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centrair
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ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:24 pm

ATW:Boeing may offer two 737 replacement solutions

Quote:
Environmental pressures may influence Boeing to offer two solutions for the 737 replacement market, although the effort on that front still is relatively low-key.

Speaking to ATWOnline late last week, Commercial Airplanes President Scott Carson suggested that environmental issues are a "top priority" at Boeing and that it may move the baseline for the 737 replacement higher than the current 90-200 seats to a 130/230-seat platform.



Quote:
He said the manufacturer is conducting trade studies on two fuselage widths and possibly could offer the market two solutions with common cockpits, wings and engines. This concept is not new and was floated as the Low Cost Modular Aircraft by a McDonnell Douglas engineer in August 1997.



Quote:
EIS timelines of around 2013-14 have been suggested by some analysts.


Article also says they are looking at a twin aisle design. They say that the propsed DC-11 and proposed 7J7 were to have twin aisles. Anyone have any images of the DC-11 idea? The 7J7 drawings I have seen looked like DC-9 with a rear mounted fan-prop engine. Not very wide-body.

[Edited 2007-02-19 08:36:27]
 
slz396
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:45 pm

Moving the baseline for the 737 replacement up from the current 90-200 seats to a 130/230-seat platform definitely makes sense.

Boeing shouldn't make the error to offer a 100+ seating plane in replacement for its 737-600 as it is clear any such plane will have a hard time competing the likes of the Embraer 195 simply because whatever Boeing will compete with, will be a super-shrunk version of the 737 successor and thus structurally very inefficient.

Besides, the optimum point in the baseline for the 737 has never been shifted upwards ever since it was conceived as a family in the early 1980s by adding the larger -300 and -400 versions to the replacement model for the original 737-100/-200 versions (which is the -500), and the NG family did add even more stretch on the baseline by adding an even larger -900 version without moving the optimum point, so that it falls relatively far out towards the low end of the product range.

Looking at the A320 family which was conceived more than a decade later, we can see the optimum point in its baseline was set higher than that of the 737NG family and it has proven to be a plane which is more adapted to today's market needs, so I think Boeing will take this lesson from Airbus and move in the direction of the A320 with their 737 successor: a wider, larger, higher sitting plane, with a modestly larger seating capacity across all its models.
 
columba
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:06 pm

Quote:
Carson told this website that "environmental issues would put upward pressure on capacity."

Isn´ t that the sale´s argument for Airbus and the A380.

Anyway good news would be great to see two different 737 replacement airplanes at the airports. Interesting to see what Airbus will do in response offering only one model or two as well.
 
siromega
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:23 pm

As much as I'd like to see a real DC9/MD80 replacement, I dont think its economical. AA is replacing their MD80s with 738s. Things are moving up. The 767 is being replaced with the 787, and likewise I dont think 125 seat aircraft are going to be replaced with 125 seat aircraft. I'm getting the feeling we're looking at 149/199/230 seat aircrafts this generation. I dont see any more than three lengths simply because I think once you get past three, you know one is going to be a dud, usually the smallest one (318 out of 318/19/20/21 and 736 of 736/3G/38/39).

The twin isle seems odd though. How short would a 7-abreast twin isle aircraft be at only 150y seats. Unless its skewed 99/135/149 single isle and 199/235/275 2-3-2 twin isle, it just doesnt seem right. A 2-2-2 config seems unlikely since you'll be carrying around more extra weight and there is no way you're going to increase turn time enough to compensate (everyone is still getting off through one door and one jetway). Probably 3-3 for the smaller model and a modified cross-section to allow for more comfortable seating and larger overhead bin areas, maybe even a wider isle (26"+) to allow people to scoot by someone who is standing in the isle . A 2-3-2 199y aircraft is sufficiently long to be economical. This would be the 762/3 domestic replacement.
 
slz396
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:23 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 2):
Interesting to see what Airbus will do in response offering only one model or two as well.

