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FA4B6
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B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:07 pm

"NEW YORK (CNN) -- After canceling nearly a quarter of its weekend flights, JetBlue said Monday that it will extend widespread cancellations, but said it plans to announce its own customer "Bill of Rights" after facing severe criticism from a Valentine's Day ice storm that snarled operations at its main hub in New York."

Full story: http://money.cnn.com/2007/02/19/news...es/jetblue/?postversion=2007021908

[Edited 2007-02-19 15:07:49]
"Leap! And the net will appear."
 
osiris30
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:15 pm

Quoting FA4B6 (Thread starter):
it will extend widespread cancellations

WTF for? How long do you need to move aircraft around?!?! There really must be something else to this.

As it is some folks have been unable to return home for 3 days now due to all the cancelled flights.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
nuggetsyl
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:41 pm

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 1):
WTF for? How long do you need to move aircraft around?!?! There really must be something else to this.

I would have to agree.
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:48 pm

This is certainly a great idea to help win back the public's trust. I read in the NYT that passengers will be paid "by the hour" if they end up stranded on a JetBlue plane, like this past Wednesday. It also says that JetBlue's own financial penalizations will be much tougher than anything Congress would allow, which proves to me that JetBlue is very serious about ensuring that something such as this never happens again.

Check out the article - there's so much information from Neeleman.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/19/business/19jetblue.html

I wouldn't write this airline off just yet. I'll have to buy the newspaper tomorrow while in Florida for more details because I won't have internet access. In fact, I'm flying JetBlue to FLL tonight...

JetBluefan1
 
WMUPilot
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:18 am

Flight Schedule will be operating at pretty close to 100% on Tuesday. I think the article is worded wrong. 190 planes and crews are being positioned around the system today to start back tomorrow. Crews are back at base and rested. I was in JFK this morning and things where running pretty darn smooth.
JetBlue - Bringing humanity back to air travel
 
IADLHR
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:33 am

I read the article and it seems like they were operating an a threadbare system that works well when things operate normally but watch out when they dont.

I wonder if anyone will lose their job over this.

However, the thing that really got to me was the reservatrion agents working from home. That just cracked me up. A few months ago a friend of mine had to call reservations and he told me he swore he heard a baby crying in the background. We kind of just laughed it off and now it seems like maybe it was true!!!!!

Are these reservation agents working from home in fact employees of Jetblue or are they "independent contractors"
If they are "independent contractors" how can Jetblue or any other company that employs "independent contrtactors"
make them work longer hours if need be? Interesting.
 
osiris30
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:39 am

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 5):
Are these reservation agents working from home in fact employees of Jetblue or are they "independent contractors"
If they are "independent contractors" how can Jetblue or any other company that employs "independent contrtactors"
make them work longer hours if need be? Interesting.

Many companies do that now with the advent of VOIP. A highspeed internet connection is all that's needed. And honestly I don't see why you SHOULDN'T do things like this. Since all the calls are routed through a central switch they can be monitored and recorded for any issues.

There's no need to force people to commute to a call center when they can just as easily and effectively work from home.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
IADLHR
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:46 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 6):
Many companies do that now with the advent of VOIP. A highspeed internet connection is all that's needed. And honestly I don't see why you SHOULDN'T do things like this. Since all the calls are routed through a central switch they can be monitored and recorded for any issues.

There's no need to force people to commute to a call center when they can just as easily and effectively work from

It all sounds good in theory but the company loses a great deal of control over its "employees' that way, which can affect customer relations and customer service as we are finding out.

Case in point the fatct that the airlines were unable to have the "employees" work overtime if need be so that the passengers and customers can be much better served.
 
osiris30
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:49 am

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 7):
It all sounds good in theory but the company loses a great deal of control over its "employees' that way, which can affect customer relations and customer service as we are finding out.

No they don't. I would suggest you aren't aware of the tools available for remotely monitoring these employees. They are just as good as the tools available if your employees are sitting in a call center somewhere.

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 7):
Case in point the fatct that the airlines were unable to have the "employees" work overtime if need be so that the passengers and customers can be much better served.

You can't force anyone to work overtime under most employment laws in North America. There *are* exceptions to this rule, but call center agents would NOT fall under that category. There is nothing you could do to stop the employees from going home. The fact that they work from home means they would likely be MORE able to work overtime for an hour or two.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
WMUPilot
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:54 am

The reservations agents you talk with are jetblue crewmembers working from home. David thought this would be a great way to save money by not having a centralized call center and allowing moms or dads the ability to earn a paycheck while staying at home and raising the children.

I, personally, think David is being very forward about what happened and what will happen. I'm glad to see the company is taking full blame for the meltdown over the weekend. We could have easily tried to pass of blame to PANYNJ or the weather or any of other factors, but instead David came out and said, we Fu*ked up royaly. I do think sweeping changes will occur in management down the road. We cannot suffer another disgrace like this one again. Like David said, the company grew but we never invested in upgraded software to help us prepare for an event like this. JetBlue will be walking around with it's tail between it's legs for a while trying to recover and recoup. It is going to be a long hard struggle for us to show that we have changed, and hopfully for the better.

I personally would like to thank all of our hard working crewmembers who put in those long hard hours over the weekend. I happened to be in System Operations on friday evening and it was a sobering experience. The amounts of stress those poor souls where under was tremendous. These weren't those responsible for the original problem but those who where trying to fix it. I flew with 10 different crews in 5 days. We had flight attendants from LGB, FLL, JFK, BOS, and even our trainers from MCO jumped into uniform and helped. All the frontline crewmembers pulled together and it was nice to see that kind of fellowship in that troubling time.

