nwafflyer
Topic Author
Posts: 888
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2004 9:29 am

Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:54 am

I have a friend who is frightened of flying over the Atlantic. I keep reassuring her, over and over, and finally decided to try and get some facts. Of course, there was the TWA crash off the coast of Long Island, and the Egypt Air pilot 'suicide', but other than those 2, in the last 10 years, have there been any major issues with loss of life on transatlantic flights?
 
LHR777
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:14 pm

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:00 am

Swissair 111? September 2nd, 1998. MD-11, registered HB-IWF, en-route New York JFK - Geneva Cointrin. 229 souls on board perished on that fateful night. May they R.I.P.

[Edited 2007-02-24 21:05:09]
 
nwafflyer
Topic Author
Posts: 888
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2004 9:29 am

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:11 am

Thanks, but that is more than 10 years ago - I'm looking at crashes in the last 10 years
 
Go3Team
Posts: 3156
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 1:19 am

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:16 am

Quoting Nwafflyer (Reply 2):
Thanks, but that is more than 10 years ago

???

Quoting LHR777 (Reply 1):
September 2nd, 1998
Yay Pudding!
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:17 am

Quoting Nwafflyer (Reply 2):
Thanks, but that is more than 10 years ago - I'm looking at crashes in the last 10 years

SR111 was 8.5 years ago.
 
User avatar
rikkus67
Posts: 1321
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2000 11:34 am

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:30 am

NWAfflyer....

Although having information of crashes might be of some use, perhaps it would be more important to compare the number of crashes against the number of flights per day/week/month, etc.

Showing the sheer volume of flights across the Atlantic, as compared to crashes over any given period, should help to eliviate some of those fears your friend has.
AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
 
teo747
Posts: 123
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:44 pm

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:30 am

...and TWA 800 was more than 10 years ago as of last July.
 
FlyDeltaJets87
Posts: 4479
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:51 am

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:46 am

While it didn't crash over the ocean and into the Atlantic, the Air France Concorde crash was technically a transatlantic flight (2000)
There was an A330 that ran out of fuel in flight over the Atlantic, but that had a a happy ending with an emergency landing in the Azores (Don't remember the year though).
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
LHR777
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:14 pm

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:00 am

Quoting Nwafflyer (Reply 2):
Thanks, but that is more than 10 years ago - I'm looking at crashes in the last 10 years

Dude, 1998 was definitely within the last ten years. Still, what are you actually trying to ascertain with this information?
 
awthompson
Posts: 517
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 9:59 pm

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:09 am

There have been NO crashes in the last 10 years of Airliners on Transatlantic flights at least into the ocean itself (other than Swissair 111 on 2nd Sep 1998.) There have however been two or three which have crashed on land at origin or destination, some of them on cargo operations.

Given the number of flights each day (I guess well over 500) and the fact that the majority are operated under ETOPS procedures (meaning extra safety measures in place), transatlantic operations are very safe.

My only fear at all would be terrorism. At least three crashes in modern times were terrorism or suicide ie. Air India 182, Pan Am 103 and Egyptair 990. There have been many recent terrorist threats including a major one which was foiled last year when advanced plans were found to bring down a number of jets mid Atlantic on one day. Hopefully that type of disaster will never happen.
 
nwafflyer
Topic Author
Posts: 888
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2004 9:29 am

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:02 am

Thanks, sorry about my date mess up - I read 1988 even though I saw 1998. I did a semi statistical survey, e-mailed it to my friend, trying to explain that driving on either of the 2 major roads near her home is way more dangerous, and her reaction was simple ' her husband would drive'

I guess it's time for me to give up, and accept the fact that she will never go to Europe
 
sw733
Posts: 5874
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:19 am

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:07 am

Quoting Awthompson (Reply 9):
There have been NO crashes in the last 10 years of Airliners on Transatlantic flights at least into the ocean itself (other than Swissair 111 on 2nd Sep 1998.)

EgyptAir 990...31 Oct. 1999
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:34 am

Quoting Awthompson (Reply 9):
There have been NO crashes in the last 10 years of Airliners on Transatlantic flights at least into the ocean itself (other than Swissair 111 on 2nd Sep 1998.)

Not only is this statement factually incorrect, but it makes absolutely no sense.

Quoting Awthompson (Reply 9):
At least three crashes in modern times were terrorism or suicide ie. Air India 182, Pan Am 103 and Egyptair 990.

