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todaReisinger
Posts: 902
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2001 4:19 am

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:33 am

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 35):
how is LY doing of its three weekly flights to GVA?



Quoting LXA340 (Reply 36):
GVA is doing really well in the winter months when also many tourists are flown in for skiing in resorts in France and Switzerland. Hence they even use 772's and 744's occasionally. How the route performs during the rest of the year I don't know.

LY has only 2 flights a week to GVA; it used to have 3 for several decades (Sun-Tue-Thu) but the Tuesday flight has been suppressed recently. I wondered how there could be 3 flights a week to GVA, but the planes were usually quite full

I haven't seen any 777 or 744 this winter, but only 757s and 767s. In the past, there were sometimes even 3 flights on Sundays with 767s, 747s, 744s and, more recently, 777s. But not this year, and the schedule doesn't indicate any widebody flights.


*


No comments about the "new" logo? It's been introduced for over a year now but not yet on a single airplane, even not on those which joined the fleet in 2006; that's great, but I wonder why... Smile!
I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
 
ordryan28
Posts: 963
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:24 am

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:43 am

After thinking about this lately, I came to the conclusion that traffic from ORD-TLV most likely has struggled due to Israel's current political (war) status. Just a thought, but it makes sense to me. Maybe when things calm down, we will see LY return one day...  crossfingers 

-Ryan
Whoever said winning is not everything never fought cancer.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26061
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:48 am

Quoting ORDRyan28 (Reply 51):
After thinking about this lately, I came to the conclusion that traffic from ORD-TLV most likely has struggled due to Israel's current political (war) status. Just a thought, but it makes sense to me. Maybe when things calm down, we will see LY return one day... crossfingers

It would seem logical, but it isn't true. Traffic to Israel remains strong, and it doesn't explain why they are increasing flights to Los Angeles, Miami, New York City. El Al's not coming back.
a.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6096
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:02 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 52):
It would seem logical, but it isn't true. Traffic to Israel remains strong, and it doesn't explain why they are increasing flights to Los Angeles, Miami, New York City. El Al's not coming back.

Its sad, but I agree with MAH4546. If they were cutting service to the other cities, maybe that would be the case. I guess ORD wasnt as profitable for them. However, its not like ORD is suffering. SA and OS are coming!!!
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
ordryan28
Posts: 963
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:24 am

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:45 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 52):
It would seem logical, but it isn't true. Traffic to Israel remains strong, and it doesn't explain why they are increasing flights to Los Angeles, Miami, New York City. El Al's not coming back.

I thought about that. Maybe Chicagoans are taking extra precaution...

but I hear your point- my point doesn't make sense since LY is expanding in their other North American locations..

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 53):
However, its not like ORD is suffering. SA and OS are coming!!!

 checkmark 
Don't forget about VS and don't forget that we just got B6!  Big grin
Whoever said winning is not everything never fought cancer.
 
amirs
Topic Author
Posts: 1237
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 7:20 am

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:39 pm

Chicago is always the first US destination to be axed when the company is having financial problems.

It happened in 2001 ... El-Al To Shut Down Tel Aviv-Chicago Route (by Toda,Reisinger Nov 1 2001 in Civil Aviation)

I believe ORD will return in the future, when the airline has more money and a/c to reoffer a nonstop ORD - TLV flight.
 
ordryan28
Posts: 963
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:24 am

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:11 am

Quoting Amirs (Reply 55):
I believe ORD will return in the future, when the airline has more money and a/c to reoffer a nonstop ORD - TLV flight.

I concur.

In the meantime, may we say a graceful farewell to LY...