I hope that neither us nor any customer for any airline has to go through what we put our customers through over the weekend.
JetBlue - Bringing humanity back to air travel
 
floridaflyboy
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:02 am

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 7):
t all sounds good in theory but the company loses a great deal of control over its "employees' that way, which can affect customer relations and customer service as we are finding out.

Not so much. I saw a thing on TV about a year ago specifically about JetBlue's @ home reservations people. The company gives them all the tools and resources they need to do their jobs on a computer at their house. But, they still have a supervisor who they can contact if they need something, and who can contact them when something is wrong.
Good goes around!
 
richierich
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:56 am

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 3):
This is certainly a great idea to help win back the public's trust. I read in the NYT that passengers will be paid "by the hour" if they end up stranded on a JetBlue plane, like this past Wednesday. It also says that JetBlue's own financial penalizations will be much tougher than anything Congress would allow, which proves to me that JetBlue is very serious about ensuring that something such as this never happens again.

That's good news. It sounds like it is going to take something like this to win back the public confidence in the airline.
None shall pass!!!!
 
hiflyer
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:04 am

I find it highly disturbing that JetBlue would proudly proclaim a passenger bill of rights while they are still canceling flights due to their poor operational plan. That is a pr ploy of the worst possible....let them get back to running...fix their problems...and then try something...but not now. Smoke and mirrors already....that does not bode well.
 
exFATboy
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:07 am

Sounds to me like JetBlue has moved quickly to identify the causes of the "meltdown" and hopefully make the changes necessary. The "Bill Of Rights", while helpful, is just the public face - it's the behind the scenes changes, like enhanced communications and stronger management, that'll make the big difference.
 
IADLHR
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:11 am

Thinking about this debacle again, I dont understand something. Last year, about this time, the NYC area and the east coast had one of the worst snowstorms ever, something like 20 plus inches. Yet i dont recall hearing that Jetblue or any other airline having such a horrible, horrible fiasco on their hands. What has happened, in a years time, that created this meltdown at Jetblue?

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 13):
I find it highly disturbing that JetBlue would proudly proclaim a passenger bill of rights while they are still canceling flights due to their poor operational plan. That is a pr ploy of the worst possible....let them get back to running...fix their problems...and then try something...but not now. Smoke and mirrors already....that does not bode well.

I couldnt agree more. I wonder if their advance bookings and/or passenger cancellations have become rather pathetic or non existant and the sooenr they can get this bill of rights out, the sooner they can start to possibly increase their bookings.
 
aarbee
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:25 am

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 3):
This is certainly a great idea to help win back the public's trust. I read in the NYT that passengers will be paid "by the hour" if they end up stranded on a JetBlue plane, like this past Wednesday. It also says that JetBlue's own financial penalizations will be much tougher than anything Congress would allow, which proves to me that JetBlue is very serious about ensuring that something such as this never happens again.

This is amazing. I think the guy is really concerned. It not quite many times we see CEOs of companies being such open and accepting about the debacle.

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 5):
However, the thing that really got to me was the reservatrion agents working from home. That just cracked me up. A few months ago a friend of mine had to call reservations and he told me he swore he heard a baby crying in the background. We kind of just laughed it off and now it seems like maybe it was true!!!!!

I thought it's a well known fact that significant number of B6's reservation staff works from home.
Love the AIXes
 
ejmmsu
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:29 am

The compensation aspect of this new "bill of rights" is just hot air, and an embrassing slap in the face to all the passengers screwed over this weekend, if its not made retroactive to this weekends events.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
Falcon84
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:29 am

I like the idea that JetBlue is starting their own "Bill of Rights". Maybe other carriers will follow, and it will keep the government out of the business of airlines, where they don't need to be in the first place.

But, with that, each airline should also present a "Customer Bill of Responsibilities" along with it, along the lines of the things I presented on here not long ago.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
WMUPilot
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:31 am

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 15):
Thinking about this debacle again, I dont understand something. Last year, about this time, the NYC area and the east coast had one of the worst snowstorms ever, something like 20 plus inches. Yet i dont recall hearing that Jetblue or any other airline having such a horrible, horrible fiasco on their hands. What has happened, in a years time, that created this meltdown at Jetblue?

We weren't as big a year ago as we are today. Remember we over expanded and added dozens of cities and planes last year. JFK is out of gate space, period, yet we still keep on adding flights. If one departure bank is delayed an hour then the inbounds are going to have no place to park, that is the fundamental problem. to many cities and flights and no more room. That is one of the main causes for this years implosion. The outbound bank couldn't takeoff because of the ice and the inbound bank was already on it's way. When many outbound flight gate returned the inbounds had no where to go.

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 15):
I couldnt agree more. I wonder if their advance bookings and/or passenger cancellations have become rather pathetic or non existant and the sooenr they can get this bill of rights out, the sooner they can start to possibly increase their bookings.

