Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 99): For a 23kg third bag on KLM, the excess fee ranges from €225 to €655 depending upon destination. BA is now charging a discounted fee for a second bag, that should be free on IATA carriers. Hardly generous

It is all based on short haul and long haul routes once again. If you go to BA.com and make sure you read thoroughly , you will see that flights from North America, Canada, Mexico and Brazil are exempted. They will continue to be allowed to check in 2 pieces at 32kg each. Anything in excess of 2 pieces in world traveler will be charged according to the new rates as indicated.Until September 30, 2007 flights from the US will continue to accept 2 bags per passenger. First and Club will be allowed to check in 3 bags per passenger.

Quoting BALAX (Reply 100):

I'm quite aware of the piece system, and I've read the thread and the new guidelines. It was disingenuous of you to completely ignore the fact that as an IATA carrier, BA is now going to charge for what is free on other IATA carriers, so I believe I've made my point quite clearly, as you are unable to respond to it.

as "shocking" and "disgraceful" as it is its hardly new news. This has been public information as long as June last year.
suddenly its happening next week and now "every one" including the media now want to know all about it.
i think this was supposed to happen back in Aug 06 but was held back due to the liquid terror alert at LHR so just be happy you got an extra 5 1/2 months with the old baggage policies �

[Edited 2007-02-10 03:55:53]

I did some research on LH and AF, BA's biggest competitors and it all seems rather balanced out, meaning, you may not get one thing on one carrier, but the other one will let you.

Some examples:

When it comes to carry on items. Although BA only allows you to transit the UK or fly out of the UK with 1 carry on item(2nd item not pemitted unless it's inside the bigger item and fits in the gauge), regardless of destination or class, this item can weigh up to 23kg. LH allows you 8kg maximum, AF allows you 12kg, combined.

LH on long haul flights from the US, Canada, Mexico and West Africa allows you to check in 2 bags maximum in First or Business at 32kg each, and 2 bags in Economy at 23kg maximum. Some other long haul routes increase the weight in Economy to 32kg each. BA in comparison allows First and Club to check in 3 bags per passenger. LH does allow you to take additional Kgs depending on your FF status with them, and it's for the weight based allowance, which according to their website is only 20kg total. So if BA goes down to 1 piece at 23kg , BA is still more generous.

When it comes to sports equipment, BA will still allow you to check in a piece of sporting equipment on top of your baggage allowance at no extra charge. AF and LH charge you even if it's within the allowance and dimensions. All in all I'd say BA is not too bad, is it.

Again if flyign LH within Germany and intra-European routes your maximum allowable weight when combined is 20kg.

Quoting BALAX (Reply 103): LH does allow you to take additional Kgs depending on your FF status with them, and it's for the weight based allowance, which according to their website is only 20kg total. So if BA goes down to 1 piece at 23kg , BA is still more generous.

Taking KL's rate for excess baggage (which honestly, looks on the high side, so it's probably a good example to use), if you wanted to take your IATA allowance of two bags raised up to BA's weight allowance of 23kg, it would cost you £120/€180 on BA, but on other IATA carriers you'd pay £30/€45. That's a difference of £90/€135/US$175 each way.

You really have to compare apples to apples.

[Edited 2007-02-10 08:18:41]

Why do you keep going to IATA? I just showed some comparisons of what seem to be the differences between some carriers and their baggage allowance, which is what is being talked about. Also, some of the charges you are talking about might be per kg, so check again as airlines have different ways of calculatin, LH for instance charges between EU5 to EU40 per kg, between different zones.

[Edited 2007-02-10 09:06:13]

Quoting BALAX (Reply 105): Why do you keep going to IATA?

BA is an IATA member. IATA develops standards for basic policies so that passengers generally know what to expect in exchange for their ticket price. BA is making a significant departure from the basic IATA guidelines that somewhere around 250 airlines around the world, big and small, have adopted.

