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multimark
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Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:39 am

After seeing several complaints on other boards about AC's E-jets having to return to frequently return to the gate, and recalling the publicity over B6's problems with theirs, I'm wondering what the overall experience with the 170 and 190 has been? Are these a/c not working out for those who have ordered them?
 
S5FA170
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:46 am

Air Canada just released a report saying how they are very satisfied with the E-Jet family of aircraft.

I have worked on the E-170 for almost two years now and can say that the operational reliability of these aircraft is just as good as any other aircraft flying out there. When they first came out they went through quite a few teething problems working bugs out of the software - but that is to be expected with a new aircraft type. Its also how the plane gained its E-180 nickname, always turning around for the gate  Wink

Within the last 9 months, to a year, however, I can only recall returning to the gate one time.

Passengers love the airplane, and the crews I know love to work on them.
Prepare doors for departure and cross-check.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:47 am

Orders seem to be rolling in... What choice do carriers have? The CR7 is a decent 70 seat option, but other than that, there's not much choice.

BTW, before one of the Brazilians flames you, São José dos Campos is definitely not the jungle.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
cancidas
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:59 am

when the -170 served my station, a six-wwek trial period, the airplane only returned to the gate once during that six week period. those airplanes were new from the factory too.
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
stirling
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:30 am

Different airplane, different century, but I remember my time in the USAF back in the early 1980s.
The B-52 had just had a major avionics overhaul, the bombing and navigation systems being converted from analog to digital.
The reason I bring this up is because for the first 12-18 months, the system wouldn't work properly to save its soul. As a young airman I have vivid recollections of the more senior fellas bemoaning the new system, some even being so bold as to say the system was such crap the retrofits would have to soon be cancelled by the Air Force.

25 years later.

Now that the bugs have been worked out, the system has more than lived up to its promise...and then some. Never would I have imagined that something as unreliable as what I spent everyday trying to troubleshoot, would still be in use so distant in the future.
New aircraft and new systems seem to always need to cut their teeth in the real world no matter how much bench testing they might receive beforehand.

Boards such as these are great for the collection of anecdotal evidence, but when it comes to hard impirical data....best look elsewhere.
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as739x
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:15 pm

Growing pains. Every airplane has them, every airline deals with it when they bring a new type in. The E-series seems to be doing just fine. As stated above, I have heard the same from AC that they are more and more pleased with the A/C.

ASLAX
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
PDPsol
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:21 pm

The E-190 appears to be operating a full mission capabilities accross all major carriers. B6 introduced its first of the type less than 18 months ago and, while experiencing some issues and glitches initially, the aircraft appears to be performing just fine now, with good mission completion and reliability.

AC, another new user, also appears to be quite happy with the introduction of the E-190 and, earlier, the E-175. I have flown on B6's E90 and AC's E75 and loved the experience. Great passenger comfort and a very sleek aircraft. Embraer has 'hit the nail on the head' with their wonderful and innovative line of E-jets.
 
legacy135
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:24 pm

Please don't call these fine aircraft Jungle Jets or Junk Jets. It doesn't make sense. Going somewhat deeper in the story, you may find out that the place they are built, called São José dos Campos is about as much jungle as Toronto is Labrador. They are actually located a good hour by car from São Paulo, which is one large area, counting as much as 18 Millions people, depending what you count with and what not. If you bring Brazil in relation with the jungle, you need to go quite a bit up to Amazonias, where indeed you won't find an aircraft manufacturer as Embraer.

Sure, the planes made problems when they first came out. It is an easy to bring a worse example, as problems can always be excused by something even worse. But this doesn't help that there were problems, this is just a fact. Main-problems with Embraers are often found on the side of electrics and electronics. They can most of the time be solved relatively simple, the same way you do it on your computer, by powering everything down and up again. Still, this is annoying if you need to go for the so called "Cold Start" as it is time consuming. But Embraer is aware and doing a great job in solving it.

Finally those birds are far away from being built in Brazil alone. Components are coming as on any modern plane, from the whole world. So comes for example the entire wing section of the ERJ's from Gamesa in Spain. The electronics is mostly US - American.
Embraer does have an excellent reputation for their craftsmanship. Those planes are built in an excellent manner and hardly nowhere filler is applied. This gives and excellent empty weight. Planes are delivered close to perfection and the support is good - and if sometimes not perfect - they are open to listen and do everything to satisfy the customer. Embraer's VP Executive Airplanes once told me: " Our goal is not only building airplanes, we would like to build long-term business relations:" This I only can confirm, this is what Embraer is doing.