Right now the flights are full because we still have some customers to get to their final destinations. Flights are showing pretty good bookings right now, but whether that changes I can't perdict. You know how fickle the traveling public is. They may come back because of a fare sale or they may stay away for fear of another meltdown, personally I don't blame them. We have shown we can't face a minor, this wasn't a major weather even, storm and come out ready to continue forward.
JetBlue - Bringing humanity back to air travel
 
mcdu
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:33 am

B6, is just having to deal with what it takes to run an airline. DN has lost credibility with the pax and the employees. He can accept the blame all he wants but at the same time he let this disaster occur. As a result the rest of the airlines will have to react to his bill of rights. If B6 would just play by the rules, have interline agreements, not do transcon turn test without proper faa approval and various other indiscretions then they might not be in this mess in the first place.

Peoples Express is looking very familar right now. They imploded at EWR with some issues very similar to this.
 
Logos
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:38 am

Quoting Aarbee (Reply 17):
This is amazing. I think the guy is really concerned. It not quite many times we see CEOs of companies being such open and accepting about the debacle.

While this is indeed refreshing, I agree that the timing is suspect given that even today, five days after the event, more than 1/5th of jetBlue's flights are cancelled. Though Neeleman is saying some of the right things, it's still an open question whether he can preside over an operation of this size and complexity and run it correctly. He has yet to accomplish that at any time in his career.

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando
Too many types flown to list
 
dartland
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:39 am

Quoting Aarbee (Reply 17):

I thought it's a well known fact that significant number of B6's reservation staff works from home.

It is. And it works. B6 has one of the highest customer satisfaction ratings in the industry, in large part due to the friendly voices on the other end of the phone. The meltdown this weekend had nothing to do with them. The only problem was that there weren't enough of them to handle the volume, but that would have happened in any situation, as it was pointed out above, you can't just force reps in a call center to stay longer either!

And I second EmSeeEye above -- please keep your religious comments off this board. Feel free to be intolerant of airline industry views, but all else requires tact and respect at all times. You should be censured, if not booted from this site, for your inappropriate comments.
 
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spinkid
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:39 am

What's wrong with a reservations agent working at home with a baby. I can remember TWA had a call center located in a prison. Those guys were usually very friendly since they didn't have many people to talk to on the outside.

It beats calling India where the agents don't even know the geography of the U.S.
 
skyyblue
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:50 am

Quoting WMUPilot (Reply 9):
I personally would like to thank all of our hard working crewmembers who put in those long hard hours over the weekend. I happened to be in System Operations on friday evening and it was a sobering experience. The amounts of stress those poor souls where under was tremendous. These weren't those responsible for the original problem but those who where trying to fix it. I flew with 10 different crews in 5 days. We had flight attendants from LGB, FLL, JFK, BOS, and even our trainers from MCO jumped into uniform and helped. All the frontline crewmembers pulled together and it was nice to see that kind of fellowship in that troubling time.

I've tried and tried. You are ridiculous. Do you have an I.V. hooked up to your veins feeding you bluejuice? Are you David Neeleman's son? What a crock of shit. I personally know people working in HQ that are fed up and tired of the bullshit. This DID NOT HAVE TO HAPPEN. B6 had one whole year to fix the problems from last years "meltdown" , instead things only got worse. You always try to make things look so rosy over here at B6 inhouse when it is NOT SO. It is nice that you are so positive, but how about being a little more realistic.
 
IADLHR
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:51 am

Quoting Dartland (Reply 23):
. B6 has one of the highest customer satisfaction ratings in the industry, in large part due to the friendly voices on the other end of the phone. The meltdown this weekend had nothing to do with them. The only problem was that there weren't enough of them to handle the volume

So I guess that will be one of the problems that needs to be addressed. It would seem to me that in case of emergencies and massive flight disruptions, there has to be a way of increasing the number of reservationists on duty to better handle the frustrated and stranded passengers.
 
aarbee
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:58 am

Quoting Dartland (Reply 23):
t is. And it works. B6 has one of the highest customer satisfaction ratings in the industry, in large part due to the friendly voices on the other end of the phone. The meltdown this weekend had nothing to do with them. The only problem was that there weren't enough of them to handle the volume, but that would have happened in any situation, as it was pointed out above, you can't just force reps in a call center to stay longer either!

I never questioned whether it worked or not. Haven't the faintest idea. I was just stating the fact from what I remembered.

Quoting Dartland (Reply 23):
And I second EmSeeEye above -- please keep your religious comments off this board. Feel free to be intolerant of airline industry views, but all else requires tact and respect at all times. You should be censured, if not booted from this site, for your inappropriate comments.

Dartland, Please check. I did not make any religious comments. Please do not drag me into this.
Love the AIXes
 
WMUPilot
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:09 am

Quoting SKYYBLUE (Reply 25):
I've tried and tried. You are ridiculous. Do you have an I.V. hooked up to your veins feeding you bluejuice? Are you David Neeleman's son? What a crock of shit. I personally know people working in HQ that are fed up and tired of the bullshit. This DID NOT HAVE TO HAPPEN. B6 had one whole year to fix the problems from last years "meltdown" , instead things only got worse. You always try to make things look so rosy over here at B6 inhouse when it is NOT SO. It is nice that you are so positive, but how about being a little more realistic.

Your the one that is ridiculous, did I ever say i appreciated management? NO! I said thank you to the crews that I worked with. They all could have been sour and rude and horrible to be around but no, they kept their professionalism and suffered through the hardship. Come on, jesus have some friggn common sense here. Did I say people weren't Fed up with managment? Did I say that this wasn't jetblue's fault? Use that little skill called reading and comprehension. Yes it was a crock that should have never happened and we never should have been put through what we where put through, but I said thank you for the crews (flight attendants and pilots) for making it some what bearable. Get a clue!
JetBlue - Bringing humanity back to air travel
 
n844aa
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:18 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 1):
As it is some folks have been unable to return home for 3 days now due to all the cancelled flights.

