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osiris30
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:17 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 148):
But they'll recover... adapt... and move on. Can they change some of the bad business decisions? Yes.

Interestingly enough you have hit upon the real crux of the issue. Has B6 learned from this, or will they do the same thing next time (maybe even getting away with it, if the weather heps them out). Unfortunately we can speculate all we want, and B6 can lip service all they want, but only the next time there's a major WX incident at B6 will we know for sure.

The one thing that surprised me with this, is just how fragile B6 is operationally. That they are so close to their breaking point concerns me somewhat. I mean JFK wasn't out of comission for THAT long and it did this. What happens if there's a truly major storm in the area or heaven forbid some sort of malicious activity that shutters the airport for any length of time? Do they just fold up and say 'sorry folks try again in 7 days'?
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:27 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 148):
A company cannot lose a customer that they never had.

In a way they can. A person could be thinking about taking a trip with airline XYZ next time they want to fly. They could even be in the process of looking for fares. If airline XYZ messes up during that person's planning, that person would not fly that airline, and the airline would have figuratively lost that passenger.

FXramper said he would never fly B6 again. Grammatically, this means he has flown them in the past and has no intention of using that airline for future travels.
I love ASO!
 
apodino
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:29 am

There are regional airlines out there where all the employees are paid less than what JetBlue pays, and their operations are already recovered. For regionals to recover quicker than a Major, thats not good for the Major at all.
 
SkyyMaster
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:54 am

I'll start this post as I did another on the JFK/BOS meltdown. I'm not a fan of JetBlue. I think they are over-rated. My company policy dictates which airlines we fly depending on destination because they have made bulk purchase agreements. B6 was their choice for BNA to our northeastern offices. I flew them twice a couple of years ago prior to the policy, on my own dime, to see what the hoopla was about and wasn't impressed. But all that's another thread. I also stated, at least initially, they were getting flamed by the press more than other airlines. Now I'm not so sure it wasn't justified.

As a wise old Vulcan once said, this is not logical. You ground 23% of your fleet/flights to catch up operationally, yet you farm out getting your stranded pax to charter airlines? I get the crew repositioning issue, but how long does that take? Seems you'd want as many of your own planes, if not all flying. THEN if you feel a need to charter to get caught up, no problem. But to completely cancel 11 cities for 2-3 days (probably longer I will guess) just doesn't make any sense to me. What are they doing for the pax destined for those 11 cities? Booking them on other carriers? Making them wait untill they get the E90's back in the air then fly standby? Why only E90's? Yes, I've read all the posts on this thread, and so many varying opinions, I don't have a clue to what is even remotely close to being accurate.

All I do know is, this is going to top the NW /DTW fiasco of a few years by far. The B6 management team seems to have frozen (no pun intended) in their tracks on this one. Justified or not, they are going to lose a certain % of their business forever. I'm sure they will recover, but from a P.R. standpoint, this is a nightmare of epic proportions. It's going to take alot more than free tickets and IFE to keep their loyalty base intact. I am just grateful I didn't have a trip to BTV or PWM this past week, or I would have seen this first hand. For the record (and not that it matters or anyone would care) ,prior to this, my company revisited their travel policy. Effective June 1, we get to go back to choosing our own carriers. I would have not flown them again anyway; this just helps reiterate my justification in not doing so. I certainly do wish them luck. They are going to need it I'm afraid.
 
ltbewr
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:20 am

This recent storm was terrible for JetBlue.
Still, I would put some blame on the passangers themselves who knew the weather was going to be bad on Tuesday into Wednesday and were unrealistic in expecting normal operations. I know I wouldn't have flown on a day with the predicted weather.
Jet Blue should have been watching the weather much better, and cancelled their flights on Late Tuesday evening and into Wednesday, rather than board people and keep them hostage on non-moving a/c for many hours. But that is also part of the issues of newer LCC's, that they don't have the people of sufficent experience of running an airline or able to make decisions as stop operations due to reasonably predicted weather.
I hope it doesn't kill JetBlue as until this last week, were a darling of many flyers and posters here.
 
osiris30
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:23 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 154):
Still, I would put some blame on the passangers themselves who knew the weather was going to be bad on Tuesday into Wednesday and were unrealistic in expecting normal operations. I know I wouldn't have flown on a day with the predicted weather.

