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dmanmtl
Topic Author
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 7:53 am

UA: JFK->LHR

Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:33 am

I need to be in NYC and then make a run to London next month - I was hoping to go direct from JFK to LHR on UA (I am an avid collector of Aeroplan points) - but it does not look like UA flies this route.

I find this surprising as it must be a pretty popular route - I know BA does something like 5 747s a day on this route.

Checking the UA website they seem to route through IAD which would be a bit of a drag...

any insights? Am I missing something?

D
 
gigneil
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RE: UA: JFK->LHR

Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:34 am

United stopped serving the route...

NS
 
Danairbus
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RE: UA: JFK->LHR

Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:35 am

They sold there slot to DL. DL now flies JFK-LGW.
 
N1120A
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RE: UA: JFK->LHR

Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:37 am

Quoting Danairbus (Reply 2):
They sold there slot to DL.

They did not sell the slot, which is airport-specific, to DL as DL is not allowed to serve Heathrow. They sold the New York-London route authority to DL.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
PanAm747
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RE: UA: JFK->LHR

Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:47 am

United purchased LHR landing rights from Pan Am many years ago, and one of the routes they took over was JFK-LHR.

However, since AA purchased their LHR rights from TWA, the AA/BA OneWorld alliance has come to dominate NYC-UK traffic.

UA's presence at JFK is minimal - IAD is just down the road and is the major center of UA's east coast routes. Their JFK-LHR route existed solely from O&D traffic; however, the New York metro area is extremely weak in Star Alliance traffic compared to OneWorld, so the route was sold to DL (who must operate to LGW and not LHR).

The Bermuda II treaty permits only two American carriers and two British carriers to fly USA-Heathrow. At the current time, those rights belong to Virgin Atlantic, British Airways, United, and American. Ironically, other third country airlines have full traffic rights between the United States and Heathrow - Air India is an example. You can book a trip to USA-Heathrow with them.

Further, service to London Gatwick requires petitioning the British government for approval. All other airports in the UK, however, are not subject to such scrutiny. Continental has not had problems beginning service to smaller airports (and I think those airports are quite delighted!). But London remains under archane but legally signed and binding rules.
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CroCop
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RE: UA: JFK->LHR

Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:51 am

Thanks PanAm747, that was explained wonderfuly.
Mirko "CroCop" Filipovic
 
sebring
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RE: UA: JFK->LHR

Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:58 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 3):

They did not sell the slot, which is airport-specific, to DL as DL is not allowed to serve Heathrow. They sold the New York-London route authority to DL.

UA is leasing the slot to Air Canada. Or it had leased the slot from Air Canada. I have heard both versions. In any case, the slot is being used by Air Canada.
 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: UA: JFK->LHR

Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:16 am

If you want to stick with United then I would suggest going via IAD but if you can fly another Star Alliance carrier I would suggest Austrian, SAS, Singapore, or Lufthansa via FRA, CPH, or VIE.

There is also always the 6 daily American flights, 8 (?) daily British Airways flights, or the 4 daily Virgin Atlantic flights.

Can't forget EOS, MaxJet, Delta, SilverJet, and Continental either.
No Vueling No Party
 
vv701
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Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: UA: JFK->LHR

Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:27 am

Quoting CroCop (Reply 5):
Thanks PanAm747, that was explained wonderfuly.

Agreed. But strictly speaking it is not true to say

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4):
London remains under archane but legally signed and binding rules.

This applies to London Heathrow and London Gatwick but not London Stansted or London Luton. For US airlines the latter two airports and all other UK airports except LHR and LGW are effectively Open Skies.

The reverse is also true. Any US airport is effectively Open Skies for any UK airline from any British airport except LHR and LGW. For these two airports there are different, relatively short lists of US cities (not airports except for JFK and EWR instead of NYC) that may be served from LHR (by BA or VS) and LGW (by any British airline). There are similar but not identical lists of US gateways from which US airlines can serve LHR (only AA and UA) and LGW. So, for example, MSY is on one of the US airlines' lists but neither of the UK airlines' lists. However if traffic on such a singleton route reaches a predetermined level then that gateway could be served by airlines of both nations.

