pygmalion
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A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:48 am

Interesting article in AWST about Cathay and its search for a new large freighter. Will it be the A380F or the 748F?

But the thing that really caught my interest was this little blurb at the end of the article.

Quote:

Another high-profile test milestone looms for the A380, possibly by next week. The aircraft will undergo maximum energy rejected takeoff testing at the French flight-test center at Istres. The drill, in which a fully fueled aircraft with worn brakes has to abort takeoff at the last moment, usually damages the test aircraft, at least to some extent.

There were also comments about MSN003 for SQ. It appears to be coming along but not without some teething pains...

Quote:
Meanwhile, Airbus is continuing to closely monitor progress on MSN003, the first Singapore aircraft. Cabin installation has begun and the program is largely on plan, but Heinen concedes it has taken extra effort, at times, to maintain the schedule margin built into the program when it was last restructured in September 2006.

Singapore will likely try to start revenue-generating flights with the A380 in November. Since it will initially have only one aircraft, the focus will probably be on regional locations, such as Sydney or Hong Kong, to allow the aircraft to be turned and get support at its home in Singapore

Lots of interesting tidbits...
 
scouseflyer
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:03 am

This is the test that the A346 caught fire in isn't it?
 
pygmalion
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:33 am

yes. It is not a test for the timid. Maximum energy stop from RTO speeds with brakes worn to minimum without thrust reversers. Aircraft must be able to roll from the runway under its own power with no flame impingement on the cabin for 5 very long minutes.
 
leelaw
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:48 am

The "maximum energy" RTO test looks to be approximately one-month behind the schedule forecast in December.

See: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...nical-criteria-met-test-pilot.html

Perhaps it has something to do generally poor weather conditions in France in recent weeks?
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
Marquis
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:52 am

@Pygmalion

Thank you for mentioning the requirements which have to be met in order to pass this test.

I am sure this test will make for some interesting footage.
Riding the radials...
 
scouseflyer
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:54 am

Would the AN225 have had to of gone through this test? If not then this must be the heaviest test of this type ever attempted?
 
Beaucaire
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:02 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 3):
Perhaps it has something to do generally poor weather conditions in France in recent weeks?

The weather in the south of France has been quite nice the last days...
They do it in Istres,because the runways is the longest in France (about 5 Km) and it is the official test-center for aircaft emergency testing.
Would love to attend this spectacular event- some videos about the 777 break-tests are arround on Youtube and quite stunning .They said they spent about 750.000 $ just in burned tires ans landing-gear damage during the test.
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astuteman
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:53 am

Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 2):
Maximum energy stop from RTO speeds with brakes worn to minimum without thrust reversers. Aircraft must be able to roll from the runway under its own power with no flame impingement on the cabin for 5 very long minutes.

IIRC an interim 90% (or 95%) Max. energy RTO was conducted last year prior to the ELF's, with no problems reported. Be interesting to see if the extrta 5% or 10% makes a substantial difference

Quoting Pygmalion (Thread starter):
There were also comments about MSN003 for SQ. It appears to be coming along but not without some teething pains...



Quoting Pygmalion (Thread starter):
Heinen concedes it has taken extra effort, at times, to maintain the schedule margin built into the program

I would imagine if this quote were regarding the 787 programme, a large number of people would (rightly) be quick to point out that schedule margin IS being maintained, and that Boeing were being honest about the situation.

I'll enjoy seeing the same privilege afforded to Airbus.  Smile

Regards
 
redflyer
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:02 am

I'd give anything to be able to watch this test. Will be quite a sight to see a beast that size undergoing an RTO test. But I suspect she will have an easier time than most aircraft because it's been pointed out before that there is less weight on each wheel than, say, a 747. I presume this will translate into less energy being dissapated at each wheel/brake assembly.
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pygmalion
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:21 am

How many main gear wheels does the A380 have? 747 has 16. You have to remember that the speed also matters (alot!) Anyone have table of Vref for the A380? I'll go look up the 747
 
kaitak744
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:30 am

Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 9):
How many main gear wheels does the A380 have? 747 has 16. You have to remember that the speed also matters (alot!) Anyone have table of Vref for the A380? I'll go look up the 747


747 has 16 main wheels and 16 brakes
A380 has 20 main wheels and 16 brakes.