So my question, where is here either the Jungle or the Junk ?

Cheers
Legacy135 Wink
 
PDPsol
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:21 am

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 7):
So my question, where is here either the Jungle or the Junk ?

Exactly my earlier point. It's ridiculous to label ERJ's and the E-jets as "jungle jets"; they are built hundreds of kilometers away from the Amazon jungle in a world-class facility in the State of Sao Paolo.

I mentioned in another thread regarding the SSJ project that Embraer has invested countless resources over the past three DECADES to develop its marketing network and reputation among the world's leading carriers. This powerful franchise cannot be replicated overnight by others and is the product of long-term planning by Embraer's management team.

To refer to the E-jets as "junk jets" reflects a suprising degree of poor judgement.
 
RICARIZA
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:46 am

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 7):
Please don't call these fine aircraft Jungle Jets or Junk Jets. It doesn't make sense.

I agree to that. These are fine airplanes that do not deserve either name. "Brazilian Craftsmanship" I will say instead  Wink

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 2):
São José dos Campos is definitely not the jungle



Certainly not:





I miss ACES, I am proud of AVIANCA & I am loyal to AMERICAN
 
Someone83
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:03 am

They can't be less reliable than SAS's Q400.....thats for sure
 
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rikkus67
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:35 am

Multimark...

Wow...I wasn't expecting such a strong opinion about the E-jets! As you have read from the previous posts, the relaibility has greatly improved since it's introduction. Pax and crews alike seem to enjoy the added comfort of these scaled-up regionals, and to be quite honest....we up here in the Great White North don't have an exact competitive product.

Although I would like to ride on a C-series over an E-Jet, I have to admire Brazil for taking the risk, and developing a product that has done very well so far.

If and when the C series is finally brought to fruition, perhaps we can again debate over whether it is "Canuck Junk" or Canuck Clinkers"...
AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
 
sebring
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:50 am

The most up to date info I have out of AC - and it is recent - is that there have been issues with the E-190s that fall into two main categories - teething problems related to software and some design matters, and icing. We're having a particularly cold winter right now in parts of Canada. The various teething problems are being dealt with through a small mod program underway at AC's Calgary base. Embraer techs are supporting it and possibly paying for it. I can't say if the mods are being incorporated on the assembly line, or are all retrofits. As for the cold weather, this has spawned a number of experiments with how to handle the planes when cold to prevent freezeups and to get them going from a cold start. A number of workarounds are being tried that will become part of standard operating procedure for the line maintenance people. This very same thing happened with the CRJ-100s when they were introduced a dozen years ago, and the techs came up with some innovative ideas to keep the birds in ready state over night or get them warmed up in the morning.

Overall, AC loves the E-Jets and is not having second thoughts. The planes have exceeded expectations in their ability to handle long-haul, thin density routes. Their trip cost is 18% lower than that of an A319 (under AC's cost structure), so when the load is, say, 90 passengers, AC's operating margin for that flight improves 18%
 
MD80Nut
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:59 am

I recently had my first flight on an Embraer 170 with United Express (Shuttle America) and let me tell you, it's an outstanding airplane from this passenger's point of view. Seats as wide as any I've experienced in coach, the terrific 2 x 2 seating and it's smooth flying make it as comfortable as I've ever been flying in the back of the bus. Compared to other "regional" jets like the CRJ-100/200/700, F100, F28 and E-145 that I've flown, the 170 is far and away the most comfortable regional jet I've flown. No contest. If this is a 'jungle jet", give me more!

Since we had to wait on the ground at O'Hare for a couple of hours to get the plane de-iced, I got to talk to one of the flight attendants and being an aviation nut, I asked her how she and her co-workers liked the 170. She said after a few early teething problems, the 170 has become very dependable. She said passengers commented frequently on how nice the planes were, especially the comfortable seats, the 2 x 2 arrangement and the overall smoothness of the ride.

I look forward to my next flight on an E-Jet. Along with the Mighty Mad Dog Twins and the A320 Family, the Embraer 170 is one of my favorite commercial jets.

