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flyboyseven
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Retro Schemes----Why?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:53 pm

What is the purpose of retro schemes on aircraft? It would seem counter-productive with all the cost cutting that airlines try to do. Some do look cool though. Also why are they on 319s so much?
As long as the number of take-offs equals the number of landings...you're doing fine.
 
WestJetYQQ
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:58 pm

Possibly Something to Raise Moral with something different, instead of the same old paint scheme that just gets boring.

As for being on A319s so much......It's a mystery
Will You Try to Change Things? Use the Power that you have, the Power of a Million new Ideas.
 
flyboyseven
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:02 pm

Quoting WestJetYQQ (Reply 1):
Possibly Something to Raise Moral

Raise the morale of who? The pax, oh wait they are on the inside. Hmmm, maybe the groundcrew.
As long as the number of take-offs equals the number of landings...you're doing fine.
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:04 pm

Something different gets the customers talking. It also brings back memories and helps to keep the company name in the forefront.

When an aircraft goes in for paint, the cost difference between a retro design and the regular one is negligible.

Mark
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
jbernie
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:18 pm

why an A319?

1) cost of the job - a smaller plane = less paint
2) speed of the job - a smaller plane = less time for something "different"
3) maybe stretching it, but small plane, shorter trips which means more places see the scheme in less time?
4) some paint schemes can increase costs by way of not reflecting heat as well and such, on a smaller plane those costs are reduced, well kept to a minimum.

Not an expert but that would be what i would expect. Likewise, same deal with a 737 compared to a 747. ie the Wantas 743s
 
flyboyseven
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:24 pm

Quoting Jbernie (Reply 4):

That makes sense. Thank you.

Not sure about #3
As long as the number of take-offs equals the number of landings...you're doing fine.
 
WestJetYQQ
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:27 pm

Quoting Flyboyseven (Reply 5):
Not sure about #3

No, that makes sense. Its a smaller a/c doing shorter hops. The plane will visit more airport in a shorter amount of time. Far more people will see the livery this way.  Smile

Cheers
Will You Try to Change Things? Use the Power that you have, the Power of a Million new Ideas.
 
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cedars747
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:46 pm

Quoting Flyboyseven (Thread starter):
Retro Schemes----Why?

NOSTALGIE

Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion /لدي شغف للطيران / I have a passion for aviation /Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart/ J'ai une passion pour l'aviation.
 
IFlyTWA
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:30 pm

Why not?

It's just a interesting thing to do and it boosts the morale of the old timers working there.
"To express the excitement of travel" - Eero Saarinen
 
PanHAM
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:43 pm

MARKETING

You give one of your jets an old colour scheme and you have the message including a nice picture or two all over the place. At no extra cost except for the paint job. Plus you can use it building a marketing campaign around it. The paint job costs little more, because you take a plane which has just completed a C or D check and needed a paint job anyhow and it will fly the retro scheme until the next major overhaul.

MARKETING !!!!
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
EGBJ
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:18 pm

This got me thinking....how cool would it be to see a BA A319 in the old landor scheme Big grin

....one can dream  cloudnine 
 
Birdwatching
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:04 pm

Quoting EGBJ (Reply 10):
This got me thinking....how cool would it be to see a BA A319 in the old landor scheme

Retro schemes are not at that point yet. Landor is only gone for a couple of years now. Wait one or two decades and you'll see a Landor retro scheme... just not on an A319!

Soren  santahat 
All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
 
FlyingColours
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:11 pm

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 11):
Retro schemes are not at that point yet. Landor is only gone for a couple of years now. Wait one or two decades and you'll see a Landor retro scheme... just not on an A319!

How about BOAC, BEA or even Imperial Airways  Smile

I know when BA retired its last 747-100? the engineers gave it BOAC logos and titles although the livery was not quite the same.

It would be nice to see them around in the UK, BA has an awful lot of history when you go back further than the past few decades.

Phil
FlyingColours
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rootsair
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:15 pm

Quoting WestJetYQQ (Reply 1):
As for being on A319s so much......It's a mystery



Quoting Jbernie (Reply 4):
why an A319?

1) cost of the job - a smaller plane = less paint
2) speed of the job - a smaller plane = less time for something "different"
3) maybe stretching it, but small plane, shorter trips which means more places see the scheme in less time?
4) some paint schemes can increase costs by way of not reflecting heat as well and such, on a smaller plane those costs are reduced, well kept to a minimum.

Add the fact that an A319 on a fleet tends to be for short haul routes. Thus its used on more routes than lets say a 777 for most airlines. This gives the opportunity for more people to see the retro scheme. That's why LH painted its retro shceme on the A321 than on an A340 for example(even if the A340 ressembled more the 707, thing that people said would be more authentic than a 321)
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
FlyingColours
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:18 pm

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 13):
Add the fact that an A319 on a fleet tends to be for short haul routes

Another reason perhaps is that with US for example the retro aircraft stays in the "zone" in which the scheme is intended (ex PSA stays close to California, the old PSA area), since I doubt that people in Florida saw a PSA jet.