Airbus has the luxury of NOT having to move as first, and I think they will exploit this to the full extend so the most likely and also sensible thing they are likely going to do, is follow a 2-way solution:

1- re-engine the current A320 family with the new engines which may be available by 2011 already if one is to believe P&W (which is the manufacturer Carlson refers to in the interview), that way being the FIRST to offer most of the benefits of the leap in technology across a COMPLETE narrow body product range.

2- AFTER Y1 has been introduced, come out with its own NSR to do the same as the A320 has done to the 737....

[Edited 2007-02-19 09:47:14]
 
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shamrock350
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:39 pm

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
The 7J7 drawings I have seen looked like DC-9 with a rear mounted fan-prop engine. Not very wide-body.

Here's the 7J7 but I havent found the other aircraft, would love to see it though.
 
slz396
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:44 pm

Quoting SirOmega (Reply 3):
I dont think 125 seat aircraft are going to be replaced with 125 seat aircraft. I'm getting the feeling we're looking at 149/199/230 seat aircrafts this generation. I dont see any more than three lengths simply because I think once you get past three, you know one is going to be a dud, usually the smallest one (318 out of 318/19/20/21 and 736 of 736/3G/38/39).

I think you are right on the money and Boeing will move the optimum model of the Y1 so far out to the right, so as to drop any 736 successor from its range and embrace the 739 successor in full.

Airbus should do the same when the time comes to launch the NSR, since there is no big money to be made from the A318/736 replacements.

Quoting SirOmega (Reply 3):
The twin isle seems odd though. How short would a 7-abreast twin isle aircraft be at only 150y seats. Unless its skewed 99/135/149 single isle and 199/235/275 2-3-2 twin isle, it just doesn't seem right. A 2-2-2 config seems unlikely since you'll be carrying around more extra weight and there is no way you're going to increase turn time enough to compensate (everyone is still getting off through one door and one jetway). Probably 3-3 for the smaller model and a modified cross-section to allow for more comfortable seating and larger overhead bin areas, maybe even a wider isle (26"+) to allow people to scoot by someone who is standing in the isle.

Again I think you are right and Boeing isn't really thinking about a twin isle for the larger models, but simply a slightly wider cross section which would then allow for more comfortable seats or wider isles depending the need of the airlines. Those who absolutely would want to give it a try, might be able to squize in a very uncomfortable 2_3_2.

[Edited 2007-02-19 09:48:06]
 
planemaker
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:00 pm

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
Article also says they are looking at a twin aisle design.

Insiders at Boeing suggest that the replacement for the 737 could be a twin-aisle composite aircraft. The company announced last week that it has formed a team headed by Mike Cave, Boeing Commercial Airplanes VP-aircraft programs, to evaluate a new design.

The above is also from ATW... but from a year ago - Mar 2006!  Smile

Boeing begins search for 737 successor
http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=4283

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
They say that the propsed DC-11 and proposed 7J7 were to have twin aisles.

From the same ATW article from a year ago...

In the late 1970s and early 1980s, Douglas touted the Advanced Technology Medium Range 175/180-seat aircraft designed to have two aisles with six-across seating in a 173-in. cross-section or seven-across in high-density seating. At the time, the model that became known as the DC-XX and then DC-11 was dropped despite Delta Air Lines' order for 100 when McDonnell Douglas Chairman James McDonnell balked at the financial commitment. Delta ordered 757s instead.
 
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keesje
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:07 pm

Interesting issue. Nobody (incl A & B) knows the right answers yet. We had some interesting disccusions about this a year ago. IMO it will be hard to develop an aircraft that can do both 90 and 220 seat operations in line with todays stringent fuel consumption requirements. Boeing has been testing the water before with the idea of developing a smaller & bigger narrowbody variant:

Boeing Also Developing 100 Seater As 737 Successor
https://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2643482

Both A & B concluded sofar a better new engine is key. This engine will probably have a high bypass ratio, making it impossible to fit it under the 737 wing. The a320 seems to have ground clearance left & is in discussion with the engine OEMS (PW GTF, RR small three spool, CFM bigger carbon fan) to include a new engine for a A320 Enhanced.

