My question is why does a 777 captain get paid more than a 737 captain? Doesn't the 737 captain have to perform more take offs and landings? I can understand getting paid more for senority, but is the really a big difference between flying a baby boeing and big boeing? Please feel free to include Airbus products into the mix.

It's all about responsibility

Your responsible for more passengers.

Because theres less to do .. no thats the way it always has been work your way up from a smaller to a larger plane, but its experiance and primarley senority kicks in.... I believe if say a 747 captn goes back to say a 737 he is paid the max
that is allowed per hr in that aircraft.

Quick related question --

What pilots have the highest annual pay rates in the US today?

E.g., AA 777 captains? UA 747 captains? NW 747 captains?

How much are these guys making now?

Quoting JRadier (Reply 1): It's all about responsibility

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 2): Your responsible for more passengers

Mechanics don't get paid more if they are working on a 737 or a 777......!!!!! It's the same responsibility....if not more so.....!! They are resposable for the passengers and the crew.

Quoting Ssides (Reply 4): What pilots have the highest annual pay rates in the US today?

Try FedEx or UPS .........

For pay rates, go here, click on the airlines listed or to the right under "airline profiles" to get other pay rate info. I googled pilot pay rates.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 5): Mechanics don't get paid more if they are working on a 737 or a 777......!!!!! It's the same responsibility....if not more so.....!! They are resposable for the passengers and the crew.

The IAM was not as convincing as ALPA. In the 70's, the IAM lost a Notice to Propose Rule Making (NPRM) to create an aircraft type certificates for mechanics. The economic results would have killed the industry.

It all has to do with liability.

The 737 pilot may move 250 people a day, in 4 or so flights, and the 777 pilot may move the same amount of folks in one flight.

Both pilots had the same amount of lives at stake.

But the 777 pilot has the biggest single liablity at one time- a pilot won't crash more than one airliner in a day, hopefully.

Both have to be extremely competent, and have immense responsiblity, but one seat commands more responsibility, senority, and pay than the other.

DeltaGuy

Don't forget the prestige factor, or: "My schwanz is bigger than yours..."

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 7): For pay rates, go here

  

This website is okay for a rough estimate.

FX MD11 Capt with hire date of 1983 makes almost $300,000.
AA 757/767 Capt with hire date of 1979 makes $275,000.

  

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 8): The economic results would have killed the industry.

I have to take issue with that-the market would have adjusted. But it might have had unpleasant effects and led to non-union airlines (i.e.LCC's) emerging sooner and more powerfully driving out more legacy carriers sooner.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 10): Don't forget the prestige factor, or: "My schwanz is bigger than yours..."

  
You got it.

Quoting FXramper (Reply 11): This website is okay for a rough estimate.

Sorry everyone.

www.airlinepilotcentral.info/airlines/legacy.html

Seems like a pretty good rough estimate, but it will help those who want to know figure it out.

Quoting Sacamojus (Thread starter): My question is why does a 777 captain get paid more than a 737 captain?

Because size does matter......all kidding aside, it has to do with seniority and negotiated pay scales, and the fact that the most senior pilots fly the largest airliners.

Quoting FXramper (Reply 11): FX MD11 Capt with hire date of 1983 makes almost $300,000. AA 757/767 Capt with hire date of 1979 makes $275,000.

How did you get those numbers..... My math is showing less then that. You know flight crews don't work the 2020 hour year we do... they work (fly) 1/2 that.

If it based on passengers a pilot is responsible for, then why do the cargo airlines have the higher salaries?

[Edited 2007-02-20 00:46:12]

Quoting JRadier (Reply 1): It's all about responsibility

As well as productivity, as in moving more pax (equals more revenue) an equal number of miles in the same amount of time as pilots of smaller aircraft. Surprised this was nowhere mentioned in any of the 16 previous replies.

You make the assumption that all operators pay by weight. They do not. UPS pays strictly by seat and time (seniority).

Quoting Sacamojus (Thread starter): My question is why does a 777 captain get paid more than a 737 captain?

