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Logos
Topic Author
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JetBlue Leads MCO In Runway Delays

Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:24 am

The Orlando Sentinel, in a page one exclusive, is reporting today that jetBlue leads MCO in runway delays, attempting to show that their recent meltdown is indicative of wider operational problems. There are those who have spoken to this problem here before, but the extreme nature of their recent operational meltdown is obviously putting the whole airline under a microscope.

The text of the article is available here:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/busin...4188.story?coll=orl-home-headlines

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando

[Edited 2007-02-25 22:25:34]
Too many types flown to list
 
OPNLguy
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RE: JetBlue Leads MCO In Runway Delays

Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:29 am

Well, it's not like EWR and JFK ever get ATC delays, or Washington ARTCC has delays for transiting their airspace to these airports...

I think the paper doesn't understand the context here...

[Edited 2007-02-25 22:30:08]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
TransWorldSTL
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RE: JetBlue Leads MCO In Runway Delays

Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:37 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 1):
Well, it's not like EWR and JFK ever get ATC delays, or Washington ARTCC has delays for transiting their airspace to these airports...

I think the paper doesn't understand the context here...

I agree.. They just wanted to sell papers.

I do hope this big mess will really make B6 realize that they shouldn't put all their eggs in one basket! Especially and overcrowded basket.
 
Logos
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RE: JetBlue Leads MCO In Runway Delays

Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:42 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 1):
I think the paper doesn't understand the context here...

While I agree with you to a point (it is, after all, a newspaper), the article does mention the fact of airspace congestion in the New York area and raises some fair comparisons with Continental to EWR and Delta to LGA.

I thought this quote was rather ironic; "We believe that our customers would rather get there with a delay than not get there at all," Eshelman said. That will come as news to people in Pittsburgh and the other E-190 destinations where flights were cancelled 5 days after the storm passed.

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando
Too many types flown to list
 
halls120
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RE: JetBlue Leads MCO In Runway Delays

Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:42 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 1):
Well, it's not like EWR and JFK ever get ATC delays, or Washington ARTCC has delays for transiting their airspace to these airports...

I think the paper doesn't understand the context here...

In all the years I've been flying, I've never heard of a delay in taking off being blamed on ATC congestion enroute. Every time we've been sitting on board, waiting for takeoff, the delay has been explained by either 1) a long line of aircraft ahead of us waiting to take off or 2) waiting for a slot to open up at our arrival airport.

When traffic gets congested enroute, what I've usually noticed (listening to ch 9 on UA) what appears to be more common is 10 or 20 degree diversions off course - or speed reductions - to compensate for the congestion.

Maybe there have been instances of Washington ARTCC creating delays, but I'd bet in the case of B6 and EWR and JFK, the problem is the airport, not the airways.

I think the article got the context right. JetBlue flights to EWR and JFK are being held at their departure airports - in this case Orlando - because of problems at EWR and JFK. Just like I've been held at IAD waiting for a slot to open up at ORD.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
OPNLguy
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RE: JetBlue Leads MCO In Runway Delays

Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:57 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 4):
In all the years I've been flying, I've never heard of a delay in taking off being blamed on ATC congestion enroute.

Believe me, they happen, as I'm sure other dispatchers will chime in and confirm.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 4):
Every time we've been sitting on board, waiting for takeoff, the delay has been explained by either 1) a long line of aircraft ahead of us waiting to take off or 2) waiting for a slot to open up at our arrival airport.

If those explanations are coming from the flight crews, they often don't understand enroute delays that well, or prefer to keep the explanations simple. Ask one to explain an AFP delay sometime and see what you get...  Wink
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Jimbo83
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RE: JetBlue Leads MCO In Runway Delays

Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:15 am

It's plausible that many of these delays are due to the fact that NYC airports experience numerous weather phenomenon that cause the FAA to issue Ground Delay Programs. The FAA issues a GDP in order to alleviate stress on the airport from arriving traffic due to poor weather conditions. Airlines routinely have passengers board the aircraft and wait because GDP's can be updated at any moment. By having the passengers on the plane, the aircraft can slide into a slot faster instead of having to reboard, brief the passengers and taxi out in a new slot time. As you can see by the flights being delayed, all to the New York Area, and not just jetBlue flights, it's obvious how this can occur. Eleven flights being delayed by jetBlue out of a considerable number of yearly departures from MCO is no reason to jump to any conclusions.