I do a lot of commuting between New York and Houston, but so far I've been reluctant to use B6 for my traveling needs. This situation demonstrates exactly why. If I had taken CO out of IAH, or AA through DFW, there's no way I would have been stuck away from home for three days. Barring a hundred-year blizzard, there's no way an airline with multiple hubs couldn't have found some way to get me back in a fraction of the time. But with only a few flights a day and no interline agreements, if I'm on B6 I'm going to be SOL next time operations break down.

I'm not saying I won't fly them in the future -- surely, a better airline will be the result of this meltdown -- but it boggles my mind that there are something like a dozen destinations (including HOU and AUS) that have seen no B6 service since this ordeal began.
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
FATFlyer
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:23 am

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 5):
However, the thing that really got to me was the reservatrion agents working from home.

More and more common in all industries. Some call it homeshoring (as opposed to offshoring), others call it telecommuting.

For example, Convergys has a work-at-home program for call center agents in Chattanooga, TN; Pocatello, ID; and Moore, OK.

Others with similiar programs include Office Depot (they closed most of their call centers in favor of work at home agents), 1-800-FLOWERS, J. Crew, McKesson, Wyndham hotels, Sears, etc. I've heard Virgin Atlantic has a similiar program but I'll let someone who knows for sure confirm that.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
lowecur
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:30 am

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 5):
wonder if anyone will lose their job over this.

Look no further than Mr. Neeleman himself.

He has been under intense pressure to perform, since on his watch the airline yield mgt has suffered the past few years. He is a notorious micro-manager who will oversee underlings to the point of doing it himself if he feels the performance of the department is not up to his standards. The problem with that style, is managers feel like they cannot make decisions and moral suffers. Mr. Neeleman has plenty of good ideas for a startup, but he has proven to be a liability as the airline matures. I'm sure Herb Kelleher must be saying I told you so, after releasing Neeleman from SWA many years ago.

It has been projected by analysts that B6 will lose 6 cents per share, but it is my feeling it will cost them between 10 and 12 cents per share. In an area such as NYC, you are the darling of the media if you do everything right......but if you screw up, you will pay for it in spades.

I look for the BOD to give serious thought to releasing Mr. Neeleman and some of his mgt team in the next 60 days. I'm not so sure Barger is up to the task, since he to must be held accountable for this snafu. The hard questions will be asked by the BOD to the director of flt operations in the next few weeks. It will be interesting to see if Mr. Neeleman procrastinated on installing a more viable flt operations software system at the recommedation of the director of flt operations. Mr. Neeleman had this same problem on yield mgt, where he finally relented and purchased the expensive system to oversee this vital function.
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:33 am

Quoting WMUPilot (Reply 9):
The reservations agents you talk with are jetblue crewmembers working from home.

I can hear it now.

"Yes, Mr. Smith. We have you booked in seat 14A...hold on.... ( JIMMY! Put down that knife. Your sister isn't a damned carving board!) Sorry, Mr. Smith. Where were we?"

Mark
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
richierich
Moderator
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:40 am

Quoting Lowecur (Reply 31):
Look no further than Mr. Neeleman himself.

He has been under intense pressure to perform, since on his watch the airline yield mgt has suffered the past few years. He is a notorious micro-manager who will oversee underlings to the point of doing it himself if he feels the performance of the department is not up to his standards. The problem with that style, is managers feel like they cannot make decisions and moral suffers. Mr. Neeleman has plenty of good ideas for a startup, but he has proven to be a liability as the airline matures. I'm sure Herb Kelleher must be saying I told you so, after releasing Neeleman from SWA many years ago.

It has been projected by analysts that B6 will lose 6 cents per share, but it is my feeling it will cost them between 10 and 12 cents per share. In an area such as NYC, you are the darling of the media if you do everything right......but if you screw up, you will pay for it in spades.

I look for the BOD to give serious thought to releasing Mr. Neeleman and some of his mgt team in the next 60 days. I'm not so sure Barger is up to the task, since he to must be held accountable for this snafu. The hard questions will be asked by the BOD to the director of flt operations in the next few weeks. It will be interesting to see if Mr. Neeleman procrastinated on installing a more viable flt operations software system at the recommedation of the director of flt operations. Mr. Neeleman had this same problem on yield mgt, where he finally relented and purchased the expensive system to oversee this vital function

A very interesting post and I'm glad to see some serious thought was put into it.
I happen to think that this will not cost Neeleman his job. After all, he is the figurehead of JetBlue and perhaps he is the one person who can guide the airline through this. I'm not saying that somebody doesn't get thrown under the bus for this, but I don't think it will be DN.

As for the company's long-term survival, there is no question in my mind that it will be able to move beyond this week, provided that some of the short-comings are addressed. I'm sure there were some loyal JetBlue passengers who were permanently turned off, but I believe the public generally has a short memory of these things after the dust has settled and appropriate actions have been taken. The self-imposed JetBlue Bill of Rights is not the answer I'd be looking for, but it is a step in the right direction.
None shall pass!!!!
 
FA4B6
Topic Author
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:42 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 19):
But, with that, each airline should also present a "Customer Bill of Responsibilities" along with it, along the lines of the things I presented on here not long ago.