More so than any other profession I can think of (other than maybe the captain of an ocean liner), a pilots responsibility escalates given a normal path of time, successful execution of piloting and administrative duties, and professional conduct. The salary of a 777 captain has been earned through years (and years) of advancements. These advancements have been awarded as the pilot a) generates hours of experience gradually on larger and more sophisticated aircraft that carry more passengers and 2) conducts him/herself in a professional manner in line with company policy. This experience equates to his/her company trusting in their ability to handled larger aircraft and greater liability (passengers, more expensive equipment). Captains of large aircraft can command high salaries as the liability has increased significantly. Airlines are willing to pay for this experience and trust that their customer and equipment will get from point A to B without incident.

Quoting CitationJet (Reply 16): If it based on passengers a pilot is responsible for, then why do the cargo airlines have the higher salaries?

Because the air freight companies are in much better financial shape than the airlines.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 5): Mechanics don't get paid more if they are working on a 737 or a 777

You may not like my answer, but would have to answer this in the form of a question. Why didn't the mechanic pursue a career as a pilot? Does an airline mechanic - and I seriously don't know because I've never been one - get raises or bonuses if they, the company, or the division perform? Is there an opportunity for advancement and/or more pay in this field? If not, I'd consider another field. On the other hand, maybe they simply enjoy their profession.

Before lashing out at me, I sell further processed foods for a living and earn a modest income.

Quoting CitationJet (Reply 16): If it based on passengers a pilot is responsible for, then why do the cargo airlines have the higher salaries?

My guess is insurance. I know of no less than three prominant airlines who didn't make it after catastrophic accidents.

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 17): As well as productivity, as in moving more pax (equals more revenue) an equal number of miles in the same amount of time as pilots of smaller aircraft. Surprised this was nowhere mentioned in any of the 16 previous replies.

Good point. This is how the acting unions respond to questions like "Why does really famous actor X get paid $12 million for acting in a movie that only required 20 days of his time?" Well, famous actor X's name will help the movie make $30 million in sales...and he deserves a solid percentage of that. (Or, alternatively, the actor always deserves a certain percentage of the movie's profits, and that escalates with how popular the movie is.)

In either event, I see the point that if the spread is based on seniority and seniority also dictates the size of aircraft one can fly, then it will appear that there is a correlation between the size of aircraft flown and the pay.

I wonder if this difference is observable in an area with a lot of new pilots and new airlines--like the middle east, or India. I suspect not so much.

Hell, even Continental has pared their pay rates down to wide body versus single aisle. Since that implies that a 777 pilot makes the same as a 762 pilot with the same seniority, the whole responsible for more passengers thing gets thrown out the window.

Guys. Come on. It is all about union rules. Pay has NOTHING to do with responsibility.

The pay scales of 777/747 captains was cut by about 1/3 at most major US airlines since 9/11. Does that mean that their responsibility is now 1/3 less? Does that mean that they are now 1/3 less capable? Of course not.

Airline captain salaries (in the US and many other places) are an artificially maintained, non-competitive, union-imposed quantity. It has NO bearing on economic productivity, liability, skill or responsibility.

Captains of 777 make more money then captains of 737s because that is what the unions negotiated/imposed. Simple as that.

Is there a value for a certain number of years of experience? Yes. Do you need more experience to fly international routes than domestice ones? Yes. Is it taken into account in Airlines pay scale? NO. Example: Airforce officer with 15 years/15,000 hrs of experience flying C-5s or KC-10s all over the world, leaves the service, joins Delta airlines. How does he start? By UNION RULES on the right seat of the smalest aircraft in the fleet. John Q. Public, recent ERAU graduate, 1,000 hrs of flight instructor, 2,000 hours flying checks at night (total 3 years) joins Delta. How does he start? Same thing. Right seat of smallest fleet type. How do they advance? Simply by number of years in the company (assuming they are both decent pilots and don't screw up any check rides, etc).

It is all about UNION rules/distortions to the market place.

