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Viscount724
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777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:24 pm

Interesting excerpts below from AC CEO comments in their 2006 annual report, issued before recent announcement of new YVR-SYD nonstop service. Link to complete report here:
http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/investor/documents/2006_ar.pdf


Beginning in March, we will begin replacing our 10 A340-300s and some of our oldest Boeing 767s with a combination of Boeing 777-300ER and 777-200LR twin-engine aircraft. The 777s have a lower cost per available seat-mile than both of our four-engine A340 models – up to 26 per cent lower – and can fly further with a full payload. Two engines versus four mean better fuel efficiency and less maintenance expense. When substituting a 349-seat 777-300ER for an A340-300 we gain 63 seats and several tonnes of freight capacity. Our 777s will have the same Executive First suite with a lie-flat bed being installed throughout the widebody fleet. Every passenger in the economy cabin will have the same personal in-seat video system being installed fleet-wide – and we intend to charge for premium content. The 777-300ER is destined for our busiest, most profitable markets like London, Frankfurt and Tokyo where we can sell the extra seats and cargo space and charge top dollar for the suites. The 270-seat 777-200LR will take over very long distance routes like Toronto-Hong Kong and do it at a 12 per cent lower seat-mile cost. And the best is yet to come: the Boeing 787s being delivered from 2010 on will be 30 per cent more cost-effective to operate than the 218-seat 767s they replace.


Within North America, passengers are giving us positive feedback on our new 93-seat Embraer E-190s with their spacious cabin and extra legroom. In situations where 93 seats are enough, the E-190s carry the same revenue but cost 18 per cent less to operate than our next largest aircraft. With 27 more 190s coming this year and in 2008 for a total of 45, the E-190 fleet is allowing us to strengthen the network and replace some A319s and A320s as part of fleet renewal and rightsizing capacity to our needs to improve our operating margins. Our approach to cost reduction also sets us apart from most airlines. Our preference is to focus on achieving a holistic understanding of total expenditures – how much it costs to offer services like telephone reservations, meals, checked baggage and carrying pets or sporting equipment and to recover those costs by altering the service or charging more for it.


While it pursues greater profitability, Air Canada is firmly committed to long-standing conservative values that define what this airline is about. There is no comprising the safety and security of our passengers and employees – this remains our top priority. Air Canada has over $2 billion in cash and, as of mid-February, a 44 per cent fuel hedge for 2007. We’re firm believers in doing more of what is already highly profitable with plans this summer to operate up to 15 non-stops a day to London-Heathrow and 12 to Asia, and using bigger aircraft like the 777-300ER on some flights.
 
airbazar
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:00 pm

It's nothing new but keep in mind that he has to sell his decision for dumping fairly new A340's and buying shiny new 777's, and all of this it's just estimates because they haven't even started operating the aircraft. So while it should be no surprise that in general the 777 is a more efficient aircraft than the A340 I'll take his commnets with a grain of salt. For starters he's comparing a 773 to an A343 when the direct competitor to the 773 is the A346, and he says nothing concrete about the performance numbers of direct comparison between the 772LR and the A345.
 
accargo
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:41 pm

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 1):
It's nothing new but keep in mind that he has to sell his decision for dumping fairly new A340's and buying shiny new 777's, and all of this it's just estimates because they haven't even started operating the aircraft. So while it should be no surprise that in general the 777 is a more efficient aircraft than the A340 I'll take his commnets with a grain of salt. For starters he's comparing a 773 to an A343 when the direct competitor to the 773 is the A346, and he says nothing concrete about the performance numbers of direct comparison between the 772LR and the A345.

For starters he's comparing the 773 which AC is getting with the 343 which AC currently has. The performance numbers for the 772LR will be a huge inprovement over the 345's we currently have even if they come in below what Boeing estimates for the acft type.
 
sebring
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:24 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 1):
It's nothing new but keep in mind that he has to sell his decision for dumping fairly new A340's and buying shiny new 777's, and all of this it's just estimates because they haven't even started operating the aircraft. So while it should be no surprise that in general the 777 is a more efficient aircraft than the A340 I'll take his commnets with a grain of salt. For starters he's comparing a 773 to an A343 when the direct competitor to the 773 is the A346, and he says nothing concrete about the performance numbers of direct comparison between the 772LR and the A345.

The points Brewer is making relate to how AC is going to improve its own margins, not whether AC with a 777 has an advantage over a competitor. AC flies these routes already. He's saying, with these planes vs the 340s, we will be more profitable than we are today. AC competes against a large range of aircraft on the routes impacted by the fleet upgrading. AC will face 747s, 777-200ERs, 767-300s, A340-300s and A340-600s. Each airline configures their aircraft differently and has a different corporate cost structure. The comparisons Brewer makes are to AC's costs with the 777 vs AC's costs with Airbus family aircraft. In fact, the gist of his message is how AC is planning to improve both revenues and costs, which it can do with fleet modernization, because it is also ushering in a significantly better product in both the Y and J cabins. Finally, I would point out that AC's 340s are mainly in the 10-year-old range, not old but no longer young. And with exception of the A340-500s, they are all leased and as I understand it, AC is getting a premium to its lease price on sub-letting these aircraft.
 
