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centrair
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Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:40 am

Okay...

Topics:
1) Mt. Fuji Shizuoka Airport: What the heck is going on?
2) NH and JL's routes (increase/decrease/eliminated)
3) JL's plans for regional jets
4) Anything that involves Japan domestic and international aviation.

Let's Japan Aviation!
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utapao
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:12 am

Sorry in advance as this is not as much about Japanese aviation as much as it is NRT, and to some extent KIX. I have transited both airports for years from US to BKK and was always surprised at how few services were available airside for travelers, such as restaurants. LOTS of duty free, but hardly any places to eat other than small snack shops or counters. I think the new construction in Terminal 2 will be great, and grabbed a snack in one of the new restaurants in December.

My question is: why does it seem like there are so many facilities on the non-secure side, but so little on the airside. I thought it was just NRT, but transited KIX about 8 times before AA stopped service and it seemed the same. LOTS of duty free, but little to offer as far as restaurants or bars.

During some 6 hour layovers on the return to US, I finally went through Immigration and took the regular shuttle from Terminal 2 to T1 and was blown away by the shopping/dining areas in both Terminals. Great facilities. Just wish there was more on the secure side for those in transit.

Are most airports in Japan designed the same?

Safe Travels

Utapao

ps - anyone visited the new Admirals Club in Terminal 2? I will be there later this week connecting to NRT and anxious to see it.
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centrair
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:57 am

NGO has the same problem. There is very little airside and they got tons of complaints. The airport has a lot of domestic connections and if you are transiting it is not the best. NGO is adding restaurants and now has a airside book store. In the unsecure area, NGO makes its money. It is a shopping area and event space for Tokoname and the Chita peninsula. My wife and I don't go through security until we absolutely must. My wife buys her make-up at DFS but otherwise we stay in the non-secure area as long as possible. It is more fun and has more to do.

As for NRT and KIX, I think the problem is "who is the target and majority of passengers". The answer is Japanese...its O/D. Japanese love Duty Free. (NGO's is a wasteland in my opinion.) Most likely transiting passengers makes up a smaller percent than O/D. Many years ago it was different as many flights stopped at Japanese airports. Even then it the transit area was not a great place. I remember transiting on NW's old ORD-NRT-HKG flight back in the early 1990s. I think there was a small cafe or something with limited choices.

I think Japanese airports still focus on Japanese travelers going out or people coming to Japan. The transit passenger even to domestic is left out. But I think this is changing. NGO is making changes and the new concourse at T1 of NRT is pretty darn fancy. (Haven't been there but it certainly seems nice.). KIX I think is also making a few changes. I remember going through there a few years ago. We hadn't eaten lunch and thought we would get it after security...we were very disappointed.
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centrair
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:19 pm

Press: A little old but thought I would put it up anyways.

Japan Airlines Increases Frequency on New York-Tokyo Route

Quote:
EL SEGUNDO, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Starting March 28, 2007, Japan Airlines will introduce three additional weekly flights between New York’s John F. Kennedy Airport and Tokyo’s Narita International Airport, for a total of 13 flights a week between the two cities.

The newest flights, JL007/008, provide attractive alternatives for Asia-bound travelers with morning departures from New York and evening returns from Tokyo. “Our new Friday evening departure from Tokyo is especially being welcomed by business travelers,” said Mr. Tsukasa Oka, East Coast Region Vice President and Regional Manager for Japan Airlines. “After a week of working overseas, they can still return home in time for the weekend.”

Japan Airlines’ current schedule between New York and Tokyo includes one daily nonstop, JL005/006, plus three weekly flights, JL047/048, that extend onto São Paulo, Brazil. Together with the newest flights, JL007/008, connection opportunities to and from JAL’s network throughout Japan, China and S.E. Asia are greatly expanded.

As part of their stated focus on high yield routes but has the twist of also looking beyond to transit pax and making connections work better. (Maybe this will help make changes to T2 airside.)
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
Carpethead
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:22 pm

Quoting Utapao (Reply 1):

NRT is actually, the better, for any airside faciltiies for dining. Most other airports even some the major airports have very little to non-existing dining faciltiies airside. A different story landside.
But you have to look at it this way: space is at a premium in Japan and terminal designers are faced with the prospect of locating the dining facilities airside or landside. You just can't have both unlike at Singapore Changi. It's obvious that Japanese airports weren't designed with transitting in mind.

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
1) Mt. Fuji Shizuoka Airport: What the heck is going on?
2) NH and JL's routes (increase/decrease/eliminated)
3) JL's plans for regional jets
4) Anything that involves Japan domestic and international aviation

.

