More Info On The 1500 Mile Rule At LGA?

CoolGuy · Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:40 pm

Can anyone help me find more info on this? I know there are a few exceptions, etc. I'm trying to find the exact regulation for a little light reading. I wonder if it's a good rule. I personally like it, but that's just due to my own travel needs.

commavia · Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:43 pm

Don't have the actual statute to point you to, but the perimeter rule basically goes like this:

1) No flights from LaGuardia nonstop to points over 1,500 miles

2) Exceptions:

- Flights to destinations over 1,500 miles are allowed as direct flights (i.e., with an intermediate stop somewhere within the perimeter)
- Flights to Denver are grandfathered in, and allowed
- Flights to any point, of any distance, are allowed on Saturdays only

LTU932 · Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:45 pm

Why was this perimeter rule introduced in the first place?

Avianca · Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:46 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 1):
- Flights to any point, of any distance, are allowed on Saturdays only

only national or also international?

CoolGuy · Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:46 pm

Any distance on Saturdays? I had no idea about that one. I'll have to see if any airlines take advantage of that.

ciccone · Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:50 pm

Found this article, maybe this would help you.

http://www.nysun.com/article/18053

commavia · Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:52 pm

Quoting Avianca (Reply 3):
only national or also international?

Nope, international is allowed to. USAirways flies to Aruba, for example, and I believe Continental does or used to as well.

Quoting CoolGuy (Reply 4):
Any distance on Saturdays? I had no idea about that one. I'll have to see if any airlines take advantage of that.

USAirways flies to Aruba, as I already said. AA flies LGA-EGE every Saturday with a 757 during the peak winter season, and has for probably close to a decade. ATA tried SFO a few years back. Delta has tried LAX and LAS as well.

CoolGuy · Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:56 pm

Are there any other rules like this, other than at DCA and DAL (somewhat).

Boeing7E7 · Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:43 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 2):
Why was this perimeter rule introduced in the first place?

LGA is but one of three airports that operate as a "system of airports" serving the New York area. The desire is to use LGA for short haul ops taking them away from JFK and EWR adn to prevent this close in airport from becomeing dominated by a single carrier. This option has brought with it delays due to the excessive number of operations with smaller aircraft in lieu of larger aircraft. Ironically, the short 7,200' runways effectively limit the airports use anyway making the perimeter rule rather moot. Never-the-less, the school of thought is to continue this operational philosophy. What they should be doing is opening up the airport by peremiter rule elimination with a simple stipulation that no one carrier may provide more than 30% of the net capacity of the airport, and that no carrier may establish a hub at the facility. This will effectively balance the operation in a rather congested market with JFK and EWR. The demand is such that none of the New York airports warrant a perimter rule to make viable the other airports.

[Edited 2007-02-22 07:11:39]

WesternA318 · Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:48 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 6):
USAirways flies to Aruba, for example, and I believe Continental does or used to as well.

We still do...every Saturday

boswashsprstar · Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:03 pm

Quoting CoolGuy (Reply 4):
Any distance on Saturdays? I had no idea about that one. I'll have to see if any airlines take advantage of that.

See this ongoing thread
Delta Ending LGA-SLC (by MAH4546 Feb 21 2007 in Civil Aviation)

Delta has been the primary user of the exemption, though they've done away with most of their outside-perimeter services.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 3):
only national or also international?

To be clear, international flights are allowed at LGA anytime, if they're within the perimeter, and the flights come from a pre-screened destination. Hence AC's daily flights to Toronto and Montreal (and maybe other places, not sure). And most flights that might come from somewhere farther afield can't land at LGA anyway, due to weight restrictions on the stilted-up runways. I suppose that theoretically if you could somehow make the customs arrangements work, you could fly a 757 between LGA and Europe on Saturday, but I don't think that's likely.

CoolGuy · Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:16 pm

What's the deal with the near end of runway 22 at LGA. Is it really on stilts? When was that part added?

Mir · Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:23 pm

Quoting CoolGuy (Reply 11):
What's the deal with the near end of runway 22 at LGA. Is it really on stilts? When was that part added?

The ends of 22 and 13 are on piers that extend out into the bay, yes.

-Mir

CoolGuy · Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:27 pm

From the posts above, it seems that the ends of 22 and 13 have weight restrictions such that certain aircraft cannot land there. I wonder what that weight is.

Boeing7E7 · Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:36 pm

Quoting CoolGuy (Reply 13):
From the posts above, it seems that the ends of 22 and 13 have weight restrictions such that certain aircraft cannot land there. I wonder what that weight is.

