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saab2000
Topic Author
Posts: 1251
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2001 6:19 pm

LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:29 am

I have a few questions for the Swiss freaks out there!! Big grin

How many Avros does LX operate? Are they all based in ZRH? What sorts of routes do they fly them on? Are there any expansion plans for this fleet of SWISS European or can we expect any EMB jets to arrive anytime?

I am a bit curious about what SWISS European has become now that it has been split from SWISS and what the future holds.

At least one person who reads this knows why I am asking! Big grin
smrtrthnu
 
ZRH
Posts: 4371
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 1999 11:32 pm

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:59 am

I don't know all destination but fore sure with the 24 aircraft (4 RJ85, 20 RJ100) there are many different European cities. A lot of destinations are served with both, the A 320 family and the AVROs. I think not all are based in ZRH because there are new flights out of GVA and BSL. Not much information but I hope that there are other members who know more.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:38 am

I was going to add some comments from the passenger viewpoint (Avro RJ is one of my favourite shorthaul types provided the seating is 5-abreast as on LX), but I see you have made an almost identical posting in the thread below so are already aware of the other replies there. I was on an LX Avro RJ100 yesterday PRG-GVA. The captain was female.
Hop Schwiiz/Hop Suisse/Forza Svizzera-Av Thread 6! (by RootsAir Feb 5 2007 in Civil Aviation)
 
RJ100
Posts: 3904
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:06 am

Glad to see you back (maybe) Big grin

The majority of the aircraft are based in ZRH, 3 are based in BSL, not sure if and how many in GVA.

As I have already told you, Swiss and it's daughter Swiss European are in desperate need of pilots so it might be a good opportunity to come back. The Avros are used on European routes.

There is no final decision yet on how they will replace the Avros, as we hear the choice is between the Embraers and the A-318. I am sure the unions will have a nice fight again on who is piloting the new aircraft then. Big grin

Good luck!
none
 
LXA340
Posts: 1186
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 11:55 pm

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:52 am

Are there any concrete plans on when they will plan to start to replace the Avros? I mean they slowly are ageing especially the Avro RJ85's. Yeah if part of the fleet will be replaced with the A318's oh oh....Regarding Embraer does LX still have some delivry options or were they completely cancelled?
 
johnnybgoode
Posts: 2144
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:03 pm

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 4):
Are there any concrete plans on when they will plan to start to replace the Avros? I mean they slowly are ageing especially the Avro RJ85's. Yeah if part of the fleet will be replaced with the A318's oh oh....Regarding Embraer does LX still have some delivry options or were they completely cancelled?

the delivery options now rest with LH, if I'm not mistaken. and if not, it's still LH who now calls the shots... also, LH is thought to be close to ordering Embraer jets (see other thread). I have my doubts that the A318 is in the cards. it would seem to fit nicely in the fleet of LH and still they haven't opted for it: too heavy, too much range for the missions it's needed for. imho, chances are slim that LX will one day go for the A318.
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
columba
Posts: 5252
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:36 pm

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 5):
LH is thought to be close to ordering Embraer jets (see other thread).

Which one ? I have not found a thread regarding this matter, yet ?
Air Berlin - gone but not forgotten
 
Knightsofmalta
Posts: 1754
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:51 pm

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:49 pm

First of all, the A. 318 was never considered by LX as a replacement for the Avro's. But SWISS has made it clear that any decisions on the replacement of the regional fleet will depend on resolving the situation with the regional pilots first. That's how the rumour about the A. 318 got started. Secondly, any decsion LX makes on the future of it's regional fleet will surely be in accordance with LH.

As for the E-Jets. The order LX placed still exists in theory. In practice though, it's pending...
 
bmie70
Posts: 95
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:12 pm

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:37 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 6):
Which one ? I have not found a thread regarding this matter, yet ?

CRJ 1000 Launch? (by H53Epilot Feb 19 2007 in Civil Aviation)#1

In the first 20 posts or so.
 
columba
Posts: 5252
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:07 pm

Quoting BMIE70 (Reply 8):

CRJ 1000 Launch? (by H53Epilot Feb 19 2007 in Civil Aviation)#1

In the first 20 posts or so.