...um, forget about four consequent crashes in the fall of 2001??
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:47 am

Quoting Nwafflyer (Reply 10):
I guess it's time for me to give up, and accept the fact that she will never go to Europe

Nwafflyer, that's probably the wisest course. Very possibly your friend has other reasons for not wanting to go to Europe. Certainly the statistics confirm what you've already told her, that the car-ride to the airport is the most dangerous part of any journey by air!

One thing though - does she happily fly other places? If so, maybe her 'instinctive' fear is about flying over the ocean?

If that IS the case, it might be worth looking up the Great Circle route to Europe and showing it to her. Even flying JFK-LHR, the GC route passes over the whole of New England and Eastern Canada. At a guess, the aeroplane is probably over LAND for at least half of its flying time.

Different story if she lived here in Melbourne.  Smile Flying to the USA from HERE sure involves a lot of water - something over 6,000nms.and 12 hours of it!
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
flyboy_se
Posts: 764
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2000 5:31 am

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:09 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 12):
...um, forget about four consequent crashes in the fall of 2001??

the thread was about transatlantic flights, so those four arent included.
I prefer to be crazy and happy rather than normal and bitter
 
nosedive
Posts: 2176
Joined: Sun May 23, 2004 2:18 pm

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:10 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 12):
Quoting Awthompson (Reply 9):At least three crashes in modern times were terrorism or suicide ie. Air India 182, Pan Am 103 and Egyptair 990.
...um, forget about four consequent crashes in the fall of 2001??

I think he's meaning terrorist acts on flights over the Atlantic. Last time I checked all 4 flights on 9/11 were transcons.

Quoting Nwafflyer (Reply 10):
Thanks, sorry about my date mess up - I read 1988 even though I saw 1998. I did a semi statistical survey, e-mailed it to my friend, trying to explain that driving on either of the 2 major roads near her home is way more dangerous, and her reaction was simple ' her husband would drive'

I guess it's time for me to give up, and accept the fact that she will never go to Europe

Her loss.
 
awthompson
Posts: 517
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 9:59 pm

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:12 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 12):
...um, forget about four consequent crashes in the fall of 2001??

I was still on the subject of transatlantic flights  Wink

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 12):
Quoting Awthompson (Reply 9):
There have been NO crashes in the last 10 years of Airliners on Transatlantic flights at least into the ocean itself (other than Swissair 111 on 2nd Sep 1998.)

Not only is this statement factually incorrect, but it makes absolutely no sense.

Thanks for drawing attention to that badly worded sentence. I was kind of discounting terrorism and deliberate crashes in what I was saying. Of course the EgyptAir 990 disaster took place on 31st Oct 1999  Angry

I live underneath a regular transatlantic track and there are few people who have studied transatlantic flights and related accidents over the years more than me I can assure you.  Yeah sure

I have read all of the available accident reports virtually word for word including AI 182, PA 103, TW 800, MS 990 and SR 111.
 
loalq
Posts: 208
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:24 pm

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:30 am

My wife is also very very very afraid of flying and it is even worse when it comes to crossing the Atlantic (what we do at least 4x per year).

She used to take sleeping pills but got so nervous that they simply did not work...

My advice -- Stay awake for 24 hours prior to the flight, take some glasses of wine on board and you are up to some good hours of deep sleep. When she wakes up, she will be flying over land again.  Big grin
"...this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem. All four engines have stopped."
 
awthompson
Posts: 517
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 9:59 pm

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:48 am

An interesting point that you should consider, in fact hinted at in reply 17, is that only part of any transatlantic flight is over water. Indeed if flying from Europe to the west coast of Canada or the USA, as low as 25% of flight time may be over water.

I have noted this when flying from London Heathrow to Los Angeles with only a short stretch of water from Northern Scotland to Iceland, Iceland to Greenland, Greenland to Baffin Island and Baffin Island to Northern Canadian mainland. The last half of flight time was all over land. I have not done a calculation but I guess that only about 30% of the total flight time, maybe even less, was over water on that particular routing.

Flying from London Heathrow to, say Chicago, depending on the track selected, as low as 45% might be over water and to JFK as low as 65% over water. I have spent more hours over water on flights from Ireland to the Canary Islands than on some transatlantic flights!