On the website provided above, anyone else notice Northwest has pay rates for 787 pilots in there? Interesting.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 15): How did you get those numbers..... My math is showing less then that. You know flight crews don't work the 2020 hour year we do... they work (fly) 1/2 that.

The website shows the hourly rate and the monthly "guarantee", in hours.

Assuming it's correct and current, an AA 757 captain with 10 years experience makes $166/hour x 64 hours/mo = $127,488 (plus per diem, plus international bonus (if any), plus any time over 64 hours/mo).

Interestingly, a Southwest captain with 10 years experience makes $181,584.

I don't know about what anyone else has said as being factual or not, but I know that the way it works in many airlines is more to do with the flight operations rather than aircraft equipment.

For example, if you are long-haul and complete high numbers of flight hours in a year you receive more money. Now as a coincidence, long haul aircraft are generally much larger due to the obvious reasons of not being able to operate smaller aircraft in the same manner. (i.e. range, slots, frequency and cabin design)

As a forgone conclusion, this is the basis for many pilot unions requesting salaries for pilot groups based on type rather than operation. Logistically, it would be too hard to negotiate agreements based on flight length as pilots swap around and operate varying routes all the time. Therefore, it may be considered easier to establish agreements based on the fact that for pilots operating large jets, they physically must operate longer sectors and be exposed to the same workload for a longer period of time. Then take into account checking and training requirements, annual leave and the most important of all, layover allowances. For international sectors, pilots generally receive a higher allowance rate for meals and the layover itself as opposed to on domestic sectors. This add's to the base salary and hence is another reason for the greater pay rate.

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 25): Interestingly, a Southwest captain with 10 years experience makes $181,584.

If I am not misteaken, WN pays their pilots (whom all fly the 737's) some of the highest, if not the highest wages in the US. After most majors imposed wage cuts on all their crew, the pilots of even wide body aircraft could have been cut below that of a 737 pilot at WN. Pretty impressive if you ask me, but after the hedges run out, can they raise fares enough to offset the costs?

I think it also has to do with seniority. I mean this in the sense that the most experienced guys seem to be on the bigger long haul aircraft. This pay MAY be due to the hard work and money spent during training particularily for those who has 'made it' through the 'civilian way'

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 28): I think it also has to do with seniority.

Well yes, but most senior pilots have the responsibility of being training and checking captains or even management pilots, senior base pilots and flight ops managers. These responsibilities are why senior pilots are paid more, usually an extra 18-30% on the average type captains base salary.

The math that works for me is to take the hourly rate multiply times .85 and then 100 for the annual pay.

140 per hour captain makes about $119,000 per year without a lot of open time.

it is a revenue thing:


More revenue = more pay for pilots.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 14): all kidding aside, it has to do with seniority and negotiated pay scales, and the fact that the most senior pilots fly the largest airliners.

That's the answer right there!

An ERJ pilot has 'responsibility' for far more people and performs many more takeoffs/landings (the most critical functions) than any long-haul pilot.

That's the way seniority works in airlines - that's all.
You start by flying the small planes, and work up to the big ones!

Jimbo

Unions is why. Airline would much rather just pay them nothing like a regional pilot.

It has nothing to do with responsibility at all. A B777 pilot has just as much responsibility as a B717 pilot and technically if a pilot can fly a B717 then he can be trained on a B777. Is the desire to survive and keep the pax safe higher on the B777 than on a Cesna 402, never, Its the same whether its 9 pax as it it is with 400 pax.

Pay has everything to do with revenue stream. The B777 drives more revenues with more seats so the pilot is part of a larger revenue stream resulting in the ability to compensate better. The smaller aircraft through the laws of supply and demand cannot accept the higher pay scale.

You must simply look at the pay as a function of RASM and available seats.
As the ability to pay higher is with the larger aircraft the more senior pilots get those positions.

If it were different and the pay was higher on smaller aircraft then most pilots would bid where the money is and the most senior aircraft would be the little ones. There is some prestige with being a B777 pilot or a A380 pilot but in the end it is about $$$$$$.