Cheers, Ralph
Fly Douglas Jets DC-8 / DC-9 / DC-10 / MD80 / MD11 / MD90 / 717
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:02 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 2):
BTW, before one of the Brazilians flames you, São José dos Campos is definitely not the jungle.

I think it's not necessary, but i would say the thread title is a little "unpolite" and seems to be non-sense as the product is really good.

The best answer are in the comments above about customers and operators impression.

Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 11):
Although I would like to ride on a C-series over an E-Jet, I have to admire Brazil for taking the risk, and developing a product that has done very well so far.

Agree 100%.

Quoting Multimark (Thread starter):
After seeing several complaints on other boards about AC's E-jets having to return to frequently return to the gate, and recalling the publicity over B6's problems with theirs, I'm wondering what the overall experience with the 170 and 190 has been? Are these a/c not working out for those who have ordered them?

If an airline buys a new bird like the E-Jets, for sure they expect minor problems and the huge support of the manufacturer and their partners. No one in the entire earth will sell a new product without a correct, fast and strong support operation. And Embraer keep service centers in many places, and never left any customer without a quick answer. We could expect minor problems on A350, A380 and 787 during the first months, and probably Airbus and
Boeing will be able to correct them very quick.
Probably this is one of the reasons they get some new operators all times, they are a reliable manufacturer with a serious product, made in a facility that could be located in Canada, United States, Germany, or any other top
country. And also it's made by people very proud about their capacity to produce high quality jets that Definitively are not junk.

Felipe
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N766UA
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:49 am

Here at Delta the Shuttle E-170s have definately worked most of the bugs out. At first they delayed or cxld alot because of computer issues, mostly, but they've been very reliable lately. I still hate their bins with a passion, though...
 
hardiwv
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:49 am

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 8):
Exactly my earlier point. It's ridiculous to label ERJ's and the E-jets as "jungle jets"; they are built hundreds of kilometers away from the Amazon jungle in a world-class facility in the State of Sao Paolo.



Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 8):
To refer to the E-jets as "junk jets" reflects a suprising degree of poor judgement.



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 14):
I think it's not necessary, but i would say the thread title is a little "unpolite" and seems to be non-sense as the product is really good.

Agree 100% to all of the above.

Honestly, when I first saw this threat I thought it was complete nonsense, or ridiculous.

Most certainly the person who wrote this thread is living himself in the jungle or in the stone-ages and still has to come to grips that Embraer is a top world company, with a cutting edge product and technology.

I think some people have to at least do some basic search about what they write to avoid being considered stupid.

Rgs,
 
multimark
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:54 am

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 8):
To refer to the E-jets as "junk jets" reflects a suprising degree of poor judgement.

Every thread title is meant to provoke discussion. An aircraft doesn't earn the nickname E-180 without reason.

Your response indicates a surprising lack of humour.
 
stirling
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:06 am

Quoting RICARIZA (Reply 9):
Certainly not:

Aha! Caught you!
I see some trees in those photos! The Jungle myth must be true!

 Wink
Delete this User
 
BrianDromey
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:11 am

Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 11):
Pax and crews alike seem to enjoy the added comfort of these scaled-up regionals, and to be quite honest....we up here in the Great White North don't have an exact competitive product.

Scaled-up regionals? I think Embraer would prefer if you called them "Scaled Down Mainline"  biggrin  In fact with US the 190 does operate under mainline.

In case anyone was in any doubt, the E-jets are far from junk. They serve their mission profile exceptionally well and are very cost effective.

As regards the initial "teething" troubles, its pretty standard for any new application to need a bit of refinement in teh real world, no matter how comprehensive the teating. No amount of lab testing can equate what will happen when a customer gets their hands on a product and proceeds to use it. Boeing 744s and 777 were "hanger queens" on thier introduction AFAIK. The A320 also had its fair share of problems, neither was the 346 immune either. The major thing here is that it was softwware probems, and these happen. I wonder how many Windows Vista users are experiencing glitches at the minute?
 
PPVRA
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:39 am

I don't see anyone calling the E-jets "E-180." Some people have jokingly referred to them as that due to the teething issues, but I can probably count in one of my hands how many times I've heard it, and that should also be part of the past now as it seems most of the issues have been resolved.