Phil
FlyingColours
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srbmod
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:11 pm

Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 14):
Another reason perhaps is that with US for example the retro aircraft stays in the "zone" in which the scheme is intended (ex PSA stays close to California, the old PSA area), since I doubt that people in Florida saw a PSA jet.

A quick photo search shows that not to be the case.
https://www.airliners.net/search/phot...ort_order=photo_id+DESC&nr_pages=2
 
FlyingColours
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:27 pm

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 15):
A quick photo search shows that not to be the case.

Aha, I stand corrected  Smile

Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
RICARIZA
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:36 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 9):
MARKETING

The way I see it, it is to let people know that "We are an old airline, we have history, we are not just a start up company who's going to fail soon, we have been in business a long time, we know how to do this"..

In other words, yes, Marketing.

I personally love them..
I miss ACES, I am proud of AVIANCA & I am loyal to AMERICAN
 
ABQopsHP
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:42 pm

After the merger it was asked why we were using the 319 for the theme planes instead of the 757. This is because the 319 has more flexability in our schedule and can go to all our destinations. The 757 can fly into most airports, but the fleet flexability is not there.
ABQ ops, Cactus 202 requesting you order 5 Green Chile Chicken stew for us to p/u on arrival. ;)
 
cedarjet
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:06 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 3):
It also brings back memories and helps to keep the company name in the forefront.

This is of course true, the airline biz is thought of as being relatively young compared to, say, steel, shipping, insurance, some of whom go back a couple of centuries or more. But the idea of keeping the company name in the forefront can go awry:

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Looks gorgeous though, so no complaints here.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
coleplane
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:04 am

I can think of a few that need to repaint their entire fleet retro as it would be such an improvement! Delta comes to mind.

In the case of mergers or acquisitions, there can sometimes be a great deal of resentment from the employees of the company acquired. And a sense of insecurity about their future. Some retro schemes are to boost morale and create unity.
"About a nine on the tension scale there Rupe."
 
Lexy
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:00 am

Quoting Flyboyseven (Thread starter):
What is the purpose of retro schemes on aircraft? It would seem counter-productive with all the cost cutting that airlines try to do. Some do look cool though. Also why are they on 319s so much?

In order to get to where you are going (as a company), you have to remember and embrace where you came from. These liveries serve many different purposes for many different people.
Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
 
srbmod
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:27 am

Quoting Coleplane (Reply 20):
In the case of mergers or acquisitions, there can sometimes be a great deal of resentment from the employees of the company acquired. And a sense of insecurity about their future. Some retro schemes are to boost morale and create unity.

That's part of the reasoning behind the US Airways Heritage Aircraft. The new management didn't want to forget the fact that when HP started up, many of the airlines that now make up US Airways were independent carriers. Some of them still held onto their pride for their old carrier. For many years, ex-PSA mechanics would paint PSA Smiles on USAir/US Airways a/c:

http://www.psa-history.org/ussmile.htm

Who wouldn't love to see DL repaint some 737s in the Western "swizzle stick" or Northeast "Yellowbird" schemes? Since Delta didn't hold on to the trademarks, we'll probably never see those kind of retrojets.

Some retro schemes fall short of the mark. The last paintjob the Spirit of Delta sported before being repainted into its' retirement/delivery colors didn't exactly suit a widebody. While not a true representation of the 30s/40s era DL livery, it really didn't look right on such a large a/c:


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Personally, I'd love to see DL have some retro schemes could you image these schemes on say the Widget livery on the 777, Convair 880 livery on the 764, and maybe a 737 in the livery prior to the introduction of jets to the fleet?

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cedarjet
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:46 am

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 22):
Some retro schemes fall short of the mark. The last paintjob the Spirit of Delta sported before being repainted into it's retirement/delivery colors didn't exactly suit a widebody. While not a true representation of the 30s/40s era DL livery, it really didn't look right on such a large a/c:

I couldn't agree more. Not so much cos the original livery was duff, but cos Delta Corporate just couldn't help themselves from fucking it and making it all 90s business-y and self-aggrandising, with the "Celebrating 75 Years" and "Spirit Of Delta" all over the shop. Why?! See also this aircraft:

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"Force for global good" - force?! There is something chillingly militaristic about that line, sure takes away the cuddly-feelies from Habitat For Humanity. Whoever comes up with these special liveries for DL should be moved into a different role. Maybe something at the Pentagon.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
flyboyseven
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:18 am

Quoting Coleplane (Reply 20):
I can think of a few that need to repaint their entire fleet retro as it would be such an improvement! Delta comes to mind.