Welcome to my RUL. The handholding is a little out of control.
"Leap! And the net will appear."
 
lowecur
Posts: 512
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:18 pm

RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:48 am

Quoting WMUPilot (Reply 20):
We weren't as big a year ago as we are today. Remember we over expanded and added dozens of cities and planes last year. JFK is out of gate space, period, yet we still keep on adding flights. If one departure bank is delayed an hour then the inbounds are going to have no place to park, that is the fundamental problem. to many cities and flights and no more room. That is one of the main causes for this years implosion. The outbound bank couldn't takeoff because of the ice and the inbound bank was already on it's way. When many outbound flight gate returned the inbounds had no where to go.

That's why they are expanding the NYC area. They need to reduce many of the direct flts from JFK to their Florida markets, and hopefully it should take off some of the pressure. The FAA has attached a amendment as part of a large bill being submitted by the Bush Administration that will auction off landing rights at LGA. I truly hope this passes and gets rid of most the RJs that have turned that airport into a nightmare. It should also be wonderful for Jetblue.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/18/ny...gion/18laguardia.html?ref=nyregion

Jetblue has needed a midwest hub for quite a while to relieve some of the pressure on JFK. They also need to start more direct flts to Florida (particularyl MCO) from upstate. I don't know what's holding up the procurement of those gates at MCO. They are running 190 flts at 50% capacity from PIT, RIC, and other cities to JFK in an effort to stimulate those markets before expanding. Run those planes n/s from BUF, ROC, SYR, and other small NE cities to TPA, MCO, PBI, and FLL. They would do much better and free up JFK. DL also clogged up JFK with their RJs. Gees, I wished they had agreed to be bought out....what a pain.

[Edited 2007-02-19 19:58:56]
 
JBLUA320
Posts: 3088
Joined: Mon May 27, 2002 8:51 am

RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:00 am

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 18):
The compensation aspect of this new "bill of rights" is just hot air, and an embrassing slap in the face to all the passengers screwed over this weekend, if its not made retroactive to this weekends events.

It doesn't need to be made retroactive. Passengers who have been severely affected by this weather system have been compenstated thoroughly, with refunds or rebooking options plus free vouchers.

Something tells me that in a month from now, planes will still be flying full with healthy yields. jetBlue isn't infallible, but when the dust settles and the public realizes their options (presented to them either by their travel agents or what their wallets will allow), jetBlue will be re-promoted to "media darling" status in no time.

Lose some customers for life? Sure... Gain some more tomorrow? I think so.

JBLU
 
richierich
Moderator
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:08 am

Quoting SKYYBLUE (Reply 36):
Not really , I'm just typing what others have been thinking for a long while. You need to cut your I.V./ambilocal cord to JetBlue. It's NOT THAT GREAT, it REALLY is JUST ANOTHER AIRLINE.

Somebody's a little disgruntled, eh???
Well, truthfully, JetBlue has been acting just like any other airline since at least Wednesday. I think a lot of people held them to higher standards of what was expected from a basic coach ticket - now their name is mud and it will take time to bring these people back.

But, SKYYBLUE, I ask - if you are a JetBlue employee, your bad attitude is certainly not going to help. Perhaps you don't care, but I believe that most employees of the airline do care and are committed to making this situation right. JetBlue was not alone in stranding passengers on Wednesday, and they have obviously not done very well since then either. There is a lot of blame to go around the whole company - but an attitude like the one you display is of little help. If you a truly a JetBlue FA, then you should leave as soon as you can and take your little attitude problem with you.
None shall pass!!!!
 
richierich
Moderator
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:18 am

Quoting JBLUA320 (Reply 37):
Something tells me that in a month from now, planes will still be flying full with healthy yields. jetBlue isn't infallible, but when the dust settles and the public realizes their options (presented to them either by their travel agents or what their wallets will allow), jetBlue will be re-promoted to "media darling" status in no time.

Whoa! That's a significant statement to make, isn't it? I'm a big B6 fan but I think it will take a long time to regain the airline's "media darling" status again.

In general, the public will forget about this relatively quickly. Yes, some pax will hold true to their word and never rebook on JetBlue... no doubt some of them will forgive and come back when some other airline loses their bags too. I'm sure some pax will be leary about booking JetBlue for family vacations, etc., especially over April vacation and next February, but a lot of that will deal with how well the airline responds to the next big storm.

I say the next big storm, because all eyes will be on JetBlue when it comes. If there is even a hint that things didn't go well, the media will be all over it. But if things improve next time, the media will point that out (although we all know they'd prefer to watch a sinking ship).

Neelemann is going to have to prove that his company is run better the next time something like this happens. Public confidence is very shaky right now but it can be reversed over time. Getting new customers in may be more challenging too, but but over time it can work. Bottom line: JetBlue will survive.
None shall pass!!!!
 
skyyblue
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 8:37 am

RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:54 am

Quoting Richierich (Reply 38):
But, SKYYBLUE, I ask - if you are a JetBlue employee, your bad attitude is certainly not going to help. Perhaps you don't care, but I believe that most employees of the airline do care and are committed to making this situation right. JetBlue was not alone in stranding passengers on Wednesday, and they have obviously not done very well since then either. There is a lot of blame to go around the whole company - but an attitude like the one you display is of little help. If you a truly a JetBlue FA, then you should leave as soon as you can and take your little attitude problem with you

Yes, I am a B6 Employee. I do not have a bad attitude. I just like to see things as they are. This company messed up BIG TIME and it is my belief that they will pay for it. I was just sick of WMUPILOT (aka, the B6 CHEERLEADER) making it seem like things are so rosy over here behind closed doors. THEY ARE NOT. You dont know me, you dont know how I am with passengers, so dont assume that I am THE problem flight attendant that has an attitude. I am just fed up with the bullshit that upper management feeds us - and people like WMUPilot believe it and spread it like the holy gospel.