They're an interesting group, you should check them out sometime: http://www.iata.org/

Quoting BALAX (Reply 105): I just showed some comparisons of what seem to be the differences between some carriers and their baggage allowance, which is what is being talked about.

And you came to some conclusions that didn't appear right, so I offered some of my own.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 106): And you came to some conclusions that didn't appear right, so I offered some of my own.

You said carriers, so if you'd be so kind as to look at the carriers individually and then provide information based on their regulations, not IATA. You said "other carriers", well, BA competes with LH and AF more than anything. If you check LH they charge you for excess between EUR5 and EUR40 PER KG between different zones.

Quoting BALAX (Reply 107): If you check LH they charge you for excess between EUR5 and EUR40 PER KG between different zones.

Look, everything necessary to be said has already been spelled out clearly. If you don't get that BA is departing from the IATA norms that their major competitors use, and are going to be collecting huge premiums for a second bag that's within the free limits on any other similar carrier, then I can't help you. I've shown you how if you wanted take 23kg on KLM spread over two bags, even how far less that would cost, but you either just don't get it or don't want to get it. You know, a 23kg bag is one heavy sucker, with everything crammed into every possible nook and cranny.

If you're happy shelling out a couple of hundred bucks thinking it's "the same" or "more generous", I hope you never do my shopping (or packing, for that matter).

Cheers, Westy

Westy,
not wishing to get into a flamewar, but a guideline is just that
It is not a writ in stone 'everyone must agree to it' rule

In a nutshell BA policy is IN THE HOLD
First 3 bags no more than 23kg
club world/ WTP 2 bags
Club Europe /WT 1 bag Unless going to N america Bermuda/Barbados.Carribbean Nigeria where it has always been two
Dom 1 bag

HAND LUGGAGE

1 bag only UK Govt Regs NOT BA

BA rules when above NOT enforced

First 2 bags up to 23kg as long as in gauge
All other classes 1 bag up to 23kg
plus
1 laptop
1 handbag or male equivalent
1 duty free bag

So if you pack cleverly you get 3x23kg as opposed to 2x 32 plus 6 kg (wow a 2kg loss) on NA flights

and2 x23kg as opposed to 1 x 32 plus 6 on all others (gaining 6kg)

Sports goods wheelchairs etc are considered outside the baggage allowance and are free as are firearms

Any questions?

Someone finally got it. Good homework.

Quoting Silverfox (Reply 109): BA rules when above NOT enforced First 2 bags up to 23kg as long as in gauge All other classes 1 bag up to 23kg plus 1 laptop 1 handbag or male equivalent 1 duty free bag So if you pack cleverly you get 3x23kg as opposed to 2x 32 plus 6 kg (wow a 2kg loss) on NA flights and2 x23kg as opposed to 1 x 32 plus 6 on all others (gaining 6kg)

HUH!!!??? those are not BA rules. The rules are simply:

Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 9): First and Club World - 3 bags Club Europe - 2 bags World Traveller Plus - 2 bags World Traveller (former piece routes) - 2 bags World Traveller (former weight routes), domestic and EuroTraveller - 1 bag

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 99): The figures you gave were entirely misleading, since BA is an IATA carrier, where 2 pieces are allowed under the weight system. For third bag charges, KLM has a PDF with example charges: See: http://www.klm.com/travel/tw_en/imag...overbagage_en_4_3_tcm152-16377.pdf For a 23kg third bag on KLM, the excess fee ranges from €225 to €655 depending upon destination. BA is now charging a discounted fee for a second bag, that should be free on IATA carriers. Hardly generous.

Thank you, you have just highlighted how confusing the current excess baggage system is and shown that you don't understand it. The KLM link you proved does not say anywhere that you are allowed 2 pieces under the weight system, merely that you are allowed 23kgs. There are two different tables, one that shows the piece system and one that shows the weight system.