Please don't anybody tear my percentages apart, I have not made precise calculations although I might to that some time as a little "project."
 
Qazar
Posts: 193
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 4:18 am

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:35 am

There was also that AF flight that crashed in Toronto while landing in rain!!!
 
loalq
Posts: 208
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:24 pm

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:41 am

Quoting Qazar (Reply 19):
There was also that AF flight that crashed in Toronto while landing in rain!!!

Her friend will be happy to know that nobody died in this accident, though...  Wink
"...this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem. All four engines have stopped."
 
AlexPorter
Posts: 1655
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:10 am

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:41 am

Quoting Nwafflyer (Thread starter):
have there been any major issues with loss of life on transatlantic flights?



Quoting Qazar (Reply 19):
There was also that AF flight that crashed in Toronto while landing in rain!!!

Everyone lived, so this one doesn't count according to the original question.
Last Flight: SCX701 MSP-PHX B738 8Jan2008
 
coleplane
Posts: 171
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:54 pm

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:07 pm

What was the last incident you recall where access to land (ground) would have saved the plane or pax? I can't think of a recent incident where water was a contributing factor. Am I making my point? Am I wrong?

If there's a catastrophic failure of the plane, it's probably not going to matter. Although I wouldn't use this line of reasoning with her as there's not much comfort in it.

Frankly, I'd take my chances over water vs. say... the Andes or Amazon jungle.
"About a nine on the tension scale there Rupe."
 
aa87
Posts: 283
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:37 am

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:58 pm

You also might add that airline accidents these days are, for all practical purposes,statistical outliers. I hate low viz approaches b/c of the lack of knwoledge/control as a pax, so I empathize with your friend, but tallying up accidents over a particular route or region in the last 10 years just doesn't say much (exception being Africa and Russia, where accidents are more frequent). Most airline accidents in the last 10 years can reasonably be called freak accidents. If someone has deep anxiety over flying, not for us to try and "cure" them. There are many classes and services run by pros who do that, or try to anyway.

As an aside, I noticed many years ago that the standard routes over NA are mostly over land. That's why the flight back to the US feels so much longer - it is longer due to prevailing winds, but also, psychologicaly you "feel" almost home when you make landfall at or near Newfoundland, but it's at least another 3 hours to NY area.
 
bingo
Posts: 278
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 11:08 am

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:17 pm

Quote:
I guess it's time for me to give up, and accept the fact that she will never go to Europe

She can take a boat across the pond. Then again that didnt go too well for a few...Ill take my chances flying anyday. No icebergs up there...  Wink
 
irishmd11
Posts: 80
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 6:58 pm

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:50 pm

Quoting Qazar (Reply 19):
Flying from London Heathrow to, say Chicago, depending on the track selected, as low as 45% might be over water

Thanks for the information Adrian. I'll be flying that route on March the 10th next. First time to cross the pond on a twin(B777), having done it a few times on 747s and 340s.

Slan for now!

Gerry.
ATR 72,Avro 85,BAC 1-11,Concorde,Trident,BAE146,BN Islander,707,727,737,741,743,744757,767,772,773,DC-9,DC-10,MD-11,MD-8
 
TrijetsRMissed
Posts: 1983
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:15 pm

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:12 pm

Quoting Coleplane (Reply 22):
What was the last incident you recall where access to land (ground) would have saved the plane or pax?

SR 111. The aircraft's vital system's (engines, control surfaces, etc) were fully functioning at the time of the accident. The fire did knock out most of the glass cockpit instruments in the flightdeck in the final moments however. The ridiculous decision to circle back over the Atlantic (with an inflight fire) to dump fuel after receiving landing clearance, is what doomed the aircraft. Without any horizon or lights, the pilots steered the MD-11 into the ocean without even knowing it.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
moek2000
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:37 am

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:38 pm

Airplanes are incredibly safe. The FAA has put so much strict requirements for aircraft safety, I feel way safer on an airplane than I do in my car.

As far as being nervous, the only cure for her is to fly MORE! I used to be a little nervous about flights too, but i purposely flew as much as I could (45-50 pleasure flights) in one year and I flew just about every Boeing, Airbus and Douglas models... That, is what led me to become an aviation enthusiast despite being a med student.
 
ual777
Posts: 1641
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:12 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 26):

SR 111. The aircraft's vital system's (engines, control surfaces, etc) were fully functioning at the time of the accident. The fire did knock out most of the glass cockpit instruments in the flightdeck in the final moments however. The ridiculous decision to circle back over the Atlantic (with an inflight fire) to dump fuel after receiving landing clearance, is what doomed the aircraft. Without any horizon or lights, the pilots steered the MD-11 into the ocean without even knowing it.

