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Cory6188
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B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:53 pm

Apparently, B6 was going to be #4 on BusinessWeek's list of the most customer-service oriented companies in the United States. However, after their recent fiasco, let's just say that BusinessWeek decided to take an interesting stand on the issue...

Take a look at this:



I think it's pretty funny and spot on, but it does seem a little childish, especially coming from such a well-respected magazine. What's your reaction?

[Edited 2007-02-25 15:55:49]
 
flyorski
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:28 am

This is actually very funny.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
 
swiftski
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:32 am

I think they are making a very firm point that from a business POV B6 have ballsed up.

Business is like politics - you can make bold statements like that if they're accurate, but not if they're not. In this case, business week is safe and accurate. I'm interested to read their article inside.
 
BigGSFO
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:33 am

Funny but I wouldn't say they were "bashed" as the title of the thread states. Their Feb. meltdown was indeed "one extraordinary stumble".
 
justloveplanes
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:46 am

Is this all really B6's fault? Isn't the FAA really to blame and if so, why all the cheap shots by the print media? It wouldn't speak well for the media at all - that would not be journalism, but carnival side show sensationalism by a reputed business publication.

It is an EXTREMELY sad state of affairs in biz jounalism if this is the case.

Haven't read the other threads on this in detail, but would B6 have been breaking an FAA rule by going back to the gate during the delay?
 
Cory6188
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:47 am

Quoting Swiftski (Reply 2):
I'm interested to read their article inside.

Here you go. Honestly, I think that it's pretty well-written - while the cover might be a little extreme, I think that they were pretty fair and unbiased in their evaluation of B6's issues in the past few weeks.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...+customer+service_customer+service
 
JetBlueGuy2006
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:05 am

Quoting Justloveplanes (Reply 4):
Is this all really B6's fault? Isn't the FAA really to blame and if so, why all the cheap shots by the print media?

I think the FAA is partly to blame. They probably gave some spotty info to B6. Having said that, jetBlue should have known better. Leaving pax on the tarmac for 8+ hours is unacceptable no matter whos fault it is.

Just my .02
Home Airport: Capital Region International Airport (KLAN)
 
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aloha73g
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:09 am

I think Business Week is making the very valid and true point that a companies actions in ONE situation can completely change the public's perception of them.

Consider the classic case of Tylenol quickly pulling ALL of its product off the shelves nationwide because of isolated poisonings (good decision.....good publicity.....long lasting respect from the public). JetBlue made a few bad decisions which were compounded/coused by something out of their control (bad decision....bad publicity.....loss of respect from the public).

Being that this story/survey was probabaly planned for months, it was purely luck that JetBlue's "meltdown" was days before it was published. Business Week would be irresponsible to ignore it. Can you imagine the outcry if they had left JetBlue on their cover as a "Customer Service Champ" after what happened??? THAT would be irresponsible

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WMUPilot
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:25 am

Quoting Justloveplanes (Reply 4):
Is this all really B6's fault? Isn't the FAA really to blame and if so, why all the cheap shots by the print media? It wouldn't speak well for the media at all - that would not be journalism, but carnival side show sensationalism by a reputed business publication.

I really don't see how it's anybody's fault but our own. The FAA didn't force us to leave customers on airplanes for 11 hours.
JetBlue - Bringing humanity back to air travel
 
halls120
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:36 am

Quoting Justloveplanes (Reply 4):
Is this all really B6's fault? Isn't the FAA really to blame and if so,

 Wow! You are kidding, right?

Quoting WMUPilot (Reply 8):
I really don't see how it's anybody's fault but our own. The FAA didn't force us to leave customers on airplanes for 11 hours.

Thank you for stating the obvious.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
gokmengs
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:06 am

Quoting Cory6188 (Thread starter):
I think it's pretty funny and spot on, but it does seem a little childish, especially coming from such a well-respected magazine. What's your reaction?

As a long time subscriber to BW, I don't think the cover is childish, its creative to say the least. Also you have to take in to account that B6 dropped the ball big time last week because of the weather, and it shows that if it wasn't for that they would be in that list.
Yaşa Mustafa Kemal Paşa Yaşa, Adın Yazılacak Mücevher Taşa
 
Eagle11
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:40 am

I don't have a problem at all with the cover. As a matter of fact, I think it's very well done.

Quoting Justloveplanes (Reply 4):
Isn't the FAA really to blame

 no 
"The Eagle has landed"
 
stlgph
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:10 am

Quoting Justloveplanes (Reply 4):
Is this all really B6's fault? Isn't the FAA really to blame and if so, why all the cheap shots by the print media?

after Northwest had a little scuffle in Detroit ... this is far from a cheap shot. this is more of a "pull your head out of your ass" shot.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:13 am

Here's the article...take a look at the comments afterward. It seems like the public doesn't like how BW is bashing JetBlue.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_10/b4024004.htm

This was an extraordinary stumble - I agree - but this doesn't negate the amazing service that they'd had in the past. I also think that DN's reaction is truly indicative of this airline's personality, and that alone should be reason enough to keep JetBlue on the list.