The historic justification has always been productivity. Revenue. Factor in responsibility if you want, but the word is productivity. WN alters the dynamic with it's homogeneous fleet, but I bet the concept is there via seniority, although I don't know for sure.

Pilots, at least at most unionized airlines, are paid according to what is essentially a weight/speed formula, the origins of which date back to the immediate post WWII period, when larger 4-engine aircraft appeared on the airline scene. The increased capacity and speed of the DC-4 and the Lockheed Constellation meant increased productivity for the airlines, and the pilot group, always astute in matters financial, determined to capture some of these productivity gains for themselves. Since seniority, by that time, had become the determining factor in the equipment an individual pilot flew, the senior pilots had the first opportunity to fly the now higher-paying 4-engine aircraft.

The move to weight/speed based pay scales was not embraced willingly by the airlines, but by the mid 1950's it was pretty much universally adopted. The foresight of the elders of ALPA was confirmed when, in the late 1950's, jet airliners that were at least twice as heavy and nearly twice as fast as the DC-6's and DC-7's burst upon the airline scene. The pay scales for the new jets fell naturally into place, guided by the weight/speed formula. Again, in the late 1960's and early '70s, the widebody jets created another jump in both productivity and pay. The system is still pretty much in place over a wide variety of airines, albeit modified over the years, and, of course, savaged by the economic climate post 9-11.

Nowdays, some airlines are contemplating variations on this theme, such as a simplified system based upon an average of equipment scales, divided into widebody and narrowbody. But the underlying basis for the construction of these systems is still the weight/speed concept. Over the decades, it has served the entire industry very well, ensuring, as it does by economic incentive, that the most experienced pilots generally migrate to the largest airplanes. Although many and varied arguments can be and have been made about the relative responsibility and difficulty of the job of pilot on various airplanes, the system has worked and worked well for over 50 years, which surely puts it in the realm of things that have successfully passed the tests of time!

Yep I know its more responsiblity to fly a bigger rather than a smaller plane-but which is more difficult and which takes more skill-(I don't know I'm just asking) Flying a 747 across the pond maybe five rountrips a month or flying a MD-80 on fifteen trips with two d trips through ORD on each trip?

You know what I'm getting at-It seems to us people int he back of the buss that the more experience one gets the less demanding the job gets and the higher the pay-where am I wrong?

Quoting Ssides (Reply 4): What pilots have the highest annual pay rates in the US today? E.g., AA 777 captains? UA 747 captains? NW 747 captains?

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 23): Is there a value for a certain number of years of experience? Yes. Do you need more experience to fly international routes than domestice ones? Yes. Is it taken into account in Airlines pay scale? NO. Example: Airforce officer with 15 years/15,000 hrs of experience flying C-5s or KC-10s all over the world, leaves the service, joins Delta airlines. How does he start? By UNION RULES on the right seat of the smalest aircraft in the fleet. John Q. Public, recent ERAU graduate, 1,000 hrs of flight instructor, 2,000 hours flying checks at night (total 3 years) joins Delta. How does he start? Same thing. Right seat of smallest fleet type. How do they advance? Simply by number of years in the company (assuming they are both decent pilots and don't screw up any check rides, etc). It is all about UNION rules/distortions to the market place.

absolutely. most people assume its the opposite. union union union...

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 20): Quoting CitationJet (Reply 16): If it based on passengers a pilot is responsible for, then why do the cargo airlines have the higher salaries? Because the air freight companies are in much better financial shape than the airlines.

Don't forget that cargo pilots are also more likely to be flying worse hours, as much of their movements are to a sort in the middle of the night, or from the sort in the wee hours of the morning.

Also, for more general cases, larger aircraft generally go farther. Consider a 737 pilot who can do 2 short round trips per day and go home. A 777 pilot flies one-way in more time, and is then thousands of miles away from home.

