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ERJ170
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US West Coast-Mexico Vs US East Coast-Caribbean

Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:38 am

Okay.. so here's my question...

It's starting to look like the west coast is going to be completely connected to the Mexican and Hawaiian destinations completely soon. At the rate it is going, it looks like even small towns with 20 people in them will have non-stop flights to Mexico and Hawaii.

So how come the same isn't happening on the East Coast? How come airlines are not offering more non-stop destinations to the Bahamas, Bermuda, Jamaica, etc?

Frontier is doing their [email protected] to connect all the west coast to CUN, Cabo, PVR, or wherever..

Where is the East Coast equivalent? On the east coast, you have to connect through a hub to do that.. sure an East Coast airline could offer weekly flights to the Caribbean much like Frontier is doing?

Just pondering.. someone help me out there..

[Edited 2007-03-02 20:38:26]
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mariner
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RE: US West Coast-Mexico Vs US East Coast-Caribbean

Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:16 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Thread starter):
So how come the same isn't happening on the East Coast? How come airlines are not offering more non-stop destinations to the Bahamas, Bermuda, Jamaica, etc?

I think Spirit is doing some of that?

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SJUSXM
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RE: US West Coast-Mexico Vs US East Coast-Caribbean

Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:27 am

AA's fortress in Miami goes to a TON of Caribbean destinations. Then add San Juan which serves a bunch of east coast cities and then on to EVERYWHERE in the Caribbean. Spirit has some from Fort Lauderale. And Continental is pretty good from EWR, DL from ATL, and US from CLT. A lot of those islands are tough to get premium yield, especially competing for traffic against airlines with connection opporotunities to everywhere in the US.
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MAH4546
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RE: US West Coast-Mexico Vs US East Coast-Caribbea

Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:33 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 1):
I think Spirit is doing some of that?

It is almost all from Ft. Lauderdale. They only have a handful of Caribbean/Bahamas routes that are not from Ft. Lauderdale. Only Orlando-San Juan is daily and year-round. They have recently added Orlando-Nassau, Tampa-San Juan, and Atlantic City-San Juan. None are daily, none are year-round.

Reasons why you don't (and, IMO, will not) see this on the East Coast are, in my opinion:

1) There are more destinations in the Caribbean than in Mexico. When you travel to Mexico, it is the usuaul suspects: Cancun, Cabo, and Puerto Vallarta. Yes, there are dozens of other resorts, but those are the "Big 3". The Caribbean (plus the Bahamas/Bermuda) has a lot more big ones: Punta Cana, San Juan, St. Thomas, Nassau, Aruba, Montego Bay, Bermuda, etc., etc.
2) There is no single strong USA-Mexico hub outside of Houston and to an extent Los Angeles. There are six strong US-Caribbean hubs - Miami, Newark, New York City, Atlanta, Charlotte, and Ft. Lauderdale.
3) Mexico increasingly attracts people nationwide, even Cabo. The Caribbean is still largely an East Coast "thing", with Nassau and Montego Bay probably being the only big exceptions.
4) A significant amount of Caribbean travel is done by flying to Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, or Orlando and getting on a cruise ship.
5) Packaged vacations are more popular to Mexico than the Caribbean. Package vacations fill flights, fast and easily.
6) Mexico is cheap. Outside of Punta Cana and Montego Bay, the Caribbean is not.
7) Airlines like to restrict capacity to the Caribbean. It might be a leisure market, but the yield is excellent to almost every island in the Caribbean. Airlines don't want to dilute that by dumping capacity.

For those reasons, and I'm sure others, you won't be seeing Richmond, Jacksonville, Raleigh, Norfolk, and the like being connected to the Caribbean anytime soon, IMO.

[Edited 2007-03-02 21:35:21]
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RE: US West Coast-Mexico Vs US East Coast-Caribbean

Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:45 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
They have recently added Orlando-Nassau, Tampa-San Juan, and Atlantic City-San Juan. None are daily, none are year-round.

Um - I was looking at the comparison with Frontier's Mexico service:

Quoting ERJ170 (Thread starter):
Frontier is doing their [email protected] to connect all the west coast to CUN, Cabo, PVR, or wherever.

- not all of which is year round and not all of which are daily.

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MAH4546
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RE: US West Coast-Mexico Vs US East Coast-Caribbea

Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:53 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 4):
Um - I was looking at the comparison with Frontier's Mexico service:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 4):

- not all of which is year round and not all of which are daily.