1 - They are going to finish building what is going to be a waste of 2500m of runway and terminals by around 2009.
Why would JR build a train station, knowing that JR is going to lose passengers if they build it. It's a lose-lose prospect. At least somebody was smart enough to say no.

2 - Probably more eliminations than increase at both companies when they review some of the loss making regional routes. Local governments may look to subsidizing these routes to retain their services, so stay tuned.

3 - Q400 can cover most 70-seat flying within Japan. JL (group)'s fleet is varied enough and they are going to make it worse before it gets better.

4 - Vague but the two Japanese majors will be hiring pilots big time over the next few years to cover retiring pilots.
 
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centrair
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:31 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 4):
4 - Vague but the two Japanese majors will be hiring pilots big time over the next few years to cover retiring pilots.

Wonder if the unions will allow hiring of foreign pilots for mainline. We had a representative from one of the Aviation high schools come by to meet with the 3rd year teachers. He was persistant on getting his info especially to those interested in becoming pilots. I don't know of any student of mine that even has an interest in flying. (do have a few that want to be train drivers). Where they gonna find these pilots?


--------------------------------------------------------------
ATW's 33rd Annual Industry Achievement Awards 2007Airline of the Year: ANA

Good job NH!

[Edited 2007-02-13 04:35:08]
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spacecadet
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:27 pm

Quoting Utapao (Reply 1):
During some 6 hour layovers on the return to US, I finally went through Immigration and took the regular shuttle from Terminal 2 to T1 and was blown away by the shopping/dining areas in both Terminals. Great facilities. Just wish there was more on the secure side for those in transit.

I honestly never noticed this, because I'm always O/D. As Centrair said, I think that's probably mostly true of passengers at NRT.

The Japanese are used to eating bento when they travel. It's a pretty standard thing. The types of bento shops in NRT that we saw on the domestic airside at NRT last time were exactly the same as what you see in train stations in Japan as well, and even on the trains themselves. I remember buying some stuff at one of these shops on one of our previous trips right outside the gate too, so I know they're in the international gate areas also.

As you say, the shops and dining on the landside at NRT are pretty extensive. So it's not that NRT is lacking in food. The food for transiting passengers I think is just more geared towards Japanese habits in travel dining. There is certainly nothing lacking in the average bento box; in New York, you'd get served the same food in one of those boxes at a trendy restaurant and get charged $100 a plate for it. It's only if you're looking for something hot and probably something other than sushi that you're going to feel like you're out of luck.

As for bars, I wish more airports didn't have them! They have no place in an airport if you ask me (and you didn't, but that's my opinion anyway). Still, I don't think an airport bar would really do all that well among Japanese passengers. The Japanese are not shy about public drunkenness, but they don't seem to just do it at any hour of the day, and wherever they are. They make a big deal out of it. When you go to a bar, you are really going to a destination specifically to socialize, not just to down a few drinks while you wait for something else. I don't know, this is based on my personal experience, and others' mileage may vary. It just doesn't seem to me like airport bars would be particularly popular with domestic passengers. (That said, I'd be surprised if they didn't exist at all airside in at least some Japanese airports.)
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Aaron747
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:23 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 5):
Wonder if the unions will allow hiring of foreign pilots for mainline. We had a representative from one of the Aviation high schools come by to meet with the 3rd year teachers. He was persistant on getting his info especially to those interested in becoming pilots. I don't know of any student of mine that even has an interest in flying. (do have a few that want to be train drivers). Where they gonna find these pilots?

Don't know where they will find them but current interviewers are still very picky. A young friend and former student of mine was recently rejected by both NXA and JEX in the final stage of the interview process for having an MBA degree. They told him point-blank "someone who wants to be a pilot wouldn't have studied that." Idiots.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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centrair
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:08 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 7):
They told him point-blank "someone who wants to be a pilot wouldn't have studied that." Idiots.

That is just ridiculous. But think about it. It is still possible to get a fairly good job with only a high-school diploma in Japan. Pilot with an MBA...what good would that do? Pilots are pilots for life right? They never move over to management do they? They wouldn't know how to run an airline well anyway. (jodan)

---
Got a question about the next slots to be opened at NRT.

How many (I know I asked this before)?
How will they be sold? (anyone, Domestic carriers and foreign carriers evenly split)

---
Everyone has been talking about the US-China market and the DOT applications.
Where do you all think we might see expansion from/to in the next 5 years here in Japan?
What airlines might expand to/in Japan?

---
NH got the 737-700ER. There was a thread about it coming out without winglets. Is NH buying them without winglets and having them installed in Japan?

