OldAeroGuy
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:40 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 49):
It was done previously, thats why its been type certified.

The max. brake energy test has not been performed yet. The Dec. '06 Type Cert was for a test performed at a lower energy level. This was discussed earlier in the thread.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
RichardPrice
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:44 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 50):

The max. brake energy test has not been performed yet. The Dec. '06 Type Cert was for a test performed at a lower energy level. This was discussed earlier in the thread.

That wasnt what was asked tho, and I was aware of the fact that the type certificate is for a lower energy level, I raised it in reply 14 in this thread.

The fact remains that this test has been done previously, and that answers DTW757s question.
 
Dtw757
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:15 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 51):
The fact remains that this test has been done previously, and that answers DTW757s question.

Thanks, I missed that earlier in the thread about the test being conducted last year.
721,2,732,3,4,5,G,8,9,741,2,3,4,752,3,762,3,4,772,3,788,D93,5,M80,D10,M11,L10,100,AB6,319,20,21,332,3,346,388,146,CR2,7,
 
pygmalion
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:42 am

the A340 failed the max RTO test due to the failure of the wheels and tires.

Regulations state:

Quote:
Overpressure burst prevention. Means must be provided in each wheel to prevent wheel failure and tire burst that may result from excessive pressurization of the wheel and tire assembly.

Safe evacuation of the aircraft during the 5 minute no fire protection window is difficult with chunks of flaming magnesium wheels and burning rubber flying all over. If you look at the photos post test of the A340, you will see fractured chunks of the wheel laying all over. Thats what caused the test failure and the main reason all those firefighters were doing duck and cover.
 
Electech6299
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:27 am

Quoting Ncelhr (Reply 47):
There is another video on Youtube showing a single brake/wheel assembly test in a lab (for, I think, the A380).

You mean the one linked in reply 23?

Quoting Marquis (Reply 23):
This video gives you a great idea of how much stress the brakes of the A380 will have to withstand during the RTO test.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1dv_...eurl=



Quoting Ncelhr (Reply 47):
I don't have the video at hand

The video in post 33 has a timer, forward movement stopped at 9:04:24, the wheels were popping after 3 minutes and by 9:09:00 the carriage was engulfed. Less than 5 minutes.

So, if you would, to refine my understanding, and apparently Osiris, Scouseflyer, Marquis, and others, did the A340 pass the test that was conducted in this video or not? There are both claims on this thread, and there is plenty of external evidence as to which one is correct.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 22):
The 346 failure



Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 41):
Did they not develop new wheels or tyres after this test and then repeat it with a better result?



Quoting Marquis (Reply 23):
thus failing the test.

and then we see

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 40):
it passed

and the many intimations in the posts by Ncelhr that nothing went wrong.

Quoting GBan (Reply 46):
From
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...8d90f86256ba6004667d9?OpenDocument

Thanks for the link, although I would have included the previous paragraph, relevant to this thread:

Quote:
(2) Maximum kinetic energy accelerate-stop. The maximum kinetic energy accelerate-stop is a rejected takeoff for the most critical combination of airplane takeoff weight and speed. The accelerate-stop brake kinetic energy absorption requirement of each wheel, brake, and tire assembly must be determined. It must be substantiated by dynamometer testing that the wheel, brake, and tire assembly is capable of absorbing not less than this level of kinetic energy throughout the defined wear range of the brake. The energy absorption rate derived from the airplane manufacturer's braking requirements must be achieved. The mean deceleration must not be less than 6 fps 2.

I say more relevant because I believe the RTO max kinetic energy would surely be higher than most severe landing- based on the presumption that V1 at MTOW is higher than landing speed at MLW. Please correct me if I am wrong...

I also think this document provides a better picture of what the regulators are looking for, in paragraph g(3) on page 13. (sorry, it's a pdf, I can't cut and paste and I'm not going to type it out...) This is the non-regulatory Advisory Circular that details how to comply with 14 CFR 25 sections 731 and 735. (Non-regulatory means they can't require it to be done this way, but if you don't, your certification time and costs are going to increase exponentially...so it's a "good idea" to comply)

Apparently I was wrong about departing the runway... I'm not sure where I picked that up, is that part of another test?
Send not to know for whom the bell tolls...it tolls for thee
 
GBan
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:50 am

Quoting Electech6299 (Reply 54):
I say more relevant because I believe the RTO max kinetic energy would surely be higher than most severe landing- based on the presumption that V1 at MTOW is higher than landing speed at MLW. Please correct me if I am wrong...