JetBluefan1
 
Jimbo83
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:25 am

The media needs to get the hell over it! Weather events happen, and not just to jetBlue. The only reason everyone is bashing B6 is because they are industry darlings. If they taxied out because the FAA told them they had a slot then they based their decision off of what the FAA told them and the FAA is the ruling body in the matter. All this negative attention is being focused on the fact that they had numerous stranded passenger and none of it is being focused on the compensation in which they are providing those passengers. What other airline would have compensated their passengers so well? Would you expect AA, NW, UA or DL to compensate in the way B6 did? Probably not. B6 is so customer-oriented and they want to win these customers back, I don't think the same can be said for most other airlines.

Jimbo83
 
JetBlueAUS
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:40 am

Quoting Jimbo83 (Reply 14):
B6 is so customer-oriented and they want to win these customers back, I don't think the same can be said for most other airlines.

Keep in mind, 9/10... People that say that they will never fly an airline again will go back and fly them and have their minds changed.
Not all of us can be heroes, some of us can only stand on the sidewalk and clap as they go by.
 
lincoln
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:48 am

I have to say, it does make me want to pick up a copy of Business Week to see their spin on the "stumble" and what the other 20 companies are and I don't thnk it's childish at all. Childish would be posting a video of a meeting with Business Week editors rolling on the floor laughing and pointing their fingers at Nelleman to YouTube

Quoting Justloveplanes (Reply 4):
Isn't the FAA really to blame

I'm curious why you think that the FAA is to blame?

Quoting Justloveplanes (Reply 4):
Haven't read the other threads on this in detail, but would B6 have been breaking an FAA rule by going back to the gate during the delay?

I can't think of any rule that could possibly would have been broken -- and if there were it may be arguable that the captain's emergency authority would escape that (as in the health and saftety of the passengers is arguably at risk).

Lincoln
CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
 
LASoctoberB6
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:48 am

Quoting JetBlueAUS (Reply 15):

Keep in mind, 9/10... People that say that they will never fly an airline again will go back and fly them and have their minds changed.

well i'd fly them anyday. they've had great service in the past and will continue to have great service. things happen, its not the end of the world. yes, they should have made better decisions, but the past is the past, let bygones be bygones....
[NOT IN SERVICE] {WEStJet}
 
WesternA318
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:53 am

Did anyone else fail to see atthe bottom ofthe ocver, the headline: "What will Carl Icahn buy next?" *shivers at the thought*
 
NASBWI
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:04 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 18):
Did anyone else fail to see atthe bottom ofthe ocver, the headline: "What will Carl Icahn buy next?" *shivers at the thought*

LOL! I just read something on him the other day...made my stomach turn. He basically made no apology for his butchering of TWA...and claimed that others would agree with his decisions. I wish I remembered that magazine.
Fierce, Fabulous, and Flawless ;)
 
halls120
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:24 am

Quoting JetBlueAUS (Reply 15):
Keep in mind, 9/10... People that say that they will never fly an airline again will go back and fly them and have their minds changed.

True. But after several crappy flights on USAirways over the years, I now only fly on USAirways when I absolutely have no other option.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
WesternA318
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:26 am

Quoting NASBWI (Reply 19):
LOL! I just read something on him the other day...made my stomach turn. He basically made no apology for his butchering of TWA...and claimed that others would agree with his decisions. I wish I remembered that magazine.

You know, I just recently heard Iron Maidens classic "Be Quick or Be Dead" and BOY, everything thats being said matches what Icahn did to TWA...

"Covered in sinners and dripping with guilt
Making you money from slime and from filth
Parading your bellies in ivory towers
Investing our lives in your schemes and your powers"
 
JetBlueGuy2006
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:34 am

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 16):
I'm curious why you think that the FAA is to blame?

I think that B6 probably had some FAA weather people telling them that they might be able to get out in addition to them wanting to get people out.

Just my thought.
Home Airport: Capital Region International Airport (KLAN)
 
halls120
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:42 am

Quoting JetBlueGuy2006 (Reply 22):
I think that B6 probably had some FAA weather people telling them that they might be able to get out in addition to them wanting to get people out.

Just my thought.

You "think" that B6 "probably" had FAA telling them what they could accomplish?