---
Why do Japanese travel agencies and airlines only allow booking from 3 months before departure? I am trying to do research for flying NGO-YUL. I have to have prices for flights starting August 1st all the way through to October 31st. (departing on a Wednesday and returning a week later on a Friday) Only UA, NW, AA and AC can give me rates and good connections. (AF was actually cheaper but I was not interested in flying 30 hours). I know that JTB, HIS and the other agencies can give lower prices. But why don't NH and JL have anything out 9 months like their US counterparts?

[Edited 2007-02-13 08:20:09]
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Carpethead
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:29 am

Quoting Centrair (Reply 8):
NH got the 737-700ER. There was a thread about it coming out without winglets. Is NH buying them without winglets and having them installed in Japan?

They are going to be fitted with winglets, it's just that Boeing doesn't do them. Probably somebody state-side can give more accurate info.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 8):
Got a question about the next slots to be opened at NRT.

Availability is limited but there are some. These are for the shorter runway though.


It is highly likely Japan will see more service from China, but growth will be limited to non-NRT airports.
The new Japan-India aviation pact will probably see increased service from Air India and possible new service by Jet Airways, as they are the only other Indian carrier with medium/long-haul aircraft.
 
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centrair
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:44 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 9):
It is highly likely Japan will see more service from China, but growth will be limited to non-NRT airports.

In a related note...

Air China to launch Beijing-Sapporo route on April 18

Quote:
ir China said it will open a new non-stop service between its hub in Beijing and the northern Japanese city of Sapporo on April 18.
Sapporo will be the Chinese flag carrier's seventh destination in Japan.
Air China said in a statement that the new route will be a twice weekly service.
Air China has a code-share agreement with Japan's All Nippon Airways on routes between the two countries.

----

Also interesting and I didn't see it on A.net.
THAI international is going to do all of NH's 744 heavy maintainance.

THAI to maintain All Nippon's jumbos

Quote:
Thai Airways International and All Nippon Airways last week signed an agreement for THAI to conduct "heavy maintenance" on ANA's Boeing 747-400 aircraft.
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
Carpethead
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:51 pm

To add more news.

NH Cargo is going to contract ABX for additional Asia cargo hauling. Two 767-200SFs are involved and will fly primarily Japan-China runs but there is a KIX-BKK which has to stretch the legs on these birds. Many locals are excited to see the old NH 762 birds back in Japan. (this news has been mentioned on previous threads).

JL Cargo will retire 5 747-200Fs while adding three 767-346ERFs & three 747-446BCFs. More frequencies on the Japan-China runs will be added and some 742F route will downsize to 763F. There will be some route changes to SE Asia as well.

The next round of Japan-China aviation negotiations will probably result in HND-SHA flights. It will probably be similar to the start for the HND-GMP with each country allowed two flights. NH & JL being awarded one each with Chinese carriers probably being a toss-up but MU & FM probably have the inside track if it does happen.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 8):
Why do Japanese travel agencies and airlines only allow booking from 3 months before departure?

To be frank, nobody in Japan probably plans something nine months in advance. I nor any of my relatives plan that far ahead.
 
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centrair
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:57 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 11):
The next round of Japan-China aviation negotiations will probably result in HND-SHA flights. It will probably be similar to the start for the HND-GMP with each country allowed two flights. NH & JL being awarded one each with Chinese carriers probably being a toss-up but MU & FM probably have the inside track if it does happen.

This will be a nice addition to the HND. I wonder if they will negoiate at some time for maybe flights to PEK or CAN. Unlike Korea where the business choices could give you just one other destination, the business travel from Tokyo to China might be enough to warrent many more flights to more destinations.

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 11):
To be frank, nobody in Japan probably plans something nine months in advance.

This is a real hinderance on any international programming for me. I suppose to give a detailed chart to help choose a departure. NOPE. HIS gave me a general price based on 2006 prices for Obon, after obon, September and October. They said, "for departures close to long weekends, add 10,000 yen."

I had for mid October departure
NW ¥190,000 (via DTW)
AA ¥164,000 (via NRT/ORD)
UA ¥163,000 (via SFO)
AC ¥109,000 (Via NRT/YYZ)

When I asked about last year I was given.
NW ¥80,000 (DTW)
AA ¥60,000 (via NRT/ORD)
UA ¥60,000 (via SFO)
AC ¥120,000 (via NRT/YYZ)

That is a huge difference and it is making my job very difficult. So I complain and shake my fist. NANDE!!!!!! NADEDARO!!!!!
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:17 pm

Anybody know when the next 747LCF flight will be into NGO?
 
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:20 pm

Anyone know when DL switches terminals at NRT?
 
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centrair
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:29 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 13):
Anybody know when the next 747LCF flight will be into NGO?