I see that, but I don't see how they compare. Frontier has been extremely aggressive at adding a variety of routes from many cities in Mexico. Most aren't year-round, but they run for significant periods of time (IND-CUN, for example, runs all but about three months). Spirit Airlines connects San Juan with Atlantic City and Tampa for a few months during the summer, which isn't even peak travel to the island, mainly because of cruise ship contracts.
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RE: US West Coast-Mexico Vs US East Coast-Caribbean

Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:58 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 5):
I see that, but I don't see how they compare.

I guess everyone has to start somewhere?

I am in sympathy with the thread starter's quesion, and equally in sympathy with your response ss to why it doesn't happen - or isn't presently happening - but I meant no more that what what I said:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 1):
I think Spirit is doing some of that?

It does look - to me - as if Spirit is doing some of that.

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MAH4546
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RE: US West Coast-Mexico Vs US East Coast-Caribbean

Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:03 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 6):
I guess everyone has to start somewhere?

True, and maybe Spirit will take it further, but I doubt it. They tried some other routes - Orlando-Motego Bay, LaGuardia-Bermuda, Tampa-Cancun, and LaGuardia-Nassau - and they were all pulled before they ever started. They have found very limited success with Caribbean routes outside of Ft. Lauderdale. They are also moving their focus from vacation destinations to business/VFR points such as Port Au Prince, Port of Spain, and Chiclayo. Though with 28 A319s coming into their fleet, it is something they might explore. Not right now, though, as they don't have too many planes to spare.
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rwsea
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RE: US West Coast-Mexico Vs US East Coast-Caribbean

Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:20 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Thread starter):
It's starting to look like the west coast is going to be completely connected to the Mexican and Hawaiian destinations completely soon. At the rate it is going, it looks like even small towns with 20 people in them will have non-stop flights to Mexico and Hawaii.

Another thing to consider when thinking about some of the smaller cities in CA getting service to Mexico is that there is a heavy VFR component, especially from California. While there is certainly such an effect on the East Coast/Caribbean as well, the VFR factor drives some of this service to Mexico from the West Coast (e.g. FAT is a perfect example).
 
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RE: US West Coast-Mexico Vs US East Coast-Caribbean

Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:30 am

Another issue may be the strong two way traffic from the Caribbean/Bahamas/Bermuda to the US, O&D is high on both sides.
 
Viscount724
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RE: US West Coast-Mexico Vs US East Coast-Caribbean

Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:32 am

Mexico is a large country with a population of about 110 million. It has at least 10 cities over 1 million population, and at least 25 over half a million. Only 6 entire countries in the Caribbean have a population over half a million and most are much smaller. And the largest Caribbean country by far in both population and area (almost equal in area to the 25 or so other countries/territories combined) is Cuba which Americans have (with minor exceptions) been prohibited from visiting for almost 50 years.

Mexico has had a free trade agreement with the USA (and Canada) since 1996 which has resulted in many US and multinational companies establishing major facilities in Mexico (e.g. car assembly plants) to benefit from lower labor costs. That means much more business travel between the US and Mexico than to/from the Caribbean which is largely a tourist market and very seasonal.

The huge Mexican ethnic community in the US (about 12% of the US population and a far higher percentage in several states like California and Texas) also means much more VFR (visit friends and relatives) traffic which is less seasonal than tourists.

US-Mexico air service would be even more extensive than it is now if an Open Skies agreement existed rather than the old and very restrictive bilateral that, if not mistaken, stilll restricts nonstop air service in any US-Mexico city pair to two carriers from each country, and requires agreement before any service can be started in new city pairs. The restrictive air bilateral is ironic considering the NAFTA free trade agreement that covers almost everything else.
 
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RE: US West Coast-Mexico Vs US East Coast-Caribbean

Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:37 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):
if not mistaken, stilll restricts nonstop air service in any US-Mexico city pair to two carriers from each country,

It was amended to allow three carriers from each country to/from the coastal resort destinations (CUN, PVR, eg).

I have heard that this amemdment will be extended to the inland cities in October, but I have seen little hard evidence of that.

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MAH4546
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RE: US West Coast-Mexico Vs US East Coast-Caribbea

Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:37 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):
US-Mexico air service would be even more extensive than it is now if an Open Skies agreement existed rather than the old and very restrictive bilateral that, if not mistaken, stilll restricts nonstop air service in any US-Mexico city pair to two carriers from each country, and requires agreement before any service can be started in new city pairs.