Boeing seems to have no real option to extend the 737 life cycle much longer & will probably lead the pack in coming up with an all new design.

Airbus NSR And Boeing RS/Y1 : New Engine Key
https://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2593338

IMO there are gabs in the 90-130 segment left by e.g. the F100, ARJ & 717 and the medium haul 200 -250 seat segment left open by the 757 and A310.

For the large aircrat I think a 3-3 abreast with a 50% wider aisle (ability to pass other passengers / crew) would be far more economic then a 2-2-2, for the smaller aircraft I think 2-3 (2-2 premium) seems the most efficient cross aisle. With Henry Lam I even dared to propose a design melted together from various studies & new technologies:

New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design
https://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2927184
 
planemaker
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:49 pm

Quoting SirOmega (Reply 3):
A 2-2-2 config seems unlikely since you'll be carrying around more extra weight and there is no way you're going to increase turn time enough to compensate (everyone is still getting off through one door and one jetway).

Not neccessarily... it depends on the specs airlines dictate. In a 2-2-2 config with CFRP fuse, at standard seat widths and 16" aisles, the weight will be less than today's 737 as fuse width would only increase by around approx 12 inches.

As for quicker turnarounds, yes, a twin aisle would work. It is not the single door that is as much as an issue as getting the 2 window seat paxs from their seats into the aisle and getting their hand baggage from the overhead... which blocks the aisle.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 8):
For the large aircrat I think a 3-3 abreast with a 50% wider aisle (ability to pass other passengers / crew) would be far more economic then a 2-2-2,

As indicated above, with only a 12" wider fuse (only 2" more than your 50% wider aisle), Boeing could feasibly offer a twin aisle that offers 2/3 aisle seats which increases comfort significantly... more than wider window and middle seats while offering basicaly the same economics.
 
SkyGazer
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:16 pm

Wasn't there also plans floated last year about Boeing doing composite 737s in the future?
 
2wingtips
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:21 pm

Any twin aisle NB replacement will have 2-3-2 capabilities IMO. It may only have those capabilities for charter carriers, but I don't see any real advantage in widening the fuselage for a slightly wider aisle. So, something b/w the 737 and 767 fuselage widths would be the safe bet.
 
planemaker
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:39 pm

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 11):
Any twin aisle NB replacement will have 2-3-2 capabilities IMO.

A major customer would be Southwest and they fly 73Gs with only 137 seats. A 2-3-2 140-seater would be a fat and prorportionately short aircraft.
 
widebodyphotog
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:48 pm

DC-11

Big version: Width: 529 Height: 365 File size: 21kb
DC-11 Concept


Big version: Width: 528 Height: 211 File size: 326kb
DC-11 Cross Section




-widebodyphotog
 
EI321
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:48 pm

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 12):
A 2-3-2 140-seater would be a fat and prorportionately short aircraft.

I think a 767 layout would be overkill for a small aircraft. There would be a lot of wasted space in the cargo area. I cant say that I ever noticed a difference in disembarkment time between a 230 seat 767 and a 220 seat A321.

[Edited 2007-02-19 11:50:41]
 
Ruscoe
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:17 pm

My best guess is a 22" wider fuselage than the current 737.

This would allow 2+2+2 with 2 ailes, and 1 " wider seats.

It would also allow 3+3 with very comfortabole seating.

Ruscoe
 
EI321
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:22 pm

If we look at the current FR model, they usually use both the front and rear doors to speed up turn arounds. Maybe this is something that Boeing are looking at.
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:07 pm

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 5):
Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
The 7J7 drawings I have seen looked like DC-9 with a rear mounted fan-prop engine. Not very wide-body.

Here's the 7J7 but I havent found the other aircraft, would love to see it though.

Looks like the B757 fuselage is being used there (if you look at the nose).

Cheers!  wave 
 
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shamrock350
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:12 pm

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 17):
Looks like the B757 fuselage is being used there (if you look at the nose).