747 has 4 engines and 4 reverse thrusters.
A380 has 4 engines and 2 reverse thrusters.

Seems like the A380 might struggle to stop.

[Edited 2007-02-12 21:30:54]
 
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Stitch
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:30 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 7):
IIRC an interim 90% (or 95%) Max. energy RTO was conducted last year prior to the ELF's, with no problems reported. Be interesting to see if the extrta 5% or 10% makes a substantial difference

Do you know what the brake-wear level was, per chance?


Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 9):
How many main gear wheels does the A380 have?

I believe it is 20 - two four-wheel bogies and two six-wheel bogies.

The A388P has 16 brakes and the A388F has 20.

[Edited 2007-02-12 21:32:18]
 
osiris30
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:34 am

Quoting Pygmalion (Thread starter):
Meanwhile, Airbus is continuing to closely monitor progress on MSN003, the first Singapore aircraft. Cabin installation has begun and the program is largely on plan, but Heinen concedes it has taken extra effort, at times, to maintain the schedule margin built into the program when it was last restructured in September 2006.

So long as the schedule is holding, then there is really nothing to that statement, other than the programme is being managed properly (finally).

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 10):
A380 has 4 engines and 2 reverse thrusters.

What?!?! Why are only two engines equipped with thrust reversers... That seems just silly to me (yes I know the weight and maintenance savings are non-trivial for those). Are you sure of that information?

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 7):
IIRC an interim 90% (or 95%) Max. energy RTO was conducted last year prior to the ELF's, with no problems reported. Be interesting to see if the extrta 5% or 10% makes a substantial difference

And were those tests done with worn brake systems or tip-top ones? (not accusing just asking).
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
Marquis
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:34 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 10):

747 has 4 engines and 4 reverse thrusters.
A380 has 4 engines and 2 reverse thrusters.

Thrust reversers must not be used for decelaration during this test.
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RichardPrice
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:40 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 12):
What?!?! Why are only two engines equipped with thrust reversers... That seems just silly to me (yes I know the weight and maintenance savings are non-trivial for those). Are you sure of that information?

Yes, it only has two reversers. There have been many threads on this in Tech Ops, with good explainations on it. Essentially the A380 has lower takeoff and approach speeds, which helps a hell of a lot.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 12):
And were those tests done with worn brake systems or tip-top ones? (not accusing just asking).

Also in answer to a question by Stitch - Whatever was needed to gain type certification, since that was granted at the start of December. This test will raise the MTOW the aircraft will be certified at.
 
osiris30
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:44 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 14):
Yes, it only has two reversers. There have been many threads on this in Tech Ops, with good explainations on it. Essentially the A380 has lower takeoff and approach speeds, which helps a hell of a lot.

Is this the first aircraft to this sort of a configuration for thrust reversers (i.e. first 4/2). Usually it's been all or nothing in the past (with the exception of those whacky 3 engined birds :P ). As long as it works, it's a good way to save some weight.

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 14):
Also in answer to a question by Stitch - Whatever was needed to gain type certification, since that was granted at the start of December. This test will raise the MTOW the aircraft will be certified at.

And info on a prod cert yet?
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
Beaucaire
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:48 am

It is my understanding that V1 speed for the A380 is a mere 130 knots,whereas the 777 or 747 are closer to 158 Knots ..
So the kinetic energy although huge,will be somewhat reduced by a slower take-off velocity of the A380 as compared to the big Boeing mdels.
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RichardPrice
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:49 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 15):
And info on a prod cert yet?