I agree. Their new livery is disgusting. The widget one is so much better.

I think it would be really cool to paint an old plane in a new scheme.
As long as the number of take-offs equals the number of landings...you're doing fine.
 
cedarjet
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:21 am

Quoting Flyboyseven (Reply 24):
I think it would be really cool to paint an old plane in a new scheme.

Now yer talkin! I want to see a 707 in MEA's new eurowhite. That would be my first one.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
flyboyseven
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:35 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 25):
Now yer talkin! I want to see a 707 in MEA's new eurowhite.

Do you have a pic?
As long as the number of take-offs equals the number of landings...you're doing fine.
 
cedarjet
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:38 am

Quoting Flyboyseven (Reply 26):
Do you have a pic?

No! They never existed. One of their seven-fours got the new livery before being sold to Connie Kalitta.

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fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
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solnabo
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:39 am

Not to hijack this thread but;

AZ new livery just effing sucks!!!

They have the same c/s since 1978 and look what they did! They put the green cheatline UNDER the windows...

AF to put an extra blue line on the tailfin?

Hellooooooooooo!! What a major change to the 21st century  Yeah sure

Micke//  Angry
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
flyboyseven
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:43 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 27):
No! They never existed

I know, I meant a pic of their new livery. You figured that out anyways. That would look good on a 707.
As long as the number of take-offs equals the number of landings...you're doing fine.
 
RIXrat
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:12 am

Quoting Coleplane (Reply 20):
In the case of mergers or acquisitions, there can sometimes be a great deal of resentment from the employees of the company acquired.

I think that a retro-fit could cause quite a lot of resentment amongst employees and former employees of the airline, thinking back how they were happy with the former airline and now being screwed by the one that is bringing their bad memories back.
 
USADreamliner
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:28 am

My question would be : Why not?
I think a retro scheme is a good way to celebrate an anniversary, like LH,AV,MX,AC, etc. I don't see a problem.
 
kbfispotter
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:48 am

Quoting Flyboyseven (Reply 24):
Their new livery is disgusting. The widget one is so much better

Am I the only one here who does not have a problem with the new DL livery? I actualy like it! Yes, I liked the widget as well, but I still like this new one they have. Now, I do agree that they should paint one of their 738's in the old colors they had on their 880's...

Kris
Proud to be an A&P!!!
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:02 am

Quoting KBFIspotter (Reply 32):
Am I the only one here who does not have a problem with the new DL livery? I actualy like it! Yes, I liked the widget as well, but I still like this new one they have. Now, I do agree that they should paint one of their 738's in the old colors they had on their 880's...

Kris

i like the new livery but i really miss the widget. I could also see after DL comes out of BK they put the widget back on a few (if not all) planes. I dont like that this livery is the same one that Leo and crew came up with. I do hope that they repaint a few (if not all planes into the widget once again).
 
Viscount724
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:02 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 9):
MARKETING

You give one of your jets an old colour scheme and you have the message including a nice picture or two all over the place.

Absolutely. Issue a few press releases with photos and dozens of newspapers and other media outlets with space to fill give you a lot of free advertising. Even a minor change like the LH radomes painted to resemble a soccer ball to promote the World Cup in Germany last summer generated a lot of free coverage all over the world.


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coleplane
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:03 pm

Quoting KBFIspotter (Reply 32):
Am I the only one here who does not have a problem with the new DL livery?

Yeah, but we still like you.

Quoting KBFIspotter (Reply 32):
i like the new livery but i really miss the widget.

You sum up my humble opinion KBFIspotter. Sometimes I really question airline management and/or marketing people. It's not that DL's new scheme is so bad (although it is to me), it's just that the widget livery was so perfect. Can you imagine KLM changing their beautiful blue? How 'bout UPS' brown? Each are symbols of the carriers tradition, pride, and history and sometimes better left alone. The fact that at one time you could fly on three different liveried DL planes is evidence enough for me.
"About a nine on the tension scale there Rupe."
 
B707Stu
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:47 pm

It's for the over 50's like me to have a nostalgic moment and connect with our youths!
 
kbfispotter
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:10 pm

Quoting Coleplane (Reply 35):
Quoting KBFIspotter (Reply 32):
i like the new livery but i really miss the widget.

You sum up my humble opinion KBFIspotter.

First of all, I am not the one who said that...

I have nothing against the widget, I just think that the new livery looks great on DL's fleet... Maybe if they bring back the old widget design on titles, then keep the new tail livery... that would be interesting...

Kris
Proud to be an A&P!!!
 
flyboyseven
Topic Author
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:40 pm

Quoting KBFIspotter (Reply 37):
Maybe if they bring back the old widget design on titles, then keep the new tail livery

Personaly it is the tail that I dislike the most, not the rest of the aircraft. The only plane I like it on is the 732. That and the new livery on the 727. I think that looks good because they are old classic aircraft, with a new scheme. The oppsite of a retro scheme.