Yep it does in fact it looks like Boeing just put a 757 from the nose to the wings and a DC-9 from the wings back.

 Big grin
 
EI321
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:14 pm

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 17):
Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 5):
Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
The 7J7 drawings I have seen looked like DC-9 with a rear mounted fan-prop engine. Not very wide-body.

Here's the 7J7 but I havent found the other aircraft, would love to see it though.

Looks like the B757 fuselage is being used there (if you look at the nose).

The fuselage is wider but I presume judging by the cockpit windows that the 7J7 would have had the same cockpit as the 757/767 for commonality advantages, and dare I say it, maybe even incorporated the imfamous Boeing section 41!*

*Obviously it did not as its narrower than a 767.

[Edited 2007-02-19 13:15:36]
 
columba
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:15 pm

2 years ago Boeing has introduced a concept for a twin aisle aircraft the seats less than 200 passengers.
There was even a thread here on a.net. I had the link saved from the Boeing press release but the page does not longer exists. Boeing offered showed several concepts one was looking very similar to a twin engined Avro RJ.
The seating was supposed to be 2-3-2 as it has been already mentioned here.
 
EI321
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:16 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 20):
2 years ago Boeing has introduced a concept for a twin aisle aircraft the seats less than 200 passengers.

Apparently they patented the design configuration. So look out for a suspiciously similar looking aircraft named the A3_0 coming soon to your local airport.  Big grin

[Edited 2007-02-19 13:18:44]
 
parapente
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:47 pm

OK guys. Now for something completely different. We are in an age of pollution. (Both CO2 and Noise). The next 2,000 selling aircraft must meet these 2 key criterior. At the same time as this thread has shown ,youalso have to offer more to the airports and the passengers. This essentially means a wide(r) boddied aircraft (thus more drag). There is one strange aircraft that (by accident) meets all the key criterior. It is .1.Is Widebodied 2.Is Silent.3.Has (2) high bypass engines4.Is long enough to be stable(and widebodied at the same time.5. The mechanics (engines) can be accessed easily.

This was a "black" programme. The radar "stealth" aspects can be ignored. It would need to be scaled up,with a faster wing (very clean with no engines!)

Gentlemen. Those with photoshop sharpen your mice.










Big version: Width: 319 Height: 200 File size: 5kb
 
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SEPilot
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:36 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 8):
IMO it will be hard to develop an aircraft that can do both 90 and 220 seat operations in line with todays stringent fuel consumption requirements.

 checkmark 
Excellent point; every design has its optimum, and that is especially true with airplanes where weight is so important. Trying to cover too broad a range with one design only leads to inefficiency at both extremes, and probably compromises at the optimum point as well.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:42 pm

I think Boeing might revive the 7J7 program, but instead of using propfans (which does offer lower fuel burn but have the disadvantages of difficulties in lowering noise levels and no protection in case of blade separation) they might use Pratt & Whitney's PW8000 geared-drive turbofan engine with a larger, slower-turning front fan, which could cut fuel consumption quite a bit compared to the current CFM56 or V2500 engines.

Also, it will allow the likes of Embraer and Sukhoi to offer their 95-110 passenger shorter-range jets without direct competition with Boeing.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:02 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 24):
I think Boeing might revive the 7J7 program, but instead of using propfans (which does offer lower fuel burn but have the disadvantages of difficulties in lowering noise levels and no protection in case of blade separation) they might use Pratt & Whitney's PW8000 geared-drive turbofan engine with a larger, slower-turning front fan, which could cut fuel consumption quite a bit compared to the current CFM56 or V2500 engines.

I would doubt that they would abandon under-wing engines in that case; after the 727 they have shown no enthusiasm for tail-mounted engines. The layout suited the 7J7 because the fans are at the rear of the engines and the taper of the fuselage makes for shorter engine supports, but a ducted fan would take that advantage away. Having the engines tail mounted requires considerable fuselage structure and some length that would not otherwise be required, while wing mounting requires little added reinforcement and no added length over what is required anyway for wing and landing gear structure. The larger fan will require taller gear; that will be the main compromise.
 