Im sure we will hear something when theres something to hear  Smile
 
Rheinbote
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:26 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 12):
And were those tests done with worn brake systems or tip-top ones?

Would that make a difference? I guess it won't.
 
A342
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:35 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 15):
Is this the first aircraft to this sort of a configuration for thrust reversers (i.e. first 4/2).

No. The IL-62 and some versions of the VC-10 also had only 2 thrust reversers, but on the outboard engines. The A380's two T/Rs are on the inner engines. Another reason for this configuration: it prevents blowing up debris on narrow runways.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
osiris30
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:44 am

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 18):
Would that make a difference? I guess it won't.

Well worn brakes are likely to induce hotspots more readily than factory fresh brakes would. Plus pads worn thin are more likely to fail putting more stress on other brakes. Think of about, if it didn't make a difference why would the test specifically call out brake wear?

Quoting A342 (Reply 19):
No. The IL-62 and some versions of the VC-10 also had only 2 thrust reversers, but on the outboard engines. The A380's two T/Rs are on the inner engines. Another reason for this configuration: it prevents blowing up debris on narrow runways.

Thanks for that, learn something new every day  Smile. Also good point re the narrow runways, with that big span the outboards do hang way out there. I would imagine ingestion would be a concern on smaller runways.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
GRIVely
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:55 am

I know this is an important event and has attracted the attention of all of us aircraft buffs. What has been the experience with other aircraft? Is there a pass/fail rating and if it is fail what would that mean in terms of certifications, rework, etc?

And no, I am not wishing the aircraft ill, just wondering what has happened in previous aircraft cases.

GRIV
 
osiris30
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:00 am

Quoting GRIVely (Reply 21):
I know this is an important event and has attracted the attention of all of us aircraft buffs. What has been the experience with other aircraft? Is there a pass/fail rating and if it is fail what would that mean in terms of certifications, rework, etc?

Pass or fail it's usually a rather specular event. The 777 pass was well documented (videos linked on here if you search). The 346 failure was equally well documented and even more specular (videos also linked if you search around the forums).

I wouldn't expect a failure, but seeing as how razor thin margins are in today's designs (by all manufacturers) one wouldn't be totally shocking either. Be fun either way.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
Marquis
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:06 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 16):
So the kinetic energy although huge,will be somewhat reduced by a slower take-off velocity of the A380 as compared to the big Boeing mdels.

This video gives you a great idea of how much stress the brakes of the A380 will have to withstand during the RTO test.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1dv_y_3EK0&eurl=

Quoting GRIVely (Reply 21):
And no, I am not wishing the aircraft ill, just wondering what has happened in previous aircraft cases.

Here is a link with some high definition photos of an A340-600 doing the very same test with a sadly disastrous ending and thus failing the test.

http://www.aviationpics.de/test/a346/page_01.htm
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OldAeroGuy
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:12 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 16):
It is my understanding that V1 speed for the A380 is a mere 130 knots,whereas the 777 or 747 are closer to 158 Knots ..

This is an advantage the A388 has since it's wing is sized for the A389, yielding low wing loadings and low operating speeds for the present configuration.

It's the difference from being the initial model of a series as opposed to being a fully developed version.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
elvis777
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:17 pm

Howdy Astuteman,

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 7):
Quoting Pygmalion (Thread starter):
There were also comments about MSN003 for SQ. It appears to be coming along but not without some teething pains...



Quoting Pygmalion (Thread starter):
Heinen concedes it has taken extra effort, at times, to maintain the schedule margin built into the program

I would imagine if this quote were regarding the 787 programme, a large number of people would (rightly) be quick to point out that schedule margin IS being maintained, and that Boeing were being honest about the situation.

I'll enjoy seeing the same privilege afforded to Airbus. Smile

I agree that the same consideration should be afforded to eads. However there is another twist to the tale if you would... Several proponents of the whalejet have been speculating that perhaps eads can deliver the 380 before the promised data- as it appears the production problems have been solved. Lots of ink, if you would, has been spilled on how eads could be holding back and ready to pounce and yield a big surprise by delivering this bird early. .. So this information is actually beneficial in that it puts an end to that speculation. So I think it is worth mentioning, considerations aside, dont you?