Thank you but there has to be another thread. In the thread you mentioned above there is this quote :

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 57):
I don't think LH use their Avro RJs on many sectors longer than 60 or 90 minutes. There's another thread with a rumour that they may be on the verge of ordering Embraer 175/190s to replace the Avros, which would obviously be a big improvement due to the spacious 4-abreast seating of the Embraers.

I was looking for the thread Viscount724 was refering, too !!
Air Berlin - gone but not forgotten
 
pred02
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:08 am

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:25 am

Quoting BMIE70 (Reply 8):
First of all, the A. 318 was never considered by LX as a replacement for the Avro's. But SWISS has made it clear that any decisions on the replacement of the regional fleet will depend on resolving the situation with the regional pilots first. That's how the rumour about the A. 318 got started. Secondly, any decsion LX makes on the future of it's regional fleet will surely be in accordance with LH.

As for the E-Jets. The order LX placed still exists in theory. In practice though, it's pending...

It would be nice to see the EMB-175 or something similar with LX. At some point, they did fly the EMB-145, didn't they?
 
aviationmaster
Posts: 2151
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 3:47 pm

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:50 am

Quoting Pred02 (Reply 11):

It would be nice to see the EMB-175 or something similar with LX. At some point, they did fly the EMB-145, didn't they?

Yup, LX took over the EMB-145 from Crossair  Smile
 
pred02
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:08 am

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:48 am

Quoting Aviationmaster (Reply 11):
Yup, LX took over the EMB-145 from Crossair Smile

I am curious as to why carriers such as LX still use the AVRO jet - besides inheriting them, having crews trained etc. There are many more much more efficient regional jets available out there including the CRJs, EMB, and Fokker. Wouldn't a twin engine regional be more efficient than the AVRO?

Don't get me wrong, I personally love the look and the feel of the AVRO, and have flow the LX ZRH-NCE on the RJ100. But still, just curious.. it's not the cheapest jet to operate (though those ZRH-LCY routes are nice compared to everything else that gets routed through LHR)
 
johnnybgoode
Posts: 2144
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:33 pm

Quoting Pred02 (Reply 13):
am curious as to why carriers such as LX still use the AVRO jet - besides inheriting them, having crews trained etc. There are many more much more efficient regional jets available out there including the CRJs, EMB, and Fokker. Wouldn't a twin engine regional be more efficient than the AVRO?

Don't get me wrong, I personally love the look and the feel of the AVRO, and have flow the LX ZRH-NCE on the RJ100. But still, just curious.. it's not the cheapest jet to operate (though those ZRH-LCY routes are nice compared to everything else that gets routed through LHR)

first of all, when the Avros were available, there was no real other alternative (Fokker was going down and with the Avro's main competitor, the Fokker 70). today, the CRJ 900 and soon 1000 as well as the E175-195 are suitable replacement aircraft in terms of capacity.
however, the Avro is able to operate into airports which cannot be served by other jet aircraft, e.g. LCY comes to mind, as does FLR. however, this picture is changing slowly, there will be variants of the E170/E175 which will be able to operate into LCY, and nowadays some 737s and A320 family aircraft are operated into FLR.
but for quite some time, the Avros offered unmatched operational benefits due to its four-engined design: take-off at high payloads from short airfields, it can operate under very low weather minima, lower than those other aircraft (although this may also depend on the airline operator). but yes, they are gas-guzzlers, no doubt about it.
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
swiftski
Posts: 1837
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:19 am

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:56 pm

Quoting ZRH (Reply 1):
A lot of destinations are served with both, the A 320 family and the AVROs

London is served by the AVRO's to LCY & LHR, but LHR has also seen regular 319, 320, 321,330 [morning flight] as well as the odd 340.