I was speaking with an LH 747 captain over the summer on a Friday afternoon, and this was his schedule:

Thursday: FRA-LAX
Saturday: LAX-FRA
Monday: FRA-JFK
Wednesday: JFK-FRA

All four of those flights are full-day trips, and on two of them, he's thousands of miles away from home for two nights. Doesn't that alone deserve a little more pay than an LH Regional pilot who gets to see his family every night?

Baron95 said it best, it's all about unions and bargaining power. I will add to that generic Corporate Culture, because useless top management also gets high pay with no discernible benefit to the product or service rendered.

The notion that responsibility is a factor is ludicrous. A crop duster pilot will make every attempt to save his/her own life in an emergency as a senior 747 crew!

I don't think it's responsibility, after all a Gulfstream pilot gets paid in some cases as much as a 747 captain for flying 2 or 3 people. It's all about the money. Depends on how much money the seats are generating.

Quoting B6WNQX (Reply 27): If I am not misteaken, WN pays their pilots (whom all fly the 737's) some of the highest, if not the highest wages in the US. After most majors imposed wage cuts on all their crew, the pilots of even wide body aircraft could have been cut below that of a 737 pilot at WN. Pretty impressive if you ask me, but after the hedges run out, can they raise fares enough to offset the costs?

No Fedex/UPS has the highest in the U.S and probably the world. A 2nd year FO at Fedex makes as much as a senior Jetblue captain for example, that's sad.

What most people are describing in this thread is a North American centric view. Much of the world is quite different.

At many airlines, pay is not based on the size of aircraft. It's mostly based on years of service. For example at SK, Captains with a lot of seniority may choose to just fly Europe routes on the 321 and get home pretty much every night. Same pay as a 340 Captain with the same seniority AFAIK.

Nevertheless when an Airline has Airbus aircraft in their fleet eg. Lufthansa with Airbus A319/20/21 for shot haul and the A330 /340's for long haul, captains are entitled to fly both long and short haul. However I think that the captains only flying the short haul planes still get less money, but the ones flying both get almost as much as the 744 pilots.

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 44): but the ones flying both get almost as much as the 744 pilots

I've heard this as well.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 32): An ERJ pilot has 'responsibility' for far more people and performs many more takeoffs/landings (the most critical functions) than any long-haul pilot.

A pilot flying an RJ does not have the same 'responsibility' for people as a long haul pilot flying a 767 or bigger. While he may carry as many people in a single day, due to the multiple legs, he/she is not responsible for as many people.

All that matters from that stand point is how many people are on the airplane. If an RJ pilot crashes, 50-70 people can potentially lose thier life. A 777 crash could kill 300+ people. Tell me again how an RJ pilot is responsible for more people?


Then add to that the cost of the airplane, the cost of the lawsuits, the book away factor from losing 70 people vs losing 250 people. Being responsible for a bigger crew.

The responsibility for a pilot on a larger airplane is much higher.

One other thing. I have noticed when airplanes at an airline get bigger, the airline often thinks its a great idea to pay the same (Airtran and Skywest are great examples), but when an airline gets smaller airplanes (Jetblue for example), suddenly they like the whole idea of pay based on equipment size.....and pay goes down for the new airplanes.

Quoting CV580Freak (Reply 6): Try FedEx or UPS .........

ABX Air (one of DHL's US carriers, and the former airline of Airborne Express) is right up there as well. In some cases they're higher than FedEx, I believe, but in others, they're lower.

Bigger plane=more people to transport safely.

Sometimes the bigger planes are harder to fly or take more work to operate. (just my opinion, no need to rattle me for that)

It all comes down to being responsible.

-DeltaJet757

Quoting Avallillo (Reply 36): Pilots, at least at most unionized airlines, are paid according to what is essentially a weight/speed formula, the origins of which date back to the immediate post WWII period, when larger 4-engine aircraft appeared on the airline scene.

Very clear and accurate explanation, Avallillo. I think a case could be made that the comuter crew flying 8 or 10 legs a day in all kinds of weather is working harder than the 3 or 4 pilot long haul crew on a 12 hour leg to a single landing, but in th U.S., at least, the big long haul airplane is going to get the bigger pay.