I've seen lots of people say this, but can someone explain to me how the PAX made B6's problem worse. Those planes were scheduled to fly. The PAX showed up. Perhaps B6 should have pre-cancelled like a lot of carriers do.

Futher more, how is it the fault of the PAX is they are stranded at their destination while B6 cancels flights for 3 days to 'reset the system'?

Sorry but the 'oh I would never fly in bad weather' thing is a pile of BS and had nothing to do with B6 handling this like a bunch of amateurs.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
WesternA318
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:23 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 154):
and were unrealistic in expecting normal operations

jetBlue was also expecting normal operations, and look at what ended up...
 
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mariner
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:50 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 154):
I would put some blame on the passangers themselves

That is the most depressing statement I have read in all these threads. Blame the passenegsrs?

The aircraft were scheduled to fly, the passengers were expected to be there and they were boarded on the aircraft. JetBlue expected those aircraft to fly and kept the passenegsr onboard those aircraft for unreasonable lengths of tiem in the expectation that they would fly.

Or is Mr. Neeleman wrong?:

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/TRAVEL/02/16/jetblue.congress.reut/

"I don't blame our customers for being upset with this," David Neeleman told CNBC television. "It was one of these things that just spiraled out of control"

And even if every passenger were an expert meterologist, it wouldn't have helped. Not even the NWS was sure what was happening.

Neeleman said the airline was repeatedly assured on Wednesday that the icy weather was about to clear and the planes would soon be allowed to depart. "I think we'll learn from this and we'll certainly do better in the future."

Let us hope Mr. Neeleman is right, and that they will do better.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
SkyyMaster
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:53 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 157):
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 154):
I would put some blame on the passangers themselves



Quoting Mariner (Reply 157):
That is the most depressing statement I have read in all these threads. Blame the passenegsrs?

I agree. This would be somewhat akin to someone getting killed in a car wreck, them blaming them for going out driving in the first place. No way is this the fault of the pax.
 
ContnlEliteCMH
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Mon Feb 19, 2007 12:33 pm

The CMH cancellations have made the 10PM news on WTTE. I don't watch local news but they ran an ad touting the story during the show prior to the news. If you're going to New York from CMH, you have a ton of options, but they might cost you a pretty penny at this point. And if you're connecting, well...
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
flyboy36y
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Mon Feb 19, 2007 12:49 pm

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 62):
The theory has a feel-good sound, but in the real world, when irrops occur due to an "equal opportunity" condition (such as weather) effecting all carriers, the option of interline rebooking from the effected airport(s) or region(s) on other carriers becomes nothing more than a pipedream. Moreover, at the point where theory gives way to reality, in the highly unlikely event that space is available on other airlines during significant weather-driven irrops, legacy airlines tend not to be particularly generous with offers of rebooking for no charge (to pax) on other airlines.

I was recently flying EWR-ORD-CLE on AA. ORD-CLE was cancelled and EWR-ORD was delayed. I was interlined onto CO nonstop. That is the value of legacy carriers. Other than being downgraded into Y from F, it was not terrible. I got home. Tue, if EWR was closed down we would all have been stuck, but because ORD was shut down for takeoffs there was a way to reroute me. On the other hand, B6 could not do this becuase they have no interline agreements, and with one hub, there is no way to push me via another city (like DFW or MIA). All the flights pass through JFK so all the flights are cancelled even if I am, for example, in FLL...
 
adizzy
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Mon Feb 19, 2007 12:57 pm

OM JETBLUE.COM they are now allowing for passengers to cancel flights through may 20, 2007 without any penalty or fee??????? Do they think it will take that long to recover?????
 
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mariner
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:03 pm

NB: This article in the NYT requires registration, so I'll summarize and pick out a couple of key quotes.

It is vintage Neeleman, using the power of his personality, revealing his feelings ("humiliated and mortified") and using his precocious ability to see a sunny future. There are sound reasons why he can raise millions of bucks with a snap of his fingers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/19/busine...

He says the company's management is not strong enough and has a "shoestring" communications system and an "under-sized" reservations system.

"We had an emergency control center full of people who didn't know what to do."

Of the chaos last week:

"Yesterday Mr. Neeleman said that throughout the chain of events, he had overestimated JetBlue's ability to find people and get them into position."

He vows to improve the management team (and those communications) within two weeks and that it will be "flawless" in four.