Adria
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:59 am

Well the A343 has a lower total fuel consumption than the 772ER but it is the size difference that was an important factor for the sales of the 777. AF for example is (based on the CEO comments) using the A343 on thin long haul routes and the 772ER on more dense.

But yes comparing the A343 and the 773ER doesn't make sense.....
 
11Bravo
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 1:07 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 1):
and all of this it's just estimates because they haven't even started operating the aircraft.

The performance differences between the various A340s and B777s are a lot more than estimates. Both aircraft have been in service for quite some time and there are extensive data available for quantitative comparison.
 
ikramerica
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 1:12 am

Wow. Talk about respinning the comments of someone who knows more than you because you don't like what he's saying.

The A343 is obviously the better plane, that's why it's selling so well to this day, and further, you just can't compare a 77W to the A343, even though that's exactly what AC is doing so I guess you can do it in the real world...  Wink
 
CF188A
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 1:21 am

The following can almost be declared common sense, however I have not made a post in this type of field for a while so if anyone disagrees or has something to add, please feel free to toss it at me 

I am a firm believer that Air Canada wants to acquire a fleet of aircraft which will essentially bring them to the top of their competition and pave way for a very promising and diminutive future. You cannot really beat the service Air Canada will be offering in the next 5 years. I cannot think of any other airline that has such an efficient fleet of aircraft which virtually connects every location demanded. Air Canada has NOT limited itself . By keeping the 340s because of ego problems, would be a stupid idea and would cost them money...4 engines as opposed to 2, as well the seat/cost/ mlg to destinations such as Hong Kong, Tokyo, Sydney, etc. If I remember correctly the 345 was just a temporary Toronto-Hong Kong fix, until the 777s performance results in other airlines could be analyzed. Air Canada always seemed to be fond of the 777LR hence their decision to delay their previous interests until the 777LR made it's demo flight.

Airlines are businesses. How can they generate the best possible revenue with the least amount of maintenance, fuel, etc costs..? In order to save money sometimes you need to spend money. After the deliveries of all 777/787/E190/E170/CR7, and retirement of the 767/340 (in the future 319/320/321 and 330) I am confident we will not see Air Canada acquire many new aircraft for a possible 20+ years. The only family I could see being switched up, is the Q200/Q300 for possible Q400S in AC Jazz. By purchasing the 777s, the E170/90, 787S, etc, Air Canada is being pro-active, and not reactive. The success quote in the aviation industry in my opinion. As the years press on, travel and maintenance costs are increasing, fuel costs are increasing, more people are traveling ...the "Competitive Aviation Industry".. I believe will shut many airlines down in the next 5-10 years because of rising costs. By purchasing aircraft such as the 777/787/E170/E190/CRJ7, Air Canada is winning in maintenance, fuel, and simply human relations. People are ENJOYING their travels. The majority of people will LOVE these aircraft as the passenger is kept in mind. FedEx seems to want to get rid of their DC-10/MD-10/MD-11/727 fleet hence their decision to purchase 777s and acquire many 757s. They are trying to as well, "get ahead" of their game in the cargo/ freight industry. If you compare all this to airlines such as Northwest, American ETC, what could possibly happen? Randomly over 10 airlines want orders of 100+ 737 aircraft ASAP? It just simply will not happen. I think it is time to begin perking up for the future. I love looking at DC-9s, MD-80s, A300s, etc, however realistically , we wont be seeing anything flying if airlines do not begin planning for long term changes/ effects. The future in the aviation industry is going to be one hell of an exciting trip.    

[Edited 2007-03-03 17:27:52]
 
slz396
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 1:22 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
Talk about respinning the comments of someone who knows more than you because you don't like what he's saying.

Well he is clearly comparing an A343 to a 773ER, so there is no re-spinning there, just a correct observation.

His absolute figures are correct, but their relative meaning isn't.

Quoting Sebring (Reply 3):
The points Brewer is making relate to how AC is going to improve its own margins, not whether AC with a 777 has an advantage over a competitor.

Indeed, that's the only realative meaning you can give to them:

Quoting Viscount724 (Thread starter):
When substituting a 349-seat 777-300ER for an A340-300 we gain 63 seats and several tonnes of freight capacity.



Quoting Viscount724 (Thread starter):
The Boeing 787s being delivered from 2010 on will be 30 per cent more cost-effective to operate than the 218-seat 767s they replace.
 
B707Stu
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:11 am

From a passenger point of view the 777 is far superior to the A340. I've ridden both, a lot. I find the A340-300 cramped and uncomfortable. Though the A340-600 is an improvement (love the cameras) it still is not as nice a ride as the 777. This is a purely subjective opinion I know but what else do I have but my own experience.

I think AC is doing the right thing, not only from an economics point-of-view but from a passenger service point-of-view as well.
 
flyorski
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:32 am

AC made a decision to purchase the boeing aircraft, and now they are convincing the shareholders that it was the right decision. A rather normal approach from an airline.
 
sebring
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:43 am

Quoting Adria (Reply 4):
But yes comparing the A343 and the 773ER doesn't make sense.....

Each aircraft at Air Canada has a seat mile cost. So yes, you can compare any two aircraft in the fleet if you want.
 
flydreamliner
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:01 am

So much whining because the real world does not coincide with what some people would like to believe?