It is just finishing its testing and should be back I would think in March. Maybe Beech19 or one of the other Boeing folks know. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE876

You thinking of making a trip up to NGO to see it?

Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 14):
Anyone know when DL switches terminals at NRT?

Pretty soon I think. With AA and some other OneWorlders moving over to T2, DL and I think CO make the move over to T1. Basically they will be switching places.

I am wondering if DL will launch LAX routes to Japan in the next few years. Do what they did on the Atlantic with the Pacific. Would love to see them back at NGO. It won't be the same but we can be choosy. (I miss the MD11s.)
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centrair
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:52 pm

Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 14):

You wouldn't happen to know what might be up DL's sleeves for LAX?
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centrair
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:03 pm

Kind of off but related topic...
Just sent a bunch of people a message about maybe doing an A.net Meet here in Japan.

Anyone interested?
Not sure how to organize one or anything, but might be fun.

I mentioned NGO or NRT in the message mainly because that is where there are a few A.netters who might be able to help organize it.

Any one interested?
NGO or NRT?
Tell us why?

NGO = Great observation deck, easy access, both domestic and international connections, inexpensive hotels on the island and in Tokoname. Nagoya is only 20 min away with great pubs and izakayas. Nothing like taking an onsen while watching planes land and take-off. LCF, Volga aircraft and NH 737-700ER.

NRT = Connections to the world, more hotel choices, wide variety of aircraft, and its in Tokyo...lots of places to go and hang out.

Any Japan A.netter been to a meet?
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centrair
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:15 pm

Major International Expansion for China Southern Airlines

CZ will be starting CAN-Sendai and CAN-CTS this year. Anyone know what aircraft and frequency?
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DL WIDGET HEAD
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:32 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 17):
Any one interested?
NGO or NRT?
Tell us why?

I'm interested in either location for the reasons you specified. Just let me know when and where. Sounds like a hoot!
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:37 pm

Heres one. I keep wondering why NRT is the only city in Japan served by all the airlines from LAX. I know recently JL used to do LAX-KIX, but they stopped. Yet LAX-NRT is served by many airlines (JL, NH, UA, NW, AA, and KE). This adds up to around 8 flights a day. There are very strong business ties between Los Angeles and Japan. I believe they do extend beyond Tokyo. There is also a very large Japanese population in the Los Angeles area. I think LAX could support a flight to NGO and/or KIX. Maybe not on a 744 or daily, but at least on a 777 and 4 times a week. Maybe Im wrong. I have traveled between LAX-Japan (both to NRT and KIX) many many times (thanks to the year I lived in Shibuya (central Tokyo)) and I never have seen too many empty seats.

My last trip to Japan was for the Nagoya World Expo and I had to fly to NRT and take a train. Man it would have been nice to fly straight through.
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Carpethead
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:48 pm

Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 14):
Anyone know when DL switches terminals at NRT?

This spring for sure. I like to say April 1 but it could be start of summer schedule like March 25.
CX & AA have already switched to T2 and AY will switch to T2 at about the same time CO/DL comes over to T1.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 15):
I am wondering if DL will launch LAX routes to Japan in the next few years.

DL lost its slots during the post-2001 restructuring to FX. Afternoon slots at NRT are hard to come, so the answer is probably a no until lengthening of the short runway.
Lastly, DL doesn't have the metal to do LAX-NRT. A 763 would have a tough time in the winter headwinds and would be blown out of the water by any of its competitors.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 20):

No problem filling up the back seats on LAX-KIX/NGO. The problem is filling up premium class.
Cargo would probably be OK.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 17):
Any one interested?
NGO or NRT?
Tell us why?

Either would do but NGO would be less costly for me from Hiroshima.
 
fumitani
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:54 pm

LAXdude1023 LAX-KIX has been served in the past by UA, NW, JL. They have all been pulled for the same reason. YIELD YIELD YIELD. As people from KIX area bound for LAX region, they are all tourists or even in the reverse. They occupy the cheapest seats in the market.

I've used the KIX-LAX JL flight since it started back in 94 and ended in 06 countless times, I was sad to see it go also. Things should get better and hopefully flights will come back with the 787 coming online. There should be many interesting routes opening with the new aircraft.
 
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centrair
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Thu Feb 15, 2007 6:09 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 20):
I think LAX could support a flight to NGO and/or KIX.

In an interview with JL CEO last year, he stated that one of the routes slated for after the 787-8s join the fleet is NGO-LAX. Nagoya is LA's sister city and has a lot of trade and business relations.

I think at one point there were three flights per day with DL, RG and JL. I think it was a short time right after DL change PDX-NGO to LAX-NGO. RG was the last carrier to serve LAX-NGO route. All three served with an MD-11 I think. It was MD-11 heaven back then.