Any sources for this revelation, or does it come from your Ouija board?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
WesternA318
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:46 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 23):
Any sources for this revelation, or does it come from your Ouija board?

 spit  WOW...now thats funny..
 
stlgph
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:15 am

Quoting Jimbo83 (Reply 14):
The media needs to get the hell over it! Weather events happen, and not just to jetBlue.

no. people react to weather-related events and accidents more than any other type of news. the fact they were left on a plane literally hundreds of feet from workers that could have come and let them off of the plane in some way shape or form for 11 hours is the news.

Quoting Jimbo83 (Reply 14):
All this negative attention is being focused on the fact that they had numerous stranded passenger and none of it is being focused on the compensation in which they are providing those passengers.

big deal. the point is ... 11 hours on a plane to begin with.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
G5
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:31 am

Wow, some interesting comments. I've never flown jetBlue (they don't visit MSP) but I would like to as one of my patients is a captain for B6. They have a good business plan and good people, but overall this was a huge mistake on the part of the airline-plain and simple. Might I remind people that when David Neeleman went out and solicited the biggest financing package in history for an airline start-up, he did so under the premise that he wanted to "bring the humanity back to flying." Obviously they didn't live up to Neeleman's intentions here.

Interestingly, there is a brief article on jetBlue in the April 2007 issue of Airways Magazine.

This whole weather situation was a major screw up! Someone within the jetBlue management should have stepped up made the decision to deplane passengers after things started to escalate. No one did and the press jumped all over the incident because it got so big. But as they say, even bad press is good press and I think it's safe to say that jetBlue will come out the other side-hopefully a little wiser, and with the realization that they've got issues to deal with. When you grow so big, so fast, you're likely to overlook the little things that can lead to big problems. It's like that show "Seconds From Disaster" where a lot of little issues eventually add up to cause a major disaster. Luckily in this incident nobody died.

BTW, I agree with the earlier statements regarding US Airways. Flew them for the first...and last..time this last week. Late flights, equipment issues, rude employees-would not wish the experience on anyone! Thank God they weren't able to take over Delta-they seemingly have enough problems in their own house to deal with.
 
baw716
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:58 pm

Well, I thought I was going to come down on the side of jetBlue on this one...until I saw David Neeleman on Letterman and a couple of other appearances he's made on TV lately. I am less certain that he has a grip after listening to him...and I am very concerned as a result for the long term viability of B6.

Neeleman went to great lengths to say that he was sorry, that they made mistakes and this was "NEVER" going to happen again. When Letterman asked Neeleman a direct question about why jetBlue was affected more than other carriers at JFK, he ducked the question and went back to the "company line". He went on to say that they have come up with a passenger's bill of rights that has teeth and they are going to put their money where his mouth is.

What occurs to me is that a) he doesn't have a grip on the fundamentals of what happened to the carrier, which was for all practical purposes a complete operational meltdown and b) he doesn't have an answer. However, he is promising that they have fixed the problems and the events that happened at JFK will never happen again. I have gone to great lengths to repeat the word 'never' twice, since he used that word and in this business, there are two words that you don't use...always and NEVER.

The problems that happened to jetBlue are the direct result of an airline that has outgrown its organizational infrastructure. They do not have any of the tools they need to fix the problems they have to achieve his promise and this is the biggest problem I have with the statements he has made. Examples:

a) David Neeleman has connections, but he doesn't have the kind of connections necessary to change the weather. To promise that this event will never happen again is a promise that he cannot keep; weather will cause disruptions of the airline. The question is, how will the airline respond when a weather event takes down JFK? This is something over which he does have a degree of control.

b) Why did the events at JFK cause a greater disruption to jetBlue than other carriers at JFK? Answer: jetBlue's entire operation is built around one airport -- JFK. Every flight that jetBlue operates touches JFK at some point during the day (if the information that I have been provided is correct) and with a single hub operation at a weather affected airport, if that airport has a major operational crisis, the carrier is going to take a serious customer service hit.

c) jetBlue has outgrown its operational infrastructure at JFK. It has taken over all of Terminal 6 at JFK, but with the volume of traffic that they have, there is no room to handle the volume of passengers in the terminal; hence, the reasoning for getting the passengers on the aircraft and getting them out.

They also did not have the volume of de-icing equipment needed to get all the aircraft de-iced and in a position to get out; although I am not convinced that this would have made a difference; if an aircraft is not de-iced within five minutes of takeoff, in the conditions encountered at JFK on that day, there is no way that they could have gotten the aircraft out period.