Quoting Richierich (Reply 38):
If you a truly a JetBlue FA, then you should leave as soon as you can and take your little attitude problem with you.

Actually, I am fine where I am. I do my job, I do it well, I have not had ONE customer complaint in my file....but I will also not BRAG about how many hundreds of compliments I have - give me a break.

[Edited 2007-02-19 21:00:22]

[Edited 2007-02-19 21:02:22]
 
WMUPilot
Posts: 1428
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:21 am

Oh I did have 1 question, do you have a background in journalism by chance? Honest question.
JetBlue - Bringing humanity back to air travel
 
N666FU
Posts: 135
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:10 am

RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:11 am

Quoting Richierich (Reply 36):
Well, truthfully, JetBlue has been acting just like any other airline since at least Wednesday.

No they haven't. Any other airline wouldn't have taken damn near a week to get their operations in order!

Quoting Richierich (Reply 36):
Perhaps you don't care, but I believe that most employees of the airline do care and are committed to making this situation right.

This is no different than any other airline.

Quoting Richierich (Reply 36):
If you a truly a JetBlue FA, then you should leave as soon as you can and take your little attitude problem with you

Because he's upset, question whether he's really an employee, and if he is, demand that he leaves.

You make Jetblue seems like a cult.

Quoting SKYYBLUE (Reply 39):
Yes, I am a B6 Employee. I do not have a bad attitude. I just like to see things as they are. This company messed up BIG TIME and it is my belief that they will pay for it. I was just sick of WMUPILOT (aka, the B6 CHEERLEADER) making it seem like things are so rosy over here behind closed doors. THEY ARE NOT. You dont know me, you dont know how I am with passengers, so dont assume that I am THE problem flight attendant that has an attitude. I am just fed up with the bullshit that upper management feeds us - and people like WMUPilot believe it and spread it like the holy gospel

Many, many FORMER Jetblue employees left for those reasons, and no one wanted to believe us. (Hi Rich  Wink ) They're listening now.

Quoting SKYYBLUE (Reply 39):
Actually, I am fine where I am. I do my job, I do it well, I have not had ONE customer complaint in my file....but I will also not BRAG about how many hundreds of compliments I have - give me a break.

I'm sure you are. Stick to your guns man, that's the only way things will change.

Quoting SKYYBLUE (Reply 40):
Quoting WMUPilot (Reply 39):
You prolly one of the weasles who didn't have the balls to have your face shown whiel you bashed the company on CH11.

This is how Jetblue treats it's employees who want change. I reposted it so it would be clear to everyone on the board.
KEPT DELTA OUR DELTA! Ask USAirPlatinum about it!
 
WMUPilot
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Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2003 2:48 am

RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:28 am

Quoting N666FU (Reply 43):
This is how Jetblue treats it's employees who want change. I reposted it so it would be clear to everyone on the board.

Wait what? Do you mean the company is forcing them to sneak onto TV to voice our plight? I just want to make sure I understood you right. Don't get me wrong, what they did really pissed off management, i wish i could have been a fly on that wall this morning. What they did needed to be done, but it's my personal belief that if you are going to do it at least let your name and face be known, the company wouldn't dare touch them for fear of the outcry from the rest of the crewmembers.

SKYY is right, things here aren't good for the crewmembers right now. I don't know how I got labled a cheerleader but whatever, things are going to change around here, one way or another. This recent implosion has done nothing but fuel the fire. I hope the company realizes how upset the inflight group is right now. They don't know how to operate in IROPS in our current size and we pay for it.
JetBlue - Bringing humanity back to air travel
 
jetblueatjfk
Posts: 1556
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:42 am

RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:03 am

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 14):
Thinking about this debacle again, I dont understand something. Last year, about this time, the NYC area and the east coast had one of the worst snowstorms ever, something like 20 plus inches. Yet i dont recall hearing that Jetblue or any other airline having such a horrible, horrible fiasco on their hands. What has happened, in a years time, that created this meltdown at Jetblue?

I think the problem here is that now B6 is much larger and this storm was pretty much pure ice that came down and was much harder to clear. Last year with the snow it could be cleared and they could keep on going. This year it took be 4 hours to shovel my sidewalk and 2 feet of the driveway before I gave up and went inside and got sick from over-working my body from chopping ice and like 2 feet of ice at the end of the driveway. Plane tugs kept freezing and not re-starting, planes needed to be de-iced again many times and the ATC told them a break was on the way so they could head out.

I think when the new terminal opens they'll ahve more room, but for now, they shouldn't expand out of JFK and leave room, plus if they leave T6 or partially demolish it, than they'll have room and they can have even more rom to spread out in other events.

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 19):
B6, is just having to deal with what it takes to run an airline. DN has lost credibility with the pax and the employees. He can accept the blame all he wants but at the same time he let this disaster occur. As a result the rest of the airlines will have to react to his bill of rights. If B6 would just play by the rules, have interline agreements, not do transcon turn test without proper faa approval and various other indiscretions then they might not be in this mess in the first place.