Returning to the original UA question, they have not only quit the LHR-JFK route. They originally purchased from PA a number of LHR-Europen city routes operated on a fifth freedom basis. They kept a small fleet of 727s to operate these services:

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Photo © Steven Freeman


but abandoned these routes many years ago.
 
commavia
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RE: UA: JFK->LHR

Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:29 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4):
However, since AA purchased their LHR rights from TWA, the AA/BA OneWorld alliance has come to dominate NYC-UK traffic.

AA and BA dominated the JFK-LHR market since long before oneworld. AA has had 6x daily flights on the route since the early-mid 1990s.
 
ContinentalEWR
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RE: UA: JFK->LHR

Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:48 am

Not true. AA started JFK-LHR with just two flights, after it bought the TWA slots at LHR. It operated two daily 747-SP's and one 767-200ER to LGW. It also briefly operated (for six months, JFK-MAN, with a 767-200ER) The 747's didn't last long on the route and AA started adding frequencies because it was flying smaller planes, mostly 767-300ER's. BY 1995, AA had added the MD11 and 767-300ER on the routes, then back to 767-200ER, A300-600, and one or two 767-300ER's in the mix due to the shortage of widebodies in the fleet. Today, all LHR flights are 777's.

ContinentalEWR
 
commavia
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RE: UA: JFK->LHR

Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:51 am

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 10):
Not true. AA started JFK-LHR with just two flights, after it bought the TWA slots at LHR. It operated two daily 747-SP's and one 767-200ER to LGW. It also briefly operated (for six months, JFK-MAN, with a 767-200ER) The 747's didn't last long on the route and AA started adding frequencies because it was flying smaller planes, mostly 767-300ER's. BY 1995, AA had added the MD11 and 767-300ER on the routes, then back to 767-200ER, A300-600, and one or two 767-300ER's in the mix due to the shortage of widebodies in the fleet. Today, all LHR flights are 777's.

I know the route has seen a mix of aircraft, and that it did, indeed, start with only 2-3 flights, but it is also true that by the mid 1990s, the route was up to 6x daily service. Initially, this schedule had 2x day flights and 4x redeyes, but that has since been changed to a single daylight flight and 5x redeyes. That change happened sometime around 1999-2000, IIRC.
 
planetime
Posts: 613
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RE: UA: JFK->LHR

Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:07 pm

Quoting Dmanmtl (Thread starter):
I know BA does something like 5 747s a day on this route.

BA has exactly 8 flights a day from JFK to LHR and 1 to MAN. 2 of those are 777's and MAN is a 767. Rest are 744's. Not to mention 3 flights from EWR also.

VS has 5 flights a day JFK-LHR and AA is 6 flights to LHR and somedays 7x a day.
 
UAL777UK
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RE: UA: JFK->LHR

Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:39 pm

We are getting away from the subject matter here..Dmanmtl, I would suggest that if your keen to collect those points jump on an UAX flight down to IAD and then hope on a 777 over the pond unless of course you go for the day flight when it will be a 767. Either way, have agreat trip.
 
BALAX
Posts: 180
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RE: UA: JFK->LHR

Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:56 pm

I don't think AA's 747SPs could fit too many pax. AA added more frequencies as more planes became available. Will EWR-LHR come back on AA? who's to say....
 
TeamAmerica
Posts: 1540
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:38 am

RE: UA: JFK->LHR

Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:08 pm

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4):
IAD is just down the road

That's a stretch. According to Mapquest, IAD is 263 road miles (4hrs 40min) from JFKsmile 
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
AlitaliaMD11
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Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 5:19 am

RE: UA: JFK->LHR

Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:10 pm

Quoting Planetime (Reply 12):
VS has 5 flights a day JFK-LHR and AA is 6 flights to LHR and somedays 7x a day.

Virgin only has 4 to JFK and 2 to EWR.