Ummm, you are a little off. The pilots did not know there was a fire until it was too late. The fire (caused by wire arcing and flammible insulation) was above the cabin. The aircrafts' air circulation system kept all smoke out of the cockpit. The captain actually collapsed from smoke inhalation as the cockpit ceiling was melting. When the a/c kicked off, the cockpit filled with smoke, and the FO was unable to see.

You cannot land an aircraft over the landing weights unless you want the struts coming up through the cabin. They simply didn't have all of the information they needed, and one of the NTSB's reccomendations was to install smoke detectors above the cabin.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
CXfirst
Posts: 3021
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:13 pm

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:44 pm

What about the Pan Am desaster in Tenerife, isn't that technically a transatlantic flight (i know it happened on the runway)?

-CXfirst
 
goinv
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:16 pm

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:54 pm

Not sure of the date but didn't an Air India flight crash west of Ireland - was this terrorism ?

Sorry everyone - just checked - 1985 !

[Edited 2007-02-25 10:56:35]
Be who you are, The world was made to measure for your smile. So Smile.
 
User avatar
WildcatYXU
Posts: 3147
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 2:05 pm

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:09 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 26):
The ridiculous decision to circle back over the Atlantic (with an inflight fire) to dump fuel after receiving landing clearance, is what doomed the aircraft.

Well.Watching the reconstruction of this event on Discovery I was wondering who was more stupid - the Swiss captain asking for clearance to dump fuel above ground or the Canadian ATC sending them back over tha sea... Although many say that they had no chance to land, they were deprived of it by this decision... C'mon, YHZ is in the middle of forest... There are much bigger damages done to the environment in Canada on daily basis than dumping fuel from MD 11...
310, 319, 320, 321, 321N, 332, 333, 343, 345, 346, 732, 735, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 762, 763, 77L, 77W, 788, AT4, AT7, BEH, CR2, CRA, CR9, DH1, DH3, DH4, E45, E75, E90, E95, F28, F50, F100, MD82, Saab 340, YAK40
 
legoguy
Posts: 2981
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:59 pm

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:01 pm

Quoting Nwafflyer (Thread starter):
have a friend who is frightened of flying over the Atlantic. I keep reassuring her, over and over, and finally decided to try and get some facts

Instead of searching for flights that have crashed on the transatlantic routes, perhaps you could find aircraft types that have never crashed before, such as the Boeing 777 or Airbus A340-600. Might make her feel alot safer.
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
 
Daleaholic
Posts: 2655
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 9:38 am

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:54 pm

Quoting Coleplane (Reply 22):
What was the last incident you recall where access to land (ground) would have saved the plane or pax?

I know it's not exactly what you asked but...

I'd probably say the Air Transat 'Glider' flight. Engines failed, electrics failed, hydraulics failed... They managed to glide into the Azores. Everybody on the flight lived but the azores were essential for this.
Religion is an illusion of childhood... Outgrown under proper education.
 
AMSSFO
Posts: 912
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:42 am

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:48 pm

Quoting Coleplane (Reply 22):
Frankly, I'd take my chances over water vs. say... the Andes or Amazon jungle.

or the Northern part of Canada....in the middle of the Winter
 
rootsair
Posts: 4013
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:25 am

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:08 am

Has there been one that has crashed in the MIDDLE of the Alantic ocean or at least 2000 km from any piece of land ?
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
georgiaame
Posts: 1024
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:55 am

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:25 am

Your friend should be much, much more fearful about pulling out of her driveway to get to the airport. That is where the real fear of death should be when one goes trans-Atlantic. In fact, from a statistical standpoint, we might question how many more Americans have died in traffic accidents that occurred simply because they refused to put up with airline "security" and delays, and instead opted to drive to their domestic destinations rather than fly to them. (This of course is heresy, and could get me burned at the stake). I for one am willing to go on a limb and claim that thousands of Americans have died in highway accidents since 9/11, who would be alive today if there was NO attempt at providing the pseudo-security product that the TSA imposes upon us, ostensibly to keep us alive.
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
nwafflyer
Topic Author
Posts: 888
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2004 9:29 am

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:33 am

She's flown before, but never been out of the US. Thanks for the suggestions, I've already showed her the normal route - DTW then over Canada, Newfoundland, near Greenland, Iceland, and then Ireland and Scotland into Amsterdam, and pointed out that she's over land most of the trip - that didn't help.