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[Edited 2007-02-04 19:30:25]
Whoever said winning is not everything never fought cancer.
 
jad0761
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:34 am

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:12 am

These Jewish population statistics are definitely off, I live in Metropolitan Detroit and we have a huge Jewish community, LY should consider serving DTW as their is a demand, you should see the number of TLV connecting passengers that have to go through other airports, now I think LY or NW should offer direct service to TLV (not daily, but maybe 3x a week)
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6096
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:23 am

Quoting Jad0761 (Reply 57):
These Jewish population statistics are definitely off, I live in Metropolitan Detroit and we have a huge Jewish community, LY should consider serving DTW as their is a demand, you should see the number of TLV connecting passengers that have to go through other airports, now I think LY or NW should offer direct service to TLV (not daily, but maybe 3x a week)

I think if an airline were to serve DTW-TLV, it would be NW. I dont think LY would simply because they just gave up ORD. If they cant make ORD work, im not sure they would do DTW. I also have doubts on whether NW would do TLV, they tend to favor going through AMS for the most part.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26061
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:33 am

Quoting Jad0761 (Reply 57):
These Jewish population statistics are definitely off, I live in Metropolitan Detroit and we have a huge Jewish community, LY should consider serving DTW as their is a demand, you should see the number of TLV connecting passengers that have to go through other airports, now I think LY or NW should offer direct service to TLV (not daily, but maybe 3x a week)

The figures are not off. Detroit does not have a huge Jewish community and there is not enough demand for Detroit-Tel Aviv to make it work.
a.
 
ordryan28
Posts: 963
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:24 am

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:37 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 59):
The figures are not off. Detroit does not have a huge Jewish community and there is not enough demand for Detroit-Tel Aviv to make it work.

 checkmark 

Certainly a DTW-TLV market could not break even, let alone prosper

Quoting Jad0761 (Reply 57):
These Jewish population statistics are definitely off, I live in Metropolitan Detroit and we have a huge Jewish community

Really? Last time I checked you didn't...

 no 
Whoever said winning is not everything never fought cancer.
 
IAD380
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:34 am

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Mon Feb 05, 2007 6:41 am

Quoting Jad0761 (Reply 57):
I live in Metropolitan Detroit and we have a huge Jewish community, LY should consider serving DTW as their is a demand, you should see the number of TLV connecting passengers that have to go through other airports, now I think LY or NW should offer direct service to TLV (not daily, but maybe 3x a week)

Detroit does NOT have a large Jewish population. However, its Jewish community is close-knit, and for the most part, maintains strong ties to Israel. However, this probably is not enough to support regular flights to TLV. LY would resume flights to ORD, or start flights to BOS, IAD, or SFO long before it opens a route to DTW. Besides DTW passengers could easily connect in YYZ or New York. NW is more likely to launch this route, but I doubt that it will happen anytime soon. If NW were to fly from DTW to TLV, it would be through its hub in AMS, and probably with a single-aisle aircraft. The Arab communities in the Detroit area are much larger than the Jewish community. Perhaps, if peace came to the Middle East, NW would then consider this route.

Quoting Amirs (Reply 55):
I believe ORD will return in the future, when the airline has more money and a/c to reoffer a nonstop ORD - TLV flight.

Definitely.  Smile However, I have no idea when that will happen.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26061
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:47 am

Another thing that people are forgetting is that a large "Jewish community" does not nessecarily fuel traffic to Israel, and what it does fuel is frequently lower yielding tourist traffic. A large Israeli community and strong ties to the Israeli business community make a flight profitable. Miami, New York City, Chicago, and Los Angeles all have large Israeli communities in addition to large Jewish communities. While VFR doesn't support a route, Israeli-Americans tend to be in the upper middle class/upper class, and fly to/form Israel frequently.
a.
 