What do you mean 'can't compare 773ER to A343'? He is replacing A343 with 773ER, it is a completely valid comparison.

Airlines don't always shop aircraft we on A.net would considder to be true peers to one another, they might shop 787 against A380, is that a fair comparison? It is if that is what airlines are deciding between.

For what AC needs, 773 is vastly more efficient, that's what the airline, who knows more than we do, said, and that's why they sold a relatively new fleet of jets and replaced them all. Airlines are businesses to make profit, they aren't some government wing trying for prestige. The 777s were brought in because they are more efficient and more profitable for the airline, like it or not.
 
beechnut
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:17 am

The 777 can indeed be compared to the A340 as in fact the 777 is replacing the A340-300 and A340-500.

While the aircraft is larger, it is in fact solving two problems at the same time: increasing capacity and lowering seat-mile costs. AC has had some international capacity issues for some time now and definitely needs a larger aircraft on key Asian routes as well as a couple of European routes (particularly YYZ-LHR and YYZ-FRA).

The 777 will do the job perfectly, in addition to being a more capable aicraft (range, cargo capacity, etc). Nice upgrade for AC, which will be nicely rounded out when the 787s finally start coming into service to improve on an already very versatile aircraft, the 767-300ER

Beech
 
buckieboy
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:22 am

Quoting CF188A (Reply 7):
if anyone disagrees or has something to add, please feel free to toss it at me



Quoting CF188A (Reply 7):
You cannot really beat the service Air Canada will be offering in the next 5 years.

I would be surprised if it matches the service offered by CX, SQ, OZ or KE today..

Quoting CF188A (Reply 7):
I cannot think of any other airline that has such an efficient fleet of aircraft which virtually connects every location demanded.

I believe that EK and SQ have been proactively leading the way here.

Just my 1 RMB

Cheers

BB
 
antskip
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:56 am

Quoting B707Stu (Reply 10):
From a passenger point of view the 777 is far superior to the A340.

That choice is personal. I prefer the more intimate feel of the Airbus over the much bigger cabin of the B777 - but then I prefer the B767 over the B747.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 13):
What do you mean 'can't compare 773ER to A343'? He is replacing A343 with 773ER, it is a completely valid comparison.

You can compare them, but they are hugely different in capacity - the same as the gap between a B767 and a B747-300. As for economics, whatever the better per-seat costs of the bigger plane, the B777 is not always better economically over the A343. A full A343 is preferable to a half-empty B777. Obviously, when an airline wants more capacity, the move up to the B777 makes a lot of sense. As another thread discussed, EK is doing just that with their DXB-JFK route. But the A343/5's have their niche - just as the B767 still does, and the B787 will.
 
Adria
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:21 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 13):
For what AC needs, 773 is vastly more efficient, that's what the airline, who knows more than we do, said, and that's why they sold a relatively new fleet of jets and replaced them all. Airlines are businesses to make profit, they aren't some government wing trying for prestige. The 777s were brought in because they are more efficient and more profitable for the airline, like it or not.

Well if you choose to believe everything someone says than ok but as someone already said the comments on A and B from a CEO that just made the decision to change the fleet are not to be taken 100% true (unless you decide to live in a dream world).....

Quoting Sebring (Reply 12):
Each aircraft at Air Canada has a seat mile cost. So yes, you can compare any two aircraft in the fleet if you want.

True but he isn't comparing them like the thread starter and most of a.netters on the forum (A vs. B) but like two separate aircraft.....it's not a big deal to say the 773ER has better economics than the A343 because it's the same like someone would say the A321 beats the 736 (but would be funny to read the comments then)
 
threepoint
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:50 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Thread starter):
Every passenger in the economy cabin will have the same personal in-seat video system being installed fleet-wide – and we intend to charge for premium content.

So what is deemed 'premium content'? Are we to assume that perhaps after an initial no-cost period, movies will be available, but at a cost?

Quoting CF188A (Reply 7):
You cannot really beat the service Air Canada will be offering in the next 5 years.

Sure you can. Many airlines do today already (see reply 15). Now if you want to reduce the cost structure as Brewer states, then some of that service is either going to be compromised, eliminated or only available at extra cost.
Flying longhaul routes with AVOD is great, but if much of AC's content costs money to view once on board, you can bet the SQ, QF-type carriers who currently offer everything for free will garner a lot more Y attention, many of whom select their carriers based on price, timetable and on-board entertainment..
 
accargo
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:55 am

Quoting Adria (Reply 17):
Well if you choose to believe everything someone says than ok but as someone already said the comments on A and B from a CEO that just made the decision to change the fleet are not to be taken 100% true (unless you decide to live in a dream world).....

I choose to believe someone that runs an airline over the "experts" that post here.

Everyone seems to get bent out of shape about this 340 vs 777 crap. Brewer was addressing AC investors not a bunch of acft engineers or airliners.net members. He was stating that with the introduction of the 773 and 772 to AC's fleet it will offer cost savings to AC that the 340's that AC operates do not offer. It wasn't a technical discussion as some here want to paint it.
 
