.Once they are built its very hard to tear it down.

The military area in the IST is useless at the moment,as I stated IST runways are not suitable for F16's to land anyway which these shelters are intended to store.In a war scenerio Istanbul's defence will be provided by the airplanes located in Çorlu so ýts useless to still keep this shelters there,that area may provide a very valuable space to IST airport.

There "must be" another taxiway to bypass the international apron area from the rwy24.The current taxiway construction will not help many for the scenerio I described above....
follow me on my facebook page" captain wing's journey log"
 
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TK787
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RE: Istanbul, 3rd Airport? LHR, IST.. Pics. Compared

Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:12 pm

Quoting TK787 (Thread starter):
they have almost similar acreage, what does it take to make IST handle more pax?

Thanks for all you input.
So it is not the lack of space, but the will and know-how of people running the system.
About traffic controllers at IST: How are they trained? Are there schools in Turkey they have to graduate from, or is it on the job training and seminars abroad? How could their performance improved?
I am sorry if this sounds arrogant but if you don't know anything, just imitate someone that knows what they are doing. So all they have to do is go learn from the best airports how traffic is handled. It is not rocket science.
 
wing
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RE: Istanbul, 3rd Airport? LHR, IST.. Pics. Compared

Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:55 am

Quoting TK787 (Reply 12):
About traffic controllers at IST

You know we have an old saying in Turkish "Yiðidi öldür,hakkýný yeme",I complain about some stupid moves of the ground controllers but on the other hand I havent been in a situation that is "unsafe" by the mistake of ATC's.

They are properly trained by the civil aviation university ATC branch,there is no doubt about that.

We have to keep in mind that these guys work under very difficult conditions and underpaid/overworked workers of Turkish civil aviation.I strongly believe if we bring the best JFK or Chicago controllers to IST atc,they cant bear that conditions for more than a month.

They need better equipment.They have radars but they are to be renovated in every 15 years and these systems are in use nearly for 20 years.Think about the advance in the last 20 years in the computer and aviation technology.If they have the newer equipment the seperation distances can decrease airport can handle more traffic.

About the 3rd airport It starts smelling bad here.Istanbul doesn't need a 3rd airport atleast in the short term imo.SAW has great growth potential with the surrounding areas.They can built a larger terminal and parking aprons are suitable at the moment.
But as I suggested, DHMI should programme the development around the airports.They should arrange the new runway and the terminals for 10 years later from today and buy the lands accordingly.Otherwise many people will find the airport surroundings attractive and 10 years later start complaining about aircraft noise.Just as it is now with IST and surroundings.

I would like to see which contractor will built the 3rd airport in IST,and their relation to the current government?
follow me on my facebook page" captain wing's journey log"
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Istanbul, 3rd Airport? LHR, IST.. Pics. Compared

Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:19 am

Quoting Wing (Reply 13):
SAW has great growth potential with the surrounding areas.They can built a larger terminal and parking aprons are suitable at the moment.

 checkmark  Agreed. From physical space wise the airport has lots of room for growth at the moment.
Also one different thing about SAW is that its not directly managed by the state airport operator DHMI, but instead owned by a cooperative belonging to the Turkish Armed Forces, and managed much more along commercial business practices unlike the typical state airport.

The Achilles heel however for SAW, is that it sits somewhat far out, and in particular on the Asian side of Istanbul which is primarily residential. Istanbul's commerce and majority of its population are in the European side which makes SAW somewhat impractical for many consumers to get to considering the traffic nightmare the Istanbul metro area is. Same issue goes for cargo operators whom are also reluctant to make use of SAW over seemingly more convenient IST.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
LH526
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RE: Istanbul, 3rd Airport? LHR, IST.. Pics. Compared

Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:26 am

to the

Quoting TK787 (Reply 9):
Thanks, but whats up with all the AF fleet?

The CAD tool that is being used is know for having only one type of plane in it's database. So when you insert a "plane" to the gate, you will get that AF style Airbusboeing plane derivate.

Mario
LH526
Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...

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