All information based on Airline Management class lectures provided by Dr. A. Abdleghany, Ph.D., of Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, Daytona Beach, FL.

Jimbo83 and UpstateDave
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
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RE: JetBlue Leads MCO In Runway Delays

Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:50 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 4):
In all the years I've been flying, I've never heard of a delay in taking off being blamed on ATC congestion enroute

This happens all the time to all of the airlines. Sometimes referred to as being in a "penalty box".
 
corey07850
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RE: JetBlue Leads MCO In Runway Delays

Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:57 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 5):

Believe me, they happen, as I'm sure other dispatchers will chime in and confirm.

 checkmark 

I would say that at some point everyday of the week there are delays out of LGA and EWR down to Florida over the WHITE fix, and off of JFK over the WAVEY fix. For those that don't know, WHITE & WAVEY are the primary fixes from the NYC south down to FL and are notorious for enroute volume delays.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: JetBlue Leads MCO In Runway Delays

Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:31 am

There's not a day goes by where JFK and EWR do not have some sort of arrival control, be it a ground delay program, chokepoint, or airspace flow program. Sometimes I see all three implemented, which would make an interesting day. Thank God I don't work JFK.

[Edited 2007-02-26 01:32:09]
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RDUDDJI
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RE: JetBlue Leads MCO In Runway Delays

Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:12 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 4):
In all the years I've been flying, I've never heard of a delay in taking off being blamed on ATC congestion enroute. Every time we've been sitting on board, waiting for takeoff, the delay has been explained by either 1) a long line of aircraft ahead of us waiting to take off or 2) waiting for a slot to open up at our arrival airport.

When traffic gets congested enroute, what I've usually noticed (listening to ch 9 on UA) what appears to be more common is 10 or 20 degree diversions off course - or speed reductions - to compensate for the congestion.

Maybe there have been instances of Washington ARTCC creating delays, but I'd bet in the case of B6 and EWR and JFK, the problem is the airport, not the airways.

I think the article got the context right. JetBlue flights to EWR and JFK are being held at their departure airports - in this case Orlando - because of problems at EWR and JFK. Just like I've been held at IAD waiting for a slot to open up at ORD.

You have a lot to learn my friend. Check out the FAA's OIS page and click on "current restrictions". That will show you all of the current enroute restrictions. Check out:

http://www.fly.faa.gov/current_restr...ictions.jsp?reqFac=ALL&provFac=ALL

It's 8pm on the East Coast, and there are still about 40 different enroute restrictions. All of those lines where you see xxMIT, that's a miles in trail delay used to meter enroute traffic, and I wish I had a dollar for every minute I've waited to take off because we were 30 MIT over MOL/GVE out of one of the DC Metros. Often the restrictions have nothing to do with the airports on the ground...it could be TSTMS somewhere over a Jet airway, sector or center handoffs, or merely condensed traffic over a certain fix. You'll see this in the mid afternoon in busy sectors due to the international arrivals (which are also usually spaced using MIT).
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
Logos
Topic Author
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RE: JetBlue Leads MCO In Runway Delays

Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:15 am

Quoting Corey07850 (Reply 8):
I would say that at some point everyday of the week there are delays out of LGA and EWR down to Florida over the WHITE fix, and off of JFK over the WAVEY fix. For those that don't know, WHITE & WAVEY are the primary fixes from the NYC south down to FL and are notorious for enroute volume delays.

While I agree with this and all the other similar posts, jetBlue is not the only airline operating NYC-Orlando but, as the article points out, they were unique in the length of their runway delays and led all operators out of MCO in runway delays despite accounting for only 6% of the passenger volume. There is a measure of this that lies squarely at their doorstep.