Using the weight system, as this is where the change is more noticeable under the new BA system, you pay as you point out €225 to €655 for and exra 23kgs, based on destination. Under the BA system, you may £30 for domestic, £60 for short-haul and £120 for long-haul, so by comparison, the BA rates are much more favourable on any route you choose, even after conversion.

I think it's really important to make the differentiation here, that BA's new policy is mainly going to affect people travelling to destinations where the weight concept applies.

Quoting LGW (Reply 35): This isn't new, VS already operate the same policy http://www.virgin-atlantic.com/en/gb...rmation/baggage/baggagebypiece.jsp For VS economy class :- Two pieces of luggage per passenger, each weighing up to 23kg (51lbs). When added together, the three dimensions of any piece of luggage must not exceed 158cm (62in). VS charge less than BA, granted but simply because this is BA is gets a huge amount of media attention, also expect many others to follow suit.

Not strictly true there, the VS policy is NOT exactly the same..... The above you quote from VS website is for passengers travelling to destinations where the piece concept applies, and where the passenger is travelling in Y class. If a Y class passenger wishes to check in 3 bags on this route then they would be charged per bag (regardless of weight) at the following rates

NYC/IAD/BOS - £60 per bag
MIA - £70 per bag
SFO/LAX/LAS - £90 per bag
LOS - £110 per bag
Caribbean - £75 per bag

If a passenger is checking in 2 bags, either or both of which weigh over 23kg, then a £20 charge per bag is made.

W and J class pax can check 2 and 3 bags respectively weighing 32kg each.

Under the weight concept, pax travelling in Y and W class can check in a total of 23kg (regardless of number of bags), Upper Class are entitled to 30kg.

This is where BA are likely to have the most impact. If a pax turns up for a flight from LHR-DXB with 2 bags, 1 weighing 16 kg and 1 weighing 7kg, they will be charged £120 each way. If this pasenger was flying with VS or any number of another carriers, they would be charged nothing.

However, on the other had, if the same passenger had 2 bags, 1weighing 23kg, and the other 10kg, they would pay BA £120 each way. If the pax was travelling VS they would be paying £199 each way. So this is very much swings and round abouts.

Summary - If you're travelling on BA long haul to a weight concept destination you now need to stuff your 23kg into one bag. If you're used to paying excess baggage on these routes, you could very well save alot of money.

I'm not the greatest BA fan in the world, but I really dont think this is as serious as some people are making out. Who really needs to travel with more than 1 bag?? I've never travelled anywhere with more than 1 suitcase, and I did a 3 week round the world trip, to 3 very different climates. I think BA is onto something here, and as some people have joked in earlier posts, if they are processing less bags, they have less to "lose" or "misplace".. (they have done this to me on more than one occassion)

Quoting Art (Reply 112): Let's get real here. Unless passengers are warned about these charges before booking, they are going to get very, very annoyed when unexpectedly presented with a demand for £240 at checkin.

Dude, you are obsessed with the £240. It all depends on where you are going. The BBC may not be reporting accurate information. You need to refer to actual airline employees for this info. Where is it that you need to travel to? If it's the Middle East, well you are in luck because BMED is being bought out by BMI, so you might see different regulations for baggage. Currently you are allowed up to 23kg in WT for Intl/European flights(excluding US, Canada, Mexico , Brazil and Nigeria) so what is your problem? The price? Let's say you are going from London to Larnaca, currently the charge for excess baggage is calculated at £11.00 per kg , so if your bag is 10kg over, you end up paying £110 total instead of £84.00 with new policy. Plus not only that, you will be allowed to carry the extra weight in your carry on, up to 23kg. Or here's an idea, put the extra stuff inside sports equipment, golf clubs,whatever, hey, it'll run you free. Start looking at the whole picture and quit crying.