Of course, cynics might wonder how Mr. Neeleman thought he could run an airline of those ambitions and flamboyant growth without a decent operations network in place. But, looking to the future:

"This is going to be a different company because of this," Mr. Neeleman said. "It's going to be expensive."

He does not mention if fares will go up, but he does plan to have a "customer bill of rights"

The last words in the article is from Gordon Bethune, and he does not mince 'em:

"Gordon Bethune said that little other than low fares would do much to win back customers, but if an airline makes a bad judgment call, "you better be good at recovery no matter what." He called last week's JetBlue meltdown "a byproduct of their past and their growth."

It's a good read.

mariner

[Edited 2007-02-19 05:08:25]
aeternum nauta
 
Logos
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:05 pm

It's difficult to characterize this as anything but a disaster for jetBlue. It conveys an impression of incompetence to the general public that, frankly, may square pretty neatly with reality. To blame the media on this one is to miss the point that an airline cancelling more than 1/5th of it's flights days after a weather event because they can't properly position their crews is a genuinely newsworthy event.

I also fail to see how a second fleet type should complicate things to the point that jetBlue can't cope as others have seemed to imply. AirTran, another LCC, doesn't seem to share this problem despite having two distinct types (albeit from the same manufacturer). This is a reflection of serious shortcomings of ability to run an airline, plain and simple.

I've enjoyed the few flights I've taken on jetBlue, but this is a catastrophe. As others have pointed out, the focus of an airline is transportation. If you can't reliably transport people on schedule, it really doesn't matter that they get to watch TV, have good legroom and can eat chex mix when you do finally get off the ground. The public's confidence in jetBlue's ability to fulfill that most basic of airline functions has to be gravely shaken by this turn of events.

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando
Too many types flown to list
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:16 pm

Quoting ADiZzy (Reply 161):
OM JETBLUE.COM they are now allowing for passengers to cancel flights through may 20, 2007 without any penalty or fee??????? Do they think it will take that long to recover?????

Maybe some people don't want to fly B6 anymore?
I love ASO!
 
adizzy
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:18 pm

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 164):
Maybe some people don't want to fly B6 anymore?
Why????

The chose not to fly during un-safe conditions causing a back-up! People should be thankful of this....it could have been their plane that skid off the runway like Delta did today in Cleavland!

[Edited 2007-02-19 05:40:33]
 
WesternA318
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:37 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 162):
"Gordon Bethune said that little other than low fares would do much to win back customers, but if an airline makes a bad judgment call, "you better be good at recovery no matter what." He called last week's JetBlue meltdown "a byproduct of their past and their growth."

Amen go Gordon!

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 164):
Maybe some people don't want to fly B6 anymore?



Quoting ADiZzy (Reply 165):
Why????

I've been on B6 twice, and both times I was VERY unconvinced. B6 is just another airline, but at least on another airline, I can eventually get to whereIm going without having to deal with refugee camps in airports.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:51 pm

Quote:
The company’s low-cost operating structure may have been a contributing factor.

“We had so many people in the company who wanted to help who weren’t trained to help,” he said. “We had an emergency control center full of people who didn’t know what to do. I had flight attendants sitting in hotel rooms for three days who couldn’t get a hold of us. I had pilots e-mailing me saying, ‘I’m available, what do I do?’ ”

Mr. Neeleman said he would enact what he called a customer bill of rights that would financially penalize JetBlue — and reward passengers — for any repeat of the current upheaval. He said he would propose a plan to pay customers, after some amount of time, by the hour for being stranded on a plane.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/19/bu...suserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=print
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
jycarlisle
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:37 pm

Despite the fact that I am really trying to look optimistically at B6, I must say that I have some concerns going through my head now:

I am due to fly on B6 (JFK-JAX)

A) A week from this Wednesday...
B) Is one of the listed runs in the threat starter...
C) Is an E190 route...

I am thinking "Should I cancel it now while I have the time to make another reservation for around the same times with either CO or DL and never make another JAX reservation through them ever again?" (After some internet research, I discovered that I could fly EWR-JAX with CO on a 737 as I am not a RJ person.)