I'm sure other cities are similar.
 
pred02
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:08 am

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:16 am

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 13):
first of all, when the Avros were available, there was no real other alternative (Fokker was going down and with the Avro's main competitor, the Fokker 70). today, the CRJ 900 and soon 1000 as well as the E175-195 are suitable replacement aircraft in terms of capacity.
however, the Avro is able to operate into airports which cannot be served by other jet aircraft, e.g. LCY comes to mind, as does FLR. however, this picture is changing slowly, there will be variants of the E170/E175 which will be able to operate into LCY, and nowadays some 737s and A320 family aircraft are operated into FLR.
but for quite some time, the Avros offered unmatched operational benefits due to its four-engined design: take-off at high payloads from short airfields, it can operate under very low weather minima, lower than those other aircraft (although this may also depend on the airline operator). but yes, they are gas-guzzlers, no doubt about it.

It makes sense and it's a beautiful plane. Though nowadays in the US everything regional is a CRJ or the EMB. I think NW uses the AVRO still, but most airlines are ditching it.

LX before used to operate a whole bunch of other aircraft including the EMB-145 and the Saab 2000. They were probably acquired from Crossair. It made sense that they consolidated their fleet to one-type, but I was just curious why the AVRO.

The LCY-ZRH route is money.
 
saab2000
Topic Author
Posts: 1251
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2001 6:19 pm

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:00 am

LX is/was Crossair. LX used to operate the Avro and they consolidated all the so-called "regional" flights to that aircraft. Nothing was aquired from Crossair. They simply kept what they had and then got rid of some of them when SWISS was formed out of Crossair.

Anyway, the Avro is a very comfortable plane and good for certain types of routes, specifically LCY, BRN and LUG. But for most other airports I think the EMB-170/175 and EMB-190/195 would be a good replacement.

I also wonder what they will do with this and if there are any plans to keep this SWISS European as part of SWISS or if they are still trying to get rid of it all together.

I guess I am wondering if SWISS will keep it or if it is still a very uncertain future for the ex-Crossair pilots at SWISS. I keep my fingers crossed for a good future for everyone. BTW, the CRJ-900/1000 would not be a good replacement for the Avro. It is far less comfortable for passengers.
smrtrthnu
 
pred02
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:08 am

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:36 am

Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 16):
Anyway, the Avro is a very comfortable plane and good for certain types of routes, specifically LCY, BRN and LUG. But for most other airports I think the EMB-170/175 and EMB-190/195 would be a good replacement.

You are right, CH has quiet a very airports that short-runway/interesting approach. One tends to thing about ZRH,GVA, and the Europort but often overlook LUG and BRN. Also, for LUG I though the the presence there is Darwin Airline.

Of topic, I know that Lufthansa now has part in ownership and/or management of SWISS. Are there any major changes to SWISS flight structures. It is natural to keep ZRH and GVA as basis and fly out of there. But will there be more connections via Germany now as a result of this business acquisition?

I often fly BOS-BEG usually via FRA or ZRH. I prefer ZRH very much over FRA or MUC partially because of the better airport for the connection, and partially because we have good family friends there. If time permits, I choose the flight back to the US the following morning so I can spend a day or so in ZRH.

Second question,
What is happening with LCC Helvetic? I know they fly some off beat routes like to PRN and SKP. But it does not seem like they are expanding. It would be wonderful to see CH-bred LCC alongside with EZS.
 
Knightsofmalta
Posts: 1754
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:51 pm

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:55 am

Quoting Pred02 (Reply 15):
The LCY-ZRH route is money.

Unfortunately that may be about to change now that BA will start 4 daily flights and AF will start 3 daily flights as well on that route...

Quoting Pred02 (Reply 17):
What is happening with LCC Helvetic? I know they fly some off beat routes like to PRN and SKP. But it does not seem like they are expanding. It would be wonderful to see CH-bred LCC alongside with EZS.

Helvetic is kind of playing a double game right now. They're flying to some really odd places as you say. Kind of operating as a niche LCC. On the other hand, they're just waiting to see how SWISS will resolve the situation. If LX can't come to an agreement with the regional pilots, one of these days you could very well see those Embraers LX still has on order being tranferred to Helvetic, operating on behalf of SWISS.
 
helvknight
Posts: 784
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:35 pm

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:01 am

Quoting Pred02 (Reply 17):
Also, for LUG I though the the presence there is Darwin Airline.