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[Edited 2007-02-05 06:10:29]
As long as the number of take-offs equals the number of landings...you're doing fine.
 
WestJetYQQ
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:54 pm

Quoting KBFIspotter (Reply 37):
Maybe if they bring back the old widget design on titles, then keep the new tail livery



Quoting Flyboyseven (Reply 38):
Personaly it is the tail that I dislike the most, not the rest of the aircraft

I Love the New Delta Paint Scheme and I Love the old Widget Scheme. Any Combination of the two schemes would just be an abomination. The only good that could possibly come of that is the widget scheme with the bare metal belly.

Cheers
Carson
Will You Try to Change Things? Use the Power that you have, the Power of a Million new Ideas.
 
coleplane
Posts: 171
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:54 pm

RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:15 am

Quoting KBFIspotter (Reply 37):
First of all, I am not the one who said that...

Sorry about that Kris.

Moved around a bit and enjoyed a couple years in ATL. Now in Pitt where the plane spotting is nonexistent, I'd take a DL heavy in any color. Enjoyed the conversation.

Let me see now, how does that work again?... highlight, click on "Quote Selected Text...." JR
 scratchchin 
"About a nine on the tension scale there Rupe."
 
ordryan28
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:05 am

Quoting Flyboyseven (Thread starter):
What is the purpose of retro schemes on aircraft?

For many airlines, it brings back their "glory days" and/or rough beginnings. Gives airlines and pax alike a good example of how far some airlines have come.

Quoting Flyboyseven (Thread starter):
Also why are they on 319s so much?

smallest plane in many airline fleets= less money to paint in the retro.

-Ryan
Whoever said winning is not everything never fought cancer.
 
kbfispotter
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:16 pm

Quoting Coleplane (Reply 40):
Sorry about that Kris.

No problem.... I mainly just giving you a bad time... It's all good!

Kris
Proud to be an A&P!!!
 
PanHAM
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:02 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 34):
fill give you a lot of free advertising. Even a minor change like the LH radomes painted to resemble a soccer ball to promote the World Cup in Germany last summer generated a lot of free coverage all over the world.

especially when EK has paid US$ 40 Million to FIFA just for using the words FIFA and World Cup plus providing a helicopter to shuttle the Kaiser across and LH just painted a couple of radomes, got all the attention plus the additional business.

Brilliant.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
caribb
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:08 pm

Why not. They are interesting and reflect the airline's history. Let's face it airlines dump aircraft unceremoniously, change liveries like a jacket in some cases and in the end their history is simply replaced and forgotten for the most part. It's not an industry that generally celebrates it's past other than in the technical sence of avionic advances. It's all about the now and the future. So I for one appreciate airlines that bring back a bit of their history with these retro planes especially those carriers who bought up other good airlines to become what they are. Suddenly Piedmont or PSA is flying again.. I'd love to see a CP Air A340 or Western 777 or even a BOAC 747 again.. just for the fun of it and I guess that's the point, it makes some people stop, stare, take a picture or make a remark and perhaps that turns into sales down the road.
 
RICARIZA
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:35 am

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 31):
My question would be : Why not?
I think a retro scheme is a good way to celebrate an anniversary, like LH,AV,MX,AC, etc. I don't see a problem.

I agree... like this, when AV celebrated its 80th Birthday (in 1999).


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I miss ACES, I am proud of AVIANCA & I am loyal to AMERICAN
 
USADreamliner
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RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:45 am

I think they look smart, I still don't see the problem.



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Someone83
Posts: 4857
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:59 am

I love retro schemes.

Had two flight last fall on the SAS A319 painted in Dragon livery, and even though the inside is the same does it give me a little "cool, is the retro plane" feeling
 
flyboyseven
Topic Author
Posts: 803
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:24 pm

RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:43 am

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 46):
I think they look smart, I still don't see the problem.

I dont have a problem with them i was just wondering why
As long as the number of take-offs equals the number of landings...you're doing fine.
 
COEI2007
Posts: 837
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:33 am

RE: Retro Schemes----Why?

Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:48 am

Quoting Flyboyseven (Thread starter):
What is the purpose of retro schemes on aircraft? It would seem counter-productive with all the cost cutting that airlines try to do. Some do look cool though. Also why are they on 319s so much?

I personally think its cool! Its interesting, and a change from the normal! A lot of airline may be doing it to emphasise their heritage, and show customers they've been around for a long time, which is valuable to a lot of customers!

It isnt counter productive due to cost cutting etc, as most of the aircraft that are painted in retro-schemes, were due for re-painting anyway

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