LawnDart
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:15 am

www.flightpaths.com.au/PDF/After%20the%20737.pdf

Interesting .pdf file that shows the DC-11 photos from reply 13 above, and also Boeing's proposed 7J7 with interior cross-section photo as well.
 
JAAlbert
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:23 am

I like the 2-2-2- cross section of the DC-11! That would be an awesome replacement for those cramped 320s and 737s. Flying SWA might even become fun. But why would Boeing offer a 2-2-2 or even 2-3-2 configuration after all the dissatisfaction with the 767's width? As I understand it, the 333 overtook the 767 because the 767's width did not allow a standard cargo container. If Boeing is going to a 2-3-2 configuration again, isn't the pressure on to create the standard-sized 2-4-2, fuselage width, which makes the aircraft very different from the 737 it's supposed to replace.

Wouldn't Boeing be hesitant to offer another "narrow" widebody after the 767 experience?

And both replacement aircraft would be wide bodied? If one is narrow body and the other wide body, I think we are talking about updated 757 and 767 styled aircraft. Why would Boeing go down this road again?
 
osiris30
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:26 am

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
Speaking to ATWOnline late last week, Commercial Airplanes President Scott Carson suggested that environmental issues are a "top priority" at Boeing and that it may move the baseline for the 737 replacement higher than the current 90-200 seats to a 130/230-seat platform.

Quote:
He said the manufacturer is conducting trade studies on two fuselage widths and possibly could offer the market two solutions with common cockpits, wings and engines. This concept is not new and was floated as the Low Cost Modular Aircraft by a McDonnell Douglas engineer in August 1997.

I've been saying this on here for 6 months, yet I constantly get told it's a foolish idea. Sorry for a post that is essentially gloating, but after the crap I took for suggesting this in other threads, I'll just sit here and enjoy the moment.

(PS: This is entirely logical. The 736 and 318 are for all intents and purposes failures and leave the bottom of the market place wide open for BBD and EMB).
 
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RayChuang
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:32 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 25):
The layout suited the 7J7 because the fans are at the rear of the engines and the taper of the fuselage makes for shorter engine supports, but a ducted fan would take that advantage away. Having the engines tail mounted requires considerable fuselage structure and some length that would not otherwise be required, while wing mounting requires little added reinforcement and no added length over what is required anyway for wing and landing gear structure.

However, the weight problem of putting the engines on the tail could be alleviated by going to new, lighter structural materials now widely available that weren't available cheaply during the development of the 7J7 in the later 1980's, namely composites, aluminum-lithium alloys and improved titanium alloys. Besides, it allows for a completely "clean" wing design, which could offer additional aerodynamic benefits in terms of lower weight, lower drag and/or better wing lift.
 
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Stitch
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:19 am

I tend to agree Boeing may not go with a 767-sized fuselage. Adding 22 inches to the current 737 would bring you to 161 inches, which is 25 inches narrower then the 767.

Offering two fuselage styles - narrowbody and widebody - could have benefits. The narrowbody would be aimed more towards the LCCs and domestic carriers, who don't want a great number of seats (so they can improve turnaround and save on cabin staffing) but offering sufficient range for transcontinental service. But it stands to reason the majors will want a 737-800/A320-200 replacement, so there would be a larger 175-seat model for them.Make it as wide as the A320 so it can have 18" seats and ULD capability.

The widebody would offer larger capacities and trans-Atlantic range to replace the 757. It's wide enough to take suites in a 1+1 (or even 1+1+1) configuration and modern Business Class seating in 2+1+2.

So you'd have three narrowbodies and three widebodies, all sharing a common Section 41 ala the 757/767.