[Edited 2007-02-13 21:48:20]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
incitatus
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:44 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 16):
Honestly, when I first saw this threat I thought it was complete nonsense, or ridiculous.

Well, at some point the fading commercial aircraft business of Bombardier will disappear, and Canadians will come to accept it. Then sour grape threads started by Canadians about Embraer's fast selling products will stop. How about that for sense of humor?  Wink
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
PDPsol
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:03 am

Quoting Multimark (Reply 17):
An aircraft doesn't earn the nickname E-180 without reason.

Anyone caring to investigate the EIS record of the E-jet line would realize these aircraft are anything but "junk jets". Indeed, comparing the E-jets to any recent programs, 777, 346, even CRJ, etc., reflects favorably on Embraer's world-class ability to work with its customers to ensure excellent performance. The E-190 was introduced less than 18 months ago by B6, is winning order-after-order, and has a who's-who list of satisfied customers, including AC, CM and, now US.

Quoting Multimark (Reply 17):
Your response indicates a surprising lack of humour

I have never been accused of lacking a sense of humor. If anything, asking whether the E-jets are "junk jets" indicates a lack of research on your behalf to investigate the true EIS performance of the series.
 
planemaker
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:04 am

Quoting Multimark (Reply 17):
Every thread title is meant to provoke discussion.

But what is the point of a thread title that is asking if the E-jets are Jungle Jets or a Junk jets? Both are pejorative terms that bear no semblance to reality, as others have abundently pointed out. Furthermore, the thread title is misleading and has nothing to do with your question in your post... so if you really wanted to know if the E-jets had gotten over their initial teething issues... why not ask so in the thread title?
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
cftoa
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:04 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 2):
Orders seem to be rolling in... What choice do carriers have? The CR7 is a decent 70 seat option, but other than that, there's not much choice.

Let us not forget the 705 and 900 series.

Quoting Multimark (Thread starter):
After seeing several complaints on other boards about AC's E-jets having to return to frequently return to the gate, and recalling the publicity over B6's problems with theirs, I'm wondering what the overall experience with the 170 and 190 has been? Are these a/c not working out for those who have ordered them?

Embraer's regional jets are probably some of the most ergonomic and cost effective regional equipment on the market today. Not only do they appeal to carriers, but also to the passengers who fly them, as they are very comfortable. I have flown on AC's 175's many times, and would glady do it again.

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 7):
Please don't call these fine aircraft Jungle Jets or Junk Jets. It doesn't make sense.



Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 11):
If and when the C series is finally brought to fruition, perhaps we can again debate over whether it is "Canuck Junk" or Canuck Clinkers"...

Calling these great aircraft things like this is very stereotypical. Embraer has come a very long way from when they first started production. I am very happy that Brazil is now thriving in the aircraft industry. Embraer's products are very practical and reliable, and I hope that they become even more successful then they are now. Calling Bombardier's aircraft 'Canuck Clinkers' is just as bad as saying 'Jungle Jet' or 'Junk Jet'. How can you criticize the aircraft that make up the back bone of many carriers today? Have you yourself ever been on an E-Jet? Let us not insult great companies like these, but rather discuss why they are where they are today.  Smile

Cheers.
 
DashTrash
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:49 am

From a pilot perspective, almost every aircraft out there has a nickname. JungleBus is what I prefer to call the 170 / 190 family. BrasiliaJet to the 145 series.

Started calling the Dash 8 several new names lately.....

72 has always been the Jurassic Jet.

It's not derogetory, just something to break up the monotony.
 
positiverate
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:51 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 16):
Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 8):
Exactly my earlier point. It's ridiculous to label ERJ's and the E-jets as "jungle jets"; they are built hundreds of kilometers away from the Amazon jungle in a world-class facility in the State of Sao Paolo.



Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 8):
To refer to the E-jets as "junk jets" reflects a suprising degree of poor judgement.



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 14):
I think it's not necessary, but i would say the thread title is a little "unpolite" and seems to be non-sense as the product is really good.

Agree 100% to all of the above.

Honestly, when I first saw this threat I thought it was complete nonsense, or ridiculous.

Most certainly the person who wrote this thread is living himself in the jungle or in the stone-ages and still has to come to grips that Embraer is a top world company, with a cutting edge product and technology.

