Largest City Without An Airline Hub

xjet · Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:34 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 47):
The definition of a hub is really as simple as what the airline wishes to call it.

I think that is a matter of opinion. I would say that WN has hubs in MCO, BWI, MDW, PHX, OAK, DAL, and HOU etc..... One of the biggest factors I would look at is whether or not they base flight crews there. By your arugument CO could just come out tomorrow and say IAH isn't a hub anymore, and not decrease flights and you would say, "yeah it isn't a hub". I mean, if it all goes off what the airline says..... Because they always frame everything with accuracy? I think not.

BigGSFO · Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:36 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 46):
Correct, there is no official definition, but you, like me, have your opinion - and you've chosen to let the airlines individually decide for you. That makes little sense when we compare the operation of multiple airlines.

I acutally agree. if there was a standard, then this discussion would be a lot less complicated. It does make it difficult to have an "apples-to-apples" comparision when the variables are not consistant.

xjet · Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:46 am

Quoting 777STL (Reply 49):
B6 is a point to point carrier ala WN, correct?

I don't really think that they are P2P to the point that they can be compared to WN. The majority of B6's flights begin or end at JFK.

I guess this really gets down to the definition of a "hub". There really is no set definition. That said, I don't think it is only a hub when the airline says it is. That implies that there is no quality individual to a "hub" outside of its title. AA could come along and say DSM is a hub. They wouldn't, but if they did, would you argue with me that it is?

CRGsFuture · Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:47 am

Quoting 777STL:
Not to sound like a broken record but, maybe because B6 themselves doesn't consider JFK a hub? Can you really argue that JFK is a hub versus a focus city as B6 classifies it? B6 is a point to point carrier ala WN, correct? By that definition doesn't that preclude any actual hubs?

Actually on their website JFK is a "focus city". What does that mean? Well for starters its there main base of operations with every destination in their B6 system reached. On top of which they have New York Based FA's and a Pilot Domicile.

By the way WN is a point to point traditional carrier. B6 is a developing point to point meaning it will spread from a central hub and start building on it. Ala what WN did from DAL.

highflyer9790 · Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:49 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 17):
LAX is a United hub, officially. So that's out. BOS is a focus city for AA, US, and DL, but nobody calls it a hub, so my vote goes to BOS.

BOS is huge O&D.... checkmark

tockeyhockey · Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:57 am

Quoting XJET (Reply 45):
Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 43):
ou do realize that boston is about the size of baltimore, right? i don't think it has more than 600,000 people.

But, the metro area has about 5.8 million people.

since when is this thread about metro areas?

tockeyhockey · Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:00 am

my guess is WUH.

wuhan has a population of almost 4 million, yet has no hub airline.

xjet · Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:01 am

Quoting Jetpixx (Thread starter):
(in terms of population/catchment area, etc)

Since this I guess. I tried to talk about JAX based on the terms of city population, and was promtly corrected here:

Quoting N200WN (Reply 22):
Those kind of stats are always fun to throw around, just like El Paso is bigger than Atlanta and San Antonio is larger than Dallas. But metro area population figures are much more accurate and I think more fun to look at as they give you a better idea of how many people really live "there." San Antonio is now the seventh largest city in the country, but the problem is there just aren't that many of us living outside the city limits in the surrounding hills.

N200WN · Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:21 am

Quoting XJET (Reply 23):
Point taken. I was just throwing another city into the mix.

Funny how SAT wasn't thrown into the mix either.

BTW...your new jetway was just installed yesterday at SAT, at gate 9.

Edit: I certainly mean to come off as correcting you XJ, because you were correct in the first place about the size of JAX.

[Edited 2007-02-21 20:28:13]

L.1011 · Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:32 am

Here's the authoritative list, by size of metropolitan area.