Quoting Ozvirginuk (Reply 113): I'm not the greatest BA fan in the world, but I really dont think this is as serious as some people are making out. Who really needs to travel with more than 1 bag?? I've never travelled anywhere with more than 1 suitcase, and I did a 3 week round the world trip, to 3 very different climates. I think BA is onto something here, and as some people have joked in earlier posts, if they are processing less bags, they have less to "lose" or "misplace".. (they have done this to me on more than one occassion)

Finally someone who gets it. At least it shows that people who actually look at the policy can see that this has been nothing more than the media trying to get the public worked up over nothing and doing a good job of it.

Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 115): Finally someone who gets it. At least it shows that people who actually look at the policy can see that this has been nothing more than the media trying to get the public worked up over nothing and doing a good job of it.

Firstly, Thanks! Secondly, the media exist to do just this... Doesn' t really matter what the topic is, you can trust them to blow it out of all proportion. Take the (limited) Snow we had during the week... On the weather report they are practically saying... stay in doors it going to be unbelievable.... What a load of crap... This is just their sensationalistic scaremongering.....

Oz

Speedbird2155

see my mail to you off line

However what i dont know is the situation whereby someone flies to USA today with 2 x 32kg bags as is allowed

and returns after 13 Feb

I think there might well be an period where pax will be allowed these without excess charges but i am not sure.
Will find out Monday and put answer

Ron

Pax traveling to North America will still be allowed 2 pcs at 32kg each until the end of September.

Quoting Art (Reply 119): I'm not crying because it will affect me. I don't think it will. I think it will adversely affect BA and its passengers. I cry for both of them.

Oh please, calm down...

I moved from Sydney to Dublin - yes - moved! I took one case (sure, it was 32kgs, but one case).

I can go away for a week and take cabin baggage.

Yes, it will effect BA and its passengers - all of those people paying £400 for their flight, and insist on taking 14 bags with them.

Quoting Art (Reply 119): What has "the best possible airport experience before you fly" got to do with people taking 1 bag or paying up to ?240 extra to take 2?

Easy - no more fools with 12 bags, 2 boxes, a surf board, golf clubs and the rest clogging up all the space at check in and in the terminal.

Willie stands by the move ---> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6349193.stm

A lot of comments about how silly, unnecessary it is for econ pax to check in two bags for a one week holiday. Then why is it necessary for first and biz pax to take 3 bags for the same one week holiday? I know the answer already "we pay more that's why". Not all econ pax are flying on r/t tickets for GBP100,--. Someone wrote how he feels "exploited" subsidizing econ pax. You want to pay more and get better service fine...it's a free world but please stop thinking the world revolves around you people. Get over yourselves.

Quoting Silverfox (Reply 109): Westy, not wishing to get into a flamewar, but a guideline is just that It is not a writ in stone 'everyone must agree to it' rule

I quite understand that, however, eliminating part of the standard and claiming it's "better for all" and few will be affected adversely is just plain insanity.

You fly with a carrier who forces you to load up one suitcase, I'll fly carriers who allow me to fly how I want to fly. Just don't try to convince anyone when they pay £120 for that second bag that's still within their 20 or 23kg limit, that "it's better this way". Okay?

Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 111): Thank you, you have just highlighted how confusing the current excess baggage system is and shown that you don't understand it. The KLM link you proved does not say anywhere that you are allowed 2 pieces under the weight system, merely that you are allowed 23kgs.

Oh please, don't be daft. The PDF I linked was clearly stated to be for referencing excess fees. If you wanted their baggage policy, go here (you could have found that yourself with two clicks in Google, sheesh):

http://www.klm.com/travel/gb_en/trav...aggage/baggage_allowance/index.htm

Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 115): Finally someone who gets it.

What that was was someone saying "who needs to travel with more than one bag?", not someone who understands the rules.  