CF188A
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:58 am

Quoting Buckieboy (Reply 15):
I believe that EK and SQ have been proactively leading the way here.

lets do this in a simple manner. State their light / medium aircraft types
 
BoomBoom
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:24 am

Quoting Flyorski (Reply 11):
AC made a decision to purchase the boeing aircraft, and now they are convincing the shareholders that it was the right decision. A rather normal approach from an airline.

You make it sound like they decided to buy the 777 first, and then justified it after the fact, rather than the other way around.

Quoting Adria (Reply 17):
t's not a big deal to say the 773ER has better economics than the A343 because it's the same like someone would say the A321 beats the 736

Or a full A343 beats a half empty 777.
 
mah584jr
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:42 am

I would strongly caution anyone who thinks this statement is more than a marketing tool in this scenario. Brewer's only objective is to increase his shareholder's wealth, that's it! If the investors feel like AC is doing the right thing, they will respond with their own money.
 
ba319-131
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:48 am

Quoting Antskip (Reply 16):
That choice is personal. I prefer the more intimate feel of the Airbus over the much bigger cabin of the B777 - but then I prefer the B767 over the B747.

- Agreed, much prefer the 330/340 & 767 over the 777 & 747
 
awthompson
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:04 am

Quoting B707Stu (Reply 10):
From a passenger point of view the 777 is far superior to the A340. I've ridden both, a lot. I find the A340-300 cramped and uncomfortable. Though the A340-600 is an improvement (love the cameras) it still is not as nice a ride as the 777. This is a purely subjective opinion I know but what else do I have but my own experience.

I personally prefer the Airbus A330/340 for comfort than the Bo.777 or 747. I fly sometimes from London to Hong Kong with Cathay Pacific where both the A340 and the Bo.747 operate and where possible I often pick those flights operated by the Airbus. My main reason is the 2-4-2 layout of Y class on the Airbus as opposed to the 3-4-3 on the Boeing types. Since I usually like a window seat, it is nice to be only one seat from the aisle when you need to use the lavatory or just go for a walk to stretch your legs. When I ride a 747 or 777 I am confined to sit at the rear where the body narrows in to get only two seats between the aisle and the window. Also I find the Airbus A330 and A340 have quieter cabins than the Boeing 747 and 777 particularly behind the wing. However when flying business class which is always forward of the wing, neither of these preferences really matter and I guess there is little difference for a passenger between Airbus and Boeing. The differences then are only in the detail which is airline/operator dependent and not type dependent. Does anybody else share this view?
 
PolymerPlane
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:39 am

Quoting Adria (Reply 17):
it's not a big deal to say the 773ER has better economics than the A343 because it's the same like someone would say the A321 beats the 736

hmm but there is a difference in your comparison here. if we take the CEO's comment, the 26% CASM advantage is for a plane that carries only 22% more seats. That means, you can fit 773ER with as much seat as A343 and still have a lower CASM. On top of that, you still have a huge advantage on cargo revenue payload.

You probably can't say that A321 with 736 capacity will have CASM lower than 736 can you...

Cheers,
PP
 
antskip
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:27 am

Quoting Awthompson (Reply 24):
My main reason is the 2-4-2 layout of Y class on the Airbus as opposed to the 3-4-3 on the Boeing types.

I recently had a clear option to fly from MEL to the EK hub DXB and onto the UK by either B773 or A340 (both connecting with the same flight DXB-LHR ). Having flown on both the EK versions of both types more than a dozen times, I was aware of what each option offered. The clincher was not the different route (the B773 takes an extra stop at SIN - the B773 leaves MEL two hours earlier) to the hub, but the A345. The reason being the 2-4-2 layout. I am flying 2/3rds the way to England and back with my wife without sharing our direct personal space with a stranger. That's a big advantage, IMHO. I would choose the A340 even if it were going via SIN and the B777 were going direct to DXB. I know there are some twin-seats near the back of the B777, but then that would mean inferior stability during turbulence. I love the roar of the huge B773 engines during take-off; it is an awesome monster. But the heart of the matter is that the A345 is, in today's international fleets, a medium-sized plane, and the B777 is little different in cabin size to the B747-300 jumbos. One of the reasons the B787 is going to be loved by the passengers as much as the airlines is that it is another example of a medium-sized B767-sized, long-distance aircraft. It will again give the intimacy and features of a comparatively small cabin; except that it will be top-of-the range cost-per-seat efficient as well. All other things being equal (e.g. the same airline!), I would rather fly now on a A345 over a B773 for the same fundamental reason as I will prefer to fly in the future on a B787 over a B773 or a A380.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:52 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 3):

The points Brewer is making relate to how AC is going to improve its own margins, not whether AC with a 777 has an advantage over a competitor.

 checkmark 
I remember when Northwest replaced their DC-10s with A330s. There was an article stating they were saving 40% in fuel costs over the old equipment. It's a perfectly legitimate point to make, regardless of whether they're comparing an old three-holer with a modern twin.
 
billreid
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:01 pm

Quoting BA319-131 (Reply 23):
Agreed, much prefer the 330/340 & 767 over the 777 & 747

Again riff-raff speaking.
I fly over 150,000 miles a yuear and sit tin the FF lounges. I don not knoe a single paying customer that prefers the B767 over the B777. Additionally, the larger tube on the B777 gives a more roomy feel especially in Business class.