I think some people have to at least do some basic search about what they write to avoid being considered stupid.

Rgs,

Everyone relax...

The nickname is NOT intended to disparage the people of Brazil. Airplanes have nicknames. It's a fact of aviation. By your rationale, we should no longer call MD-88's "Mad Dogs".
 
FCFONTESTORRES
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:53 am

An amazing and very confortable aircraft to fly!! PGA- Portugália Airlines ( PORTUGAL)is considering to acquire few of them! Besides that it is a beautiful aircraft!!!

Cheers,

Fernando Fontes Torres
 
TACAA320
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:54 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 18):

Aha! Caught you!
I see some trees in those photos! The Jungle myth must be true!

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
10Driver
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:21 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 4):
New aircraft and new systems seem to always need to cut their teeth in the real world no matter how much bench testing they might receive beforehand.

Well said Stirling! Most new jets suffer from troubles when they're first introduced, and I haven't heard any real high-profile problems from the 170/190 series. Having flown the mighty KC-10 in the USAF for over 2,000 hrs, I rarely had any problems that kept us from the mission, but it breaks my heart that the -10 had a few high-profile incidents in it's early life that it never really recovered from in the commercial world. It's a marvelously capable and reliable airplane, and I'd hate to see the same thing happen to any other model.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 25):
72 has always been the Jurassic Jet.

I always heard the DC-9s referred to as "Jurrasic Jets". I think we all say those sorts of things with some affection for whichever plane we're referring to, and for their place in history.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:24 am

And don't forget the B747 had major teething troubles for a year or so after it went into service in 1970, with many flights suffering long delays and cancellations, mainly due to problems with the early P&W JT9D engines, but also problems involving other systems. I recall the electronics that controlled reading lights, passenger call buttons, audio/video system etc. also had frequent early problems with reading lights often flashing on and off all by themselves randomly throughout the cabin etc.

Even Pan Am's inaugural 747 flight JFK-LHR on January 21, 1970 was delayed a few hours and required a last minute aircraft substitution. The pressure to get the 747 into service less than a year after it's first flight was unrealistic considering the major change in technology.

Almost all products, aircraft and otherwise, have at least a few introductory problems. Testing just can't duplicate real-world experience under all conditions.
 
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rikkus67
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:50 am

Quoting CFTOA (Reply 24):
Calling these great aircraft things like this is very stereotypical.

C-FTOA... My comment was meant in jest, and nothing more... ashamed 

I agree that would should marvel at each milestone and triumph, wherever the item is produced! And as reiterated throughout this thread... all aircraft to some extent have their collective teething pains...
AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
 
cftoa
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:08 am

Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 31):
C-FTOA... My comment was meant in jest, and nothing more...

I agree that would should marvel at each milestone and triumph, wherever the item is produced! And as reiterated throughout this thread... all aircraft to some extent have their collective teething pains...

I know, Rikkus67. I was in fact using your quote, to quote Multimark, because what you said is very true, and I do agree with you.. the thing I found rather un-true, was the 'Junk Jet' comment in the thread topic, as they are great aircraft. I did also hear about the trouble AC was having with the E-Jets. A family friend of mine is an F/O on the 175. I still believe that Embraer has went a long way, and I respect them as a manufacturer. Also, please know that in no way did I mean to insult you, I was just raising the point on how funny A/C nicknames can be sometimes (IE: Canuck Clinkers  Silly ).
To some it up, I just don't think 'Junk Jet' is a name suitible for an Embraer aircraft, wheras Canuck Clinker or Mad dog is all in good fun.

No had feelings my friend  Smile

Cheers.
 
steeler83
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:35 am

I flew on E-170 jets in December, and I will be back on one next month on the 10th with my girlfriend beside me. I had a great time on those flights. The overhead stowbins are a bit small, but what would you expect from a regional jet really? Hey, it got me from point A to B without any mishap and that's all that really matters, right?
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:39 am

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 7):
Please don't call these fine aircraft Jungle Jets



Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 8):
It's ridiculous to label ERJ's and the E-jets as "jungle jets"

Believe or not, first time I've heard the Jungle Jet nickname from an AC captain. It is certainly less offensive than some 737 nicknames. I have to confess, I like it.