I doubt it would change much if US-Mexico was Open Skies. Very few US-Mexico routes demand more than four airlines, and the US and Mexico now allow six airlines (3 American/3 Mexican) on routes to designated tourist destinations (SJD, PVR, ACA, CUN, etc.). Also, the "red tape" airline have to go through to get US-Mexico authority is extremely quick and easy unless you have multiple airlines competing for authority on one route (which was common until very recently, but will probably no longer be common at all). Most importantly, there are absolutely no restrictions on how many weekly flights or how many seats airlines can fly between the US and Mexico, provided that they have route authority.

All that said, while I don't feel that the US-Mexico air treaty is so restrictive as to the point it hampers travel between the two countries, I do feel that the US and Mexico should have Open Skies. The US should actively pursue Open Skies with everyone.
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ERJ170
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RE: US West Coast-Mexico Vs US East Coast-Caribbean

Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:48 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):
That means much more business travel between the US and Mexico than to/from the Caribbean which is largely a tourist market and very seasonal.

Understandable.. but why can't there be more seasonal weekly flights? It's seems very popular in other destinations.. and it seems very popular to Mexico.. but not so to the caribbean...

Quoting SJUSXM (Reply 2):
AA's fortress in Miami goes to a TON of Caribbean destinations. Then add San Juan which serves a bunch of east coast cities and then on to EVERYWHERE in the Caribbean.

yes, but what if you don't want to connect and/or connect on AA? And US only flies to a handful of destinations on the continental US to SJU..

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
The Caribbean (plus the Bahamas/Bermuda) has a lot more big ones: Punta Cana, San Juan, St. Thomas, Nassau, Aruba, Montego Bay, Bermuda, etc., etc.

there's a Big 3 in the Caribbean too: Nassau, Montego Bay, and San Juan... those are truely the BIG 3. But they have access to only about 7-8 US destinations and almost all of them are hubs.. not so on the west coast

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
There is no single strong USA-Mexico hub outside of Houston and to an extent Los Angeles. There are six strong US-Caribbean hubs - Miami, Newark, New York City, Atlanta, Charlotte, and Ft. Lauderdale.

There are 8 hubs on the west coast.. LAX, SFO, SEA, PH.,SLC, PDX, LAS, IAH.. but there are destiantions to MEX from a lot more than those 8!

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
Packaged vacations are more popular to Mexico than the Caribbean. Package vacations fill flights, fast and easily.

Can't they be done on the East coast?

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
Mexico is cheap. Outside of Punta Cana and Montego Bay, the Caribbean is not.

So if airlines were to fly from more markets, they would charge a slightly higher price and be able to cover themselves.. I am still not understanding...

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
Airlines like to restrict capacity to the Caribbean. It might be a leisure market, but the yield is excellent to almost every island in the Caribbean. Airlines don't want to dilute that by dumping capacity.

So some airline that comes in to offer flights from more destinations from teh East Coast to the Caribbean could virtually make a killing due to the cooperative monopoly the airlines are holding?

Quoting Mariner (Reply 4):
- not all of which is year round and not all of which are daily.

why can't that be done on the east coast?

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 8):
While there is certainly such an effect on the East Coast/Caribbean as well, the VFR factor drives some of this service to Mexico from the West Coast (e.g. FAT is a perfect example).

In that case, there should be more East Coast-Mexico traffic because the East Coast is CERTAINLY filling UP!

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):
Mexico is a large country with a population of about 110 million. It has at least 10 cities over 1 million population, and at least 25 over half a million.

But we are speaking more leisure destinations.. And the large number doesn't mean that a large amount of traffic travels.. or rather travel by air... but a lot of East Coast people would travel to the Caribbean if non-stops and packages were available. I know they can travel now by connecting, but it seems on the west coast, they are getting more non-stop flights than the east coast to caribbean.. I'm just trying to grasp a GOOD reason why.. Is it really the strangle hold of the airlines on the East Coast to force traffic through a hub?

Pardon me if I'm being just.. slow.. but I am waiting to see if there is an answer that will satisfy my thirst..
Aiming High and going far..
 
mah584jr
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RE: US West Coast-Mexico Vs US East Coast-Caribbean

Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:53 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
6) Mexico is cheap. Outside of Punta Cana and Montego Bay, the Caribbean is not.

This is absolutely the biggest reason why there is more demand to Mexico than to the Caribbean. Doesn't really make a difference where you go; a beach is a beach, but it's all about the money.
 