KL/AF have a comparable concept. Just checked out the infamous site and my understanding is that "some" long haul flights operate under the pieces system and others under the weight system...surprise, surprise..flights to North America, Santo Domingo, Cuba and Brazil operate under the "pieces" system which shows 2 bags maximum at 23kg each. Okay, that's comparable to BA, except for BA still allows you 32kg. Again, KL charges for sporting equipment and BA doesn't. Should I go on? Under KL's weight system, the allowance is 20kg total for up to 2 pieces. So if you are smart, on BA you get up to 23kg with one bag(you can put an empty duffle inside the bigger one in case you need it for the return). As to the prices they charge, did you know that in order to get the discounts on KL you have to buy the Kgs in blocks of 5 ? An extra piece of luggage on some long haul flights will cost you EUR150 per bag. Interesting. The only part where they stand out is on domestic excess which they charge you only EUR3 per kg (that's for flights within France and the Netherlands), all else is very similar.

Quoting BALAX (Reply 124): KL/AF have a comparable concept. Just checked out the infamous site and my understanding is that "some" long haul flights operate under the pieces system and others under the weight system...surprise, surprise..flights to North America, Santo Domingo, Cuba and Brazil operate under the "pieces" system which shows 2 bags maximum at 23kg each.

I truly don't understand why everyone keeps going on about this. As been stated numerous times before, certain areas are covered under the piece system, some under the weight system, whoopie. We know that already.

It's just ridiculous to continually bring it up when it adds nothing to the conversation, as if you've just made some great discovery that will profit BA into the next millenium.

Whatever the rational - this is proving to be a PR disaster for BA and their CEO. The media loves this kind of issue - Doesn't matter that WW says that only 2% of BA passengers will be affected by this change, it's an issue that sells newspapers and TV time.

But WW has proven to be stubborn, only to back off before. He appears to be weak and not-focused on the important issues. This will not help him in the boardroom.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 123): Oh please, don't be daft. The PDF I linked was clearly stated to be for referencing excess fees. If you wanted their baggage policy, go here (you could have found that yourself with two clicks in Google, sheesh):

Hmmm, who's being daft?? You provide a link, make a claim and then when challenged, can't rely on that link to back you up, but have to then find another one. Further more, the second link you provided does not add any support for your earlier statement given that it at no point states that you can take 2 bags totalling 23kgs. Just as a reminder, your statement was:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 99): The figures you gave were entirely misleading, since BA is an IATA carrier, where 2 pieces are allowed under the weight system. For third bag charges, KLM has a PDF with example charges:

The actual information taken from klm.com states:


Checked baggage
There are two bagage allowance concepts:

Piece concept (PC is mentioned in the Baggage Allowance box of your ticket)
Applicable to/from:
- USA, US territories, Canada, Mexico, Brazil
- AF/KLM flights to Havana, Santo Domingo, Punta Cana
- AF/KLM flights to West Africa, Madagascar, Egypt

Weight concept (A kilogram weight is mentioned in the allowance box of your ticket)
Applicable to/from: all countries not falling under the Piece Concept

Free bagage allowance

Weight concept: Economy class 20 kg (44 lbs)

Piece concept: 2 pieces, each, max. 23 kg (50 lbs), max. 158 cm (3-dimensions)


From what I can see, 2 pieces are only mentioned in regards to the piece system routes and the allowance here is no different from BA. On the weight routes, you have managed to prove that BA actually has a more favourable allowance, even if it is limited to one bag. No matter how you many bags you opt to put 20kgs into under the KLM allowance, BA is still the greater allowance.

So please now show us how you arrived at the statement that 2 pieces are allowed under the weight system.

It is the same on Lufthansa airlines too.

For countries other than N America, Japan, West Africa, the following is applied as per weight system.

Quote: Free baggage allowance on all other international routes and within Germany On all routes not mentioned in the chart above (international and within Germany) the free baggage allowance is defined by the Weight Concept. Here the number of pieces is not so relevant but the overall weight of your baggage. This is allowed: * First Class: 40 kg * Business Class: 30 kg * Economy Class: 20 kg

I'm trying to understand what Westy is trying to say , can someone help?