Peace

Elvis777
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mkorpal
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:41 pm

Does anyone have the video of the A340 test, since youtube took it down. I would like to see it, thanks.

Good luck A380!
 
airfrnt
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:42 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 7):
I'll enjoy seeing the same privilege afforded to Airbus.

Astute, with all due respect,
a) No one had mentioned the 787 until this post.
b) Airbus dug their own hole here.
c) No one had criticized Airbus's work to meet their schedule here.

I am interested in seeing the RTO test, but did the A380 already get some form of operating certificate back in December? How can that occur before the RTO test is completed?
 
osiris30
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:50 pm

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 27):
How can that occur before the RTO test is completed?

It's provisional at a lower MTOW
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:22 pm

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 27):
I am interested in seeing the RTO test, but did the A380 already get some form of operating certificate back in December? How can that occur before the RTO test is completed?



Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 28):
It's provisional at a lower MTOW

Actually, the MTOW was not reduced. In Dec. '06 the A380 TCDS listed MTOW's of 560t (basic)and 569t (optional). Any restriction would have been to the brake energy that had been demonstrated at the time that the Type Cert. was issued. This would mean that the A380 as certified in Dec. '06 would have been more TOW limited at high/hot airfields than will be the case if this max. brake energy test is successful. High/hot means higher brake energy because reduced air density increases the true airspeed required to generate the dynamic pressure needed for takeoff at a given weight and flap setting.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:37 pm

I hope the fire brigade is a little more on the ball than with the A346 test. And I hope they have some real fire engines and properly-equipped firefighters this time. Their response and amateurism during the A346 test is embarrassing.

Mark
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
wjcandee
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:38 pm

Quoting Mkorpal (Reply 26):
Does anyone have the video of the A340 test, since youtube took it down. I would like to see it, thanks.

Well, the long video with the Airbus engineers being all Chuck Yeager-ish and calm while stuff starts happening but then calling out "Feu! Feu!" is gone. However, there is one called "Wheel of Fire" that just has the "good parts" and a musical soundtrack, as well as some enlargements of the molten tires shooting past the lackadaisical fireman. It is at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRD-_glEThs
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:45 pm

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 30):
And I hope they have some real fire engines and properly-equipped firefighters this time. Their response and amateurism during the A346 test is embarrassing.

One of the reasons Boeing does their RTO testing at Edwards AFB. The firefighters down there know their stuff.

[Edited 2007-02-13 06:46:14]
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:08 pm

Quoting Mkorpal (Reply 26):
Does anyone have the video of the A340 test

Here's a different angle (more ways than one).  Silly



Mark
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
leelaw
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:34 pm

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 29):
Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 27):
I am interested in seeing the RTO test, but did the A380 already get some form of operating certificate back in December? How can that occur before the RTO test is completed?



Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 28):
It's provisional at a lower MTOW

Actually, the MTOW was not reduced. In Dec. '06 the A380 TCDS listed MTOW's of 560t (basic)and 569t (optional). Any restriction would have been to the brake energy that had been demonstrated at the time that the Type Cert. was issued. This would mean that the A380 as certified in Dec. '06 would have been more TOW limited at high/hot airfields than will be the case if this max. brake energy test is successful. High/hot means higher brake energy because reduced air density increases the true airspeed required to generate the dynamic pressure needed for takeoff at a given weight and flap setting.