1. New York - AA?, CO, DL, focus for US, B6

2. Los Angeles - B6, UA

3. Chicago - UA, AA

4. Philadelphia - US

5. Dallas - AA, WN

6. Miami - AA

7. Houston - CO

8. Washington - UA

9. Atlanta - DL, FL

10. Detroit - NW

11. Boston - B6?

12. San Francisco - UA

13. Inland Empire - ?

14. Phoenix - US

15. Seattle - AS

16. Minneapolis - NW

17. San Diego - ?

18. St Louis - AA

19. Baltimore - WN?

20. Tampa - ?

21. Pittsburgh - US?

22. Denver - UA

23. Cleveland - CO

24. Portland, OR - ?

25. Cincinnati - DL

26. Sacramento - ?

27. Kansas City - ?

28. Orlando - ?

29. San Antonio - ?

30. San Jose - ?

31. Las Vegas - US?

32. Columbus - well, Skybus

33. Hampton Roads - ?

34. Indianapolis - ?

35. Providence - ?

36. Charlotte - US

37. Milwaukee - YV

38. Austin - ?

39. Nashville - ?

40. New Orleans - ?

41. Memphis - NW

42. Jacksonville - ?

43. Louisville - ?

44. Hartford - ?

45. Richmond - ?

46. Oklahoma City - ?

47. Buffalo - ?

48. Birmingham - ?

49. Rochester, NY - ?

50. Salt Lake City - ?

IMHO, San Diego would not be disputed. That leaves two questions.

1. Is jetBlue's Boston operation a hub? If not, then Boston wins.

2. Do you consider the Inland Empire, which BTW, would include ONT and PSP by the Census Bureau's definition, a seperate metro area from Los Angeles?

Thoughts?

xjet · Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:40 am

Quoting N200WN (Reply 58):
BTW...your new jetway was just installed yesterday at SAT, at gate 9.

Edit: I certainly mean to come off as correcting you XJ, because you were correct in the first place about the size of JAX

Don't worry I didn't take offense... you made a good point! I am gald we have a jetway in SAT now. There should be an announcement soon, but the rumor mill around the crew room suggests that SAT has been chosen over AUS as the second crew base for the XJET flying. We shall see....hopefully the local community in SAT will accept us with more open arms than UAX got!!

RDUDDJI · Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:58 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 24):
LAX is a hub for United..

True, to put it in perspective...LAX has 8 more mainline departures a day than IAD. It's definitely not a "fortress" hub, but a hub nonetheless.

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 56):
my guess is WUH.

TSN - Tianjin is slightly larger at 5,095,000 city pop...and by U.S. standards is critically underserved!

TransWorldSTL · Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:01 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 13):
IND isn't a hub for anyone.

It also isn't even near the busiest

xjet · Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:06 am

Quoting TransWorldSTL (Reply 62):
Quoting Indy (Reply 13):
IND isn't a hub for anyone.

It also isn't even near the busiest

However it is the next mega hub for FedEx when the new gigantic sorting facility is completed. This will be a major plus for IND.

777STL · Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:12 am

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 53):
Actually on their website JFK is a "focus city".

If you'd read what I wrote that you subsequently quoted, I said that.

Quoting XJET (Reply 52):
AA could come along and say DSM is a hub. They wouldn't, but if they did, would you argue with me that it is?

That's pretty extreme and unrealistic, wouldn't ya say? But taking BOS and AA for example. BOS could officially become a hub tommorrow and there'd be no difference operationally. In that respect, yes, I'd agree. This is why I contend that it's really based on what the airline determines its hub(s) to be. There are always qualitative factors here that the airline may have considered that we haven't. Future plans, strategic goals, political aspects, money, etc.

A342 · Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:15 am

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 56):
my guess is WUH.

wuhan has a population of almost 4 million, yet has no hub airline.

Wikipedia says the population is some 9.1 million, but nonetheless, it seems you're right.

The next might be CKG.

SWALoveField · Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:44 am

Quoting AustinAirport (Reply 20):
Austin is a large city

38th largest metro area in the USA. I wouldn't call Austin a large city and it is certainly not the largest without a HUB.

Robb
Dallas, TX

CXA330300 · Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:44 am

Quoting L.1011 (Reply 59):

24. Portland, OR - ?

Horizon has a hub of sorts at Portland.

Quoting L.1011 (Reply 59):
28. Orlando - ?