I thought that jets were no longer able to serve LUG which is why Darwin serve it using SAABs.

Quoting Pred02 (Reply 10):
It would be nice to see the EMB-175 or something similar with LX.

IIRC LX were going to be the launch customer for the E175 before the grounding.
I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member - Groucho Marx
 
sandrozrh
Posts: 2419
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:19 am

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:14 am

Quoting Swiftski (Reply 14):
London is served by the AVRO's to LCY & LHR

Never heard of a scheduled LX AVRO flight into LHR. Their primary equipment is the A32x fleet with the odd WB as you mentioned.

Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 16):

Anyway, the Avro is a very comfortable plane and good for certain types of routes, specifically LCY, BRN and LUG.

LX doesn't serve BRN and LUG is served by Darwin Airline with a SAAB2000. I think one of the main reasons why LX went with the AVRO is indeed LCY. It's actually their primary LON airport, above LHR, and it prooved to be extremely successful.
 
A342
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:18 am

Quoting Helvknight (Reply 19):
I thought that jets were no longer able to serve LUG which is why Darwin serve it using SAABs.

IIRC Darwin never had jets ? But if anything, it was the other way round ! LUG normally requires a steep approach, which the ARJ can do, but not the Saab 2000. But sometime ago, they've agreed that aircraft without a steep-approach capability (such as the Saab 2000) may still use a so-called "circled approach" (or something like that).
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
pred02
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:08 am

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:48 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 21):
IIRC Darwin never had jets ? But if anything, it was the other way round ! LUG normally requires a steep approach, which the ARJ can do, but not the Saab 2000. But sometime ago, they've agreed that aircraft without a steep-approach capability (such as the Saab 2000) may still use a so-called "circled approach" (or something like that).

You mean the circle-to-land approach?
 
gerardo
Posts: 3372
Joined: Sun May 21, 2000 6:22 pm

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:47 am

Quoting Knightsofmalta (Reply 18):
Unfortunately that may be about to change now that BA will start 4 daily flights and AF will start 3 daily flights as well on that route...

AF is to start 3 daily ZRH.LCY flights? Well, THAT's news to me!! Do you have any source?
dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
 
swiftski
Posts: 1837
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:19 am

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:57 am

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 20):
Never heard of a scheduled LX AVRO flight into LHR.

HB-IXK did it in Dec 05 once or twice, I beleive. There is certainly one photo of it in the DB @ LHR in Dec 05 which sort of adds up. More here:

https://www.airliners.net/search/phot...&truecount=true&engine_version=6.0
 
FRALIM
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2003 3:06 am

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:33 am

Quoting Gerardo (Reply 23):
Quoting Knightsofmalta (Reply 18):
Unfortunately that may be about to change now that BA will start 4 daily flights and AF will start 3 daily flights as well on that route...

AF is to start 3 daily ZRH.LCY flights? Well, THAT's news to me!! Do you have any source?

Its been over a week that AF (CityJet) announced those flights, but still no schedule has been loaded. The only info (that I have) regarding the frequency of their flights comes from the LCY press release, which can be found here...



Quoting Knightsofmalta (Reply 18):
Quoting Pred02 (Reply 15):
The LCY-ZRH route is money.

Unfortunately that may be about to change now that BA will start 4 daily flights and AF will start 3 daily flights as well on that route...

Well, it's obviously competition and it will have an affect, but BA's schedule doesn't seem too appealing for business pax (still have to wait for AF's) so I would worry to much about the impact on LX's performance on the route...
 
sandrozrh
Posts: 2419
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:19 am

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:08 am

Quoting Swiftski (Reply 24):

HB-IXK did it in Dec 05 once or twice, I beleive. There is certainly one photo of it in the DB @ LHR in Dec 05 which sort of adds up. More here:

Probably short-notice equipment changes because an A32x went tech or was needed elsewhere
 
Joelatbsl
Posts: 801
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 8:51 pm

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:22 am

There were even Swiss E145 into LHR. When Swiss used to fly from BSL to LHR, the Sat evening and Sun morning flights were operated by E145s and the A320 was used for two charter rotations...