This is probably explained by the fact that Airbus/EADS management had invested a lot of company "prestige" in achieving "type-certification" by the end of 2006. Nevertheless, the "imperative" of achieving "type-certification" by the end December 2006 (even as it turned-out at less than maximum capability) was ultimately rendered mostly a P.R. driven exercise anyway, since there wasn't a "production certificate" issued concurrently to allow for delivery of operational production aircraft to customers.
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:58 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 34):
This is probably explained by the fact that Airbus/EADS management had invested a lot of company "prestige" in achieving "type-certification" by the end of 2006. Nevertheless, the "imperative" of achieving "type-certification" by the end December 2006 (even as it turned-out at less than maximum capability) was ultimately rendered mostly a P.R. driven exercise anyway, since there wasn't a "production certificate" issued concurrently to allow for delivery of operational production aircraft to customers.

I was being tactful by not pointing this out.

But since you've said it, it's also the reason the TCDS was issued prior to completion of the autoland testing.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
astuteman
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:10 pm

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 12):
And were those tests done with worn brake systems or tip-top ones? (not accusing just asking).

They were done with worn brakes. IIRC Peter Chandler, the Test Pilot said he was having to tiptoe on the brakes at the Farnborough Air Show because they were "virtually shot" in preparation for the interim RTO

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 27):
I am interested in seeing the RTO test, but did the A380 already get some form of operating certificate back in December? How can that occur before the RTO test is completed?

As has been said, an interim RTO was undertaken after the Farnborough Air Show.
I did in fact bring it up in my first post. ....  Smile

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 7):
IIRC an interim 90% (or 95%) Max. energy RTO was conducted last year prior to the ELF's, with no problems reported. Be interesting to see if the extrta 5% or 10% makes a substantial difference

Regards
 
Electech6299
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:10 pm

Quoting Pygmalion (Thread starter):
extra effort

I assume that's a tactful way of saying overtime for the workers (yippee!), not to mention over budget.
(OK, before I'm flamed, over base budget. I am well aware that some OT is planned for and expected...)

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 30):
I hope the fire brigade is a little more on the ball than with the A346 test. And I hope they have some real fire engines and properly-equipped firefighters this time. Their response and amateurism during the A346 test is embarrassing.

Uh, isn't the whole point of the test to determine safety in the cabin under worst-case scenario? I don't want to know that the plane I'm flying is safe to land (or take off, or actually NOT take off as it were) at Edwards AFB with the best and brightest standing by. I want to know it's safe in the coldest night of the sleepiest shift at the smallest field it will ever fly from, where the rescue truck might well take more than 5 minutes to get there. If it melts a tire or two (or ten) but the cabin is intact and smoke-free after 5 minutes, fine. But I suspect the foam trucks were under orders not to interfere with the test. Maybe now there is a more clear communication system to alert everyone when the test is over.

Gee, I hate having to stick up for the EU after all we Yankees are subjected to on this forum

Seriously, though, could anyone speak to the test requirements? Does it have to be foam-free for the entire 300 seconds to pass? If not, are there limits to the fire response? Or is any open flame an automatic failure?

[Edited 2007-02-13 09:12:29]

[Edited 2007-02-13 09:13:54]
Send not to know for whom the bell tolls...it tolls for thee
 
PADSpot
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:16 pm

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 5):
Would the AN225 have had to of gone through this test?

The AN225 has got a dedicated certificate and not a type certificate, as there is no type as such produced in series. It was also produced for the military to carry the Buran Space Shuttle, thus to make the test realistic, one had to put the Buran on top. RTO test must have been like a catapult start for the Buran. Enjoy!  mischievous 


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scouseflyer
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:23 pm

Quoting Electech6299 (Reply 37):
But I suspect the foam trucks were under orders not to interfere with the test. Maybe now there is a more clear communication system to alert everyone when the test is over

But they did intervene but in a very amatuerish manner - they appeared to have a garden hose and kept running away when the tyres exploded. You could also hear the pilot asking "Prenez L'escalier" (bring the stairs) in a more and more desparate manner!