Peoples Express is looking very familar right now. They imploded at EWR with some issues very similar to this.

B6 is very different than Peoples Express and people keep comparing them but proven from before, they will not end up like them. Neeleman took responsibility from the beginning, I doubt some other airline CEO's would've taken responsibility right away, they could have passed it on to PANYNJ and ATC for saying and opening is coming. He could have placed blame many other places and he took it. Now I'm not saying that justifies everything and I do think they need to re work a lot of management and how things work. I don't think Neeleman should be fired at all. This is one glitch and yes people were stuck on the planes and they didn't react fast enough but seriously, it was people going to Aruba and Cancun and I'm not saying their not as important but they're still going to get there, and if not, they got full refunds and a whole round trip also free. To me, that doesn't sound as bad afterwards, now it doesn't make up for it, but I doubt at AA or NW or other places they would have refunded them, or if they did, a round trip free? Doubt it. NW cancels my brothers flights all the time for no reason, rebooks him on crazy out of the way routes from different NY airports, doesn't call him at all ands expects him to call them so they can tell him what they decided he should do that day. Though he still has to stay with them since NW is cheaper than Spirit by far these days on the LGA-DTW route. Anyway, what I'm saying is, what B6 did was very bad, but not life ending or career ending for people. They messed up, they are trying to fix it, clearly they need a lot of work to fix themselves up. What they need to do is fix themselves fast and have another storm so they can prove themselves. Now its supposed to go up into the 40's here in NY and who knows if it'll go back down to our below freezing for a month like before, but they need to prove themselves. They'll get through it as long as they fix themselves.

B6jfk airplane 
 
mcdu
Posts: 1672
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:29 am

Quoting JetBlueAtJFK (Reply 45):
they could have passed it on to PANYNJ and ATC for saying and opening is coming.

Oh I see it is the PANYNJ and ATC's fault for allowing the planes to stack up with no gates. The ice was pouring the temps were dropping and in the mind of the brain trust at B6 they felt water would not freeze below 32F? Is there some new method of physics that the rest of us are not made aware of that B6 operates under? There is no reason they should still be cancelling flights this far down the road from Wednesday. How is the ATC system in anyway at fault for this? I really gotta hear this one as it better be good. Was it the second controller from the grassy knoll?

It is the structure of the company, no interline agreements and stubborness of thinking they can operate outside of the laws of physics that has caused this. I can not beleive and airline with over 100 airplanes does not have recovery tool absent of shutting down and restarting?

Now let's start a thread about what are the next new cities for B6? I predict "financial" and "disaster" as the leading choices for the next destination for B6. If they had not tried the transcon turns, min fuel, min pay and various other bad for the industry ideas I would not be so hard on them. But in the end you reap what you sow.
 
N666FU
Posts: 135
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:10 am

RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:44 am

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 46):
It is the structure of the company, no interline agreements and stubborness of thinking they can operate outside of the laws of physics that has caused this. I can not beleive and airline with over 100 airplanes does not have recovery tool absent of shutting down and restarting?

Now let's start a thread about what are the next new cities for B6? I predict "financial" and "disaster" as the leading choices for the next destination for B6. If they had not tried the transcon turns, min fuel, min pay and various other bad for the industry ideas I would not be so hard on them. But in the end you reap what you sow.

Exactly....and the types of fares they sell are not going to cut it to take care of the expenses they're going to have to put into this. And it's not just financial. This is going to take a change in the way they do business, and the company's philosophies as well.
KEPT DELTA OUR DELTA! Ask USAirPlatinum about it!
 
User avatar
spinkid
Posts: 1908
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 5:59 am

RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:58 am

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 24):
B6 has one of the highest customer satisfaction ratings in the industry, in large part due to the friendly voices on the other end of the phone. The meltdown this weekend had nothing to do with them. The only problem was that there weren't enough of them to handle the volume

So I guess that will be one of the problems that needs to be addressed. It would seem to me that in case of emergencies and massive flight disruptions, there has to be a way of increasing the number of reservationists on duty to better handle the frustrated and stranded passengers.

I don't think this a problem unique to jetBlue. Every airline has reduced its call center and phone reservation staff in the wake of the internet, They all want you to book via the internet, make changes via the internet, even check in via the internet. A friend was trying to book travel with a pet via Delta on Valentine's day and couldn't figure out why she was on hold for 25 minutes. I reminded here about the snowstorm, so clearly they were overhwlmed last week too.
 
richierich
Moderator
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RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:18 am

Quoting N666FU (Reply 47):
This is going to take a change in the way they do business, and the company's philosophies as well.

Just like some of you have been saying for years? At what point do you have to think that JetBlue is different enough to work? One storm and one gigantic mess, and you rest your case? Geez - I would need more convincing than that. But I forgot... who better to trust than a former employer?!?!
None shall pass!!!!
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:26 am

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 13):
Sounds to me like JetBlue has moved quickly to identify the causes of the "meltdown" and hopefully make the changes necessary. The "Bill Of Rights", while helpful, is just the public face - it's the behind the scenes changes, like enhanced communications and stronger management, that'll make the big difference.

Concur. When I am shopping for an airline trip, I'm not going to be moved by a "BOR" that guarantees me payment if I'm delayed. I'm going to pick the airline that I believe will get me to my destination with a minimum of delay.