797-1: 125 passengers / 3000nm range / Narrowbody / 3+3
797-2: 150 passengers / 3500nm range / Narrowbody / 3+3
797-3: 175 passengers / 3500nm range / Narrowbody / 3+3

797-4: 175 passengers / 5000nm range / Widebody / 2+2+2
797-5: 200 passengers / 5000nm range / Widebody / 2+2+2
797-6: 225 passengers / 4500nm range / Widebody / 2+2+2
 
Thorny
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:21 am

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 27):
And both replacement aircraft would be wide bodied? If one is narrow body and the other wide body, I think we are talking about updated 757 and 767 styled aircraft. Why would Boeing go down this road again?

Because they sold 2,000 airframes between the two of them?
 
B2707SST
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:29 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 29):
However, the weight problem of putting the engines on the tail could be alleviated by going to new, lighter structural materials now widely available that weren't available cheaply during the development of the 7J7 in the later 1980's, namely composites, aluminum-lithium alloys and improved titanium alloys. Besides, it allows for a completely "clean" wing design, which could offer additional aerodynamic benefits in terms of lower weight, lower drag and/or better wing lift.

True, but a composite airframe with wing-mounted engines will still be lighter than a composite airframe with tail-mounted engines. The load path with rear-mounted engines is longer and more complex, demanding heavier fuselage structures, and this configuration would also require a T-tail, which Boeing hasn't shown much interest in since the early 757 designs. Mounting the engines on the wings further reduces weight because the engines alleviate some of the wing's bending moment, so the wing structure can be lighter as well. Finally, while underwing clearance for very high bypass turbofans has been raised as a potential problem, imagine trying to fit such monstrous engines on the rear fuselage. I'm not an aeronautical engineer, but it seems impractical.

With even small mainline aircraft like the E-Jets and potentially the CSeries going for underwing engines, it's hard to see the rear-mounted engine/T-tail design making a comeback, but one never knows....

--B2707SST

[Edited 2007-02-19 17:32:01]
 
JAAlbert
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:40 am

Quoting Thorny (Reply 31):
Because they sold 2,000 airframes between the two of them?

True of course, but aren't we talking about replacing the 737 which has a potential market of many more thousands -- if they size the plane right.
 
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Kukkudrill
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:41 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 1):
Besides, the optimum point in the baseline for the 737 has never been shifted upwards ever since it was conceived as a family in the early 1980s by adding the larger -300 and -400 versions to the replacement model for the original 737-100/-200 versions (which is the -500), and the NG family did add even more stretch on the baseline by adding an even larger -900 version without moving the optimum point

The NGs have a substantially bigger wing than the classics, which suggests to me that the "optimum point" did get shifted upwards.
 
jacobin777
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RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:00 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 4):
2- AFTER Y1 has been introduced, come out with its own NSR to do the same as the A320 has done to the 737....

..what has it doen Slz396...have a chart to prove what you are claiming?

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 4):

Airbus has the luxury of NOT having to move as first,

...isn't this part of the reason as to what got Airbus into its current situation?
 
BoomBoom
Posts: 2459
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:26 am

RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:00 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 4):
2- AFTER Y1 has been introduced, come out with its own NSR to do the same as the A320 has done to the 737....

Take 50% of the market?

Quoting SkyGazer (Reply 10):
Wasn't there also plans floated last year about Boeing doing composite 737s in the future?



Quote:
Carson said one engine-maker has indicated it would have a powerplant ready by late 2011 and added that the 737 replacement's design is "likely to be all-composite."

http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=7961
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:14 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 28):
I've been saying this on here for 6 months, yet I constantly get told it's a foolish idea. Sorry for a post that is essentially gloating, but after the crap I took for suggesting this in other threads, I'll just sit here and enjoy the moment.

Sorry, but others, including Boeing and FI, beat you to the punch a year ago.  Smile

You just have to read the thread that Keesje provided.
 
TomB
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 10:17 pm

RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:37 am

Boeing filed a patent on a twin aisle small airplane. Go to www.uspto.gov and do a patent search for patent 6,834,833. The abstract of the patent said "A less than 200 seat class passenger airplane includes a passenger cabin with two longitudinal aisles, and at least six economy class seats abreast of the cabin. The cross section of the cabin perpendicular to a longitudinal axis of the airplane fuselage has a horizontal diameter in value in excess of a vertical diameter."

If you look at the drawings, the aircraft has the shape and proportions of a B-737-100 (Fat Albert) but with a T tail so that the elevators have greater operating leverage. The fuselage is a slightly squashed oval to permit B-767 type seating. The patent talked about one wing platform for a 90 to 120 seat version, a second wing platform for 135 to 185 seat version and a third wing platform for the 210 to 290 seat version. The engines would have to be scaled for the different versions.

Perhaps Boeing would take the concept contained in the patent and build two versions covering 130 to 230 seats with two different wing platforms (like the B-787-3 and B-787-8 wings) and maybe get the engine manufacturers to manufacture two scaled versions of the same basic engine.
 
kaitak744
Posts: 2233
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:32 pm

RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:45 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 30):
797-1: 125 passengers / 3000nm range / Narrowbody / 3+3
797-2: 150 passengers / 3500nm range / Narrowbody / 3+3
797-3: 175 passengers / 3500nm range / Narrowbody / 3+3

797-4: 175 passengers / 5000nm range / Widebody / 2+2+2
797-5: 200 passengers / 5000nm range / Widebody / 2+2+2
797-6: 225 passengers / 4500nm range / Widebody / 2+2+2

Too much and too complicated.

737-700/A319----> 797-1: 130 passengers / 4,000nm / 3-3
737-800/A320----> 797-2: 155 passengers / 4,000nm / 3-3
737-900-------------> 797-3: 180 passengers / 4,000nm / 3-3
A321-----------------> 797-8: 205 passengers / 6,000nm / 3-2-3 *
757-200-------------> 797-9: 230 passengers / 6,000nm / 3-2-3 *

* A 2-2-2 seating is very very useless. It is nothing but an extra isle from the 3-3, and therefore causes unnecessary drag. A 205 and 230 seater with 3-2-3 would be just fine.
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 6024
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:51 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 19):
The fuselage is wider but I presume judging by the cockpit windows that the 7J7 would have had the same cockpit as the 757/767 for commonality advantages, and dare I say it, maybe even incorporated the imfamous Boeing section 41!*

To be sure, there are several different Section 41s:
  1. C-135
  2. 707/720/727/737
  3. 747
  4. 757
  5. 767/777
  6. 787
 
osiris30
Posts: 2681
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:16 am

RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:14 am

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 37):
Sorry, but others, including Boeing and FI, beat you to the punch a year ago.

Well I can only post here going back as far as I signed up to post  Wink

Having said that, it amazing how many folks dismiss what comes from Boeing themselves on this issue. Boeing has been hitning at there being multiple frames for what falls into the 737 space now for even longer than a year. It just seems that folks here seem to not want to listen for whatever reason (I'm really at a loss why).

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 39):
* A 2-2-2 seating is very very useless. It is nothing but an extra isle from the 3-3, and therefore causes unnecessary drag. A 205 and 230 seater with 3-2-3 would be just fine.

No it's not. It allows the airplane to be serviced faster during turn-around and makes load/unload times better as well. For an LCC that is music to their ears.

Also depending on the exact shape of the fusealge there need not be any aerodynamic penalty for going a bit wider. There may even be some benefits depending on the exact contouring of the body. (be creative and let your mind wander a little bit here).

I expect Y1 when it arrives may be vastly different than a lot of folks are thinking. I have no doubt there will be two options under Y1. A smaller capacity jets and a larger one.. the larger one is where I think things might get very interesting.
 
EI321
Posts: 5073
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:17 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 40):
To be sure, there are several different Section 41s:
C-135
707/720/727/737
747
757
767/777
787

Ahhh. I was refering to the 767/777 version.
 
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Stitch
Posts: 27645
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:34 am

I'm not sure LCCs would care about a second aisle to carry more passengers. Most seem to want 149 seats because it means only three FAs and boarding/disembarking via both Door 1L and Door 2L would be fast enough.

As to widebodies, the 787 is larger then the 767 because airlines wanted it that way, so perhaps there really is no longer a need for a 757-sized plane with 4000nm range. The US domestics are using them because it can perform the mission, period, not because it's the best plane for the mission. When they're healthy, they may very well want 787-8's on all the current 757-200 missions, even though the size will be larger. But then, that larger size allows more comfortable premium cabin seating which could help drive revenue.
 
Rheinbote
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 9:30 pm

RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:16 am

late 70s or early 80s...

Big version: Width: 640 Height: 384 File size: 89kb
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:41 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 41):
Boeing has been hitning at there being multiple frames for what falls into the 737 space now for even longer than a year. It just seems that folks here seem to not want to listen for whatever reason (I'm really at a loss why).

At the end of the day who knows what Boeing will actually do. They have the capabilities but will they want to address the low end of the market with a seperate fuse? Market conditions will dictate in 8-10 years.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 43):
I'm not sure LCCs would care about a second aisle to carry more passengers. Most seem to want 149 seats because it means only three FAs and boarding/disembarking via both Door 1L and Door 2L would be fast enough.

A 737RS with 2 aisles is feasible with only a marginal economic penalty. And at +220 pax at the top end the 2 aisles will greatly help with boarding disembarking and turn times as has already been mentioned...

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 41):
No it's not. It allows the airplane to be serviced faster during turn-around and makes load/unload times better as well. For an LCC that is music to their ears.
 
Rheinbote
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 9:30 pm

RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:47 am

7J7 Propfan vs SuperFan (Aviation Week 2 Feb 1987)

Big version: Width: 640 Height: 478 File size: 105kb
 
osiris30
Posts: 2681
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:16 am

RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:53 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 43):
Most seem to want 149 seats because it means only three FAs and boarding/disembarking via both Door 1L and Door 2L would be fast enough.

I think many would love 199 seats and 4 FAs btu still just two upfront  Wink
 
baron95
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:19 am

RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:40 am

Quoting SirOmega (Reply 3):
A 2-2-2 config seems unlikely since you'll be carrying around more extra weight and there is no way you're going to increase turn time enough to compensate

You are severelly underestimating how much an extra isle will speed up boarding. The bottle neck is NEVER the jetbridge and the door. It is ALWAYS people standing in the aisles, waiting to store their bags and waiting for already seated passengers to mover out of their seats to scoot over them. An extra isle, and the extre overheard space provided by a wider fuselage will do wonders. Fast turns, means a lot. More efficient gate us, less on-duty time by the crew, less APU/groud power times, better aircraft utilization, better customer sat, etc.

I do favor, strogly a 2-2-2 with very narrow ailes for the 125-150-175 variation and 2-3-2 (767 width) for the 175-200-225 variation (with overlap at 175). Certified as a single type/family a la 757/767.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 4):
re-engine the current A320 family with the new engines which may be available by 2011 already

You are understimating the benefits of lower maintenance, longer life, lower mannufacturing costs of composites. Fuel savings are just one of the factors in lower CASM by composite barrel technology. I'm willing to venture that for a 737-sized airliner, weight savings of composits will be minimal - on the order of 2000 lbs or less. The real advantage are "the other stuff". A re-engined A320 against a composite 737RS (with its 787 big sister) will be an ugly second choice for airlines.
 
thebry
Posts: 339
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:50 am

RE: ATW:Boeing May Offer Two 737 Replacements

Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:04 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 4):
2- AFTER Y1 has been introduced, come out with its own NSR to do the same as the A320 has done to the 737....

So... what exactly is it that the A320 has done to the 737? 737 hasn't been canceled; 737 continues to rack up record orders; 737 still has an incredibly healthy backlog. Do you mean to say the A320 has made the 737 into an overwhelming success? I do think I'm missing something here, so please elaborate.

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