I think many A-netters simply aren't paying customers. Dollar value the B777 exceeds the A-340 ten to one if you survey the customers. The A430 simply is not a better plane for those paying the bill.

I CHALLENGE ANYONE TO PROVE THE A340 IS A BETTER CONSUMER PRODUCT!!
Hogwash!
 
BHMNONREV
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:31 pm

Quoting BillReid (Reply 28):
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
The A343 is obviously the better plane

You must be joking or drinking koolaid??

Bill, maybe you did not detect the sarcasm which was oozing from his comment. And I'm amazed, a 777 vs 340 thread and ConcordeBoy has not piped in yet...
 
kdm
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:07 pm

Quoting Awthompson (Reply 24):
I personally prefer the Airbus A330/340 for comfort than the Bo.777 or 747

I to fly a lot, approx 150k per year mostly long haul (i.e greater 10 hours) but with a good amount of regional travel around Asia.

Although I really do like the 777 I will always take a A340 for long haul if I have the option. Main reason is comfort and quietness. I have however only flown the A340 on Virgin and SQ so maybe I am spoilt having only flown nicely configured A340's.
 
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zeke
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:20 pm

Quoting BillReid (Reply 29):

Again riff-raff speaking.
I fly over 150,000 miles a yuear and sit tin the FF lounges. I don not knoe a single paying customer that prefers the B767 over the B777. Additionally, the larger tube on the B777 gives a more roomy feel especially in Business class.

I think many A-netters simply aren't paying customers. Dollar value the B777 exceeds the A-340 ten to one if you survey the customers. The A430 simply is not a better plane for those paying the bill.

I CHALLENGE ANYONE TO PROVE THE A340 IS A BETTER CONSUMER PRODUCT!!
Hogwash!

Hi Bill,

Seems you maybe having a few drinks with that coherent post.

As for proving which is a better consumer product, you would need to compare apples with apples, if an AC customer in Y was asked about flying in a cabin that has not had an upgrade for years, no IFE in seat, just the one big screen, and individual in seat IFE systems on demand, I know what the answer will be. Same goes for an airline that has a new interior in a 340 and compares that to a 10 year old 777.

I am not aware of a single aircraft type where pax do not complain about something, yes even on the 777, there are well known seats to avoid.

As for comparing the big wide boeing cabin to the 340, maybe you should read what people say when flying from SIN-EWR, one stop on the 777/744 or non-stop on the 345. Apparently people actually like a quieter cabin with less disturbance so they can rest.

Please could you point me to the "Dollar value the B777 exceeds the A-340 ten to one" survey you base your comments on, that is if it actually exists outside your imagination ?

BTW have you also surveyed the AC passengers to see how they feel about staying in the likes of Anchorage, Shemya, Adak, Magadan, Khabarovsh, Petropavlovsk, Chitose, Cold Bay, King Salmon, Elmendorf, or Fairbanks, for what could be days in the aircraft due to a a enroute diversion ?

I also take it you will refuse to fly in a 787, as that is too much of a narrow body for you, you would prefer to fly in a 15 yr old 777 ?

 sarcastic 
 
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Ncfc99
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:26 pm

Quoting BillReid (Reply 29):
Again riff-raff speaking.
I fly over 150,000 miles a yuear and sit tin the FF lounges. I don not knoe a single paying customer that prefers the B767 over the B777. Additionally, the larger tube on the B777 gives a more roomy feel especially in Business class.

I think many A-netters simply aren't paying customers. Dollar value the B777 exceeds the A-340 ten to one if you survey the customers. The A430 simply is not a better plane for those paying the bill.

I CHALLENGE ANYONE TO PROVE THE A340 IS A BETTER CONSUMER PRODUCT!!
Hogwash!

It dosen't matter how many miles you fly per yeaur(??????) or how many times you sit tin(?????) FF lounges. You now knoe(??????) of one paying customer that prefers the 767 and 340 cabin over the 777. From a business point the 777 is the best aircraft availiable, but given a choice for the same priced ticket, I will always book on a 767 or 340. So your statement that a A430(??????) is not the better plane for those paying is incorrect. It is only your opinion. I cannot prove it other than offer you my opinion.
 
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PM
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:54 pm

In interesting (if largely predictable) thread.

Stand back and see the big picture. It seems hard to deny that the 777-200ER is a more attractive option (= "better"?) for most airlines than the A340-300. Similarly, sales of the 777-300ER and A340-600 speak for themselves. Even in their niche the 777-200LR has already outsold the A340-500 and can be confidently expected to sell many more. So, if you must see it in terms of a competition, the 777 "wins" pretty comfrtably. And, if I've read the opening thread correctly, the point being made is that the 777 in its various guises and comparing like with like will earn more money for AC (and its shareholders) than the A340. Can't really argue with that.

Does this mean that the A340-300, -500 or -600 are "bad" aeroplanes or that no airline can make money operating them? Hardly.

Does it mean that passengers will prefer flying on 777s compered to A340s? Not according to at least some of the posts above.

So the 777 family is more successful and no doubt deserves to be. But the various A340s still seem to be making money for their owners (didn't Lufthansa just post spectacular results?) and, as a paying customer myself (pace the irascible BillReid above) I'll add my vote to those who would rather fly 2-4-2 than 3-4-3 in economy and who find the A340 quieter than a 777.