I do hope that they are cleaning up their operational design as per their rhetoric. The PR moves will mean little if not backed by real changes. I should say, too, that I have no brief against jetBlue as I've enjoyed the few flights I've taken with them and would like to be able to take them in the future with some confidence in their operations.

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando
Too many types flown to list
 
rjpieces
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RE: JetBlue Leads MCO In Runway Delays

Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:37 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 9):
be it a ground delay program, chokepoint, or airspace flow program.

Could you explain what a chokepoint is in this context?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
halls120
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RE: JetBlue Leads MCO In Runway Delays

Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:55 am

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 10):
Often the restrictions have nothing to do with the airports on the ground...it could be TSTMS somewhere over a Jet airway, sector or center handoffs, or merely condensed traffic over a certain fix. You'll see this in the mid afternoon in busy sectors due to the international arrivals (which are also usually spaced using MIT).

I think if you look at my post, you will see that I didn't say categorically that ARTCC delays are never a factor. I said that I've never heard a flight crew blame our takeoff delay on ARTCC delays enroute.

Maybe the pilots don't want to get too technical, so they generalize.

Were any of Jet Blue's problems on Valentine's Day caused by ARTCC delays enroute?

As the post below indicates, JetBlue isn't the only carrier operating along the eastern seaboard, yet they seem to have an inordinate share of delay.

Quoting Logos (Reply 11):
While I agree with this and all the other similar posts, jetBlue is not the only airline operating NYC-Orlando but, as the article points out, they were unique in the length of their runway delays and led all operators out of MCO in runway delays despite accounting for only 6% of the passenger volume. There is a measure of this that lies squarely at their doorstep.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Goldenshield
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RE: JetBlue Leads MCO In Runway Delays

Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:59 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 12):
Could you explain what a chokepoint is in this context?

They are modified playbook routes, and act like an STAR, and may or may not involve an actual STAR. Basically, their function is to funnel aircraft coming from a specific direction onto an initial arrival route to ensure that any conflicts in timing are taken care of long before it reaches the congested New York airspace.
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RDUDDJI
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RE: JetBlue Leads MCO In Runway Delays

Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:08 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 13):
I think if you look at my post, you will see that I didn't say categorically that ARTCC delays are never a factor. I said that I've never heard a flight crew blame our takeoff delay on ARTCC delays enroute.

Maybe the pilots don't want to get too technical, so they generalize.

Often pilots don't realize why they are being delayed. Rarely, sometimes their dispatcher doesn't know. Sometimes the controllers explain what's going on, but most of the time they do not. They just tell a plane(s) to pull out of the taxi stream to wait it out. Sometimes they will "shutdown" a fix altogether. I can't tell you how many pilots I've had call and ask us (the air carrier ATC coord) what is going on. Unforunately, they don't publicize fix closures, so it can get ugly. In busy areas like DC, they will not let the PIC or dispatcher re-file over a different fix. Instead the FAA does it when they get around to it (see story below) and it gets really ugly. Everyone gets frustrated, because the crew can't understand why their dispatcher can't get them a new route and the tower is busy doing other stuff...so once you get sitting, it's easy to get left out there.

I was on a flight once from IAD to RDU. We taxiied for 4 hours then ATC finally gave us a re-route which required more fuel than we had. So, we had to return to the gate for more fuel, and then cancel because the crew was over duty time. Luckily there was another flight leaving 20 minutes later. I hopped on that one and we took right off. I also learned there was a flight that left 2 hours after the original flight I was on and only held for 30 minutes. It's definately not an exact science, but stuff like that should never happen. Turns out the WX was only in RDU for about 45 minutes of the delay. The WX was in or near the line of flight for about 2 hours, but nothing that couldn't be vectored around.