As far as the aircraft itself is concerned, I can only judge the E90 from passenger's view. It's a fantastic ride (in AC's configuration) in both classes.
310, 319, 320, 321, 321N, 332, 333, 343, 345, 346, 732, 735, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 753, 762, 763, 77L, 77W, 788, AT4, AT7, BEH, C402, CR2, CRA, CR9, DH1, DH3, DH4, E45, E75, E90, E95, F28, F50, F100, MD82, Saab 340, YAK40
 
aces727
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:56 am

I will defenitively say that I admire Embraer for their worldwide sucess, Embraer is spread all over the world now, and passengers in generally enjoy flying on the small Brazilian jets. My Pilot friend who used to fly with Copa in Panama is now flying for Paramount in India and says how much Indians love to fly on the new jets. Brazil has one of the biggest jungles in the world, contrasting with also some of the biggest and most exotic cities in the world so if the author of this thread called the E jets jungle jets, let him be happy, jungles combined with exotic cities make a much better combination than frozen land with a 2 big cities.
 
adizzy
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 11:02 am

I have flown B6's EMBRAER 190's many time over the past few week months and i have got to say...I LOVE THEM!
Very comfortable...very wide seats....almost feels like business class!
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 11:13 am

Quoting CFTOA (Reply 24):
Let us not forget the 705 and 900 series.



Quoting CFTOA (Reply 24):

Embraer's regional jets are probably some of the most ergonomic and cost effective regional equipment on the market today. Not only do they appeal to carriers, but also to the passengers who fly them, as they are very comfortable. I have flown on AC's 175's many times, and would glady do it again.

That's what I was talking about. The CR7 does enjoy superior economics to the 170. The CR9 (or 705) not so much.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
multimark
Topic Author
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 11:44 am

It never ceases to amaze me how thin-skinned some people are here. One would think I'd said your mother wears army boots. I don't take the phrase jungle-jet to be an insult, any more than "mad dogs" is to the great aircraft from McDonnell Douglas. As to everyone at AC being happy with the Embraer, I came across this on another website:

" Who is he talking to?? Yes the cusomers do love it. Until they take a flight in which their baggage cannot be loaded because the cargo hold is not usable!
Until the bathroom is not usable with 1 hr to go in flight! Until the water runs out.
As for employees loving it. HMMMMM we should ask the guys who load the plane how much they love it. We should ask the Flight Attendant who had their elbow broken by the aft lav door how much they love it. "
 
cftoa
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 11:51 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 37):
That's what I was talking about. The CR7 does enjoy superior economics to the 170. The CR9 (or 705) not so much.

In comparison to the ERJ-170, the CRJ-700 is closest by statistics. Range and ergonimics wise, the CRJ-705 is superior.
There is a whole lot of leg room on those things, and you dont break your neck trying to shoot pictures out the window  Silly
The 705 is basically a 900 series with an extra exit, another fuel tank, and less seats. I hate the 900 for the fact that you can barely breath when it is fully loaded. But yes, as you have said, the CRJ-700 is superior to the 170 economically.. thus why the CRJ program is the best selling RJ in the world, and 7th best commercial aircraft in the world.

Cheers.
 
LawnDart
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 11:56 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 12):
Their trip cost is 18% lower than that of an A319 (under AC's cost structure), so when the load is, say, 90 passengers, AC's operating margin for that flight improves 18%

According to Air Canada's website, the E190 has a 93-seat capacity. They better have some great operating margins with 90 passengers!  Wink.

You point out that the trip cost is 18% lower than the A319, which has a 120 seat capacity...29% greater capacity. The real measurement should be the cost per available seat mile, as my Piper Cherokee has a trip cost about 1,000% lower than the A319 (and it leaks oil...).

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 23):
But what is the point of a thread title that is asking if the E-jets are Jungle Jets or a Junk jets? Both are pejorative terms that bear no semblance to reality...

I wonder if the E190 took offense at the name calling?

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 34):
It is certainly less offensive than some 737 nicknames.

Like FLUF?
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:01 pm

Quoting CFTOA (Reply 39):
Range and ergonimics wise, the CRJ-705 is superior.

Yeah, but let's compare apples to oranges. Whilst the 705 may have more range than a 170, it ought to be compared to a 175, and each has a range of about 1800 nm (and I would argue that the 175 is also far more comfortable).
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:10 pm

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 40):
Like FLUF?