If I had to buy and pay to operate a dozen planes I daresay I'd opt for the 777 too. But once I've bought my ticket I'd rather sit in an A340. And as for which is the better looking...
 
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lightsaber
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 4:35 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 35):
And, if I've read the opening thread correctly, the point being made is that the 777 in its various guises and comparing like with like will earn more money for AC (and its shareholders) than the A340. Can't really argue with that.

Well said. That is what matters. What airplane makes the most money. Sometimes its a contested battle (737 vs. A320). Sometimes... it isn't (787 vs. world).

As PM noted, the various A340's still make airlines money. Just not as much money as a 777 and thus the sales differential. Don't get me wrong, I like the A345/346, but after working a project to re-engine the airframes... I understand the cost disadvantage they run vs. the 777.  Sad

For AC, the choice is clear.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 33):

Please could you point me to the "Dollar value the B777 exceeds the A-340 ten to one" survey you base your comments on, that is if it actually exists outside your imagination ?

 rotfl  Ok, it certainly isn't 10 to 1.

But I'll be curious if a 772LR starts to operate on routes that the A345 currently operates to see how long until the route is conceded. Like it or not, at some point economics rule.

Lightsaber
 
aircanada014
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 4:42 pm

I have no preference to which aircraft I fly on although my favourite are the widebodies over narrowbodies. I like the feel of the airplane being bigger than the narrowbodies thats my only preference. As for comforts I'm looking forward to trying out the B777s. We all know that most of the flight is not 100% full right? well if I'm lucky to get the window seat there's a chance I may have all seats to myself if there's no other passengers sharing my row. Whether its 2x4x2 or 3x3x3 I would be happy to occupy those other seats not being used. Yes I do understand that there's not always a chance to have the place all to myself. Whenever I travel I'm always glad to be on an airplane of any type.
 
allstarflyer
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:17 pm

Quoting BillReid (Reply 29):
I CHALLENGE ANYONE TO PROVE THE A340 IS A BETTER CONSUMER PRODUCT!!
Hogwash!

Well, based on several posts above, I'd say it's a matter of personal preference. I fly only when I can on my days off, and I've experienced every current Boeing line in US domestic service, plus the A319/320. I look forward to someday getting on some widebody Airbus so I can draw some more personal comparisons/conclusions, as well as just having the experience. And I'll say this - I prefer Airbus narrowbody a/c in Y class to either the 737 or 757. Is that a valid comparison? I'm not sure, but I just like the Airbus better in this case. I almost even prefer F class in the UA 767 worldwide to that of F class in either the 777 or 747 (in large part due to the pleasant experiences I've had in 767 F class). But that's just my personal experience.

Business is the bottom line for AC, but personal experience can't be waved off by any numbers you can throw in favor of the 777. It's the passengers personal experience to which the airlines cater. So personal experience by this passenger and others mean how the airlines do said business.

-R
 
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zeke
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:30 pm

Quoting Accargo (Reply 19):
Brewer was addressing AC investors not a bunch of acft engineers or airliners.net members. He was stating that with the introduction of the 773 and 772 to AC's fleet it will offer cost savings to AC that the 340's that AC operates do not offer.

If another 911 event happened and he had to park his shiny new 777s on the fence, paying about US$900k/month for the dry lease, and he got rid of the 340s which were paid for and would cost next to nothing to park, will the investors be happy.

Aviation is boom and bust, how long has AC been out of bankruptcy ?

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 25):
That means, you can fit 773ER with as much seat as A343 and still have a lower CASM.

I think it would be fair to say the CX 343 have a lower CASM than the SQ 773ERs, both around 275-280 seats, however the CX 773Ers will have a lower CASM than the CX 343 as they will have more seats, the 343 costs about the same to run an hour as a 772ER.

Quoting PM (Reply 35):
But the various A340s still seem to be making money for their owners (didn't Lufthansa just post spectacular results?) and, as a paying customer myself (pace the irascible BillReid above) I'll add my vote to those who would rather fly 2-4-2 than 3-4-3 in economy and who find the A340 quieter than a 777.

CX will have an interesting release of numbers on Wednesday as well.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 36):
But I'll be curious if a 772LR starts to operate on routes that the A345 currently operates to see how long until the route is conceded. Like it or not, at some point economics rule.

The glaring aspect of that comment, and the comment of the CEO, it the actual cost of the replacement is not taking into account. A comparison is being made with DOC and revenue, the finance cost of the aircraft will be in the range of US$2000-2500 / hr, which is why a 343 will actually give a lower cost of actual operation. Yes a new 777 will have a lower CASM over a new 340 if fitted with more seats, and if one ignores the actual cost of dry leasing the airframe.

No matter what the 773ER economics are like, a dry leased 773ER cannot make an additional 25-30k on a one way YVR-HKG flight over a fully paid for 343.
 
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BlueSky1976
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:18 pm

Quoting BillReid (Reply 29):
I CHALLENGE ANYONE TO PROVE THE A340 IS A BETTER CONSUMER PRODUCT!!