A 744 is overkill for NG/KIX-LAX. Really outside of NRT, it is a route that needs something 777 or smaller.

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 21):
Either would do but NGO would be less costly for me from Hiroshima.

You would have to come by Train wouldn't you.

I was thinking that if it could be done....

NRT meet ideas
- NRT tour (with help from one of our insiders up in Tokyo)
- HND tour
- NH maintainence tour
- Spotting at T1
- Far fetched idea but something that was done at the ZRH meet....charter an aircraft to fly on a two hour flight from HND down over NGO and back. that would cost $$$

NGO meet ideas
- NGO Pax terminal tour
- NGO Cargo terminal tour
- Would be awesome to do MHI, KHI or FHI tours to see where they make aircraft parts
- Time the meet with the arrival of an LCF
- People can stay at the airport and spot 24 hours a day from their room or Parking lot 3
- Take onsen and watch planes land/take-off

NGO or NRT
Enkai! Enkai! Enkai! Enkai!

If we do NGO, I can do a little more if we do NRT, I am at a loss beyond general organization skills. I would be willing to do some major people parts, but I would need lots of help with event details. Anyone willing to help organize this, let me know off line via my email.
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
cinja
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:01 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 17):
Any one interested?
NGO or NRT?
Tell us why?

Sure, I am planning a trip to NGO on March 16 and 17 (hoping for the LCF!), and can make it to NRT any weekend I am in Tokyo.

Why? I have recently become quite enthusiastic about spotting and am now touring Japan in an attempt to see as many JA commercial planes as possible. In the last 10 days have been to FUK (Trip Report here ) and OKA for spotting and CTS for the snow festival. Still a novice at the whole thing but interested in meeting like-minded people in Japan.

FYI, my favourite spotting place is Jonanjima near HND. For those of you who like cycling in Tokyo, it is a great destination. I go almost every weekend, when they are landing on 22 it is fantastic. Have a 747 taking off directly overhead isn't so bad either.

http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~ito-nori/spot/spot_hnd2.htm for a map.

Look forward to meeting all of you.

CinJA
 
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centrair
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:10 pm

Quoting CinJA (Reply 24):

Just realized you are pretty new to A.net...40 some days. Hey yokoso.

Seems like you have already been to more places that I have in Japan.

Quoting CinJA (Reply 24):
Sure, I am planning a trip to NGO on March 16 and 17 (hoping for the LCF!)

Makes me wonder.

Anyone know when it will be coming back? I know it has been doing some tests at Edwards or something like that. It is almost finished and will go in for paint. I don't know the Boeing number for the second one. Anyone have that one? I hope it makes a visit here.

The thing is the LCF has not yet made a trip to Italy to pick up the Alenia pieces. I believe there are some more Japan pieces getting ready now. Wasn't boeing supposed to have parts for several planes around by March? 787 first flight is in April or May isn't it?
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
pzurita1
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Thu Feb 15, 2007 11:43 pm

Does anyone know how AM is doing in their 2weekly service NRT-TIJ-MEX?
I have read they pretend to increase it to 4 weekly as soon as more a/c are available.

However, I have no idea if this flight has received any promotion in Japan of ir JL has say something about it.

PZ
Next flight: IAH-DBX-MRU-ANT
 
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:10 am

Quoting Fumitani (Reply 22):
LAXdude1023 LAX-KIX has been served in the past by UA, NW, JL. They have all been pulled for the same reason. YIELD YIELD YIELD. As people from KIX area bound for LAX region, they are all tourists or even in the reverse. They occupy the cheapest seats in the market.



Quoting Carpethead (Reply 21):
No problem filling up the back seats on LAX-KIX/NGO. The problem is filling up premium class.
Cargo would probably be OK.

Ok, I can believe that. I keep forgeting that the premium passengers are a big key to making the route profitable. I never flew anything but economy on LAX-KIX, but it was always full. SFO and DTW seem to be able to pull off daily 777's and 747's respectively to both NGO and KIX, however both DFW and ORD both had routes to KIX and they were both axed. Why can one airline make routes work and another cant, I dont know. I find it crazy that DTW can support both KIX and NGO but ORD cant. Same with SFO and LAX. But I guess SFO relies mainly on feed, whereas LAX is mainly O&D.

All this being said, I still think LAX could support at least one of the two (KIX or NGO) at least 4 times a week with a 777 or 787.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
Carpethead
Posts: 2619
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:51 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 27):

UA's SFO-KIX & NW's DTW-NGO/KIX have been around for years even when they were at Osaka Itami & Nagoya Komaki airports. UA's KIX-ORD & AA's KIX-DFW & NGO-ORD were new kids on the block that didn't fit it. The lone exception is UA's KIX-LAX service that started after KIX opened but axed in 2000. Suffice to say the overall number of tourist visiting the US from Japan is down since 2001 and it is reflected in the number of available flights.