Finally, I am pretty convinced that the passengers were kept on the aircraft because the carrier did not have adequate staffing to handle the deplaning and handling of those passengers in the terminal. Neeleman's statements about why they could not get people off the aircraft were simply not credible. They could have gotten the passengers off; the only reason that they kept them onboard was to avoid a riot in the terminal (which is what would have happened, since the personnel couldn't deal with the situation).

d) I have heard that a number of crews went illegal during the delays and consequently, there were crews and aircraft out of position. Again, this is the case of a small carrier growing too fast and not having reserve crews in position to relief those that were out of time. I am less convinced in this case that it would have made a difference, since if the aircraft can't be moved, you can have all the reserve crews in the world and it won't help.

e) Southwest cancelled 4 times the number of flights and they did not have anywhere near the problems that jetBlue had. The reason is simple: Southwest is everywhere and does not have a single city that it calls a hub. That and the aircraft and crew scheduling capabilities of Southwest make it less likely that they will have the kind of meltdown that occurred to jetBlue. IF a carrier has the capability to spread operations out across the system in such a manner that even if a large number of flights are cancelled, they can re-start their operation with little downtime, events such as those encountered at large airports can be mitigated.

f) I also understand that the communications infrastrature at jetBlue failed during this crisis. Why this occurred is unknown to me, although the only educated guess that I can make is that the volume of irregular ops encountered by the carrier at JFK overwhelmed the capacity of its infrastructure to cope. Again, this is a case of the carrier growing faster than its infrastructure.

So, what does this all mean?

It points to one key answe: The airline has grown faster than the airline's infrastructure. This means that jetBlue management, at a senior level has made some particularly seriously bad decisions. Conceptually, the carrier is trying to stay "small" in its philosophy and maintain a low cost structure. With the route system and flying that it currently is undertaking, it can no longer do this, to the detriment of its passengers. I haven't even started talking about the decision to take on the E190, which, while giving the carrier increased flexibility, also increases it's operating costs dramatically...another subject for another thread.

What is worse is that, in order to put a finger in the dike, jetBlue management and David Neeleman in particular has come up with this "passenger bill of rights" that pays passengers for service failures on the part of the airline. I have a firm belief that if you are a service company and you make a mistake, you have to make it right for the customer, especially in this industry in which one big mistake can wipe out 100 successes. While jetBlue should be commended for putting themselves out there, the problem with the timing of this "bill of rights" is that it is a kneejerk reaction to a single very bad meltdown of the airline, the initial cause of which was weather related. It also smacks of pandering to the passengers.

The cascade effect of the operational meltdown that Neeleman has described in his interviews is completely due to the inability of management to adapt their operation to the realities of the growth of the carrier. Placing this bill of rights in place BEFORE the airline has addressed these issues is potentially dangerous for the long term survival of the airline because if the airline cannot deliver on these promises, it isn't going to matter what the passenger gets paid in vouchers for the inconvenience. The passenger will go somewhere else...and there are still plenty of choices out there..oh and that charge considerably less for an airline seat than jetBlue.

Having been through the experience of September 11 and its aftermath, which was, in my opinion, the single largest meltdown of the air travel system in this country and perhaps in the world, has left me with some very good lessons about how to recover from bad events. It is all about making a sincere effort to make things right for the customer. This means communication, communication and more communication. It also means being proactive where possible to mitigate the cascade effects of flight cancellations, lost baggage, disruptions of service and the entire gambit of s--t that goes wrong pretty much all at once.

jetBlue is in panic mode trying to restore its public image when it should be spending its time looking at the entire operation from A to Z to review how to remake the airline in such a way that when a weather event happens, the entire airline doesn't meltdown. I have heard many things about David Neeleman, both good and bad. He has built a great success at jetBlue...but their financial problems are, to a large degree, a result of its dramatic growth.

Now, I do want to say one thing here: I believe that there are a lot of very hard working, very dedicated people that work for jetBlue, and right now, times are tough for them. My message to them is to hang in there and if you have a good idea, push it up to management...and keep pushing. You have a good thing going; but you can't afford another event the likes of what happened at JFK.

Perhaps it is time for someone else to come in and run the carrier, someone who can transition jetBlue from the "small carrier" operation mentality it has now to something different, something that will make it better for the passengers the next time a weather event happens, instead of getting on Letterman and saying, "we made some mistakes and we're sorry"...maybe being truthful and saying that they have work to do to fix these problems and then get them fixed. If they don't, jetBlue will become a legacy carrier in no time...and a dinosaur very soon thereafter.

We all know what happened to the dinosaur...

baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
WesternA318
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:39 pm

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 27):
David Neeleman has connections, but he doesn't have the kind of connections necessary to change the weather

All he has to do is call Gordon B Hinckley! Just kidding...

Another look at the meltdown and its aftermath can be seen at:

www.blog.myspace.com/flightvault

Hope that also adds fuel to the fire!
 