The piers are able to support the same weight as the runway itself:

13/31

Weight bearing capacity:

Single wheel: 80000 lbs
Double wheel: 170000 lbs
Double tandem: 360000 lbs

4/22

Weight bearing capacity:

Single wheel: 80000 lbs
Double wheel: 170000 lbs
Double tandem: 360000 lbs

Glareskin · Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:04 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 6):
Quoting Avianca (Reply 3):
only national or also international?

Nope, international is allowed to.

If this is correct I wonder why the US and European legacy airlines aren't flying smaller extended range jets i.e. the 757 to LGA. I guess they could charge higher prices and fill planes every saturdy from London, Amsterdam, Frankfurt etcetera.

Or even better: Privat air. This would be perfect in their business model.

At least I would pay more to fly directly to this convieniant airport and avoid the JFK or EWR chaos, delays, taxi delays and don't forget the higher taxi fares to the city.

N1120A · Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:04 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 1):
Don't have the actual statute to point you to

It isn't a statute, it is a regulation.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 3):
only national or also international?

Both

Quoting CoolGuy (Reply 7):
DAL

That is going away.

Quoting CoolGuy (Reply 7):
Are there any other rules like this

No

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 8):
Ironically, the short 7,200' runways effectively limit the airports use anyway making the perimeter rule rather moot.

Not really. A 757 can fly its max range off those runways, while a 767 could easily make a transcon flight.

Quoting BosWashSprStar (Reply 10):
To be clear, international flights are allowed at LGA anytime, if they're within the perimeter, and the flights come from a pre-screened destination.

Theoretically, international flights are allowed anytime whether screened or not. They will just have a very long wait at the FIS.

Quoting BosWashSprStar (Reply 10):
I suppose that theoretically if you could somehow make the customs arrangements work, you could fly a 757 between LGA and Europe on Saturday, but I don't think that's likely.

LGA is fully equipped with an FIS, it just happens to be too small to quickly inspect the passengers from a packed mainline flight.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 14):
13/31

Weight bearing capacity:

Single wheel: 80000 lbs
Double wheel: 170000 lbs
Double tandem: 360000 lbs

4/22

Weight bearing capacity:

Single wheel: 80000 lbs
Double wheel: 170000 lbs
Double tandem: 360000 lbs

Which means that a full 757-200 could easily fly off that

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 15):
If this is correct I wonder why the US and European legacy airlines aren't flying smaller extended range jets i.e. the 757 to LGA. I guess they could charge higher prices and fill planes every saturdy from London, Amsterdam, Frankfurt etcetera.

They can't charge a premium because they can't offer the kind of frequency they do out of the other two airports.

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 15):
At least I would pay more to fly directly to this convieniant airport and avoid the JFK or EWR chaos, delays, taxi delays and don't forget the higher taxi fares to the city

Compared to the length of flight, LGA isn't much closer to NYC than the other two airports, and it is horrible for public transport. As far as taxi prices go, JFK-NYC is at the very most $20 more each way than LGA and offers the alternative of real public transportation links.

EXAAUADL · Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:06 am

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 15):
If this is correct I wonder why the US and European legacy airlines aren't flying smaller extended range jets i.e. the 757 to LGA. I guess they could charge higher prices and fill planes every saturdy from London, Amsterdam, Frankfurt etcetera.

There are no FIS facilities at LGA....also I doubt BA or some other European carrier would want to invest the infrustructure at LGA for a once per week flight

Or even better: Privat air. This would be perfect in their business model.

Not sure there would be much demand for a Saturday flight

tsnamm · Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:09 am

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 15):
If this is correct I wonder why the US and European legacy airlines aren't flying smaller extended range jets i.e. the 757 to LGA.

]Because there are no customs facilities...maybe from Ireland where customs is pre cleared...but its not Laguardia "Intl."

CXA330300 · Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:11 am

The reason there are no int'l flights to LGA other than pre-screened destinations is that the customs facilities at LGA aren't large enough to handle more than a few passengers an hour.

N1120A · Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:18 am

Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 18):
]Because there are no customs facilities...

Yes there are.

Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 18):
maybe from Ireland where customs is pre cleared...

Immigration is pre-cleared in Ireland, not customs

Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 18):
but its not Laguardia "Intl."

It is La Guardia Airport, but it is an International airport.