Quoting Pzurita1 (Reply 26):
Does anyone know how AM is doing in their 2weekly service NRT-TIJ-MEX?

Apparently, the flight both ways use the shorter runways. Landings are no problem. I have no idea on the performance figures for a GE-powered 777, but there's no way a fully-laddened 777 is going to take-off on a 2,180 meter runway for a 10-hour flight. Based on that, if AM is making it work, more power to them.
 
cinja
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:55 am

RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:50 am

Quoting Centrair (Reply 25):
Just realized you are pretty new to A.net...40 some days. Hey yokoso.

Thanks Centrair. Yes, am quite new to the whole aviation enthusiast thing, but enjoying it immensely.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 25):
Seems like you have already been to more places that I have in Japan.

I live very close to HND and with Skymark (BC), AirDo (HD), and Skynet Asia (6J) all offering low cost alternatives to plenty of destinations, I can visit somewhere at least once a month if not more.

On a related note, do you think there is a chance that a LCC will begin operations out of another domestic airport such as NGO or KIX?

CinJA
 
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centrair
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:25 pm

Quoting CinJA (Reply 29):
On a related note, do you think there is a chance that a LCC will begin operations out of another domestic airport such as NGO or KIX?

hmmm.... KIX landing fees are high. Another factor is that with Kobe and Itami in the area and KIX is kind of out of town. KIX does not fit the the LCC model. I think it is the same reason you don't see LCCs at NRT.

NGO is a higher possibility than KIX but not too high. It has lower landing fees, it is only served by International carriers and the two big Japanese carriers. I think it would depend on if the LCC could offer something JL or NH can not. For example lower fares on non-stops to popular destinations.

For that, the LCCs would have to start a hub at NGO and build a whole new network. Right now they base in HND (a major destination) or fly to HND. That means they have fewer stations to maintain. Just like any LCC, you start a hub away from your main hub you have to make it so it competes with the competition as well as compliments the entire network. I don't think KIX or NGO can really sustain it. The population and O&D is not enough. Just look at what JL and NH have done to their domestic routes.

Now...all that being said, last year NH stated that it is looking into establishing an LCC ala Jetstar to do domestic and low-cost international (within a distance) while NH handles mainline yield. Basically....NH takes the suits...the LCC takes that obatalians and gals. They will start this at HND and maybe out of KIX or NGO.

Would be nice to have more than two choices for traveling from NGO.
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:31 pm

Who needs more choices when we already have ANA?  Wink
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Carpethead
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:34 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 30):
I think it is the same reason you don't see LCCs at NRT.

Not exactly the same reason. NRT does not have abundance of slots, while KIX will surely have plenty of flight capacity come August this year.

The first int'l LCC service started last year with Bangkok Air starting service to Hiroshima from BKK. That's if one considers PG a LCC.
 
Luis777
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 3:16 am

RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Sat Feb 17, 2007 3:10 am

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 28):
Apparently, the flight both ways use the shorter runways. Landings are no problem. I have no idea on the performance figures for a GE-powered 777, but there's no way a fully-laddened 777 is going to take-off on a 2,180 meter runway for a 10-hour flight. Based on that, if AM is making it work, more power to them.

Boeing 777-200ER GE 90-94B Performance:

Runway 34R 2180m / 7152ft
Temperature 28°C
Wind Calm
Flaps 20
Max TOW 258,100kg

Dry Operating Weight approx.: 145,000 kg
Payload (includes 270 pax and baggage) approx: 29,000 kg
Trip Fuel NRT-TIJ wind calm (average): 72,000 kg Note: Eastbound flights are predominantly with tailwind component
Fuel reserves: 11,000 kg

Actual TOW: 257,000 kg

The Boeing 777 its a real nice plane, its awesome

Regards

LG
 
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centrair
Topic Author
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:09 am

A little update on a Japan meet.

It seems that NGO is high on lists.
But I want to have a clear vote right here in the Japan thread.

If you are interested in going to NGO, please post.
If you are interested in going to NRT, please post.
If you are interested in going to KIX, please post.
If you are interested in going to HND, please post.

Also include reason and when you think it should be.

Let's have a healthy discussion of the ups and downs of each location.

Non-Japan based A.netters interested in attending are welcome to discuss as well.

----- Vote style -----
Name: Centrair
My vote: NGO
Reason: I can work on coordinating easily. It is a new airport with some interesting traffic. There are group tours available of the inner workings and if we line it with an LCF arrival, it would be totally awesome. There are good restaurants and we could all take an Onsen...how Japanese is that.