Art,


BA have anounced that in order to put the onus on the customer as to whether thay can lift the bag or not,and absolve the Check in any possible litigation that they will bring in, SEVEN WEEKS FROM TODAY, a new gauge system in that the gauge will be the height of the overhead locker and placed adjacent to check in So if they can lift it it goes as cabin baggage, if not, its in the hold with the excess charge if its the extra bag. However BA will allow the customer to repack the bags in the check in queue, if they can get the third bag liftable to be admitted as cabin baggage,whilst as the same time the one or two bags (depending on route) weight less than 23kg each

Clear?

Quoting Art (Reply 132): I think a 1% drop in load factor. I think revenue per flight will be reduced and I know that there will be a cost involved in changing the system. Is it good business to give your customers reasons to defect to the competition because you want to introduce massive new charges for a tiny percentage, many of whom will take steps to avoid that charge?

Most of BA's revenue comes from full fare paying premium passengers - they will have a three bag allowance so it's not likely they would choose to switch airlines over this change.

Well, I am Gold on BA and Plat on AF. My company rules often force me to travel full fare Y in Europe. Now, I usually do not exceed the baggage allowance, but I find it more practical to split the weight across two pieces of checked baggage. Now, as I am neither elderly nor physically impaired, there will no mercy for me from BA staff. Today, I came back from Munich in coach on AF after a week of personal and professional travel. I had 40kg of documents and electronics and it fit within my coach allowance (20kg) plus my Plat allowance (20kg) and I was able to split it among three bags. So, the next time I am unfortunately flying coach from LHR to ATH or VIE, I will have to go through CDG rather than hope or beg for mercy. What I specifically object to in the new proposed rules is having to pay a charge for a second checked bag in coach, although the total weight is under the maximum baggage allowance. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Edited 2007-02-11 20:01:40]

Quoting Jouy31 (Reply 134): What I specifically object to in the new proposed rules is having to pay a charge for a second checked bag in coach, although the total weight is under the maximum baggage allowance. Nothing more, nothing less.

While this is a valid concern, the only way to standardise the excess charges and move away from the system of charging excess per kg, was to impose a full piece system on all routes. The rationale here being that it is clear what each passenger is allowed and what will be charged if that allowance is exceeded. If BA were to say you can take 2 bags up to a total of 23kgs, but you turned up with 2 bags totalling 25 kgs, then how would the excess be determined except going back to the weight system, which as has been noted, was dependent on route and could at times be as much as £40 or more per kg.

Jouy31,

forgive me, but why take two bags less than 23kg than 1 thats less than 23kg? after all its one less bag to carry?

Quoting Silverfox (Reply 136): orgive me, but why take two bags less than 23kg than 1 thats less than 23kg? after all its one less bag to carry?

Well, that's a good question, and I am just talking about my case, which is different from the difficulties elderly people can face; for me, I've found it easier to rush with two mid-weight rollers than with a large heavy one when going through various types of public transport, such as, but not limited to, when you need to put the bags above your seat in local trains, or when I go to meetings with just one of my bags which has just the professional documents and items I need. Or when I have several meetings in various locations and can have each of the bags dedicated to part of the destinations and leave the other at the airport. Others can have different reasons, but packing within the limits for my travel pattern, where I mix professional and personal travels, is a continuous challenge and it is really not fun.

Jouy

Fair point,

The roller one?.... will it fit into the gauge? or will the other fit?

Either way if they fit and wieigh less than 23kg, the 'second bag' is now your carry on

That should help you.

And seeing that no one spotted it, the bit i put in an earlier post about the gauge having a bar to test peoples abilty to lift it into the overhead locker was a bit of a joke, hence the SEVEN WEEKS TODAY , which as it was posted yesterday will be Apl 1


Ron

Thanks. Unfortunately, I already have my laptop as a carry-on.

Put your lap top inside the carry on one?

Only trying to help