Airport Operations
Airport use: Open to the public
Sectional chart: NEW YORK
Control tower: yes
ARTCC: NEW YORK CENTER
FSS: NEW YORK FLIGHT SERVICE STATION [631-471-7181]
NOTAMs facility: LGA (NOTAM-D service available)
Attendance: CONTINUOUS
Wind indicator: lighted
Segmented circle: no
Lights: DUSK-DAWN
Beacon: white-green (lighted land airport)
Landing fee: yes
Fire and rescue: ARFF index D
International operations: customs landing rights airport

steeler83 · Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:18 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):

Not really. A 757 can fly its max range off those runways, while a 767 could easily make a transcon flight.

I am sure that this will be a silly post, but in the movie, "Home Alone 2," Kevin's plane, an AA 767 from ORD, landed at LGA, or at least it looked like it landed at LGA. Can you see Midtown Manhattan across the East River from LGA? I am pretty sure you can't see it at all from JFK. I know you can see NYC from EWR, but that is lower Manhattan.

N1120A · Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:26 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 21):
Kevin's plane, an AA 767 from ORD, landed at LGA, or at least it looked like it landed at LGA.

Yes it did land at LGA, though ORD isn't exactly a transcon.

Glareskin · Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:33 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 21):
I know you can see NYC from EWR, but that is lower Manhattan.

You can see midtown from EWR too. In fact, EWR might provide the best view to Manhattan.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
Compared to the length of flight, LGA isn't much closer to NYC than the other two airports, and it is horrible for public transport. As far as taxi prices go, JFK-NYC is at the very most $20 more each way than LGA and offers the alternative of real public transportation links.

Compared to the flight you are correct. But abslolutely speaking it is just shorter and in my opinion it is just more convenient. I'd prefer LGA over the other two big NY airports any day. Public transportation isn't too bad. There is a line at the taxi stand but it is moving quickly.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 17):
Not sure there would be much demand for a Saturday flight

You should check the available flights two EWR and JFK on saturdays and you would see there is demand.

N1120A · Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:42 am

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 23):
There is a line at the taxi stand but it is moving quickly.

Same thing with JFK. Further, public transport is practically non-existant at LGA, while it is easily accessible at the other two.

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 23):
You should check the available flights two EWR and JFK on saturdays and you would see there is demand

That is the point. JFK and EWR soak up the demand. As it is, LGA is absolutely full to capacity while JFK still has times where one could bowl down the runways. If an airline wanted to add more service, they could easily send that to JFK and people would be no worse for the wear with the 10 minute longer ride.

Glareskin · Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:48 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 24):
That is the point. JFK and EWR soak up the demand.

I see what you mean but my point is that if some airline from Europe would offer a flight to LGA it would be more attractive and therefore lucrative for the airline.

Boeing7E7 · Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:34 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
Not really. A 757 can fly its max range off those runways, while a 767 could easily make a transcon flight.

That would depend on the engine variant, temperature and the configuration. My point being, the perimeter rule is useless because of the massive amount of demand in the market. The perimeter rule encourages smaller aircraft and short haul flights that effectively congest the airport. Now they want to implement a plan to increase average seating capacity when removing the perimeter rule will accomplish the same task and also spread out flights across the day improving operational efficiency. To offset the "location, location, location" issue, the correct form of protection against market saturation by a single carrier is to limit that saturation by a given percentage of operations by a single carrier. This can be accomplished by implementing the following:

1. Each carrier gets two gates for each hub in the Eastern and Central time zones, unless such hub is located at JFK or EWR.
2. Each carrier gets one gate for each hub in the Mountain and Pacific time zones, they can use it for any destination, the hub structure is only used to determine allocation.
3. Shuttle flights between BOS, and the DC area are slot auctioned based on available capacity over and above the capacity demanded by LGA to out of market hub operations.
4. Designate 6-8 gates for point-to-point and LCC carriers.

La Guardia can support 72 gates. My hunch is you'll find that the LGA to hub allocation/P2P/LCC demands about 40-50 gates leaving 22-32 high utilization gates for shuttle operations.

[Edited 2007-02-22 18:47:15]

timz · Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:43 am

Quoting CoolGuy (Reply 11):
When was that part added?

Completed in 1966, or maybe late 1965.

One thing I've always wondered: when did the rule actually start? In the 1950s LGA apparently had weight limits that mostly precluded nonstop transcon departures, then in the 1960s four-engine jets weren't allowed (dunno whether the rule specifically ruled them out, or if they were just too heavy), and nobody thought LGA-LAX with a 727-100 would pay. But the 1500-mile rule itself didn't start until ... early 1980s maybe?

n844aa · Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:51 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 24):
Same thing with JFK. Further, public transport is practically non-existant at LGA, while it is easily accessible at the other two.