I think you are right !
 
EI321
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:58 am

Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 53):
the A340 failed the max RTO test due to the failure of the wheels and tires.

I thought damage to wheels/tyres/brakes during an RTO test is normal and even expected???
 
Electech6299
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:09 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 56):
I thought damage to wheels/tyres/brakes during an RTO test is normal and even expected???

I guess it depends on what you consider damage vs. failure. If you read the linked regs, as it is quoted in reply 53, the wheels must be equipped with overpressure safety plugs that will release before the tire actually explodes, like it did on the 340 test. Melted bearings, smoldering brakes, flattened and smoking tires are expected (damage), but not uncontained explosions resulting in flaming tires flying through the evacuation area (failure) edit:clarity

[Edited 2007-02-13 19:10:45]
Send not to know for whom the bell tolls...it tolls for thee
 
ncelhr
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:52 am

Quoting Electech6299 (Reply 54):

and the many intimations in the posts by Ncelhr that nothing went wrong.

Actually, I only posted one message in this thread and to my knowledge, did not make many intimations that nothing went wrong.  duck 
I merely mentioned that in the Boeing test, plugs melted that allowed the tires to deflate in a controlled manner whilst in the Airbus test, they burst in a dramatic way.

If you want my opinion, the Boeing test looks a lot more like what *should* happen and the Airbus test, what *should not* happen. Then again I've been involved with neither test so who am I to judge?
For all I know, had the aircraft been totally engulfed in flames & the manufacturer issued a press release that this is what was supposed to happen, I would have found it bizarre... but believed them  Smile After all, do you know an aircraft manufacturer that lies?
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:36 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 51):
The fact remains that this test has been done previously, and that answers DTW757s question.

I don't believe the max. energy RTO was done earlier. This is the type of test you only want to do once for each brake vendor. Certainly an RTO at high energy has been performed, but not the max. brake energy. Do you have a source that says max. brake energy RTO has already been done?

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 14):
This test will raise the MTOW the aircraft will be certified at.

This statement is also not true. The A380 has already been certified to 569t MTOW. The new testing will improve takeoff weights for conditions that are brake energy limited.

What MTOW are you thinking the A388 will be certified to as a result of the max. brake energy test?
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
Electech6299
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:38 am

Quoting Ncelhr (Reply 58):
Actually, I only posted one message in this thread and to my knowledge, did not make many intimations that nothing went wrong.

Oops, my fault Ncelhr, reading the posts back to back I picked out the wrong username.

I agree with your assessment (tho I wasn't involved either, I'm going by logic: the Boeing passed and the A340 failed)

The one thing I have trouble with is faulting the fire crew when fire response is specifically forbidden in the test protocol. (I answered my own questions in reply 37 with the link in reply 54) So unless there was a clear command to interrupt the test due to failure, the firefighters shouldn't have had any response other than to watch 'er burn until 300 seconds. Of course when the observation area became a target for the flaming tires, I suppose they had to do something...

I really need to see the long video to see what's being complained about. From the pics and videos I've seen, there's no real reason to fault the fire crew for the catastrophic failure and carnage that ensued- that was the result of failing the test. Like I said before, when an aircraft performs this maneuver, it is understood and accepted that loss of the frame is possible.
Send not to know for whom the bell tolls...it tolls for thee
 
vnvlain
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:03 pm

Speaking of RTO...did Airbus ever get back to us on the wing load test after the modification they promised (adding 30 kg to the wings)? I'm assuming that they passed because they obtained the certification in December '06...but I can't seem to find any news about the second test (if there was one).
Farewell Aquarius. We thank you.
 
RichardPrice
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:42 pm

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 59):
I don't believe the max. energy RTO was done earlier. This is the type of test you only want to do once for each brake vendor. Certainly an RTO at high energy has been performed, but not the max. brake energy. Do you have a source that says max. brake energy RTO has already been done?