Our airspace in this country is well overdue for an overhaul...It's only going to get worse as summer approaches (and with it TSTMS).
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
OPNLguy
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RE: JetBlue Leads MCO In Runway Delays

Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:10 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 13):
As the post below indicates, JetBlue isn't the only carrier operating along the eastern seaboard, yet they seem to have an inordinate share of delay.

I'm not all that familar with their route system, but for the sake of simplicity, let's ASSUME they just fly MCO-JFK and LGA. Those are both delay-prone airports at times, and if those are the only places they fly, their delay "ranking" at MCO is going to be higher than another airline flying those same routes PLUS some other routes MCO-ABC, MCO-XYZ, etc. etc. where there were few (if any) delays that lowered the other airline's "average".

In other words, could it be that their route system (from MCO) isn't sufficiently diversified with destinations that are not delay-prone?
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
halls120
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RE: JetBlue Leads MCO In Runway Delays

Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:14 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 16):
In other words, could it be that their route system (from MCO) isn't sufficiently diversified with destinations that are not delay-prone?

You are probably right. But it does illustrate how the Jet Blue system is held hostage to the weather and or conditions at one airport. If JFK shuts down, they are toast.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
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RE: JetBlue Leads MCO In Runway Delays

Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:18 am

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 15):
Our airspace in this country is well overdue for an overhaul...It's only going to get worse as summer approaches (and with it TSTMS).

Have you seen how many new AFPs will be possible this season?
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4603
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RE: JetBlue Leads MCO In Runway Delays

Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:47 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 4):
In all the years I've been flying, I've never heard of a delay in taking off being blamed on ATC congestion enroute. Every time we've been sitting on board, waiting for takeoff, the delay has been explained by either 1) a long line of aircraft ahead of us waiting to take off or 2) waiting for a slot to open up at our arrival airport.

It happens...athough out of SLC I have yet to experience it, but on flights into the NYC or DCA/IAD/BWI areas, I have encountered it.
 
JAL777
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RE: JetBlue Leads MCO In Runway Delays

Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:57 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 4):
In all the years I've been flying, I've never heard of a delay in taking off being blamed on ATC congestion enroute. Every time we've been sitting on board, waiting for takeoff, the delay has been explained by either 1) a long line of aircraft ahead of us waiting to take off or 2) waiting for a slot to open up at our arrival airport.

Unless you're flying to JFK/ORD/LGA or DCA... there are no slot restrictions at US Airports. You are held on the ground when the arrival rate for your estimated time of arrival exceeds the airports capacity. Obviously, that number varies depending on runways, winds, and weather.
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: JetBlue Leads MCO In Runway Delays

Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:04 pm

Quoting JAL777 (Reply 20):
Unless you're flying to JFK/ORD/LGA or DCA... there are no slot restrictions at US Airports. You are held on the ground when the arrival rate for your estimated time of arrival exceeds the airports capacity. Obviously, that number varies depending on runways, winds, and weather.

I think he's using the term "slot" here in the general context of ATC letting him get airborne, like an EDCT ("wheels-up") time or other restriction on his departing.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
JAL777
Posts: 2453
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 10:13 pm

RE: JetBlue Leads MCO In Runway Delays

Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:07 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 21):
I think he's using the term "slot" here in the general context of ATC letting him get airborne, like an EDCT ("wheels-up") time or other restriction on his departing.

I was commenting on his delay never being blamed on ATC congestion... but that's eactly what his "waiting for a slot" idea is.
 
apodino
Posts: 4073
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RE: JetBlue Leads MCO In Runway Delays

Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:10 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 18):

Have you seen how many new AFPs will be possible this season?

Oh no. At least I can file my flights at 12,000 feet to get around these. (and have done so in the past)


Back to the original topic. I am a little surprised that JetBlue would be bashed in the Sentinel. JetBlue has created lots of jobs in Orlando, and I am not talking about Airport jobs. They have all their training facilities, I believe a maintenance facility, and a crew base in orlando. This alone has been very good for the local economy. If you ask me they should have their SOC there as well, because having it in NY makes it less attractive to potential employees who would be working on that scale in NYC.

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