Cheers

JOEL
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:52 am

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 26):
Quoting Swiftski (Reply 24):

HB-IXK did it in Dec 05 once or twice, I beleive. There is certainly one photo of it in the DB @ LHR in Dec 05 which sort of adds up. More here:

Probably short-notice equipment changes because an A32x went tech or was needed elsewhere

No, LX has 2 GVA-LHR-GVA flights a week, both on Saturday, using Avro RJ-100 These flights operate only during the winter (January-April) to cater to ski traffic. Until about two years ago they operated these flights to the airport at Sion (SIR), near several major Swiss ski areas (Zermatt, Verbier, Crans-Montana etc.) But last winter (or perhaps the winter before last) they moved these flights to GVA. They had been LX's only flights at Sion which probably resulted in high costs.

These two Saturday-only flights during the winter have been LX's only GVA-LHR-GVA flights since they sold the rest of their LHR slots, previously used for GVA-LHR, to BA about 3 years ago and began codesharing on BA. At that time LX was on the verge of joining oneworld.

Although that transaction generated a lot of cash for LX, which they needed at the time, LX probably later regretted losing those valuable LHR slots and the ability to operate GVA-LHR after they made their deal with LH, joined Star Alliance and the BA codeshare ended. LX of course still opreates GVA-LCY, recently increased from 4 to 6 daily. I'm sure BA is very pleased with their resulting monopoly on the GVA-LHR route.

You will find these 2 LX Saturday-only GVA-LHR-GVA flights in schedules through about mid-April. Flight numbers LX2632/2634 GVA-LHR and LX2633/2635 LHR-GVA.
 
sandrozrh
Posts: 2419
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:19 am

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:47 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 28):

No, LX has 2 GVA-LHR-GVA flights a week, both on Saturday, using Avro RJ-100 These flights operate only during the winter (January-April) to cater to ski traffic. Until about two years ago they operated these flights to the airport at Sion (SIR), near several major Swiss ski areas (Zermatt, Verbier, Crans-Montana etc.) But last winter (or perhaps the winter before last) they moved these flights to GVA. They had been LX's only flights at Sion which probably resulted in high costs

Oh yes, i totally forgot about that, how could i  banghead 

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 28):

These two Saturday-only flights during the winter have been LX's only GVA-LHR-GVA flights since they sold the rest of their LHR slots, previously used for GVA-LHR, to BA about 3 years ago and began codesharing on BA. At that time LX was on the verge of joining oneworld.

I know.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 28):

Although that transaction generated a lot of cash for LX, which they needed at the time, LX probably later regretted losing those valuable LHR slots and the ability to operate GVA-LHR after they made their deal with LH, joined Star Alliance and the BA codeshare ended. LX of course still opreates GVA-LCY, recently increased from 4 to 6 daily. I'm sure BA is very pleased with their resulting monopoly on the GVA-LHR route.

I know.

 Wink
 
HBJZA
Posts: 344
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:23 pm

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:51 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 28):
They had been LX's only flights at Sion which probably resulted in high costs.

Not exact, at that time they used to fly to London and to ZRH from SIR. Probably the ZRH flight was to position the A/C but still one could buy tickets on it.
I really wish one airline would base some A/C in SIR......
 
A342
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:09 pm

Quoting Pred02 (Reply 22):
You mean the circle-to-land approach?

Yes, thank you !
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
dj1986
Posts: 108
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:25 pm

RE: LX/SWISS Avro Fleet

Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:43 am

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 20):
LX doesn't serve BRN and LUG is served by Darwin Airline with a SAAB2000. I think one of the main reasons why LX went with the AVRO is indeed LCY. It's actually their primary LON airport, above LHR, and it prooved to be extremely successful.

Wasn't the Saab 2000 kind of prohibted into LUG at some point in IFR conditions? I thought that was why Cirrus was starting to operate the LUG flights on behave of LX with the DHC-8-300. Are the Darwin Saab's no required to go to an alternate in bad weather?
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