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Jamake1
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:53 pm

BAW716: Very insightful and well-written post. I agree with your assessment, however I will give Jet Blue credit where it is due, and that is at least they stepped up to the plate and owned their mistakes and then deployed a strategy for providing a level of compensation to the stranded travelers. The legacies have been guilty of similar incidents and it took a class-action suit in order for those airlines to caugh up some sort of compensation package. Furthermore, I think that the airlines have proven that they have failed in voluntarily policing themselves. After the NWA debacle in DTW, all of the airlines rolled out some sort of "customer commitment" policy, yet airline passengers continue to be held hostage on flights during irregular operations. It simply is not acceptable. Last winter it was Delta passengers in ATL, this past December it was AA in AUS, and UA in Cheyenne. In the case of UA/UAX, United only agreed to providing compensation/reimbursement when they learned that USA TODAY was about to break the story. Industry has never been very good at self-regulation...
Come fly the sun.
 
halls120
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:04 pm

Quoting Jamake1 (Reply 29):
BAW716: Very insightful and well-written post. I agree with your assessment, however I will give Jet Blue credit where it is due, and that is at least they stepped up to the plate and owned their mistakes and then deployed a strategy for providing a level of compensation to the stranded travelers.

You are missing the point, I fear. Saying you are sorry and providing for a compensation regime is like freshly painting a house that has dry rot. It will look good until the next storm comes along.

JetBlue should be spending more time and money addressing the factors that led to their inability to respond to this storm instead of creating a feel-good "passenger bill of rights."

I don't want compensation from an airline. I want them to get me to my destination in a safe and timely manner.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
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Jamake1
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:16 pm

No. You're absolutely right. They ought to be taking a very hard look at their systemic problems, but the other airlines have blundered nearly as badly during irregular ops...and have continued to do so even after the fallout from the NWA incident, yet they've done little to make amends to the passengers that they've held hostage, other than a letter of apology and $25 off on a future flight...that was my point.
Come fly the sun.
 
B6sFinest
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:17 pm

Well, Atleast we were being considered for one of the top in customer service. I didnt see any other airlines up at the top. Its just the media being childish. Jetblue has done more for the commercial flying in 7 years than most airlines have done in there entire operating history...
Got Blue?
 
halls120
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:26 pm

Quoting B6sFinest (Reply 32):
Jetblue has done more for the commercial flying in 7 years than most airlines have done in there entire operating history...

Like what?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
adizzy
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:59 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 33):
Like what?

They brought humanity back to air travel......kinda like Justin Timberlake brought SexyBack!
 
nkops
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:09 pm

I'm curious, on flight releases.. where does the weather come from, the FAA or does it come from National Weather Service or somewhere else??

Quoting Justloveplanes (Reply 4):
but would B6 have been breaking an FAA rule by going back to the gate during the delay?

Planes do gate returns all the time for wx, mx etc. No rules broken by doing that. The problem here was B6 had no gates to go back to at this point.
Turn left heading 080 contact departure
 
bifster
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:34 pm

The Business Week cover is spot on the money. jetBlue was the customer service darling for such a long time and they did make a stumble. It's o.k. as they'll recover and all will be forgotten as customers vote with their wallets. The comparisons to previous failed airlines are a bit far-reaching, although if you want to force similarities, you certainly can although I don't share some enthusiasm for doing so.
 
ClearedDirect
Posts: 198
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 10:57 pm

RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:09 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 30):
JetBlue should be spending more time and money addressing the factors that led to their inability to respond to this

How do you know they are not??

I believe Neeleman has made it very clear that they are.
 
B6sFinest
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:34 am

RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:43 am

Like What???? What do any of the legacies dp for you? Jetblue is a diffrent kind of airline and has gone above and beyond for the last 7 yrs.We make one mistake that we apologize and more than make up for it but its still not good enough!
Got Blue?
 
adizzy
Posts: 140
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:27 am

RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:16 am

Quoting B6sFinest (Reply 38):
What do any of the legacies dp for you? Jetblue is a diffrent kind of airline and has gone above and beyond for the last 7 yrs.We make one mistake that we apologize and more than make up for it but its still not good enough!

I soooooooooo agree with you! The media should bash other airlines for their cancellations and give B6 a BREAK! I am so tired of it being plastered all over everything. If you go to whdh.com the main storm is JetBlue cancels 67 flights! I was amazed this morning when the news was talking about all the cancelled flights in ORD....they made it seems as if it was JB who cancelled hundreds of flights to ORD-they dont even fly that many there!


I dont work for JB yet......Im interviewing with B6 in BOS on Wed.....and would love to work for them because there really is no other airline out there like them...but i feel bad for people that do work for them and all the negativity they are getting for something they cannot control!
 
n844aa
Posts: 1266
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:38 am

RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:29 am

Quoting B6sFinest (Reply 38):
Like What???? What do any of the legacies dp for you? Jetblue is a diffrent kind of airline and has gone above and beyond for the last 7 yrs.We make one mistake that we apologize and more than make up for it but its still not good enough!