The M60 isn't bad for getting into Manhattan. In fact, I vastly prefer it to the AirTrain, though that's probably a function of where I live. Undoubtedly there are parts of the island where the AirTrain to the A/C or LIRR will take you in more quickly, though at times of low traffic, I've had the bus take 20 minutes, door to door. That's just not going to happen taking the A/C in, though the LIRR to Penn Station would probably be comparable once you make it off the AirTrain.

Still, unless work is paying, I try to avoid JFK or EWR (and even then, I usually still prefer LGA for the diminished transit time). The public transportation to JFK is slo-o-o-ow, and the link to EWR isn't all that much less than a cab to LGA. Besides, there's a lot to be said for the convenience of not humping bags on and off various types of trains.

steeler83 · Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:00 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 22):
Yes it did land at LGA, though ORD isn't exactly a transcon.

Well no it's not, but the point is that LGA can handle 767s, whether they be transcons or shorter, somewhat regional flights like ORD, BOS, MIA to LGA...

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 23):
You can see midtown from EWR too. In fact, EWR might provide the best view to Manhattan.

Yeah, but don't you have to turn your view up the Hudson River to see the E.S.B and the rest of Midtown? I believe Lower Manhattan is right smack in front of EWR if you were to be standing at one of the concourses looking out over the city. I would have to say that this would be one spectacular view!

phllax · Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:51 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 21):
I am sure that this will be a silly post, but in the movie, "Home Alone 2," Kevin's plane, an AA 767 from ORD, landed at LGA, or at least it looked like it landed at LGA.

LGA is able to accomodate aircraft as large as the DC-10, L-1011 and 767-400.

tsnamm · Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:31 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 20):
Yes there are.

customs is dispatched from JFK to inspect flights...CET has no offices at LGA

boswashsprstar · Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:47 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
LGA is fully equipped with an FIS, it just happens to be too small to quickly inspect the passengers from a packed mainline flight.

I've heard this said before, but wasn't sure if it was true. Where exactly are the facilities? And which gates (if any) have the second door to quarantine people before sending them through customs?

N1120A · Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:50 am

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 25):
I see what you mean but my point is that if some airline from Europe would offer a flight to LGA it would be more attractive and therefore lucrative for the airline.

Again, if you can't do frequency, it doesn't matter how close you are.

Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 31):
customs is dispatched from JFK to inspect flights...CET has no offices at LGA

It doesn't matter where they come from. MSY shares its customs people with the Port of New Orleans and always has, but it still has a full FIS.

Viscount724 · Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:01 am

Quoting Timz (Reply 27):
and nobody thought LGA-LAX with a 727-100 would pay.

The 727-100 (or -200) didn't have the range for LGA-LAX with any kind of payload. It could probably do it empty. The 727 was never designed with US transcon routes in mind.

milesrich · Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:56 pm

The runways at LGA were not long enough to operate the 707/720, CV-880, or DC-8. Jet service at LGA did not begin until June 1, 1964 with the 727 (short body, not the 200 series). United, TWA, American and Eastern all initiated service in 1964. I was a guest on a pleasure boat that was docked near Runways 9-27 on Memorial Day weekend of that year and saw a United Caravelle take off, however, UA never scheduled any Caravelles out of LGA, and after 1963 or 1964, all Caravelle service was from EWR, where the Caravelle introduced Jet service in 1961. If you look at schedules from the mid 1950's, AA and UA did not operate DC-7's from LGA either, including flights to CHI (MDW), although later on, Eastern used DC-7B's, and L-1049A/C/G's from LGA, on the Shuttle and other short distance flights. Many airlines did not fly to LGA in the 1950's/early 1960's before the 727 service began, including National, Northwest, and Delta. United pulled out of LGA in 1962 and did not return until the inauguration of 727 service in June 1964. My first jet flight from LGA was on June 3, 1964 on a UA 727-22 to ORD.

timz · Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:22 am

Quoting Milesrich (Reply 35):
The runways at LGA were not long enough to operate the 707/720, CV-880, or DC-8.

As you know, they were both 7000 ft after 1966. EWR's longest runway was 7000 ft until about 1970, and EWR had lots of 707-DC8 flights starting in ... 1961, wasn't it? And MKC's 7000-ft runway even got JT3C-powered 707s, along with the fanjets.

WA flew 720Bs off of SAC's 6000-ft runway; UA flew DC-8s off of KOA's 6500 ft runway, nonstop to the mainland. (Tho that may have just been -71s).

Oh yes-- Northeastern scheduled DC-8s out of ISP in the 1980s, when it had 6000 ft.

[Edited 2007-02-24 00:24:09]

More Info On The 1500 Mile Rule At LGA?

More Info On The 1500 Mile Rule At LGA?

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