IAD380
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:34 am

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:43 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 62):
Another thing that people are forgetting is that a large "Jewish community" does not nessecarily fuel traffic to Israel,

So true! Often , the most profitable routes to TLV are from cities that do not have significant Jewish populations at all. Examples are FRA (LH), ATL (DL), MAD and BCN (IB), and HKG (LY). These routes rely more heavily on business travellers or connecting traffic. If new routes to TLV are established in the near futures, they are likely to originate in cities that meet this description. KE is considering whether to resume flights from ICN while CO may start flying from TLV to its IAH hub. Conversely, flights from cities that are more dependent on low-yielding VFR traffic, such as YUL and BOS, have been suspended. Similarly, there are no direct flights between TLV and EZE, which has a large Jewish population. Although AR and LY have contemplated flying this route for more than 30 years, they have yet to do so because the profit margins on these flights probably are too thin.
 
ordryan28
Posts: 963
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:24 am

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:34 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 62):
Another thing that people are forgetting is that a large "Jewish community" does not nessecarily fuel traffic to Israel, and what it does fuel is frequently lower yielding tourist traffic.

Exactly. You just hit it right on the head. That's what people continuously fail to realize..
Whoever said winning is not everything never fought cancer.
 
toltommy
Posts: 2762
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:04 am

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:55 pm

Quoting LY777 (Reply 1):
That's disappointing, I don't understand why they shut down a route where the loads are OK.

If they had to sacrifice yield to get the loads to an acceptable level, then it makes sense to withdraw. Full aircraft are not always profitable.
A300/A310/A319/A320/A321/A332/A333 / 707/712/727/732/733/734/735/738/739/752/753
/762/763/764/772/788/789/DC8/DC9-10/30/40/50/MD81/83/87/88/90/L1011-/250/500/CRJ200/440 /700/900/EMB135/140/145/170/175/190/328Jet/F70/SF3/BE1/J31
 
hamster
Posts: 135
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:08 am

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:07 pm

Id like to fly LY just to experience their security. I hear it is the best.
 
ordryan28
Posts: 963
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:24 am

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:23 pm

Quoting Hamster (Reply 66):
I hear it is the best.

No doubt about that. It is the best.
Whoever said winning is not everything never fought cancer.
 
777way
Posts: 6457
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:38 am

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:45 pm

Looks like LY's silver ribbons will also be painted Gold along with the logo change.
 
jad0761
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:34 am

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:07 am

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 63):

Actually, the routes to the far east are mostly packed with Israelis going to and from there as tourists, not many business people take the flights. Israelis after the required army service , a lot of them feel the need to find themselves and their religion and go to places like India and Thailand to be immersed in different cultures and find themselves through the more relaxed environemnt
 
7474ever
Posts: 367
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:16 am

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:47 am

Quoting Jad0761 (Reply 69):
Actually, the routes to the far east are mostly packed with Israelis going to and from there as tourists, not many business people take the flights.

That's correct if you talk about BKK and BOM, however PEK and HKG is a different story. The passengers on these flights are mostly businessmen and/or transiting passengers to other destiantions in the far east.
 
todaReisinger
Posts: 902
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2001 4:19 am

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:08 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 68):
Looks like LY's silver ribbons will also be painted Gold along with the logo change.

Is it your own premonition, or have you read this somewhere....?

Actually, gold was already part of LY's corporate image from 1971 to 1994, but the airline got rid of it in one of its numerous attempts to create a "new" image...

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To change the livery was anyway a bad decision, but the ribbons which were selected are really not a success, and the whole corporate image nowadays looks terribly cheap, without even speaking of the logo which does not only look cheap but also strikingly ugly (have a look on www.elal.co.il to admire the concept)

It is sad (and a shame) for an airline which had the great chance of having a strong corporate identity created by renowned graphic designers.
I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
 
ordryan28
Posts: 963
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:24 am

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:22 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 68):
Looks like LY's silver ribbons will also be painted Gold along with the logo change.

Are you sure...? I'm not sure this is official yet..

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 71):
Actually, gold was already part of LY's corporate image from 1971 to 1994, but the airline got rid of it in one of its numerous attempts to create a "new" image...

 checkmark 

Sure was. The gold looked very classy, in my opinion.