Allegiant ex-Sanford

Quoting L.1011 (Reply 59):

2. Do you consider the Inland Empire, which BTW, would include ONT and PSP by the Census Bureau's definition, a seperate metro area from Los Angeles?

No, Inland Empire is more the outer ring of LA.

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 56):
my guess is WUH.

wuhan has a population of almost 4 million, yet has no hub airline.

Wuhan municipality (bigger than city) total has 9.1m people, and no airline has more than a focus city there (CZ and MU have smallish focus cities at WUH). I think we have a winner.

steeler83 · Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:54 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 13):
Quoting Jetpixx (Thread starter):
AUS
BDL
BNA
CMH
MSY
SAN
TPA

IND isn't a hub for anyone.

Neither is PIT... used to be one for US, but they don't call it a hub anymore...

Quoting L.1011 (Reply 59):
13. Inland Empire - ?

I never heard of this. Where is this at?

Quoting L.1011 (Reply 59):
21. Pittsburgh - US?

Yeah, PIT is still a large base for US, but it is no longer a hub airport, and I don't think it will ever be a hub airport again...

b737700doctor · Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:27 am

Is BWI offically a hub for WN?

L.1011 · Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:40 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 68):
I never heard of this. Where is this at?

The Inland Empire is the most inland part of urbanized Southern California. It includes places like Riverside, San Bernadino, and Ontario. As you can see above, there is some controversy over whether it's part of Metro LA or not.

bimmerkid19 · Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:42 am

Quoting Flyingfool (Reply 3):
SIN is hub for Singapore Airlines and KUL for Malaysia Airlines...

i was referring to European Airlines that use them for dual destination flights. i.e for flights out of SIN and KUL you can buy a ticket for only fra to sin, LHR to sin, and LHR to hkg; on QF as well as also on KL you can also just buy a ticket KUL to JKT if you wish. This is what I meant. I am very aware that SIN and KUL are hubs.. but they arent hubs for QF and KL. The same is true for EK at several airports in Asia that have service to Downunder via them. You can also just buy a ticket from those airports to where they fly to in Australia or New Zealand... this is what i was getting at.

flylku · Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:45 am

Definition of Hub: Airport to be avoided - unless you're just there to take pictures and post them on this web site.

xjet · Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:21 am

Quoting 777STL (Reply 64):
That's pretty extreme and unrealistic, wouldn't ya say?

Of course it is extreme and unrealistic. I am just making a point. If the only definition of a hub is: "The airline calls it a hub", then "hub" really means nothing.

deltajet757 · Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:02 am

What about STL when TW left?

-DeltaJet757

naritaflyer · Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:30 am

How about YUL? This is not a hub of any airline. Given that it's a big city naturally there are several flights by AC but the city is not a hub of any airline.

777STL · Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:29 am

Quoting XJET (Reply 73):
Of course it is extreme and unrealistic. I am just making a point. If the only definition of a hub is: "The airline calls it a hub", then "hub" really means nothing.

And if every airport where one can make a connection is deemed a hub, then "hub" also means nothing.

You can't quantify what a hub is. It's a classification deemed by the airline. Where does a focus city end and a hub begin?

Quoting XJET (Reply 73):
Of course it is extreme and unrealistic.

Sounds rather silly and doesn't lend you any credibility.

stylo777 · Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:44 am

I would also add ESB / Ankara in Turkey to that list. A population of more than 4,3 mio and the capital city of Turkey, but no hub for any airline.

Lemurs · Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:56 am

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 67):
Horizon has a hub of sorts at Portland.

They don't operate mainline aircraft though. I'm not sure if that discounts them necessarily, but certainly you could say PDX is a large city without a mainline operator using it as a hub.

xjet · Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:05 pm

Quoting 777STL (Reply 76):
Sounds rather silly and doesn't lend you any credibility.