No, I'd be interested to hear an answer to his question. What makes B6 a different kind of airline when they're clearly just as susceptible (or more so) to a passenger-unfriendly meltdown as legacy airlines? I'll go ahead and admit right now I've never flown B6 -- when they do fly where I want to go, the price is usually higher than the legacy where I've got FF benefits and a chance at an upgrade -- but from what I've heard, I don't think they're the only airline to have cracked the secret of good customer service. And people aren't so interested in apologies. Don't get me wrong, they have their place, but let me hear the apology on day one, and on subsequent days, tell me what you're going to do to prevent the transgression from happening again.

The level of contrition shown by B6 management this week has been very impressive, and if the words are backed up by actions, I think a lot of B6's current problems are well on their way to being resolved. We'll see how that goes. But I think there's entirely too much emphasis being placed on the Passenger Bill of Rights. It's all well and good to compensate your inconvenienced passengers, but if the BoR becomes a way to throw money at the problem without introducing procedures to prevent the situation from occurring in the first place, they won't have progressed and will likely be in worse shape as before. Now, I doubt that'll happen -- it seems to fly in the face of their customer service philosophy, and besides, they can't really afford it right now -- but at this point, I don't think anything is particularly clear.
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:48 am

Quoting B6sFinest (Reply 32):
Jetblue has done more for the commercial flying in 7 years than most airlines have done in there entire operating history...

I'm sorry, I was just gonna read this thread til I got to this.

All I gotta say is  rotfl 

B6 is good, very good, but they are wet behind the ears pups compared to damn near ANY commercial aviation company flying in the United States. There is no way to compare the small - significant but miniscule - contributions that B6 has made to the industry with the likes of American, United, Continental, Alaska - and the former Pan Am, one of thethegreatest airlines of all time - in all facets of operation. All airlines have their issues. B6 is no exception. But putting them on a God-like pedestal is just plain  silly  .

B6 has no one to blame but themselves. Leaving people on an aircraft for 11 hours is inexcuseable, period, end of story. Can't blame the FAA, can't blame the weather, can't blame the Ouija board (very good by the way Halls), only B6 is to blame.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
richierich
Moderator
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RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:11 am

Quoting N844AA (Reply 40):
The level of contrition shown by B6 management this week has been very impressive, and if the words are backed up by actions, I think a lot of B6's current problems are well on their way to being resolved. We'll see how that goes. But I think there's entirely too much emphasis being placed on the Passenger Bill of Rights. It's all well and good to compensate your inconvenienced passengers, but if the BoR becomes a way to throw money at the problem without introducing procedures to prevent the situation from occurring in the first place, they won't have progressed and will likely be in worse shape as before. Now, I doubt that'll happen -- it seems to fly in the face of their customer service philosophy, and besides, they can't really afford it right now -- but at this point, I don't think anything is particularly clear.

I completely hear your point, and I think you are right. But how exactly will they prove it won't happen again? I'm sure that if there are changes made behind the scenes, most people will not be aware of it. The proof will be in the pudding, and I suspect that there will not be another meltdown of anything close to that magnitude. As you said, they can't afford it.... they have made a $$$ committment to the pax that it won't happen. Now it is up to them to show that they don't want to lose any more $$$ for BoR compensation.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 41):
There is no way to compare the small - significant but miniscule - contributions that B6 has made to the industry with the likes of American, United, Continental, Alaska - and the former Pan Am, one of thethegreatest airlines of all time - in all facets of operation. All airlines have their issues. B6 is no exception. But putting them on a God-like pedestal is just plain .

First of all, let me come out and say that as much as I like JetBlue, I never ever put them on a "God-like" pedastal. Clearly they are still a relatively new and young airline, and I don't think anyone can say they have "revolutionized" this industry. However, in 7 short years, I think they have made some decent contributions and industry firsts: the satellite tv being an obvious one. AFAIK, they are still the only airline with free tv offered on all of their flights. Not earth-shattering, but significant nonetheless, especially when you consider they are an LCC. They are also the first, and only, LCC based in NYC - an area few LCCs have even ventured before. I am old enough to remember lots of people on this very website saying they'd never survive here in New York, certainly not at JFK! I think B6 has proved the skeptics wrong time and time again. Lets not also forget that the largest terrorism to strike on US soil was only 15 miles away from their home base, and yet they survived while other airlines were left reeling.

None of this means that JetBlue has dramatically changed air travel, at least not compared to the history that AA, UA, PanAm have. But they have succeeded where others said they wouldn't. As a regular coach flyer in NYC, I can say that their product today is A LOT better than most domestic coach products of a decade ago. Other airlines have improved since then - some might say because of B6 - I don't know.