FATFlyer
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RE: US West Coast-Mexico Vs US East Coast-Caribbean

Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:58 am

Don't forget Allegiant's prospectus back in December:

Quote:
We aim to become the premier travel brand for leisure travelers in small cities. We have identified at least 52 additional small cities in the U.S. and Canada where we could potentially offer our low fare nonstop service to Las Vegas, Orlando or Tampa/St. Petersburg. We also believe there are several other world-class leisure destinations we could serve that share many of the same characteristics as Las Vegas, Orlando and Tampa/St. Petersburg. These potential markets include several popular vacation destinations in the U.S., Mexico and the Caribbean.

When, where, and from which cities would Allegiant fly to the Caribbean? I have no idea. But it is a region they have in mind for several years from now.
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MAH4546
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RE: US West Coast-Mexico Vs US East Coast-Caribbean

Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:48 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 13):
there's a Big 3 in the Caribbean too: Nassau, Montego Bay, and San Juan... those are truely the BIG 3. But they have access to only about 7-8 US destinations and almost all of them are hubs.. not so on the west coast

There is the "big 3" as in those are the three most popular destinations. However, they do not dominate like Cancun, Puerto Vallarta, and San Jose del Cabos dominate US-Mexico leisure traffic.

Also San Juan has extensive non-stop service all throughout the United States, including just about every large city east of the Mississippi.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 13):
There are 8 hubs on the west coast.. LAX, SFO, SEA, PH.,SLC, PDX, LAS, IAH.. but there are destiantions to MEX from a lot more than those 8!

Those are not US-Mexico hubs. There is no single, large US-Mexico hub except Houston.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 13):

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
Packaged vacations are more popular to Mexico than the Caribbean. Package vacations fill flights, fast and easily.

Can't they be done on the East coast?

Not really. The Caribbean is expensive. If you can afford to go to the Caribbean, you don't buy a packaged vacation. The major exceptions are Punta Cana and Montego Bay (and to a lesser extent San Juan and Aruba). Punta Cana has, literally, dozens upon dozens of charter flights from various East Coast cities everyday. Nassau does as well. And that's how it will likely remain.
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juventus
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RE: US West Coast-Mexico Vs US East Coast-Caribbean

Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:30 am

AA out of MIA, DL out of ATL, and US from CLT have the Caribbean pretty well covered.
 
Indy
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RE: US West Coast-Mexico Vs US East Coast-Caribbean

Sun Mar 04, 2007 1:46 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 5):
IND-CUN, for example, runs all but about three months

Actually I believe that F9's service is year round. One day a week all year with 2 to 3 days during the busy travel season. NW has it seasonal from sometime in early Jan until mid to late August.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
MAH4546
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RE: US West Coast-Mexico Vs US East Coast-Caribbean

Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:18 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 18):

Actually I believe that F9's service is year round. One day a week all year with 2 to 3 days during the busy travel season. NW has it seasonal from sometime in early Jan until mid to late August.

It is almost year-round. It does not operate during most of August through early October.
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SJUSXM
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RE: US West Coast-Mexico Vs US East Coast-Caribbean

Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:17 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 13):
there's a Big 3 in the Caribbean too: Nassau, Montego Bay, and San Juan... those are truely the BIG 3. But they have access to only about 7-8 US destinations and almost all of them are hubs.. not so on the west coast

well SJU has many more than that-AA goes to BDL, BOS, JFK, EWR, PHL, IAD, MIA, FLL, MCO, TPA, DFW, ORD, LAX and more than i cant remember off the top of my head. PLUS US to CLT and PHL, DL to ATL and JFK. CO, to EWR. UA to IAD and ORD.
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pzurita1
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RE: US West Coast-Mexico Vs US East Coast-Caribbean

Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:30 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):
Those are not US-Mexico hubs. There is no single, large US-Mexico hub except Houston.

LAX moves much more pax to Mexico than IAH to an also large number of cities.

LAX sent 1,233,236 pax in the first 9 months of 2006 to 26 Mexican cities.
IAH sent 1,089,762 pax in the same period to 30 Mexican cities.

I understand you might refer to the ability of IAH to serve as a connecting point to the rest of the US. LAX is much more and O & D traffic, however it also allows endless connecting posibilities to all Western Coast, which is the subjet here.

Also, perhaps not as large as IAH, DFW is also a true hub when it comes to US-MEX traffic, and in no way should be put away in this discussion. From January to Sept 2006, it sent 766,402 pax to 16 Mexican cities.

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