VS 26
VS 4
VS 46
VS 10

EWR is VS 2 and VS 18.
No Vueling No Party
 
iahflyer
Posts: 249
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:34 pm

RE: UA: JFK->LHR

Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:17 pm

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 15):
That's a stretch. According to Mapquest, IAD is 263 road miles (4hrs 40min) from JFK

Just take AMTRAK from PENN Station to DC, Subway to Rosslyn, Rosslyn bus to IAD. Problem solved, same distance just one major intermodal transit. Also the AMTRAK Regional service stops at EWR and CO 2 Daily's to LGW.
Little airports with the big jets are the best!! Floyd
 
TeamAmerica
Posts: 1540
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RE: UA: JFK->LHR

Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:34 pm

Quoting IAHFLYER (Reply 17):
Just take AMTRAK from PENN Station to DC, Subway to Rosslyn, Rosslyn bus to IAD. Problem solved, same distance just one major intermodal transit.

Thanks. Next time my friends in NYC ask the best way to get to London, I'll pass this along... biggrin 
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
richierich
Moderator
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RE: UA: JFK->LHR

Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting IAHFLYER (Reply 17):
Just take AMTRAK from PENN Station to DC, Subway to Rosslyn, Rosslyn bus to IAD. Problem solved, same distance just one major intermodal transit. Also the AMTRAK Regional service stops at EWR and CO 2 Daily's to LGW.

...or just connect through Miami. That's just "down the road" too...!
None shall pass!!!!
 
Feroze
Posts: 698
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RE: UA: JFK->LHR

Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:33 am

Because UA have stopped the LHR-JFK route, I recently flew:

UA923: LHR-IAD d. 0755 a. 1128
UA7310: IAD-JFK d. 1240 a. 1353 (United Express operated by Mesa)

UA847: LGA-IAD d. 1928 a. 2055
UA924: IAD-LHR d. 2147 a. 1000+1

All the flights were seamless and immigration and customs at IAD was quick enough for me to connect with ease.

On the return, the cabin crew announced the gates for connecting flights while on descent into IAD. I had to walk from D1 to C7 which took less than 10 mins. In addition, LGA in general was absolutely deserted and the flight was extremely light.
 
AA767400
Posts: 1897
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:04 am

RE: UA: JFK->LHR

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:04 am

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 10):
It also briefly operated (for six months, JFK-MAN, with a 767-200ER)

It was a 757 too. Remember hearing Flight Attendants complain how horrid it was to work MAN on a full 757. They said they would run out of alcoholic drinks pretty quickly and the line in the back for the restrooms was not pretty.  silly 

Quoting Dmanmtl (Thread starter):
Checking the UA website they seem to route through IAD which would be a bit of a drag...

It would be a drag. Too much transiting to get to another airport. I would go JFK-FRA-LHR on LH. Get the points and you don't have to take a bus to a train to another bus etc.
"The low fares airline."
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: UA: JFK->LHR

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:18 am

Quoting BALAX (Reply 14):
Will EWR-LHR come back on AA?

Anything's possible, but I doubt we'll ever see AA (or UA, for that matter) on EWR-LHR ever again. The market is pretty much dominated by BA to Heathrow plus a strong presence by Virgin to Heathrow and Continental to Gatwick. AA, with only a single daily flight, was a viable competitor in the go-go 90s, but after 9/11, AA was smart to retreat back to JFK where they have enormous market presence and huge critical mass.

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 21):
It was a 757 too.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that AA never flew the 757 on JFK-MAN. If I'm not mistaken, AA had never flown a 757 on Atlantic routes until 2004, when they launched BOS-MAN and then BOS-SNN. I believe AA's brieft stint on the JFK-MAN route was only with the 767, and no other aircraft. I know that back in 2005-2006, there was also rumor/speculation that AA might take over the JFK-MAN route from BA and fly it with a 767-300, allowing BA to close up its tiny crew base/operating unit up at MAN for the route.
 
RogerThat
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RE: UA: JFK->LHR

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:38 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4):
The Bermuda II treaty permits only two American carriers and two British carriers to fly USA-Heathrow

Pan Am's routes ended up with United. TWA's with American.

But let's not forget pre-Bermuda II, the Sun King was a player in LHR...


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Photo © Ray Pettit
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Photo © Steve Brimley

 
Humberside
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RE: UA: JFK->LHR

Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:09 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 22):
I know that back in 2005-2006, there was also rumor/speculation that AA might take over the JFK-MAN route from BA and fly it with a 767-300, allowing BA to close up its tiny crew base/operating unit up at MAN for the route.

As far as cabin crew go, BA use staff from their BACON regional airline for MAN-JFK so they dont need a special base for the flights. Although now BACON is being sold not sure what will happen
Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
 
CHI787ORD
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RE: UA: JFK->LHR

Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:33 am

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 7):
If you want to stick with United then I would suggest going via IAD but if you can fly another Star Alliance carrier I would suggest Austrian, SAS, Singapore, or Lufthansa via FRA, CPH, or VIE.

When AI's entrance into *alliance is official, they will be the only star airline flying JFK-LHR.
 
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B747-437B
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RE: UA: JFK->LHR

Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:36 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4):
Further, service to London Gatwick requires petitioning the British government for approval. All other airports in the UK, however, are not subject to such scrutiny.

Umm... no. Any route to the UK from outside the EU requires "petitioning the British government for approval". There is an entire department at the DfT that deals with these requests and ensures compliance.
 
PanAm747
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RE: UA: JFK->LHR

Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:07 am

Quote:
Umm... no. Any route to the UK from outside the EU requires "petitioning the British government for approval". There is an entire department at the DfT that deals with these requests and ensures compliance.

We're both correct - let me clarify:

LHR and LGW and extremely restricted. STN and LTN, as well as all other British airports, are not limited to certain carriers or numbers; however, the usual procedures for requesting permission to fly a foreign route apply.

The same would be true for USA-any foreign city.

Should a carrier wish to fly to Britain, such as NW DTW-MAN, the process would follow the usual regulatory hurdles, but is not subject to Bermuda II restrictions.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
cba
Posts: 4228
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RE: UA: JFK->LHR

Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:26 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 1):
United stopped serving the route...



Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4):
However, since AA purchased their LHR rights from TWA, the AA/BA OneWorld alliance has come to dominate NYC-UK traffic.

Just keep adding to the infinitely long list of reasons why B2 is a horrible agreement, unless you're BA and to a lesser extent, VS, AA and UA. If DL and CO had LHR rights, they could easily fill planes. I'm not sure how DL's JFK-LGW route is doing, but CO fills 2 daily flights to LGW, so they'd be able to fill at least a daily 772, probably 2, on the EWR-LHR route.

I hope that the US govt. keeps the door shut on Virgin America until the UK decides to quit pandering to BA and open up LHR. In both markets, more competition means better prices and service for all. Benefits everyone except for the incumbents who are milking the system of protectionism.
 
NYCAAer
Posts: 793
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:22 pm

RE: UA: JFK->LHR

Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:52 pm

AA DID fly the 757-200 on JFK-MAN for a very short period of time. One summer, I believe. It must have been some time in the mid to late '90s, a few years after it had been discontinued on the 762. I remember it but I'm senior enough as a flight attendant that I didn't have to fly it!

American went 6x daily on JFK-LHR in 1994, with a mix of MD-11s, 762s and 763s. It was a big deal at the time and was heavily promoted. I remember the cut-out models of 6 AA jets in travel agency windows all over NY City.
 
UAL777UK
Posts: 2370
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16 am

RE: UA: JFK->LHR

Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:55 pm

Quoting Cba (Reply 28):
I hope that the US govt. keeps the door shut on Virgin America until the UK decides to quit pandering to BA and open up LHR. In both markets, more competition means better prices and service for all. Benefits everyone except for the incumbents who are milking the system of protectionism.

 checkmark 
 
ForeverUnited
Posts: 84
Joined: Fri May 26, 2006 7:32 am

RE: UA: JFK->LHR

Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:10 pm

True, as a rapid Mileage Plus devotee I would love to see UA had kept the JFK-LHR route, but UA understandably has much bigger fish to fry than trying to slug it out on one of the world's most hotly contested international O & D markets that has no reasonable connectability (all points downline from JFK on UA have LHR service in their own right; BMI's service from LHR is anemic at best compared with OneWorld's BA, and other Star Carriers serve mostly their hubs from LHR - For anyone not originating *and* terminating in LHR/JFK, it's simply a superfluous connection on the network).

A flight somewhat in the wrong direction never let me personally stray from UA/*A; that's a lot of EQM's to give up for a pond hop  Wink

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