I need to find a good east coast route, say BOS to Florida, that is almost all over the Atlantic, and show her how foolish she's being - there are domestic flights that spend more time over the ocean than transatlantic flights do

When I tried to give her the statistics about safety, her reaction was something like - ' well, guess another accident is due'
 
IADCA
Posts: 2027
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:42 am

Quoting Coleplane (Reply 22):

I realize this wasn't a trans-Atlantic flight, but one example that comes to mind was the case of ET Flight 961 which was a 762ER hijacked on 11/23/96 and ran out of fuel just off the Comoros. The pilot successfully ditched just a few hundred yards offshore and 52 people actually survived out of 163 on board. Presumably, some more people may have been able to survive if the crash had occurred on land. Not a great example, but it's something.
 
Olympus69
Posts: 1571
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 11:21 pm

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:29 am

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 31):
Well.Watching the reconstruction of this event on Discovery I was wondering who was more stupid - the Swiss captain asking for clearance to dump fuel above ground or the Canadian ATC sending them back over tha sea...

Neither of them were stupid. It takes a given amount of time to descend for a landing. What difference does it make whether that time is spent over land or water? The pilot would still have lost control either way, though lights would have helped. However even if he retained control I very much doubt if he could have found the airport, and would possibly have crashed in a populated area. As for dumping fuel over land, I doubt if environmental concerns were the pilot's top priority.
ATC can only go by what the crew tell them. It took quite a while before they realized the seriousness of the situation. It's easy to criticise with the benefit of hindsight.
 
bingo
Posts: 278
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 11:08 am

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:33 am

Quote:
Instead of searching for flights that have crashed on the transatlantic routes, perhaps you could find aircraft types that have never crashed before, such as the Boeing 777 or Airbus A340-600. Might make her feel alot safer.

I think the glass is half full approach (as youve proposed) is the right answer...
 
pred02
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:08 am

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:46 am

Quoting Nwafflyer (Reply 37):
When I tried to give her the statistics about safety, her reaction was something like - ' well, guess another accident is due'

My suggestion is to get her some benzodiazepines, in the US also known as Valium. Don't abuse it of course, but a few of those and she will likely be out sleeping most of the journey. I know there are air-fear classes, it's all a matter of how far you want to go.

But not visiting Europe for these reasons is ridiculous. People have fears of all sorts of things, and there are professional ways to deal with them...
 
User avatar
WildcatYXU
Posts: 3147
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 2:05 pm

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:54 am

Quoting Olympus69 (Reply 39):

Have you ever been to YHZ? Population is rather sparse around it, it's located 10 miles from Halifax... They wouldn't crash into populated area, that's given. Question is if they could make safely to ground... I guess this one will newer be answered.
310, 319, 320, 321, 321N, 332, 333, 343, 345, 346, 732, 735, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 762, 763, 77L, 77W, 788, AT4, AT7, BEH, CR2, CRA, CR9, DH1, DH3, DH4, E45, E75, E90, E95, F28, F50, F100, MD82, Saab 340, YAK40
 
JuniorSpotter
Posts: 202
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 4:24 pm

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:47 am

I was thinking of Lauda 004, when I suddenly realized that it happened way back in 1991. I could have sworn that I thought it happened later. Oh well. That's not the issue.

Talking about crashes, no matter how low the stats are, won't ease the worries for your friend. What you should do instead, is talk about all the alternatives there are to those who have a fear of flying. Do a quick search on the net, and you'll find lots of methods to help your friend out. But never, ever speak of plane crashes.
If something can go wrong, it will.
 
coleplane
Posts: 171
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:54 pm

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:31 am

Quoting Ual777 (Reply 28):
You cannot land an aircraft over the landing weights unless you want the struts coming up through the cabin.

Wasn't there some debate over this following SR111 and that airframes could withstand a landing with weights in excess? My point being, in a dire situation, landing heavy may be the lesser risk. Sadly, I speculate in hindsight. But I do believe Zimmermann and Loew (or any pilot) would have attempted to land at all costs had they known how bad the situation was.