They are not the best airline in the world. They are not the most significant thing to happen to aviation since the Wright Brothers (somebody on here wrote that once...). But they are a worthy airline that has brought enough to the table to be different, and as such, survive. We are all very well aware of the events of last weekend, a mere blip on the history of JetBlue, but it is my belief that they will recover from this and continue to offer their loyal customers a reasonable, consistent coach product.
None shall pass!!!!
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:14 am

Quoting ADiZzy (Reply 34):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 33):
Like what?

They brought humanity back to air travel......kinda like Justin Timberlake brought SexyBack!

First of all, the words "Justin Timberlake" and "sexy" do not belong in the same sentence. Second of all, sexy in fact never left, it's just that he never had it, but thought he did, and is now trying to bring his corrupted version to a world that has, to be perfectly honest, moved on.

And regarding what JetBlue has done for the aviation industry, they've shown that one can profitably operate a low-cost carrier while still providing amenities on par with (or in some cases beyond) what the major airlines are offering. That's not insignificant, but when you put it on par with the opening of the world to the common traveller that airlines like American, United, Delta, Pan Am and others were able to accomplish, it's not that impressive. Bringing humanity back to air travel? Well, they may be on their way to doing that, but if they were to disappear tomorrow, the "JetBlue Experience" would disappear with them. That can't be said for some of the accomplishments of other airlines, that still endure long after the airline itself was forced to close its operations.

So let's not go around calling JetBlue the second coming of Christ. It's a very good airline that has a few significant shortcomings (foremost being that when things go wrong, they go really wrong).

And if they were the second coming of Christ, they'd surely be flying good solid god-fearing American-made Boeing planes, not that communist gay-agenda-promoting European Airbus junk.  duck   Smile

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:21 am

Quoting Richierich (Reply 42):
First of all, let me come out and say that as much as I like JetBlue, I never ever put them on a "God-like" pedastal.

Wasn't you I quoted either . . . . see immediately below:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 41):
Quoting B6sFinest (Reply 32):
Jetblue has done more for the commercial flying in 7 years than most airlines have done in there entire operating history...



Quoting Richierich (Reply 42):
However, in 7 short years, I think they have made some decent contributions and industry firsts: the satellite tv being an obvious one.

No question. They have made momentous strides. No question.

Quoting Richierich (Reply 42):
I think B6 has proved the skeptics wrong time and time again.

No question.

Quoting Richierich (Reply 42):
Lets not also forget that the largest terrorism to strike on US soil was only 15 miles away from their home base, and yet they survived while other airlines were left reeling.

Proper funding and management coupled with a limited market and well thought out expansion with new aircraft will do that for you. But you're right, they did well.

Quoting Richierich (Reply 42):
But they are a worthy airline that has brought enough to the table to be different, and as such, survive.

Once again, no question.

I'm not bashing B6 here at all.

I'm laughing at the post above that declares they've done more in 7 years for commercial aviation in this country than any other carrier ever has . . . . that's simply ridiculous.

Just a quick gander at the history of Pan Am, or even a smaller carrier like AS, will prove that in a millisecond. B6 is good, they are very good, but they are not - as was just mentioned - the second coming of Christ to the airline industry.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
n844aa
Posts: 1266
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:38 am

RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:48 am

Quoting Richierich (Reply 42):
But how exactly will they prove it won't happen again? I'm sure that if there are changes made behind the scenes, most people will not be aware of it. The proof will be in the pudding, and I suspect that there will not be another meltdown of anything close to that magnitude.

I think this is probably right. I hope it's right, anyway. I don't expect them to lay out the complete plan of operational revisions; obviously very few passengers would care and it would put them at a competitive disadvantage. So none of us observers really have a choice except to see what happens next winter when the next unexpected storm hits after they've had a chance to implement operational changes.

I'm not saying that if they suffer another JFK meltdown, then they'll have failed. I think the more relevant (though not perfect) metric is how they compare to the airline airlines with significant operations at JFK next time a situation like this occurs. But as I said, even that's unfair since no one else has their operation so concentrated at JFK. Come to think of it, are there any American airlines B6's size with so many of their operations based on a single airport?

The more I think about it, the more interesting I think your question is. From a passenger's or observer's perspective, how will we know that B6 has solved the problems that plagued them this month? Any thoughts on relevant or useful criteria? Again, I don't think we can say, "Well, if anyone gets stuck on a plane for eight hours, then they've failed." Not necessarily; shit happens sometimes, and that may have been the safest course of action possible at that point in time. As I said, part of it will be, are their operations as hamstrung as other airlines at the same airport? But I'm wondering if there are any more objective criteria we'd want to look at.
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:00 am

Quoting N844AA (Reply 45):
Come to think of it, are there any American airlines B6's size with so many of their operations based on a single airport?