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 16):
The compensation aspect of this new "bill of rights" is just hot air, and an embrassing slap in the face to all the passengers screwed over this weekend, if its not made retroactive to this weekends events.

Good point. What I'd rather see from JetBlue instead of a passenger BOR is how they plan to make sure their operations don't go into the shitter next time there is a bad storm.

Quoting N844AA (Reply 27):
I do a lot of commuting between New York and Houston, but so far I've been reluctant to use B6 for my traveling needs. This situation demonstrates exactly why. If I had taken CO out of IAH, or AA through DFW, there's no way I would have been stuck away from home for three days. Barring a hundred-year blizzard, there's no way an airline with multiple hubs couldn't have found some way to get me back in a fraction of the time. But with only a few flights a day and no interline agreements, if I'm on B6 I'm going to be SOL next time operations break down.

Last time I flew Southwest, I was in Houston trying to get back to BWI, and a huge thunderstorm had closed Hobby for about an hour and a half. our nonstop was cancelled, but I got home that day on a creative 2 stop routing. Southwest might be the equivalent of a greyhound bus, but I don't every remember WN keeping people on a plane for 8 hours sitting on the ground.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
positiverate
Posts: 1543
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 10:35 pm

RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:35 am

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 3):
I read in the NYT that passengers will be paid "by the hour" if they end up stranded on a JetBlue plane, like this past Wednesday.

This, in my opinion, could be a problem. This reminds me of the Braniff "fast buck" marketing ploy back in the 60's. They installed clocks in all aircraft passenger cabins, and if the plane was late, customers were entitled to a "Fast Buck" token, good for their next trip on Braniff. ("The first airline with the guts to put clocks in all their cabins" was the marketing line). Some at Braniff believe this makreting scheme caused the crash of flight 352 in 1968 when the pilot flew into bad weather in an effort to meet the schedule. The argument is argument is that the pilot took undue risks to get to Dallas on-time. While a different marketing idea, could this threat of financial penalty to the company cloud some B6 crews' judgement in how they operate? Maybe, maybe not.

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 3):
It also says that JetBlue's own financial penalizations will be much tougher than anything Congress would allow, which proves to me that JetBlue is very serious about ensuring that something such as this never happens again.

Never underestimate Congress. They can be pretty punitive if they choose to.

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 3):
This is certainly a great idea to help win back the public's trust.

For now it is only rhetoric. When the actions back up their talk, they'll win back the public's trust.

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 3):
which proves to me that JetBlue is very serious about ensuring that something such as this never happens again.

Again, does doing this address the root causes for what happened the past 5 days? I don't think so.
 
N666FU
Posts: 135
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:10 am

RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:43 am

Quoting Richierich (Reply 49):
Just like some of you have been saying for years?

Yep!

Quoting Richierich (Reply 49):
At what point do you have to think that JetBlue is different enough to work?

They're becoming less and less different at each turn of events. Other airlines have been "making it work" for 5 times as long as Jetblue has been in business. Join us!  Wink

Quoting Richierich (Reply 49):
One storm and one gigantic mess, and you rest your case? Geez - I would need more convincing than that.

Downplaying the incident again. Look beyond the "one storm". There is no way it should take nearly a week to recover from something like that. That is a glaring deficiency in operations that even an aviation novice can see. It's cause by the hiring process, the managerial system, and how they do business.

I know you still want to believe that everything is rosy where you work. It's not, and it hasn't been for a while, as people have been telling you. Without some major structural changes, get ready for more "storms".
KEPT DELTA OUR DELTA! Ask USAirPlatinum about it!
 
JetBlueAUS
Posts: 852
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:15 am

RE: B6 To Announce Its Own "Bill Of Rights"

Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:44 am

Quoting SKYYBLUE (Reply 39):
Yes, I am a B6 Employee. I do not have a bad attitude. I just like to see things as they are. This company messed up BIG TIME and it is my belief that they will pay for it. I was just sick of WMUPILOT (aka, the B6 CHEERLEADER) making it seem like things are so rosy over here behind closed doors. THEY ARE NOT. You dont know me, you dont know how I am with passengers, so dont assume that I am THE problem flight attendant that has an attitude. I am just fed up with the bullshit that upper management feeds us - and people like WMUPilot believe it and spread it like the holy gospel.

To be honest, if you are so unhappy with JetBlue take this oppurtunity and leave. WMUPilot is merely looking at this situation with more of an optimistic side. Now, I understand that this might be hard for you to believe since it looks like you have a very pessimistic outlook. JetBlue has definitely messed up, and I know that they made some rough decisions these past few weeks. If I was one of those passengers that was stuck on the runway for eight hours, I know I would be more than frustrated with the company. However, I give the management kudos for accepting ALL the blame, not some... but ALL the blame. The employees are also trying to compensate the passengers as best as they can. They are trying to correct the problem as best as they can... by coming out with this "Bill of Rights." I do not think we will see this kind of meltdown occur at JetBlue again. You can either be an employee that has realized their company has messed up and is trying to correct their main problem... Or you can be that employee that has this bitter outlook and wants to see the company pay for the mistake that has happened.

Quoting SKYYBLUE (Reply 39):
Actually, I am fine where I am. I do my job, I do it well, I have not had ONE customer complaint in my file....but I will also not BRAG about how many hundreds of compliments I have - give me a break.

I can't find where WMUPilot brags about how many compliments he has... Overreacting much?
Not all of us can be heroes, some of us can only stand on the sidewalk and clap as they go by.

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