I never said the *max energy RTO* test was done, I said *this test* was done - AND AND Irtysh-Avia (Kazakhstan)">IT HAS BEEN, the aircraft has received its type certification after doing an RTO test. All this particular test does is remove restrictions.

Just because it wasnt the maximum energy possible doesnt mean a thing.

That answered the question posed.

Getting a bit picky arent you.

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 59):

This statement is also not true. The A380 has already been certified to 569t MTOW. The new testing will improve takeoff weights for conditions that are brake energy limited.

What MTOW are you thinking the A388 will be certified to as a result of the max. brake energy test?

Ok, I will rephrase - this test will lift restrictions placed on the MTOW. There, happy?

Quoting Vnvlain (Reply 61):
Speaking of RTO...did Airbus ever get back to us on the wing load test after the modification they promised (adding 30 kg to the wings)? I'm assuming that they passed because they obtained the certification in December '06...but I can't seem to find any news about the second test (if there was one).

There was no second test, the wing was certified by analysis.
 
soundtrack
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:59 pm

WHAT DAY - NO MENTION ANYWHERE??

Anybody know or is this a secret - I heard it might also be next week!
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:32 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 62):
Just because it wasnt the maximum energy possible doesnt mean a thing.

Sorry, but it means a lot of things. Until the max. brake energy is reached, the full capability of the brakes to adsorb energy has not been validated and the effects of brake heat load on the wheels and tires have not been demonstrated.

To draw an analogy, the prior RTO tests were like taking the wing load test to 90% of the ultimate load. You wouldn't expect the wing to break. When you take the brakes to their max. energy level or break the wing to demonstrate ultimate load capability, you are showing the true capabilities of the design. If the max. brake energy test were not done, a lot of A380 customers would be unhappy with the payload-range capability of the airplane from Duabi on a 42 C day or from JNB on a 30 C day.

This isn't being picky, it's making sure that the importance of the max. brake energy test and its effects are recognized.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
RichardPrice
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:06 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 64):

Sorry, but it means a lot of things. Until the max. brake energy is reached, the full capability of the brakes to adsorb energy has not been validated and the effects of brake heat load on the wheels and tires have not been demonstrated.

These tests never validate the ultimate limitations of the braking systems, theres always an artificial limit defined, ie 'maximum energy' - its the maximum energy levels the brakes are then certified to, not the ultimate maximum the brake system can handle. The previous test set that maximum at a certain level, this test will take it further.

The test they have carried out placed that limit lower than they intended to finally do it at, and the test they will carry out soon places the limit a little higher. The use of the wing test as an analogy is false, because this is a non destructive test - its not meant to destroy the article in question, just prove that the system is capable of going to the level the company wants it to go to.

This test will not take the brakes to their ultimate maximum, only to a level predetermined by Airbus.
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:15 am

Quoting Soundtrack (Reply 63):
WHAT DAY - NO MENTION ANYWHERE??

Maybe they don't want people to watch their Keystone Cops fire brigade in action.  Smile

Mark
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:24 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 65):
This test will not take the brakes to their ultimate maximum, only to a level predetermined by Airbus.

I have to disagree with you. Max brake energy (MBE) testing takes the system, ie wheels tires, and brakes, to its limit.

If what you are saying is true then the brakes for the A380 are over designed and the A380 is carrying excess weight. Since only 16 of 20 main gear wheels have brakes and empty weight continues to be an issue for the A380, I doubt your statement is correct. Has Airbus said there is excess capacity in the A380 brakes?

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 65):
These tests never validate the ultimate limitations of the braking systems, theres always an artificial limit defined, ie 'maximum energy' - its the maximum energy levels the brakes are then certified to, not the ultimate maximum the brake system can handle.

How many MBE tests have you witnessed? Things usually seen during an MBE test include:

- Tire deflation due to fuse plug melting.
- Wheel deformation due to brake heat.
- Fires, large or small, due to brake material and/or leaking hydraulic fluid.
- Loss of wheel bearing integrity and potential wheel axle damage.
- Destruction of the brakes themselves due to the heat load. In the days of steel brakes, I've even seen the brakes melt and the molten material drip on the runway.