Also, I must say, the last time I "jetBlue'd" was JFK-SDQ a couple of years ago. About a month after I returned from that vacation, I found out that B6 slashed the route. Should B6 downsize it's scheduled destinations in the future, I am hoping JAX is not one of them. As for B6 in general and what has been going on lately, my thoughts go out to the passengers and I am hoping that B6 is going to take appropriate actions to help prevent any future mishappenings or they will be headed down a path of ultimate destruction, IMHO. This is something that I definitely do not want to see as I love B6, am a TrueBlue member, and only want the best for B6, its employees, and its PAX. (Not to mention their A/C)  Wink

Cheers,
Jeremy Carlisle
"CHANGE IS: CLEAN PLANES AND DIRTY MARTINIS" (DL)
 
dutchjet
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:59 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 162):
"Yesterday Mr. Neeleman said that throughout the chain of events, he had overestimated JetBlue's ability to find people and get them into position



Quoting Mariner (Reply 162):
"We had an emergency control center full of people who didn't know what to do."



Quoting Mariner (Reply 162):
He says the company's management is not strong enough and has a "shoestring" communications system and an "under-sized" reservations system.

This goes well beyond the winterstorm meltdown. Didnt JetBlues management ever review their backroom operations or were all of the JetBlue execs so busy going out buying more and more A320s and E190s and adding new cities to the network and giving clever "we are the future"" interviews with the media that they forget to check if the airlines management systems actually work? It seems that if JetBlue has been growing out of control and the managment infrastructure has not had time to catch up. This is all about managment and their shortcomings........the quest to increase revenue and make the financials work became more important that investment in the airlines infrstructure and systems. Not good at all, is this the result of JetBlues revenue shortfalls earlier in the year?

Blue chips and the ability to watch HGTV inflight is not the answer......JetBLue has some major issues to work out that will cost lots and lots of money to fix. These huge expenses will be aside from the fact that the winter storm incident has cost the airline a fortune (parked airplanes, cancelled flights, grounded E190s)....I am curious to see how Wallstreet reacts to all of this and what happens with JetBlue stock on Tuesday. In any case, all of this will have a big effect on JetBlue's bottom line for the 2007 year.

Will JetBlue survive? Yes.
Is the honeymoon now finally over? Yes.

I wonder if one of the results of this terrible fiasco will be a further slowdown in JetBlue's growth....once again, its proved that when an airline grows too fast, problems result.
 
SkyyMaster
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:02 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 166):
I've been on B6 twice, and both times I was VERY unconvinced. B6 is just another airline, but at least on another airline, I can eventually get to whereIm going without having to deal with refugee camps in airports.

The decision I made not to fly B6, at least when I am paying for the flight, was made based upon personal experiences. I have always felt that many of their employees have allowed the "media/industry darlings" label go to their heads. I've encountered a far greater percentage of front line employees with arrogant attitudes than other carriers I frequent - mainly WN and DL. At times, it seems as if the attitude is that they are doing ME a favor by ALLOWING me to fly on THEIR airline. (Capital letters used for emphasis because that was indeed the attitude I got). A recent preflight announcement was less safety oriented than a 5 minute "commercial" about how great JetBlue is, followed by indifferent service. On another flight, a 50 minute flight from JFK-PWM, beverage service didn't begin until 30 minutes into the flight despite no apparent reasons to hold it (i.e., no bumpy weather, no announcements - even the seat belt signs were off). The FA's were busy in the galley talking and laughing among themselves. The final rows of pax didn't get served until we were on long final, and cups collected before most had a chance to get 1/2 way through. This is just one example. Lot's want to tout their IFE. Sorry, no amount of TV and games makes up for smug attitudes. I know many on here love their "JetBlue Experience", but for me, as Western318 says, they are just another airline. And a second tier one at that.
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:15 am

Quoting Jycarlisle (Reply 168):
I am due to fly on B6 (JFK-JAX)

A) A week from this Wednesday...
B) Is one of the listed runs in the threat starter...
C) Is an E190 route...

A.) Operations should be back to normal by tomorrow, let alone by next Wednesday.
B.) See above explanation.
C.) Is an A320 route

By Wednesday, the operations will be back to normal. Heck, nothing is cancelled even for tomorrow.

JetBluefan1
 
boslax
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:17 am

Once operations are back to normal, I'm guessing that jetBlue will try to win back customers with a massive fare sale. So all those folks who claim they will never fly jetBlue again will be online booking their $79 fares to Fort Lauderdale, etc..
 
skyyblue
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:56 am

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 171):
C.) Is an A320 route

It is actually now an E190 route.
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:04 am

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 171):
Heck, nothing is cancelled even for tomorrow.

Are you suggesting that JetBlue should be congraduated since it ONLY took them 6 days to get back to normal? (And lets see if they operate a full schedule tomorrow....after the holiday weekend.) Seriously, do NOT minimize what happened........the events of the past week over at JetBlue are extremely serious and troubling and raise serious issues concerning JetBlue's operating ability. This is not about whether you think JetBlue offers good service or not, or whether JetBlue's PTVs are an important feature when flying, this is about a major airline melting down when encountering a operational problem and not being able to recover (when every other airline did)....and this about JetBlue losing a lot of revenue cancelling flights and grounding airplanes, spending a lot of extra money to charter in capacity at short notice to try to rectify the situation, and having to deal with horrific media coverage due to the events of the past days.

Quoting Boslax (Reply 172):
Once operations are back to normal, I'm guessing that jetBlue will try to win back customers with a massive fare sale.

Maybe, but can JetBlue afford to slash its fares as an ""apology""........remember, one of JetBlue's priorities was to increase revenue. Slashing fares at this point would be a giant step backward......and while I genrerally agree that most pax have very short memories, it will be interesting to see how the travelling public reacts to the JetBlue fiasco of the past week. Will pax quickly forget the stories of being stranded on an airplane for hours, 3 days of flight cancellations, or ruined holiday week travel?
 
WMUPilot
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:21 am

As many have pointed out the events of the past week really brought to light our inability to handle the operation at it's current size. Every thing that was done to try and minimize delays and cancellations was put into action too late. The Reserve augmentation, company enforced ground hold, horizontal communication instead of vertical. Heck, us in the inflight department had to expect calls from 3 different people! Crew Recovery, crew services, and the emergency command they set up. Anybody can tell you that is not how you run an airline. I would expect to see sweeping changes in the way we handle our operation. The events of the past week where a joke and should have never happened on such a grand scale. Heck CO had 2 of it's main hubs disabled and they where running a pretty full schedule the very next day! We need to take notice and step up on this one otherwise this will happen again and if it does i don't think the company will recover from that one. David doesn't like to be embarrassed so I'm sure he has management locked in a room in Forest Hills working on these changes. I'm holding out hope that they get the act together and straighten this out because I don't think I could personally handle another weekend like I just had.
JetBlue - Bringing humanity back to air travel
 
dutchjet
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:27 am

Quoting WMUPilot (Reply 175):
As many have pointed out the events of the past week really brought to light our inability to handle the operation at it's current size. Every thing that was done to try and minimize delays and cancellations was put into action too late. The Reserve augmentation, company enforced ground hold, horizontal communication instead of vertical. Heck, us in the inflight department had to expect calls from 3 different people! Crew Recovery, crew services, and the emergency command they set up. Anybody can tell you that is not how you run an airline. I would expect to see sweeping changes in the way we handle our operation. The events of the past week where a joke and should have never happened on such a grand scale. Heck CO had 2 of it's main hubs disabled and they where running a pretty full schedule the very next day! We need to take notice and step up on this one otherwise this will happen again and if it does i don't think the company will recover from that one. David doesn't like to be embarrassed so I'm sure he has management locked in a room in Forest Hills working on these changes. I'm holding out hope that they get the act together and straighten this out because I don't think I could personally handle another weekend like I just had.

I am sure that you, and many of your co-workers at JetBlue (on all levels of the operation) had an absolutely horrible week......when things go wrong, its the frontline people that get the punishment. I think that everyone hope that this never happens again. Best of luck.
 
WMUPilot
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:35 am

Rightfully so, we, as a company, took a hard beating. We can't blame the media, weather, PANYNJ. This was our own doing. Unfortunatly it had to happen on one of the busiest travel days for New England and we caused extreme hardships to thousands of customers, unfortunatly we may never see many of them again, hopefully we can win back a second oppurtunity, but i'm not going to hold my breath.

I have been keeping an eye on today JFK departures and so far things look great. Flights are leaving ontime and arriving ontime, customers are getting to their destinations, and the 190s are being repositioned through out the system to start operations tomorrow. I would hate to see where we'd be if we tried to operate the 190s along with the 320s.
JetBlue - Bringing humanity back to air travel
 
jacobin777
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:56 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 169):
or were all of the JetBlue execs so busy going out buying more and more A320s

...they put some deliveries on hold.. Wink

Quoting Boslax (Reply 172):
I'm guessing that jetBlue will try to win back customers with a massive fare sale.

...good way to increase losses...

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 174):
Are you suggesting that JetBlue should be congraduated since it ONLY took them 6 days to get back to normal? (And lets see if they operate a full schedule tomorrow....after the holiday weekend.) Seriously, do NOT minimize what happened........the events of the past week over at JetBlue are extremely serious and troubling and raise serious issues concerning JetBlue's operating ability. This is not about whether you think JetBlue offers good service or not, or whether JetBlue's PTVs are an important feature when flying, this is about a major airline melting down when encountering a operational problem and not being able to recover (when every other airline did)....and this about JetBlue losing a lot of revenue cancelling flights and grounding airplanes, spending a lot of extra money to charter in capacity at short notice to try to rectify the situation, and having to deal with horrific media coverage due to the events of the past days.

...I can only hope B6 learns from this....I also think most people will be forgiving enough..especially if they solve their problems...I dont' think they will be too lucky if this happens again.....

..if this happened to me with AA, I wouldn't be too happy either..but I would be willing to forgive them as long as they take the proper steps......
"Up the Irons!"
 
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mariner
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Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:33 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 169):
I wonder if one of the results of this terrible fiasco will be a further slowdown in JetBlue's growth..

There are two problems here, Dutchjet: one is that all of this was completely predictable, and was predicted by some.

The second is that it cuts to the very heart of the JetBlue business model - Mr. Neeleman's "vision".

How many aircraft do they have on order? How many new cities did they open last year, and how many do they have planned for this? They have to send all those aircraft somewhere.

JetBlue (like Southwest) relies on growth to maintain it's cost structure, but the growth is out of hand.

There was a similar snafu at JetBlue year or so ago, one that didn't involve the operational side. Faced with loses, Mr. Neeleman had an epiphany and discovered a thing called "revenue management". That it wasn't enough to fill the aircraft with cheap fares.

They fixed the problem by hiring people who understood what to do, but it was at some cost to the concept. Revenue went up but load factors fell. It is an intricate balance.

They can fix this present problem by cutting back - seriously - on growth until they have a proper infrastructure in place.

But the question has to be asked - is Mr. Neeleman the right person to do this? Because, with the best will in the world, I have to agree with TxAgKuwait's assessment:

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 142):
that Neeleman was real good at starting an airline, but that the jury was still out on whether or not he could run one.I think the jury has returned with a verdict.

Which matches Mr. Bethune's:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 162):
"Gordon Bethune said that little other than low fares would do much to win back customers, but if an airline makes a bad judgment call, "you better be good at recovery no matter what." He called last week's JetBlue meltdown "a byproduct of their past and their growth."

Mr. Neeleman has the admirable dream of growth in spades. One hopes he has learned that growth without proper infrastructure can turn the dream into a nightmare.

mariner

[Edited 2007-02-19 19:47:14]
aeternum nauta
 
jycarlisle
Posts: 242
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:10 am

RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:18 am

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 171):
C.) Is an A320 route

Per my own seat pre-assignments, calling B6 reservations, and my own knowledge, it is now an E190 route.

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 171):
By Wednesday, the operations will be back to normal. Heck, nothing is cancelled even for tomorrow.

Until the next snow storm... (Hoping it's not going to be over 2/28/07.)
"CHANGE IS: CLEAN PLANES AND DIRTY MARTINIS" (DL)
 
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chrisnh
Posts: 4135
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:21 am

It's Monday night and, looking at FlightAware, I see NO E190s heading up to Portland, Maine (ferried) to serve tomorrow's expected resumption of service. I also don't believe E190s were sitting up there just waiting. Is this going to happen tomorrow?

Chris in NH
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:22 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 179):
JetBlue (like Southwest) relies on growth to maintain it's cost structure, but the growth is out of hand.

One advantage WN has is the fact it has multiple hubs to reposition aircraft/crews to/from in the event one hub goes down.
To kind of pick up the slack, so to speak.
You can't cure stupid
 
tooluther
Posts: 203
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:21 am

RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:31 am

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 181):
It's Monday night and, looking at FlightAware, I see NO E190s heading up to Portland, Maine (ferried) to serve tomorrow's expected resumption of service. I also don't believe E190s were sitting up there just waiting. Is this going to happen tomorrow?

You'd be surprised. There was a 190 in PIT when I pulled in on Sunday night. It wasn't there on Friday, so I assume it just sat around all day today.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:33 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 182):
One advantage WN has is the fact it has multiple hubs to reposition aircraft/crews to/from in the event one hub goes down.
To kind of pick up the slack, so to speak.

Excellent point. Last week, while jetBlue was jettisoning all its accrued goodwill, Southwest was flying nonstops between Manchester, NH and LAX; Manchester, NH and San Diego; Manchester, NH and a few other locations...all flights that normally would stop at BWI. Those guys have the flexibility and the infrastructure to pull off ad-hoc changes like that. There was one 737-700 up here at MHT that was fueled for another MHT-LAX nonstop and ready to go. At the last moment operations wanted to change the routing to MHT-BWI instead (wx cleared there, I guess) and off-load the already-loaded fuel. Fuelers said 'No.' But still...it points out the nimbleness Southwest has that jetBlue doesn't.

Chris in NH
 
BoomBoom
Posts: 2459
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:40 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 143):
The story was that JetBlue can't even put accurate information out on their web site. If they had, these folks could have hung out in the comfort of "Grandma's house" instead of cooling their heels in an chaotic airport crowded with pissed off people.



Quote:
Janice Schott, a manager for Jelly Belly Candy Co., of Fairfield, Calif., had been in New York for a toy fair. Her outbound United Airlines flight had canceled and her corporate travel agent rebooked her on JetBlue. When Ms. Schott went to JFK Thursday afternoon for the return JetBlue flight to Sacramento, Calif., "there was hardly any snow on the ground," she said, leading her and the airline agents to believe the flight "would be a go."

After hours of waiting, Ms. Schott says her group was told of a gate change and bused to another terminal. "It was the most disgusting scene," she recalled. "The noise was deafening. People were screaming. There were police officers in riot gear. JetBlue employees were crying. There were piles of luggage and no control over what was going on."

Another JetBlue flight "is not an option in my lifetime," she said.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1171...612561.html?mod=home_whats_news_us

Oh, dear...
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
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chrisnh
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:10 pm

This is jetBlue's 'Tylenol' crisis. People are still buying Tylenol and they'll still fly jetBlue, but you cannot calculate the evaporation of goodwill that's occured to this carrier within the past week.

Chris in NH
 
WesternA318
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:16 pm

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 170):
I have always felt that many of their employees have allowed the "media/industry darlings" label go to their heads. I've encountered a far greater percentage of front line employees with arrogant attitudes than other carriers I frequent - mainly WN and DL. At times, it seems as if the attitude is that they are doing ME a favor by ALLOWING me to fly on THEIR airline.

Hence why I tend to think of it as more of a cheerleading squad with no brains whatsoever.

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 170):
I know many on here love their "JetBlue Experience", but for me, as Western318 says, they are just another airline. And a second tier one at that.

I dont even consider them an airline.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 179):
JetBlue (like Southwest) relies on growth to maintain it's cost structure, but the growth is out of hand.

But Southwest has contingencyplans in place as well, and does not 100% relyon growth, as it needs to cultivateits routes as well as the next guy.

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 185):
Another JetBlue flight "is not an option in my lifetime," she said.

Thank heavens I'm not the only one who thinks this.
 
RDUDDJI
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:43 pm

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 142):
When JetBlue's folks organize...and they will get smart and organize, one of these days....perhaps some of this imbecilic and childish immaturity in the way they conduct themselves will go away.

Ah, "union lore"... Give me two hours of your paycheck a week and we'll fix the problem by taking your dues to bars with us (uhhh, uhhh,uhh... I mean work with mgmt.) If B6 were unionized: A) their employees would lose nearly all empowerment. B) their union endorsed apathy would only futher their woes, internally and externally.

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 142):
Braniff also had the reputation as the world's largest unscheduled airlines. After the 727 arrived in Dallas from LaGuardia or DC National or O'Hare.....late.....it turned the Dallas to Austin or Houston or San Antonio flight. One month when Southwest managed a 97.6% on time rate on its 3 city network, Braniff ran a 56% record on those routes.

I can't think of a less logical reference. This is "Peas to carrots minus 20+ years"

Quoting Mariner (Reply 162):
He says the company's management is not strong enough and has a "shoestring" communications system and an "under-sized" reservations system.