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 38):
The AN225 has got a dedicated certificate and not a type certificate, as there is no type as such produced in series. It was also produced for the military to carry the Buran Space Shuttle, thus to make the test realistic, one had to put the Buran on top. RTO test must have been like a catapult start for the Buran. Enjoy

Wow! Cool!
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:38 pm

The firefighters for the A340 test were there, on the ball, and ready to do their job. However airbus would rather damage the plane a good solid bit and pass the test, than have the firefighters put it out prior to the 5min window of no external aid expiring.

The reason for using worn brakes is that they can be weaker or have a higher failure rate. On the other hand, worn brakes can work BETTER than new one, generating more stopping power than new, and in doing so cause more heat generation into what is obviously less mass. In other words if your brakes grip better after wearing in a bit, you need to be able to handle the thermal loads that it generates as thats what causes fires. Its also a good point to start at for a regulating agency as they know planes only have "new" brakes for a very short time, and that a manufactures own testing should remove the issues of what happens with fresh brakes on a plane. They however must know that Flybynight airline with their barely legal brake upkeep can get the airplane to a stop safely and w/o problems for long enough that help can arrive.

which brings me back to the A340, while its not good that it cought on fire, it passed as the passengers would not have been affected by the fire till after the 5min that its assumed (regulated?) any decent airport can get firefighting equipement to the plane.
 
scouseflyer
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:41 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 40):
which brings me back to the A340, while its not good that it cought on fire, it passed as the passengers would not have been affected by the fire till after the 5min that its assumed (regulated?) any decent airport can get firefighting equipement to the plane.

Did they not develop new wheels or tyres after this test and then repeat it with a better result?
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:56 pm

I have not heard of any re-testing of the brakes of the A340, but I would be suprised if they did not recieve updates, or upgrades over time. Certainly I know the brakes are one area of aircraft design that money is allways being spent on, as its important on nearly every level of aircraft performance from inflight operation, safety, and fleet economics.

I wonder if the A340 has upgraded to carbon-carbon brakes yet or are they using a more traditional system
 
joemonster
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:46 pm

RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:20 pm

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 15):
Is this the first aircraft to this sort of a configuration for thrust reversers (i.e. first 4/2). Usually it's been all or nothing in the past (with the exception of those whacky 3 engined birds :P ). As long as it works, it's a good way to save some weight.

I may be mistaken as it was a long time ago but didn't the tristar have thrust reversers on all three endines  Yeah sure I'm sure i remember seeing the very back slide away from the airframe which i'd imagine was a reverser...
 
Electech6299
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:21 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 40):
which brings me back to the A340, while its not good that it cought on fire, it passed as the passengers would not have been affected by the fire till after the 5min that its assumed (regulated?) any decent airport can get firefighting equipement to the plane.

Uh, unless I missed something significant, it failed, and dramatically so. To pass, the aircraft must be able to depart the runway under it's own power. I suspect that the 340 in question didn't power itself anywhere after that test. The failed test was to try to certify the type for a higher MTOW under high/hot conditions, as explained by OldAeroGuy. It didn't get the cert they were seeking, but it had already passed the lower rating.

Again, I imagine the A340 incident provided some valuable analysis and new procedures for communication during RTO testing. Losing a frame during this test is an acceptable loss. Losing a test pilot is not. From the video and the comments here, it seems like the fire crew were disorganized- and my speculation is that their performance was due to half of them thinking they should let the test run it's course while the others tried to fight the fire. A major communication snafu. It seems that nobody (including the pilot) was clear on their role. Is that the fault of the fire department, the regulatory inspectors, EADS, or all of the above?
Send not to know for whom the bell tolls...it tolls for thee
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:39 pm

no, it is my understanding that the minimum requirement is to stop safely after a RTO at MTOW, and be able to safely remain where stopped for 5min before crash crews can arrive. Certainly any requirement to move under its own power is NOT going to be a factor in this as any reason for rejecting takeoff in this worst case situation is one that you will NOT be moving the plane under its own power till a signifigant ammount of time has passed. This isn't like you hitting the brakes on your car at 60mph, this is like loading up your car to twice its empty wieght, running it up to 150mph and standing on the brakes after the engine explodes. Do you think they would require a plane to move if the pilot deemed it better to stop rather than wait a couple tenths of a second and just take off instead of doing such an extreme manuver?