Downside: Not as much diverse traffic as NRT or KIX. HND would have massive traffic and I have never been there. NGO has some real slow times in the middle of the day. Members from Tokyo can get there by plane from NRT or by Shinkansen. Members from Hiroshima (two of you), would have to get there by train.

When: A Saturday. Not a work day for me. Often spend weekends in Okazaki and can get to the airport quicker and easier. Summer. No School events and I have a little more time to organize. Can also call it "work related" especially if I do it under my International Relations Position.
-------------------------

What ever we choose this time would be eliminated in for any future Japan meet. Meaning. If we choose NGO this time, if we choose to have another meet in the future, we choose between other airports and NGO is not available.

-------------------------
NEWS!!!!!

JAL Introduces Wine from Japan To Business Class, Top Japanese Wines Added to First Class Wine List

First reaction....There are Top Japanese Wines?

Quote:
JAL will feature the wine throughout 2007 after receiving very positive reactions from European passengers in a two-week trial period on the Tokyo-London route in October 2006.

Clareza comes from the Katsunuma winery of the Aruga family who have a 70-year history of wine-making in the Katsunuma district in Yamanashi Prefecture, now known as Koshu City, about 100 kilometers (62.5 miles) west of Tokyo.



Quote:
These are the Aruga Branca Issehara 2006 and the Aruga Branca Pipa 2003. Differences in 'terroir' produce slight differences among the Koshu grapes from various grape-growing districts of Katsunuma. This elegant wine from the single vineyard of Issehara in the district is fruity but "off dry" with a hint of sweetness.

Way to go Yamanashi-ken. Like Yamanashi grapes and peaches. Tried Yamanashi wine and well....Not a big fan of screw-off caps on a wine bottle.
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
Carpethead
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:26 pm

Un-official news is that NH is planning to rid its 744 fleet by 2015.
Makes sense as the 744s will probably be gone by 2010 as the 773ERs arrive. Though the number of 773ERs on order aren't enough to cover all the 744 replacements, NH is not doing to fly a sub-fleet of 3 to 4 744s.

Based on the 747SR retirements, domestic 747s have had a service life of around 20 years. The oldest ones were 1992 with the newest built in 1995 so makes all the much sense. (Note: two newer 744s have been converted to 744Ds) What will replace the 744Ds will be a question that will be answered in the next few years but the key will be the timetable for the opening of the fourth runway at HND.
 
cinja
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:55 am

RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:48 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 34):
If you are interested in going to NGO, please post.
If you are interested in going to NRT, please post.
If you are interested in going to KIX, please post.
If you are interested in going to HND, please post.

Name: CinJA
My vote: NRT
Reason: Close to me and perhaps an inside tour could be arranged. Excellent observation deck as well as some off-site spotting locations that I would like to try.

Downside: Quite far from those in Hiroshima. I have spotted there before so won't see anything new.

When: Saturday or Sunday (or both - could stay at a nearby hotel and make a weekend out of it).

Having said that, I am planning my own trips to NGO and KIX this year and spend at least one weekend a month at HND, so would be happy to meet up at any of those airports.

KIX is also a short boat ride from UKB, which is very underused but still a beautiful airport, so perhaps a weekend at both could be planned.

CinJA
 
jumboforever
Posts: 180
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:37 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 34):
JAL Introduces Wine from Japan To Business Class, Top Japanese Wines Added to First Class Wine List

First reaction....There are Top Japanese Wines?

Well indeed there are some very interesting ones, with prices sometimes on par their western equivalent!
If you are interested in sparkling wines, my suggestion would be the Cuvee Yoshiko from Domaine Takeda. For me this is as close as it could be from famous Champagne or Sparkling from around the world, but still rather expensive for what it is (expect from 8'000 to 10'000JPY depending on shops and vintage).

Anyway to get back to the subject:

Name: JumboFoerever
My vote: HND (NRT still ok)
Reason: Still lots of 747 to spot. Heavy traffic. Convenient from home.

Downside: 90% of flight operated by JL or NH. Already been there often, and I would like to visit NGO one day.

When: Saturday or Sunday but can't guarantee I'll be off duty even during the weekends. Also to be considered the Mrs JumboForever Factor.

If there are some good photographer among you, I'm waiting for your advice when we meet  Smile
Regards to all,

JumboForever
 
Carpethead
Posts: 2619
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:37 pm

Vote
Name: Carpethead
Vote: 1) Any weekend; place anywhere with over 100 flights a day. With that first choice is NGO, 2) NRT, 3) FUK
 
Carpethead
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:50 pm

Japan Airlines has placed an order for 10 Embraer 170s plus 5 on option.
News posted only in Japanese on JL website.