I would agree with both statements. B6 should have had the forseight to mitigate some of this, and better ops mgmt to overcome it. Plus, I've said before and I'll say it again, "Navitaire sucks!" <-- That's their res sys to anyone who doesn't know. Neeleman invented it, but IMO it cannot support an operation that has grown to their level.

I wish B6 the best, even though they didn't hire me in System Control a few years ago... I didn't even get the "Thanks for coming out" card...
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
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mariner
Posts: 19473
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:10 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 187):
and does not 100% relyon growth, as it needs to cultivateits routes as well as the next guy.

Cultivating routes is part of growth. And since CEO Kelly refers to his airline - Southwest - as a "growth" airline, who am I to argue?

There is a differnce between "rational growth" and "flamboyant growth", however, and one hopes Mr. Neeleman will take some pages out of the more rational Southwest book.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4603
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:14 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 189):
Cultivating routes is part of growth. And since CEO Kelly refers to his airline - Southwest - as a "growth" airline, who am I to argue?

There is a differnce between "rational growth" and "flamboyant growth", however, and one hopes Mr. Neeleman will take some pages out of the more rational Southwest book.

 checkmark  Now I understood, thanks for clarifying
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:26 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 187):
Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 170):
I know many on here love their "JetBlue Experience", but for me, as Western318 says, they are just another airline. And a second tier one at that.

I dont even consider them an airline.

I'm curious as to why you don't "even consider them an airline"...
"Up the Irons!"
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4603
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:30 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 191):
I'm curious as to why you don't "even consider them an airline"...

When their own management is so high on themselves about what a grand experience flying them is, it makes me shuder, and when something like this operations meltdown happens, it makes me all the more glad, Ive only wasted money twice on them and never again. To me, as a flying passenger, B6 doesnt even exist.
 
j_hallgren
Posts: 1427
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:44 pm

Just heard on Dave Letterman: "Tomorrow night on CBS - Survivor: jetBlue"  Smile
COBOL - Not a dead language yet!
 
SkyyMaster
Posts: 1082
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RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:53 pm

According to the local late newscast here in Nashville, B6 has cancelled tomorrow's (Tuesday) BNA flights, and may not resume until Thursday. There's something very wrong here. Regardless of my less than affectionate feelings towards JetBlue, this is a severe management failure unlike any at an airline I've seen in quite some time, if ever. I remarked to a friend a year ago, they were going to wind up like PeoplExpress. Too much expansion too fast could come back to bite them in the a$$. Looks like it's happened. Not getting this fixed a week after the snowstorm is disgraceful.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:02 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 192):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 191):
I'm curious as to why you don't "even consider them an airline"...

When their own management is so high on themselves about what a grand experience flying them is, it makes me shuder, and when something like this operations meltdown happens, it makes me all the more glad, Ive only wasted money twice on them and never again. To me, as a flying passenger, B6 doesnt even exist.

..that is more of a reflection on managment.....B6 is the largest carrier out of the one the busiest airports in the world...sounds like a good definition of an "air carrier" to me.... Wink
"Up the Irons!"
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4603
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:55 am

RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:23 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 195):
..that is more of a reflection on managment.....B6 is the largest carrier out of the one the busiest airports in the world...sounds like a good definition of an "air carrier" to me....

irregardless, whenever I have to fly to LA or NYC, B6 isnt even an option.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:32 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 196):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 195):
..that is more of a reflection on managment.....B6 is the largest carrier out of the one the busiest airports in the world...sounds like a good definition of an "air carrier" to me....

irregardless, whenever I have to fly to LA or NYC, B6 isnt even an option.

that's your choice, which is your right........but you can't say that "B6 isn't a carrier" when they dominate one of the busiest airports in the world..
"Up the Irons!"
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4603
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:55 am

RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:21 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 197):
that's your choice, which is your right

At LEAST we agree on that
 
LGA777
Posts: 954
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2003 12:46 am

RE: JetBlue Parking All E190s Until 2/19

Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:31 pm

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 194):
According to the local late newscast here in Nashville, B6 has cancelled tomorrow's (Tuesday) BNA flights, and may not resume until Thursday.

SkyyMaster, not to doubt you but here in NYC local news is reporting (as of 1800) B6 ran 100 pct of their flights today. I wonder which is the case ?

Regards

LGA777

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