Well 777STL, I am sorry that you, the "Webster of Aviation", cannot accept any input I may have on this topic. I didn't say that any airport at which you can make a connection is a hub. I was illustrating a point. But like the best editors at the New York Times, you have managed to take my statements out of context. I am going to end this debate with you, since obviously you are all-knowing. I have been defeated, and I apologize for my silliness. sarcastic

ei a330-200 · Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:18 pm

I'm pretty sure PDX also recieves mainline AC and offers connections between Mainline and Horizon.

Brian

ptugarin · Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:20 pm

How about Calcutta in India? It's one of the largest cities in the world, isn't it?

Lemurs · Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:27 pm

They do, but there are a grand total of maybe 8 or 10 destinations that AS servers out of PDX, including SEA itself. It's not just one, but it's a stretch to call that a hub. It's a focus city at best for any other airlines almost. While you could make a case that for the respective sizes of AS/QX it would make a second hub, I think that's going a bit far. Just not enough destinations served. Still, I see how the argument could be made, for sure.

Carpethead · Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:55 pm

Not in the US (but enough int'l replies), but Tokyo Haneda (HND), which is the fourth biggest airport in the world in terms of pax numbers, is a non-hub airport. Sure NH & JL operate a lot of flights, but it isn't a hub either and neither carrier calls it a hub.
Tokyo Narita (NRT) is not a 'hub' for its two local carriers but strange as it sounds two foreign carriers call it home to a hub, NW & UA.

as739x · Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:32 pm

Los Angeles: United Hub

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_airlines

ASLAX

rampart · Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:18 pm

Quoting L.1011 (Reply 59):
2. Do you consider the Inland Empire, which BTW, would include ONT and PSP by the Census Bureau's definition, a seperate metro area from Los Angeles?

US Census Bureau now has a classification called "Combined Statistical Area". In this case, three metropolitan areas, the Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana, Oxnard-Ventura, and Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, are grouped in what most people would consider the "greater Los Angeles metropolitan area", aka Los Angeles-Long Beach-Ontario CSA. So in sum, I wouldn't consider these as separate large metro areas.

-Rampart

cedars747 · Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:02 am

Quoting Jetpixx (Thread starter):
Largest City Without An Airline Hub

With a population over four millions,Alexandria is the second largest city in Egypt without an airline hub

Alex!!!

tockeyhockey · Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:52 am

WOO HOO HOO WUHAN!

we have a winner.

apodino · Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:27 pm

How many times do I have to correct people on this board? AA does consider BOS a hub, and their website even shows that they do. If you don't believe me I will provide a link to prove it. Note that BOS is in all caps, and that the footnote says hub cities are shown in all caps.

http://www.aa.com/content/aboutUs/whereWeFly/maps/ne_us_aa.jhtml

Back to the original topic, now that we have established that BOS doesn't qualify since it is an AA hub, in terms of annual traffic, I would have to say that MCO is probably the busiest non-hub for anybody, now that DL has dehubbed it. It is a WN crew base, but no one has a hub here.

I am surprised no one has mentioned CMH. Since HP dehubbed it, its been a sizeable airport, and is Ohio's largest city, but no one has a hub here.

I would have to say though that based on everything I have read here, I would have to say SAN for largest non hub city in the country, and RDU has to be up there as well.

rampart · Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:20 pm

Quoting Apodino (Reply 88):
I would have to say that MCO is probably the busiest non-hub for anybody,

Orlando is 28th largest metro area, behind San Antonio and Kansas City, neither of which have hubs unless you want to argue that Midwest Express has MCI as a hub. And wouldn't we consider Airtran as having an MCO a hub? The airport itself is undoubtedly busy, but that wasn't the question. The question concerned the largest city in terms of metro population.

-Rampart

apodino · Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:36 am

Quoting Rampart (Reply 89):
Orlando is 28th largest metro area, behind San Antonio and Kansas City, neither of which have hubs unless you want to argue that Midwest Express has MCI as a hub. And wouldn't we consider Airtran as having an MCO a hub? The airport itself is undoubtedly busy, but that wasn't the question. The question concerned the largest city in terms of metro population.

I know that. I just threw out the traffic at the airport as food for thought.

austinairport · Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:04 am

My Bad ,I thought I heard somewhere that it was the 16th largest. Yeah sure

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