Kind of surprised that they went with Embraers considering they already operate CRJs.
With the launch on the CRJ1000, JL could have covered the 50-100 seat segment entirely with Bombardier products. Another type added to the variety at JL. At least it won't be boring for spotters.
 
cinja
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:55 am

RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:30 pm

Link available in English now too:

http://www.jal.com/en/press/0000896/896.html

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 39):
At least it won't be boring for spotters.

Amen!

CinJA
 
Carpethead
Posts: 2619
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:29 pm

Kind of surprised that JL's order didn't include any 190s or 195s. The Q400s can cover about half of any two points in Japan.
In the end, JL may take a similar path to Finnair, as they ordered a handful of 170s and the converting the orders and options to larger 190s.
 
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centrair
Topic Author
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:43 pm

This means that Matsumoto will get what they want eh?

I heard something where they complained about not getting new service. Their runway is short.

It will be nice to have something other than MDs and 737s over on the domestic side of NGO to look at. Though the MDs won't be around much longer (sad...very sad)

-----------

Happy 2nd birthday NGO!

Far above expectations and is ahead of being in the black. Orginally estimated at 5 years, but it is now looking at 4 to 4.5 years total.

Business travel is very high with many C-class seats full.

Nice little article from Chunichi Shinbun about the "Chubu Effect".
Overseas business trip persons redoubles:Chubu international airport effect (Japanese)

And in related news... Governor Kanda of Aichi is pushing for a second runway.

Kanda pushese for 2nd runway.

[Edited 2007-02-26 05:48:16]
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
777way
Posts: 6457
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:38 am

RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:01 am

Ocean Airlines a cargo carrier from Italy plan to start Nagoya service www.oceanairlines.com
 
jimyvr
Posts: 1597
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:08 pm

RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:38 am

JAL will revert flight numbers from 4-digit to 3-digit from April on selected trunk routes to avoid confusions.

Same for ANA, but has been 3-digit on selected trunk routes
1000 - 01MAR07 | http://airlineroute.blogspot.com/
 
cinja
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:55 am

RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:27 am

Seems like the Japan meet idea has fizzled after only 4 votes. Would there be any value in creating a separate thread, or do we just not have enough local residents to make this a reality?

I am quite new here and only know a few of the regular posters based in Japan, but I am sure there are lurkers who would be interested and perhaps some from overseas who could time their visit with a meet.

Centrair, as NGO won the (limited) voting  trophy , would you consider creating an NGO meet thread? Would be interesting to see what sort of response it would receive.

CinJA
 
Carpethead
Posts: 2619
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:15 pm

RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:16 pm

Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 44):
JAL will revert flight numbers from 4-digit to 3-digit from April on selected trunk routes to avoid confusions.

Same for ANA, but has been 3-digit on selected trunk routes

NH has not really changed flight numbers over the years. The only four digit NH numbers are KIX domestic flights and flights operated by Air Nippon Network & Air Central.
JL went with the four digit idea for domestic routes, but I am sure Japanese ATC fellas loves all those JL four digit call signs.
 
jimyvr
Posts: 1597
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:08 pm

RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:19 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 46):
NH has not really changed flight numbers over the years

similar flight numbers like 509 and 569 departing from same airport will be re-numbered.
1000 - 01MAR07 | http://airlineroute.blogspot.com/
 
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centrair
Topic Author
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RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:21 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 43):
Ocean Airlines a cargo carrier from Italy plan to start Nagoya service www.oceanairlines.com

Cool! Do you know their schedule? The website still lists NGO as a future destination. Nice to see another Cargo carrier in here. We do get a lot of them.

I wonder what kind of cargo they are hauling out of here? Car parts? Computer parts? Plasma TVs?

Quoting CinJA (Reply 45):

Actually am considering making a separate thread when I have some more details. NGO has the short vote, but there are some things being worked on by another A.netter that might change the location. I think we needed to feel out what people think about a meet. I for one am up for NGO but the alternate plan being worked on might make a Japan meet the most amazing meet ever. So we are in a holding pattern for now.

I think there will be a meet no matter what. And I hope we can make them regular and rotate locations to create a "wa" of sorts between airports and A.netters.
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
cinja
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:55 am

RE: Japan Aviation 2: Tobimasho

Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:59 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 48):
I think there will be a meet no matter what. And I hope we can make them regular and rotate locations to create a "wa" of sorts between airports and A.netters.

Thanks for the update. I think regular meets in different airports is a great idea - would be quite exciting to be known at the various airports, especially HND where an inside tour would be really fascinating.

Look forward to the announcement.

CinJA

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