Simple:
I'd rather sit in 18" 2-4-2 A340 seat than in so-called "standard" 17" 3-4-3 777 or 747. A340 wins hands down, based on 32" seat pitch. That being said, 18" 3-3-3 777 seat is just as comfy as the one in A340, if one doesn't mind extra "excuse me". I flew SK A330, A340 and BA 777 and every trip was just as enjoyable - regardless of the aircraft. For me it's not about the aircraft, but more about on-board service the carrier offers.

Oh and BTW:
1) Don't yell at people - it's impolite,
2) I there is a nice little link on the top of the window You're writing on that says "Check Spelling". I challenge You to use it from time to time.

[Edited 2007-03-04 10:18:58]
 
Rheinbote
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:31 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 39):
If another 911 event happened and he had to park his shiny new 777s on the fence, paying about US$900k/month for the dry lease, and he got rid of the 340s which were paid for and would cost next to nothing to park, will the investors be happy.

If a comet strikes your fleet, the damage is proportional to the value of the fleet, right? So I guess in that case you're better off with a flock of scrap value airliners.  sarcastic 

Quoting Zeke (Reply 39):
No matter what the 773ER economics are like, a dry leased 773ER cannot make an additional 25-30k on a one way YVR-HKG flight over a fully paid for 343.

Right, when operated as a cab, a fully paid for Corolla will generate more profit than a dry leased stretch limo.  sarcastic 

Looks like you have to resort to quite far-fetched comparisons to make the 343 look competitive  Wink

Quoting Zeke (Reply 39):
The glaring aspect of that comment, and the comment of the CEO, it the actual cost of the replacement is not taking into account. A comparison is being made with DOC and revenue, the finance cost of the aircraft will be in the range of US$2000-2500 / hr, which is why a 343 will actually give a lower cost of actual operation.

C'mon, you're familiar with the terms 'investment' and 'amortization', aren't you? Not to mention 'total operating cost'.
 
CJAContinental
Posts: 343
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:38 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Thread starter):
When substituting a 349-seat 777-300ER for an A340-300 we gain 63 seats and several tonnes of freight capacity

They say their going to throw the 73ER for the sake of extra capacity on routes like LHR, and do it 15 times a day at peak! I find that hard to believe since LHR will then charge landing fees as they please, as the flights would be ridiculously frequent. If they're doing this for the sake of capacity flight economics, as opposed to maintenance being the important factor, then why not the 747-8I also.
 
Leskova
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:13 pm

Aside from all the, as others have mentioned, extremely predictable squabbling over which planes are best, and people - as usual - confusing personal opinions with factual proof, this is actually something I found interesting:

Quoting Viscount724 (Thread starter):
Every passenger in the economy cabin will have the same personal in-seat video system being installed fleet-wide – and we intend to charge for premium content.

Rather annoying, that... charging for premium content? What, in this context, would constitute "premium content"? Movies that aren't 10 years old? TV shows that aren't the 9500th re-run of some sitcom no-one wants to see any longer? News that isn't 'yesterday's news'? Or what?
 
accargo
Posts: 576
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:21 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 39):
Quoting Accargo (Reply 19):
Brewer was addressing AC investors not a bunch of acft engineers or airliners.net members. He was stating that with the introduction of the 773 and 772 to AC's fleet it will offer cost savings to AC that the 340's that AC operates do not offer.

If another 911 event happened and he had to park his shiny new 777s on the fence, paying about US$900k/month for the dry lease, and he got rid of the 340s which were paid for and would cost next to nothing to park, will the investors be happy.

Aviation is boom and bust, how long has AC been out of bankruptcy ?

If another 9/11 happened the investors of most airlines are not going to be happy.IMO the 777 would not be the ones parked as they are going to be more efficient to operate than the 340's would be. Frequencies can be cut to fill up the larger 777 and still provide service. But there are all kinds of "disaster" scenarios that you can come up with that will impact airlines and investors no matter what type of acft AC operates.

The majority of the 340's are not paid for, they are on leases.

This thread (predictibly) has turned into yet another pi$$*** match about A vs B that seem to preoccupy a lot of folks hereabouts. Any excuse to turn a thread into this is taken at whatever opportunity. Taking comments by someone out of contect to score a few points in this endless battle is par for the course.

 banghead 
 
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zeke
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:55 pm

Quoting Accargo (Reply 45):
IMO the 777 would not be the ones parked as they are going to be more efficient to operate than the 340's would be.

I would keep the aircraft that we owned, and offload the leased aircraft to another operator.

Quoting Accargo (Reply 45):
The majority of the 340's are not paid for, they are on leases.

I only know of 2 of the 333/343s are leased from ILFC, if you have other information, please share.
 
PolymerPlane
Posts: 832
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:12 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 46):
I would keep the aircraft that we owned, and offload the leased aircraft to another operator.

Investing in an airplane is not like renting or buying a car. Regardless to whether the aircraft is paid for or not, the company still take a cost of using the airplane. be it lease fees or the depreciation costs. The only difference is that you pay upfront for a purchased airplane, instead of yearly. On the book it still has very similar effects, and that what counts in public company, unless your plane has already been fully ammortized.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 39):
I think it would be fair to say the CX 343 have a lower CASM than the SQ 773ERs, both around 275-280 seats, however the CX 773Ers will have a lower CASM than the CX 343 as they will have more seats, the 343 costs about the same to run an hour as a 772ER.