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 71):
the whole corporate image nowadays looks terribly cheap

I disagree. I realize I am one of the select few that likes their "white" livery. In my opinion, it looks stylish, without expressing much. Liveries that can get across a "message" without much paint and whatnot, usually get my vote. Another perfect example: PK  bigthumbsup 

-Ryan
Whoever said winning is not everything never fought cancer.
 
amirs
Topic Author
Posts: 1237
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 7:20 am

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:40 am

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 71):
To change the livery was anyway a bad decision, but the ribbons which were selected are really not a success, and the whole corporate image nowadays looks terribly cheap, without even speaking of the logo which does not only look cheap but also strikingly ugly (have a look on www.elal.co.il to admire the concept)

Why do you keep repeating how ugly the new logo is? Its really not that bad, you are one of the only ppl I have heard complain about it and be so passoinate about it .

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 25):
The livery change occured in 1999, when El Al abandoned its beautiful and impressive turquoise/blue livery for the cheap looking (and ugly in my opinion) ribbon livery. But at least back then, the logo survived...it remained untouched. The "new" logo is a pure HORROR, it is nothing more than a disfigured copy of the current one. I still can't believe that a professionnal graphic designer dared disfigure in such a gross way one of the most beautiful and successful corporate logos ever created.

And why? What does this stupidity mean? To make the letters round will give the company a more modern, more dynamic look? Bla bla bla....it's a pure nonsense, and it is a totally unoriginal process btw....

I really cannot understand.
 
todaReisinger
Posts: 902
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2001 4:19 am

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Fri Feb 09, 2007 11:24 am

Quoting Amirs (Reply 73):
Why do you keep repeating how ugly the new logo is? Its really not that bad, you are one of the only ppl I have heard complain about it and be so passoinate about it .

I keep repeating it because I very much love the current LY logo, which is a real pearl of graphic design, and I feel very sad that it is going to be replaced by a pale copy of it.

Of course, questions of taste can't be objectively discussed....but my opinion is that the new one is ugly, unelegant and looks cheap. Each letter, both in Latin and Hebrew characters, are ugly: look at the E, the L and the A.....it seems difficult to make something uglier. A vast majority of friends to whom I showed both versions are telling me that the old one is much nicer than the revised one. Some have also said, and it is right, that the new version is not as readable as the old one.

And there was absolutely no need to change this logo. The idea is to modernize the image of LY; but do you think that a rebranding always implies making a logotype look rounder? Do you think companies like Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Mercedes, BMW, McDonald's or Kellogg's for instance are going to "modernize" their well known logos in the hope of modernizing their image? Of course not, and all of the logos I mentioned are much older than the LY logo.

Btw, LY is in a severe financial crisis and the costs of such a logo change could have been easily avoided...




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"you are one of the only ppl I have heard complain about it and be so passoinate about it"


Am I only "one of the...."? I would have thought I was THE only one complaining about it and being so passionate about it...
I have developped since childhood a strong passion for LY and especially for its beautiful and impressive corporate identity; that's why I feel really sad about these changes.
I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
 
amirs
Topic Author
Posts: 1237
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 7:20 am

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Fri Feb 09, 2007 11:37 pm

just for your knowledge ... McDonald's and Pepsi have all made changes in their logo in the past decade.

So has Coca cola, with using "COKE"
 
todaReisinger
Posts: 902
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2001 4:19 am

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:45 am

The logo of Pepsi has remained very close to what it was in 1962.

The McDonald's logo has been created in 1962, and it is still in use 45 years later. BTW, LY's famous square logo was designed that same year. I haven't noticed any major change in the McDonald's logo over the last decade(s).

"Coke" does not constitute a logo change, it is simply another name designating the same product; it was particularly used in the second half of the 1980s to promote the return to the "Real Coke" after the new Coca-Cola formula disaster.... The Coca-Cola logo was born with the company in the 1880s and its script hasn't changed since 1930.