more importantly the energy the aircraft has when it rejected take off went somewhere... this is heat now stored in the brakes/hubs/tires/landing gear. A actual burning fire doesn't need to exist to be a hazard to others around it. Trying to move an aircraft that has just stressed its brakes, tires and landing gear to the limits w/o inspection is stupid if not criminal, much less doing so when it has a full heatsoak to its thermal limits.
 
GBan
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:34 pm

From

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...8d90f86256ba6004667d9?OpenDocument

(3) Most severe landing stop. The most severe landing stop is a stop at the most critical combination of airplane landing weight and speed. The most severe landing stop brake kinetic energy absorption requirement of each wheel, brake, and tire assembly must be determined. It must be substantiated by dynamometer testing that, at the declared fully worn limit(s) of the brake heat sink, the wheel, brake and tire assembly is capable of absorbing not less than this level of kinetic energy. The most severe landing stop need not be considered for extremely improbable failure conditions or if the maximum kinetic energy accelerate-stop energy is more severe.
(g) Brake condition after high kinetic energy dynamometer stop(s). Following the high kinetic energy stop demonstration(s) required by paragraph (f) of this section, with the parking brake promptly and fully applied for at least 3 minutes, it must be demonstrated that for at least 5 minutes from application of the parking brake, no condition occurs (or has occurred during the stop), including fire associated with the tire or wheel and brake assembly, that could prejudice the safe and complete evacuation of the airplane.
 
ncelhr
Posts: 258
Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:53 pm

RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:11 pm

Quoting Electech6299 (Reply 44):
Uh, unless I missed something significant, it failed, and dramatically so. To pass, the aircraft must be able to depart the runway under it's own power. I suspect that the 340 in question didn't power itself anywhere after that test. The failed test was to try to certify the type for a higher MTOW under high/hot conditions, as explained by OldAeroGuy. It didn't get the cert they were seeking, but it had already passed the lower rating.

Actually, the Video that was on Youtube shows that it runs for a while after applying the brakes and is able to taxi off the runway.
wrt to timings, I don't have the video at hand so I can't tell you much time passed before the wheels caught on fire.
What made it look more dangerous on the A340 test than the B777 test is that Boeing's tires deflated in a controlled manner thanks to plugs that were supposed to melt at specific temperatures, whilst in the Airbus test they either did not have those plugs in place or they did not work and the tires exploded (with a very frightened fireman - poor guy!)

The fire and the smoke are expected. Had the fireman had more than a garden hose to extinguish it, there would have been less damage to the plane itself. I wonder how much it cost Airbus to get that bird flying again...

There is another video on Youtube showing a single brake/wheel assembly test in a lab (for, I think, the A380). Impressive machine. The forces at work are just incredible. (release of energy etc.) In any case, an Aircraft's braking system is a real wonder of technology, just like a lot of other things in Aircraft and no matter where you stand on the Boeing/Airbus debate, you cannot but admit that it's great we've got those guys working for us to keep us flying, further and safer.
 
Dtw757
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:14 pm

Correct me if I am wrong, but shouldn't this test have been performed a LONG time ago since the A380 was suppose to be in service by now?
721,2,732,3,4,5,G,8,9,741,2,3,4,752,3,762,3,4,772,3,788,D93,5,M80,D10,M11,L10,100,AB6,319,20,21,332,3,346,388,146,CR2,7,
 
RichardPrice
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Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:12 am

RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:21 pm

Quoting DTW757 (Reply 48):
Correct me if I am wrong, but shouldn't this test have been performed a LONG time ago since the A380 was suppose to be in service by now?

It was done previously, thats why its been type certified.

The timeline is, however, up for debate.

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