Comparing CX and SQ is apple and oranges. AC's CEO said that AC 343 has higher trip cost than AC's 773ER. I think he knows the cost structure of his company.

Cheers,
PP
 
Rj111
Posts: 3007
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:01 am

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 25):
That means, you can fit 773ER with as much seat as A343 and still have a lower CASM. On top of that, you still have a huge advantage on cargo revenue payload.

I highly doubt that is true in reality.

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 21):
You make it sound like they decided to buy the 777 first, and then justified it after the fact, rather than the other way around.

I think Milton had decided to buy the 777 a long, long time ago.
 
threepoint
Posts: 1294
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RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:20 am

Quoting BillReid (Reply 29):


Again riff-raff speaking.
I fly over 150,000 miles a yuear and sit tin the FF lounges. I think many A-netters simply aren't paying customers.

I wonder - reading your 'unemployed' comment in your profile, are you a paying customer?

Quoting Leskova (Reply 44):
Rather annoying, that... charging for premium content? What, in this context, would constitute "premium content"? Movies that aren't 10 years old? TV shows that aren't the 9500th re-run of some sitcom no-one wants to see any longer? News that isn't 'yesterday's news'? Or what?

See reply 18. No answers yet.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 46):
I would keep the aircraft that we owned, and offload the leased aircraft to another operator.

...another operator that would presumably be affected by the same disaster scenario as you and likely unable or unwilling to assume the additional costs of your now-unwanted plane.
 
trex8
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Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:26 am

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 47):
AC's CEO said that AC 343 has higher trip cost than AC's 773ER.

has implies its happening already, their 773s aren't in service yet so while its unlikley he is off base, it hasn't happened yet, has it?
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:26 am

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 49):
See reply 18. No answers yet.

Damn... and I thought I had read the thread...  Wink
 
sebring
Posts: 1331
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:08 am

RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:41 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 39):
If another 911 event happened and he had to park his shiny new 777s on the fence, paying about US$900k/month for the dry lease, and he got rid of the 340s which were paid for and would cost next to nothing to park, will the investors be happy.Aviation is boom and bust, how long has AC been out of bankruptcy ?

Air Canada's A340-300s are all leased. Its two A340-500s are owned, but financed. If planes are parked, lease payments still have to be made and interest on debt still paid. No aircraft at Air Canada mainline is fully paid that I know of. As a matter of fact, AC is sub-leasing some of its 343s at a premium. What AC found in its analysis of what Boeing and Airbus had to offer is that the 777-300ER and to a lesser extent the 777-200LR perform better of AC's route structure. AC will use most of its 777-300ERs on routes where they will be able to carry a full payload. On some of the longer circuits, the 773 will continue to carry a full payload whereas the 343 is taking a payload penalty. The combination of higher cost and payload penalty was decisive for Air Canada in choosing the 773. For example, on YVR-SYD, both the 773 and 772LR will carry a full payload in both directions, whereas the 343 was incapable of making the distance nonstop in both directions. Southbound, the 343 had to go through HNL, a distance deviation (more fuel) and an inconvenience for customers. Northbound, it could just barely do it nonstop but with a large payload penalty that made the option uneconomic. The 773ER will fly nonstop in both directions, carry more passengers and perhaps crucially a lot more freight. The nonstop on new aircraft should help AC market the route, which, in turn, should help AC fill the plane and take full advantage of the lower CASM it offers. I, for one, living in Toronto, find this flight more appealing that having to pre-clear US customs and fly via LAX, or to go on AC's current YVR-HNL-SYD routing on a 767. With more than hourly AC flights between Toronto and Vancouver, I can get just the right connection, never having to worry about a too-tight connection or having to sit around for five hours in YVR.

I also believe that properly marketed to each country, Canada-Australia tourism and business should grow at a faster rate than a lot of other bilateral markets. The only thing holding it back in Canada has been a perceptions that Australia is so, so far away, and the further one lives from Vancouver, the further Australia feels. Anything that makes the trip time sound competitive with routings to mainland Asia can only help Canadians think of Australia. The two countries have a common language, similar purchasing power with their currencies and many similar tastes despite their cultural differences. I've been to Oz but only saw the east coast, never got to the interior or South Australia or Perth. So I want to go again. And some of the Australians I have met here have had the same experience - they can only see a fraction of what's worth experiencing, a
 
aircanada014
Posts: 1224
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:24 pm

RE: 777 Vs. A340 - AC CEO Comments

Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:49 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 46):
I only know of 2 of the 333/343s are leased from ILFC, if you have other information, please share.

Hey Zeke go to this link and its on page 14 and you will find your answers there regarding lease and own by AC.

http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/investor/documents/2006_ar.pdf

Owned by AC

A340-500 2 a/c

B767-300 1 a/c

B767-200 11 a/c

EMB190 18 a/c

EMB175 15 a/c


Capital Lease

A340-300 8 a/c

A330-300 8 a/c

B767-300 4 a/c

A319-100 17 a/c


Consolidating Under AcG-15

B767-300 6 a/c

A321-200 5 a/c

A319-100 17 a/c


Operating Lease

A340-300 2 a/c

B767-300 22 a/c

A321-200 5 a/c

A320-200 47 a/c

A319-100 11 a/c

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