Given these circumstance, why do you think that the brakes could absorb any more energy?

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 65):
The use of the wing test as an analogy is false, because this is a non destructive test - its not meant to destroy the article in question

Given the description above, how can you say the MBE test is non-destructive? It destroyies the wheels, tires, and brakes, the components that are being tested. The destructive nature of the test is why the regulations require that passing the test requires that no fire fighting be done until the airplane has been stopped for five minutes and that airplane primary structural integrity must be maintained during this time period. The analogy between the wing ultimate load test and the MBE test is correct. Both tests take the components involved to their limits.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
RichardPrice
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:35 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 67):
I have to disagree with you. Max brake energy (MBE) testing takes the system, ie wheels tires, and brakes, to its limit.

Again, I disagree with you.

The very fact that this part of the Airframe Type Certification has already been done in 2006, with the result of a valid Type Certification being issued where the parts you mention were not taken to their ultimate limit proves my point for me - the test is not designed to test the system at its ultimate maximum, just a maximum as predetermined by the airframer.

If you disagree, explain the currently issued Type Certification...

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 67):
Given these circumstance, why do you think that the brakes could absorb any more energy?

Because none of those things happen during the braking itself, and indeed those things may not indeed happen *at all* during the test. The end goal of the test is not to destroy the article, its to prove that the article can do a number of things after carrying out a braking event at a set energy level.

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 67):
Given the description above, how can you say the MBE test is non-destructive?

Again because the purpose of the test is not for those to happen, the entire system can pass perfectly well without any of those things being destroyed.
 
osiris30
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:39 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 68):
Again because the purpose of the test is not for those to happen, the entire system can pass perfectly well without any of those things being destroyed.

Richard,

Honestly if you pass that test and don't destroy/damage something you have WAY overbuilt your brake system and are carrying weight that's not needed. The sort of procedure used in these tests in a 1 in a million thing in real life. Given that, designing to just barely pass this test is the ideal goal from a weight perspective. The loading in this test is *supposed* to be the maximum energy that could ever be reasonably expected to be put on the brake system in an operational environment.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
RichardPrice
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Thu Feb 15, 2007 3:03 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 69):

Honestly if you pass that test and don't destroy/damage something you have WAY overbuilt your brake system and are carrying weight that's not needed. The sort of procedure used in these tests in a 1 in a million thing in real life. Given that, designing to just barely pass this test is the ideal goal from a weight perspective. The loading in this test is *supposed* to be the maximum energy that could ever be reasonably expected to be put on the brake system in an operational environment.

Yes, I understand that, however thats not the *point* of the test - hence why the aircraft could be type certified at the lower energy, its not the ultimate load that the certificate is interested in, but a demonstration of compliance at whatever energy load the manufacturers pick.

If that results in damage, then thats that, but its not required as part of the test and the test does not go on until there is destruction, unlike the wing ultimate load.

Thats the point at discussion, this is not an *ultimate* test, its a test to a given level, which can be anything upto and including the ultimate. And that explains the current valid type certificate which included an RTO which wasnt anywhere near ultimate.
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Thu Feb 15, 2007 3:18 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 68):
The very fact that this part of the Airframe Type Certification has already been done in 2006, with the result of a valid Type Certification being issued where the parts you mention were not taken to their ultimate limit proves my point for me - the test is not designed to test the system at its ultimate maximum, just a maximum as predetermined by the airframer.

You can certify at an energy level lower than MBE if you chose. However, if you don't show the full energy level, you're leaving airplane capability unused.

Again, you can use the wing ultimate load test as an analogy. You don't need to break the wing. You can demonstrate at a given load level and define that as the maximum airplane capability. Airbus could have loaded the A380 wing to 95% of ultimate with no breakage and certified the MTOW as 545t with no need to modify the wing. However, this wouldn't have made the customers very happy, just as some customers will be unhappy with the currently certified level of brake energy.

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 68):
Again because the purpose of the test is not for those to happen, the entire system can pass perfectly well without any of those things being destroyed.