F9, I guess. Or FL. We saw what happened to F9 when DEN got shut down by the blizzard.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
richierich
Moderator
Posts: 3632
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2000 5:49 am

RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:18 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 44):
I'm laughing at the post above that declares they've done more in 7 years for commercial aviation in this country than any other carrier ever has . . . . that's simply ridiculous.

Just a quick gander at the history of Pan Am, or even a smaller carrier like AS, will prove that in a millisecond. B6 is good, they are very good, but they are not - as was just mentioned - the second coming of Christ to the airline industry.

I realize that your response was not directed at me. I just wanted to clearly state that (a) not all JetBlue fans feel they are the Second Coming of Anything (we tend to be a little bit more realistic), and (b) that jetBlue's accomplishments are not insignificant, as you correctly said. Times are different now - barring space travel or new techonologies that brings supersonic travel back - I thinks its fair to say to no airline can "revolutionize" this industry the way those giants did. Even those airlines that you mentioned that are still around are not in a position to "re-revolutionize" this industry, in my opinion... commercial aviation is very much about "what have you done for me lately". Thus, the demise of the truly loyal traveler.

Quoting Mir (Reply 46):
F9, I guess. Or FL. We saw what happened to F9 when DEN got shut down by the blizzard.

I'm not buying this one hub versus two hub argument. Of course F9 was more heavily impacted than UA because of the DEN storm - no question - and B6 would have been more heavily impacted than either DL or AA b/c of the Valentine's Day storm in NYC no matter what happened. But with a multi-hub airline like UA, its not like just their DEN flights were affected. Just about every major UA hub had cancellations, delays, etc., as a result of the snowstorm in Denver. People who don't understand the commercial airline business always fail to understand how a storm thousands of miles away can affect their flight!

However, the issue with B6 is different. Its not that they had delays or cancellations as a result of a storm at their home base. It was because they didn't handle the storm well. They made some tactical errors that compounded the situation instead of making it better... this is the real issue.
None shall pass!!!!
 
baw716
Posts: 1463
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:02 pm

RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:23 am

Well, Neeleman's promise didn't last long, did it? I understand today that B6 is having another round of severe headaches at JFK which is wreaking havoc around their system. This is really sad, because B6 (employees) are taking a serious beating and the fault lies much higher up the food chain.

Jamake1: Appreciate the comments. WesternA318: Not real sure he can help either...but what the heck. After today, I'd be on the phone to my friends at the Vatican.  Smile

B6sFinest: I feel your pain. I've been recovering from a very nasty C-spine surgery 18 days ago and I don't think my pain comes close to what you are going through. Good news for me is that I am getting better slowly. The fact that I can type and think at the same time means that the electrics between brain and hand are working (they weren't before). The good news for you is that the same thing will happen...communications, brainstorming then plan development and ACTION!. What I really hope is that your management team listens to what you (and others) tell them about what needs to happen, since it's my experience that the people who live the problem have the best solutions. It won't happen overnight...but if you need input, send me a private message and I'll send you my e-mail address and I'll do my best to give you a confidential opinion (in other words, it won't get posted anywhere...my apologies to my fellow a.netters).

I truly hope that jetBlue pulls through this crisis of confidence. As I said before, it isn't going to be easy or happen overnight. However, if everyone pulls in the same direction and checks their egos at the door, given what the airline has been able to accomplish since its inception, there is every reason to believe that B6 will come out the better for it.

For us, the traveling public, we can regain confidence in jetBlue; a carrier that frankly has shown that a carrier can be low cost and high quality. I also believe some of these solutions will also resolve the profitability problems that has plagued B6 over the past year...as what I described in my earlier post also has an impact on the airline's profitability.

Let's see what happens next.

baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
richierich
Moderator
Posts: 3632
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2000 5:49 am

RE: B6 Gets Bashed On Cover Of BusinessWeek

Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:41 am

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 48):
Well, Neeleman's promise didn't last long, did it? I understand today that B6 is having another round of severe headaches at JFK which is wreaking havoc around their system. This is really sad, because B6 (employees) are taking a serious beating and the fault lies much higher up the food chain.

I don't recall Neeleman's "promise" having anything to do with the weather. There is always going to be crappy weather, we all know that. JetBlue cancelled flights, it sounds like they did a much better job this time around than last time. Having people stuck on a plane for three hours is hardly good, but it is within the realm of "reasonable" unlike what happened last week. And, unlike other airlines that routinely do similar things, the article states that these passengers will be compensated thanks to JetBlue's self-imposed BoRs.

This was just one storm, and living in the area myself, I can say that this storm did not compare to the one on Valentine's Day. The accumulations were similar but the composition of snow and ice was not. This storm was snow that turned into a wet slush; last week's storm came down as ice and stayed frozen. Yes, JetBlue made it through this test with only minor glitches... the real test maybe next week, next month, or even next year.
None shall pass!!!!

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