I feel that the new version of the LY logo looks ugly and cheap, and doesn't modernize or improve LY's image in any way. The current version is elegant and classy, and has a clear and harmonious graphic line. Could anyone tell me what is better in this new version over the current one?
I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
 
amirs
Topic Author
Posts: 1237
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 7:20 am

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Sat Feb 10, 2007 5:26 am

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 76):
The logo of Pepsi has remained very close to what it was in 1962.

http://www.garybeene.com/pepsi/pep-hist.htm,
and today ...
http://www.pepsi.com/home.php

Well its not less different then the LY new logo

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 76):
The McDonald's logo has been created in 1962, and it is still in use 45 years later. BTW, LY's famous square logo was designed that same year. I haven't noticed any major change in the McDonald's logo over the last decade(s).

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&r...t&cd=1&q=mcdonald%27s+logo&spell=1

Now they dont even have "Mcdonald's" in th logo.
 
todaReisinger
Posts: 902
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2001 4:19 am

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Sat Feb 10, 2007 5:43 am

Quoting Amirs (Reply 77):

Now they dont even have "Mcdonald's" in th logo.

Well, at least here in Switzerland, it is still written "McDonald's" on the front of the restaurants... And, if you look at the images you have provided, you'll have obviously noted that the "gold arches" M has remained the same over the last 4 decades.


Everyone is entitled to prefer the new LY logo over the original one.....I just say that I very much loved the original one and that I don't like at all the newer one.
And it was the same with the livery; I bitterly miss the old colors, although in my opinion the new livery is "less bad" than the new logo. At least, there's a concept, an idea behind the new livery, whereas the new logo is just a disfigured copy of the previous one without introducing any new idea.
I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
 
ordryan28
Posts: 963
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:24 am

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Sat Feb 10, 2007 5:46 am

I agree with Amirs. IMO, the new LY logo looks classy.

-Ryan
Whoever said winning is not everything never fought cancer.
 
IAD380
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:34 am

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Sat Feb 10, 2007 6:11 am

It seems to me that LY already made its decision about logos and livery. At this time, LY has more pressing matters to address, such as modernizing its fleet, improving the quality of service, rationalizing its route structure, and achieving greater cost efficiencies. The fact that LY is suspending to flights to four cities is more significant than the livery or logo. After all, the public does not choose which airline to fly on the basis of livery or logo. LY seems to have difficulty competing on routes that other airlines find very profitable. In my opinion, logos and livery are the least of El Al's problems.
 
todaReisinger
Posts: 902
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2001 4:19 am

RE: EL AL To Close Chicago

Sat Feb 10, 2007 9:12 am

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 80):
At this time, LY has more pressing matters to address, such as modernizing its fleet, improving the quality of service, rationalizing its route structure, and achieving greater cost efficiencies. The fact that LY is suspending to flights to four cities is more significant than the livery or logo. After all, the public does not choose which airline to fly on the basis of livery or logo. LY seems to have difficulty competing on routes that other airlines find very profitable. In my opinion, logos and livery are the least of El Al's problems.

I totally agree with what you say, and btw I keep saying exactly the same...for instance above:

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 74):
Btw, LY is in a severe financial crisis and the costs of such a logo change could have been easily avoided...

or in the thread LY Restructuring, Cost Cutting And Layoffs Ahead:

"(...)And given the very serious financial situation of LY those days, was it really necessary to invest money for an "updated" logo? To pay a so-called graphic designer...and then to repaint the logo on all the planes, and to replace hundreds of signs, including all over the new TLV terminal...? It costs a lot...Proof is that almost 8 years after the introduction of the new livery, not all airplanes have yet been repainted...and that's without even speaking of the ugly ex-NAA 738."

I agree with each of your words, but maybe your last sentence should rather states that "logo and livery should be the last of LY's problems"... because obviously they are among their top priorities.

And one should keep in mind that the amounts implied by such a logo renewal are huge.
I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)

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