No, the purpose of the MBE test is to demonstrate the maximum capability of the system and some of these things will happen as a result demonstrating that capability. If you don't demonstrate the maximum capability, you've wasting design effort and weight you put into the airframe.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Thu Feb 15, 2007 3:20 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 70):
Thats the point at discussion, this is not an *ultimate* test,

No, a maximum brake energy test is at the ultimate level. Testing at a lower level is a demonstrated brake energy test.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
osiris30
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Thu Feb 15, 2007 3:22 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 70):
Thats the point at discussion, this is not an *ultimate* test, its a test to a given level, which can be anything upto and including the ultimate. And that explains the current valid type certificate which included an RTO which wasnt anywhere near ultimate.

In theory, you are correct. However, in practice, as I think we all agree, to certify to anything less than the ultimate capability of the system means you are carrying weight you don't need.

To clarify the test is to certify against whatever energy level the manufacturer decides, yes. Further to that, however, is all manufacturers will choose to certify to the ultimate load of the system as that is the optimal point for weight purposes.

You're both right, just a difference between the 'letter of the law' and the 'intent of the law' as it were. I hereby award you both 2 points and call it a draw :P
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
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Stitch
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Thu Feb 15, 2007 3:57 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 72):
No, a maximum brake energy test is at the ultimate level. Testing at a lower level is a demonstrated brake energy test.

But it's an "ultimate" test in that it's what the engineer's built the system to survive, correct?

The braking system may very well fail at an energy level at or below what the engineer's calculated, and that would be bad (literally, possibly), but the engineers are not expecting that to happen because it's not the "true ultimate" test, which would be performing an RTO at an energy level calculated to exceed the system's design to see when it actually fails.
 
pygmalion
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:05 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 65):
The test they have carried out placed that limit lower than they intended to finally do it at, and the test they will carry out soon places the limit a little higher. The use of the wing test as an analogy is false, because this is a non destructive test - its not meant to destroy the article in question, just prove that the system is capable of going to the level the company wants it to go to.

The wing test need not be destructive either. McD used to test their wings to ulitmate and then use the same airframe as the fatigue test article. The only thing that makes the test destructive is failure to meet the "Ultimate load with no permanent deformation" criteria. Boeing, and Airbus too, continue the test to failure by their own choice to gain the data to prove out the Finite Element Models for future growth and derivatives. So the wing test is relevant as it is to "

Quote:
just prove that the system is capable of going to the level the company wants it to go to.

or in this case the level the FAA/EASA says its to go to.

The regs say a Max energy RTO is mandatory. You are right in that Airbus limited the max energy by reducing the usable envelope the aircraft operates in. It the same thing as doing a high pressure test for the fuselage at 1000M cabin altitude, You could do that and certify that way... but no airline would want an aircraft that couldnt fly over 6000M.

Right now the A380 is limited in operation during high hot conditions due to max brake energy limits and will be until Airbus changes the limits by doing the test at higher energy limits
 
RichardPrice
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:05 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 71):
No, the purpose of the MBE test is to demonstrate the maximum capability of the system and some of these things will happen as a result demonstrating that capability.

No, the MBE test is to demonstrate compliance with certain requirements (no danger to cabin, ability to taxi unaided for 5 minutes etc), its not designed to demonstrate the maximum capability of the system at all. If it was designed to demonstrate the maximum capability of the system, the tests would go on until it *does* fail.

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 71):
If you don't demonstrate the maximum capability, you've wasting design effort and weight you put into the airframe.

I agree with that.

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 72):
No, a maximum brake energy test is at the ultimate level. Testing at a lower level is a demonstrated brake energy test.

I think the term 'maximum energy' is being misunderstood here, its not the maximum energy that the braking system can withstand, its the maximum energy the aircraft is *certified* to withstand. Biiiig difference.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 73):
You're both right, just a difference between the 'letter of the law' and the 'intent of the law' as it were. I hereby award you both 2 points and call it a draw :P

Heh

In any case, call it what you want - after nearly a dozen posts, Im moving on  Smile

[Edited 2007-02-14 20:11:00]
 
scouseflyer
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RE: A380 RTO Test This Week At Istre

Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:48 am

So i'm guessing that this happened yet this week?

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