Bingo!
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Skywatcher
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:02 pm

Since we live in a civil aircraft duopoly world, the point that A or B is better or that EMB or BBD is better is essentially meaningless.

If either competitor dropped out of the market in either segment (RJ or mainline), there would then be a monopoly. Since the barrier to entry in even the smaller RJ market is in the order of billions of dollars, it is clearly in the best interests of airlines to keep both BBD and EMB busy competing with each other.
They keep each other honest.
 
cftoa
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:07 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 41):
Yeah, but let's compare apples to oranges. Whilst the 705 may have more range than a 170, it ought to be compared to a 175, and each has a range of about 1800 nm (and I would argue that the 175 is also far more comfortable).

Yes you are right. The 705 series was Bombardier's answer to the 175, im sure you have noticed the very similar specifications of the two. Obviously, the 175 blew the 705 out of the water in terms of orders. The cabin dimensions of the two are also very similar.. I had calculated it and I believe that the 175 won in cabin dimensions by 0.3 feet.
This makes me wonder though.. why did Air Canada buy both of these aircraft? that is like buying an A320 and a 737NG

Cheers.
 
multimark
Topic Author
Posts: 475
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:32 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 41):
Yeah, but let's compare apples to oranges. Whilst the 705 may have more range than a 170, it ought to be compared to a 175, and each has a range of about 1800 nm (and I would argue that the 175 is also far more comfortable).

But the 705 burns about, what, 10% less fuel?
 
unitedMSY
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:37 pm

It is all about how you use the aircraft. At my company, United has had us doing shorter, money making, full flights, while Delta has never made up their mind what they want with us, flying the blasted thing from JFK-AUS and vice-versa, not to mention STX. Delta flies a 170 from JFK-AUS, carriers 15 people, and then whines and cries that our planes are "not meeting their expectations". Simply stated, the 170 is a fine aircraft, much better than CRjunk and it is all about how you use the airplane.
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:59 pm

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 21):
Well, at some point the fading commercial aircraft business of Bombardier will disappear, and Canadians will come to accept it. Then sour grape threads started by Canadians about Embraer's fast selling products will stop. How about that for sense of humor?

This is already happening. 100% correct.

Rgs,
 
incitatus
Posts: 3395
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RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:25 am

Quoting Multimark (Reply 45):
But the 705 burns about, what, 10% less fuel?

If any Bombardier aircraft was remotely comparable to the Embraer 170-195 series, Air Canada would not have purchased Embraer. If Embraer wanted to build an airplane that seats 70-80 and consumes 10% less fuel than the 705, it would have made one with a narrow claustrophobic cabin and would have marketed it with a mediocre pitch.

Quoting Multimark (Reply 38):
Until they take a flight in which their baggage cannot be loaded because the cargo hold is not usable!

All airplanes have range/weight issues when operated at the edge of their performance envelope and unless Bombardier reinvented Physics, their airplanes are no different. Air Canada chose to offer its customers nonstop service on long thin routes that would not be profitable with any other aircraft, fully knowing that heavily booked departures may have mtow issues.

Quoting Skywatcher (Reply 43):
If either competitor dropped out of the market in either segment (RJ or mainline), there would then be a monopoly. Since the barrier to entry in even the smaller RJ market is in the order of billions of dollars, it is clearly in the best interests of airlines to keep both BBD and EMB busy competing with each other.

There are plenty of contenders to a share of the small commercial aircraft market. Bombardier exiting the market will only make the business case of projects from such companies more attractive. There is no "global" public interest in keeping Bombardier going. The real stakeholders are the employees and investors in the company.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
sebring
Posts: 1331
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:08 am

RE: Embraer E Series: Jungle Jets Or Junk Jets?

Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:46 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 48):

If any Bombardier aircraft was remotely comparable to the Embraer 170-195 series, Air Canada would not have purchased Embraer. If Embraer wanted to build an airplane that seats 70-80 and consumes 10% less fuel than the 705, it would have made one with a narrow claustrophobic cabin and would have marketed it with a mediocre pitch.

Pitch is up to the airline. Air Canada Jazz operates the 705 with 34" pitch which makes it a comfortable ride. I've done it.

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