For many reasons, no other accident in aviation has had more of an impact on me than SR111.
"About a nine on the tension scale there Rupe."
 
awthompson
Posts: 517
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 9:59 pm

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:11 am

Quoting Coleplane (Reply 44):
For many reasons, no other accident in aviation has had more of an impact on me than SR111.

It is interesting how most people have one aviation accident in their mind which stands out more than all the others for one reason or another. I guess that this is because one has studied the accident in detail and has been touched by the sadness of the situation or else a particular aspect of the accident or flight touches something close to home.

For me it was Alaska 261 strangely and perhaps SR 111 next. Both of them very sad because things might have been done differently in hindsight with perhaps less serious outcomes.
 
TrijetsRMissed
Posts: 1983
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:15 pm

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:45 am

Quoting Ual777 (Reply 28):
Ummm, you are a little off. The pilots did not know there was a fire until it was too late. The fire (caused by wire arcing and flammible insulation) was above the cabin. The aircrafts' air circulation system kept all smoke out of the cockpit. The captain actually collapsed from smoke inhalation as the cockpit ceiling was melting. When the a/c kicked off, the cockpit filled with smoke, and the FO was unable to see.

Umm, I am afraid you are a little off. I suggest you do some research because you are clearly misinformed. The pilots were aware of the fire and had declared an emergency with ATC. The plane crashed into the ocean 21 minutes after the crew first smelled the smoke. While the most likely burned for some time before it was discovered, it was known prior to the final moments of the flight.

The circulation fans shut off as a result of the decision to dump fuel, which in turn caused the fire to spread back to the cockpit and a subsequent loss of autopilot and other instruments.

Hopefully you'll able to catch the Nova special on the accident next time it re-airs to get all the facts.

Quoting Ual777 (Reply 28):
You cannot land an aircraft over the landing weights unless you want the struts coming up through the cabin. They simply didn't have all of the information they needed, and one of the NTSB's reccomendations was to install smoke detectors above the cabin.

The bottom line is they did not reach Halifax in time before it was too late, which was the point of my post and the answer to Coleplane's question. It's not even a debate. Swissair emergency procedures differed from that of US airlines. NTSB officials have gone on the record stating that if it was a US airliner the pilots first and foremost would get the plane on the ground as soon as possible when an inflight fire is known. Regardless of weight, a crash landing allows for a better chance of survival than impact with an ocean.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
TrijetsRMissed
Posts: 1983
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:15 pm

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:07 am

Quoting Nwafflyer (Reply 37):
I've already showed her the normal route - DTW then over Canada, Newfoundland, near Greenland, Iceland, and then Ireland and Scotland into Amsterdam, and pointed out that she's over land most of the trip - that didn't help.


Quoting Nwafflyer (Reply 37):
When I tried to give her the statistics about safety, her reaction was something like - ' well, guess another accident is due
That must be frustrating. I have had similar conversations with people who fear flying and it seems like no matter what you say they have a pessimistic response. Just be glad that she is only a friend and not your wife, because at the end of the day it's her loss. She'll be missing out on the many great places in Europe as a result of her stubbornness.

Quoting Awthompson (Reply 45):
For me it was Alaska 261 strangely and perhaps SR 111 next. Both of them very sad because things might have been done differently in hindsight with perhaps less serious outcomes.

It still baffles me how an accident like AS 261 could happen in this day in age. You would think by 2000 airlines in the US would have learned the lessons of the past on the consequences of negligent maintenance. Once the jackscrew jammed they never had a chance.

[Edited 2007-02-26 00:11:50]
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
nwafflyer
Topic Author
Posts: 888
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2004 9:29 am

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:10 am

You've almost got that right -- now she wants me to take (instead) her husband, 3 children and herself to Disneyworld in florida -- she figures if she doesn't go to Scotland, it costs the same

Good Lord, I'm frustrated - I can fly her first class r/t to GLA for less than the cost of the assorted others to Disneyworld
 
TrijetsRMissed
Posts: 1983
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:15 pm

RE: Transatlantic Crashes

Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:17 am

Quoting Nwafflyer (Reply 48):
You've almost got that right --

Sorry, I should have checked your profile first.  embarrassed  I should have said be glad it's just a friend and not a significant other. I'm with you though, I'll take a trip to Europe over Disney World any day.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos