BOS (Logan) Wants Japan Flights, Article Says

sq452 · Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:51 am

After Daisuke Matsuzaka was signed by the Sox, there were a few threads about whether this justified and was the tipping point for Japan-BOS non-stop flights.

Well, apparently the good folks at Massport were on the same brain wavelength, and as the Herald reports today, as they are definitely in the hunt now for non-stop flights to Japan.

Here is the article:
http://business.bostonherald.com/businessNews/view.bg?articleid=187577

Here's what I think happens. ANA frees up a 777-200 if American or United doesnt take the route, and runs a couple of "seasonal" (baseball that is) flights to Boston. Eventually the service will go daily.

Its got to happen sooner or later.

Just my

Hope it starts sometime soon (but realistically my hopes are not high until that 787 comes into service.

[Edited 2007-03-10 18:57:54]

Boston92 · Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:38 am

It will end up being a 2-4x weekly thing.

sq452 · Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:43 am

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 1):
It will end up being a 2-4x weekly thing.

Better than what we have now, nothing...i'll take whatever we can get.

I seriously do hope its ANA. They have that int'l configured 777-200 that they just moved off the SFO route since they just started the 777-300ER to that station.

MAH4546 · Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:43 am

It is extremely realistic to expect BOS-NRT service when airlines start taking delivery of the 787. It won't be for another 2-3 years that, IMO, it will happen. Though wiht the 787 coming along, I think Boston, Philadelphia, Denver, Miami, San Diego, and Phoenix will finally see that Narita flight...

sq452 · Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:48 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
It is extremely realistic to expect BOS-NRT service when airlines start taking delivery of the 787. It won't be for another 2-3 years that, IMO, it will happen. Though wiht the 787 coming along, I think Boston, Philadelphia, Denver, Miami, San Diego, and Phoenix will finally see that Narita flight...

Yes but the influx of Japanese tourists will be starting in April when Dice-K mania hits Fenway bouncy

...

2-3 years, we can't wait that long!!!

airbazar · Sun Mar 11, 2007 10:32 pm

I find it interesting that 115 people currently fly between Boston and Japan, daily. That number is higher than I expected. Add to that passengers that could transfer at NRT, to other parts of Asia and a BOS-NRT non-stop starts to make a lot of sense. Too bad the A332 doesn't have the legs for it or NW would be perfectly positioned to offer this service. I guess, short of the occasional charter or seasonal service, we'll just have to wait a few years for the 787.

L.1011 · Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:55 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 5):
I find it interesting that 115 people currently fly between Boston and Japan, daily. That number is higher than I expected.

I'm curious where you can get that sort of information? I've been looking for it for a while.

centrair · Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:31 am

Didn't JL and KE look at operating to BOS from NRT and ICN respectively a few years ago? KE seems to be looking for new destination all the time. I feel that this is a 787-8 route but could be used with a 772. NH just ordered 4 more 773ERs and I bet these will go on routes currently operated by 744s or places that could see an upgrade from a 772ER. That opens the possibility of NRT-BOS. NH and JL have first dibs on new NRT slots and can could operate the flight if they decrease frequency and add capacity on some routes and add new routes.

It will all come down to aircraft availability and slots into NRT. To me that means the possible contenders are NW, UA, JL and NH. AA is another possibility as long as they change the destination from one NRT slot. What did San Jose-NRT become?

NH is the best bet for this flight and I bet it is higher on the list than say NGO-SEA (Ichiro is still popular and is Aichi's hometown boy...not to mention we have high-tech and aviation industries) which has been rumored now for 3+ years.

Good thing the Twins or Yankees didn't pursue Matsuzaka eh?

Zone1 · Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:51 am

It's doubtful that UA or AA will serve NRT from BOS. AA has done nothing but cut flights out of BOS recently, and with UA's cuts out of JFK, I doubt they will be starting up any new non-hub international flying any time soon. UA has the slots, but it's doubtful they could make this route work with a 777. NW might give it a go when they start taking delivery of their 787s. They also have a good position in E and have the support needed to fly international out of BOS.

sq452 · Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:55 pm

Quoting L.1011 (Reply 6):
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 5):I find it interesting that 115 people currently fly between Boston and Japan, daily. That number is higher than I expected.

I'm curious where you can get that sort of information? I've been looking for it for a while.

It's in the article.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 7):
NH is the best bet for this flight and I bet it is higher on the list than say NGO-SEA (Ichiro is still popular and is Aichi's hometown boy...not to mention we have high-tech and aviation industries) which has been rumored now for 3+ years.

I guess so too, it makes perfect sense to me. With the 115 people leaving logan for Japan on a daily basis, you can almost imagine that that number will grow with the appeal of non-stop flights. Additionally throw in the connections from Japan to elsewhere in Asia people could make (Singapore, Seoul, Beijing, Shanghai, etc.), this flight would do very well, especially with cargo.

Maybe SQ will route a flight through there Wink

They have been looking at BOS, and they have 5th freedom rights out of Japan...maaakes sense...*looks around*

sq452 · Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:57 pm

I just thought of this: Im sure PWM, MHT, PVD, and BDL have people leaving on a daily basis for Japan (albeit not a lot, probably just a handful in each airport). I imagine those people could also make the jump to Boston if the non-stop flight came about. New England is so underserved to Asia its not even funny.

RP TPA · Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:06 pm

Don't forget that Air Canada flies daily from YYZ-NRT. I believe almost all of the previously mentioned northeastern cities have morning flights to YYZ which connect to the NRT flight.

sq452 · Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:08 pm

Quoting RP TPA (Reply 11):
Don't forget that Air Canada flies daily from YYZ-NRT. I believe almost all of the previously mentioned northeastern cities have morning flights to YYZ which connect to the NRT flight.

Yes true.

UA also has a flight (or had) a flight that went straight through BOS>ORD>NRT>ICN.

Morning flight, always full of Koreans and Japanese nationals. The demand is there...i hope something will be in place before the end of the year.

chrisnh · Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:03 am

The 787 has to be the most anticipated new platform launch in a long time. I won't say 'ever,' because that starts a never-ending debate. But the 787 holds the pseudo-promise of opening up all sorts of nonstop city-pairs (like the one we're discussing here). Dice-K pitches every fifth day, so that alone won't warrant a nonstop. If he were an every-day player, sure, but he isn't. Maybe a carrier would debut the market with a long-legged 777 and then, when the 787 comes along, they will really solidify their market presence. If I were an Asian carrier I would capitalize NOW, while none of the U.S. flag carriers are in a position to.

Chris in H

bagoldex · Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:24 am

Would JAL or ANA adding on a leg from JFK a few times a week work out at all?

Carpethead · Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:49 am

If BOS (or specifically Massport) can subsidize the NRT-BOS leg and beg the NAA for slots at NRT, sure NH & JL might think of serving the route. But somehow even if slots were ample at NRT, NRT-BOS would be too marginal for even an 787.
Of course, I can be wrong and I will eat my shorts the day that route is launched!

Quoting BAGoldEx (Reply 14):
Would JAL or ANA adding on a leg from JFK a few times a week work out at all?

Not in a million years.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 7):
NH and JL have first dibs on new NRT slots

They compete with everybody else that wants slots at NRT. It just happens foreign carriers are slightly handicapped with preferred time slots.
NH & JL, as home bases, can be flexible with scheduling and establish flights wherever there are openings.

WN230 · Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:30 pm

Couldn't DL start a BOS-NRT route? Wouldn't this be a good route for them, or would it be easier for DL to just start one from JFK?

WN230

MAH4546 · Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:37 pm

Quoting WN230 (Reply 16):
Couldn't DL start a BOS-NRT route? Wouldn't this be a good route for them, or would it be easier for DL to just start one from JFK?

Delta is in no position to start a Boston-Tokyo route. They flew JFK-NRT in 2001, for a very short time, and dropped it after 9/11. They gave up the route authority, which American Airlines now has.

JAL is probably the best airline to operate BOS-NRT, given oneWorld's strong pressence in Boston. If not, then ANA.

American Airlines announced Boston-Tokyo in 1999, but it never started.

Carpethead · Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:49 pm

Just to add, no US carrier has the right aircraft nor the aircraft availability to serve this market.
NW could (a very big if) with the 788.
CO wouldn't be on this route due to the proximity to its EWR hub.

chrisnh · Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:58 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 15):
If BOS (or specifically Massport) can subsidize the NRT-BOS leg and beg the NAA for slots at NRT

Somehow I don't see Massport as being in the 'subsidizing' business. Have they done this before (e.g. Iberia)?

If not, they'd open up a can of worms if they helped some foreign flag carrier with financial inducements, if that's what you mean by 'subsidizing.'

Chris in NH

airbazar · Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:40 pm

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 19):
Somehow I don't see Massport as being in the 'subsidizing' business. Have they done this before (e.g. Iberia)?

It's normal procedure to attract new business. I know the last time TP served BOS they received incentives.
There are always incentives attached to the deal when it comes to attracting a new airline or a new destination. I don't see why other airlines would complain about it 'cause most of them understand the business and were or still are, the beneficiaries of such incentives at different places throughout the World. The incentives do not necessarily come from the airport authority. They're usualy financed by the local tourism board and business associations.

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 15):
But somehow even if slots were ample at NRT, NRT-BOS would be too marginal for even an 787.

I think BOS-NRT is one of those potentially good routes that hasn't been discovered yet. We may not have the volume but we certainly have the yields. As has been mentioned above, currently 115 passengers fly daily between BOS and Japan. That doesn't include people who fly from other New England airports such as MHT, PVD, and BDL. Most of those are likely to be business 'cause I just don't see 115 tousists flying from Boston to Japan in the middle of February. In addition, the introduction of the non-stop combined with the recent exposure in Japan, of Boston/NE as a tourist destination, has the potential for increasing the amount of traffic on the route. And last but not least, NRT could be a very good alternative for passengers from the Boston area to change flight to other Asian destinations. Put all of those together, and the number of passengers could easily double. Add cargo revenue to it and this route starts to look very likely with a 772 and most definitely with a 788.

chrisnh · Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:51 pm

I hope that when the 787 does start production Boeing doesn't start backpedaling on the plane's performance metrics to the point where these 'long-and-thin' routes stop being attractive. It seems that many new platform aircraft start with marvelous targets that the airlines 'Oooooh' and 'Ahhhh' at, only to go the other way once specific design elements get locked down. Let's hope the 787 is as attractive two years from now as it is now.

Chris in NH

ConcordeBoy · Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:27 pm

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 5):
Too bad the A332 doesn't have the legs for it or NW would be perfectly positioned to offer this service.

"the A332" does indeed have the legs for it---- NW's A332s, on the other hand........

Quoting Centrair (Reply 7):
KE seems to be looking for new destination all the time

Granted, their fleet choice was rather limited then, but keep in mind that KE served BOS with their own metal and decided to pull out against going nonstop.

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 21):
It seems that many new platform aircraft start with marvelous targets that the airlines 'Oooooh' and 'Ahhhh' at, only to go the other way once specific design elements get locked down.

...pray tell; what, IYO, was the last pax model Boeing did this with-- so far as promised design and performance were concerned?

chrisnh · Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:07 am

I'm not picking on Boeing, but is it true that they've always been spot-on with the performance of their planes when compared with the advance projections? If that's the case, I'm impressed. I'm speaking about downstream, when the weights creep up and performance benchmarks go down.

Chris in NH

PSU.DTW.SCE · Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:12 am

The biggest issue I see with all this is that everyone (aiports) wants flights to NRT, Asia, glamorous international destinations, regardless of suitable, sustained, profitable demand; regardless of the airline's limited, capacity & performance suited aircraft; regardless of limited slots & airport facilities at many of these destinations.

Just look at the thread titles on this board:
BOS wants NRT
DEN wants NRT/Asia
SLC wants CDG, LGW, NRT/Asia
CLE wants CDG/Europe

AA wants DFW-PEK
DL wants ATL-PEK
US wants PHL-PEK
NW wants DTW-PEK
CO wants EWR-PEK

I could go on and on here about the wish lists of airports and airlines, often which don't always see eye to eye.
Its easy for the airports to start these pushes for service such as this, whether it will happen is another matter. With all of these airports wanting service, especially a place like NRT that simply doesn't have the slots available to start service to all of these places (BOS,DEN,SAN,SLC). That isn't going to change anytime soon. Plus, if all these were to happen, isn't that going to flood the market to the point where there is more supply than demand. I know the market is growing, but, in recent years, the only major market to get new service to NRT is PDX. Everything else had been from existing markets. Time will tell if these wishlists are fulfilled.

ConcordeBoy · Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:48 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 24):
I know the market is growing, but, in recent years, the only major market to get new service to NRT is PDX

...and even then, nothing really "new" about it; they were just able to resume the service they long had but with another carrier.

b52murph · Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:14 pm

Quoting SQ452 (Thread starter):
Well, apparently the good folks at Massport were on the same brain wavelength, and as the Herald reports today, as they are definitely in the hunt now for non-stop flights to Japan.

Hah...Massport have a good idea? That's a new one... what about the basics first: a) Approve international arrivals at Terminals A, B, C. Didn't DL consider a setup for exactly this with the remodling of A, but Massport shut it down? b) Close the old/short 33R/15L (2500ft IIRC), and fill in some land (Osaka style) to build a new runway, allowing parallel ops on the 33s.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
Quoting WN230 (Reply 16):
Couldn't DL start a BOS-NRT route? Wouldn't this be a good route for them, or would it be easier for DL to just start one from JFK?

Delta is in no position to start a Boston-Tokyo route. They flew JFK-NRT in 2001, for a very short time, and dropped it after 9/11. They gave up the route authority, which American Airlines now has.

This is really too bad....DL would be perfect for the route with their rebuilt Eastern terminal (A). Give them a few more months to get out of BK and then we'll see. Probably no capacity for it now...although....would the 764ER make it?

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 24):
AA wants DFW-PEK
DL wants ATL-PEK
US wants PHL-PEK
NW wants DTW-PEK
CO wants EWR-PEK

US to PEK? rotfl

And I suppose they'd do this with their old 762s and a "A320XER" Smile

navairjax · Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:28 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
JAL is probably the best airline to operate BOS-NRT, given oneWorld's strong pressence in Boston.

I would think that NH would fit better than JL since Star has the largest network presence there.

MAH4546 · Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:47 pm

Quoting Navairjax (Reply 27):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
JAL is probably the best airline to operate BOS-NRT, given oneWorld's strong pressence in Boston.

I would think that NH would fit better than JL since Star has the largest network presence there.

No single alliance has a dominant network pressence. Star, oneWorld, and SkyTeam are all pretty equal, but oneWorld's network is the most extensive, IIRC.

navairjax · Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:02 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 28):
No single alliance has a dominant network pressence. Star, oneWorld, and SkyTeam are all pretty equal, but oneWorld's network is the most extensive, IIRC.

While I don't doubt that all three are close, I do believe that US serves the most destinations from BOS giving Star a slight advantage.

ConcordeBoy · Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:39 pm

Quoting B52murph (Reply 26):
would the 764ER make it?

no

sq452 · Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:25 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 24):
The biggest issue I see with all this is that everyone (aiports) wants flights to NRT, Asia, glamorous international destinations, regardless of suitable, sustained, profitable demand; regardless of the airline's limited, capacity & performance suited aircraft; regardless of limited slots & airport facilities at many of these destinations.

But BOS is the largest market in the US that does not have ANY service to Asia. All those other cities you listed of the airlines that want China flights have service from that airport to at least one asian destination.

BOS has nothing...

airbazar · Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:34 pm

Quoting B52murph (Reply 26):
Hah...Massport have a good idea? That's a new one... what about the basics first: a) Approve international arrivals at Terminals A, B, C. Didn't DL consider a setup for exactly this with the remodling of A, but Massport shut it down? b) Close the old/short 33R/15L (2500ft IIRC), and fill in some land (Osaka style) to build a new runway, allowing parallel ops on the 33s.

Do you even know BOS? Who exactly is going to pay to build, staff, and support all these FIS facilities that you're proposing? And where exactly would you find the space to build them? And all for what? An additional 2, 3 flights per day? Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. Build a new runway on Boston Harbor? Do you happen to know that Boston Harbor is now a National Park? Yeah, like that's ever going to happen. Geez, the things people spit out some times...

MAH4546 · Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:02 pm

Quoting SQ452 (Reply 31):

But BOS is the largest market in the US that does not have ANY service to Asia. All those other cities you listed of the airlines that want China flights have service from that airport to at least one asian destination.

Philadelphia is, actually. Boston will have Asia service soon enough, probably not by 2009, but it will happen.

sq452 · Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:52 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 33):
Philadelphia is, actually. Boston will have Asia service soon enough, probably not by 2009, but it will happen.

Well, if you are right then, then maybe somebody got it wrong, because, in the article the massport CEO quotes it as follows: “Since then, the traffic has come back, and Boston remains the largest U.S. market without nonstop service to Narita (International Airport).” -Thomas Kinton Jr., CEO Massport.

I have also seen statistics/quotes that BOS is the largest without service to Asia. BUT, while PHL airport might be busier airport without asia service, officials in beantown look at the New England area population (Mass., NH, and Maine) in addition to Boston, and with Philly being so close to Newark, thats harder to meassure. So I think its more of a population gauge, rather than how much busier philly is compared to logan.

MAH4546 · Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:41 am

Quoting SQ452 (Reply 34):

Well, if you are right then, then maybe somebody got it wrong, because, in the article the massport CEO quotes it as follows: “Since then, the traffic has come back, and Boston remains the largest U.S. market without nonstop service to Narita (International Airport).” -Thomas Kinton Jr., CEO Massport.

Well, it will depend on what rankings they were using, and they were most likely using the one that looks most favourable upon them, rather than the CSA rankings, which are the defacto standard in the US:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_metropolitan_area

Or UN "urban area" rankings, which are the defacto standard on a global scale:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_urban_areas_of_the_United_States

Philadelphia is larger on both counts.

[Edited 2007-03-15 18:43:28]

airbazar · Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:37 am

Market does not refer to Urban Area. It usually refers to the airport's catchement area and PHL loses there because so much of it's catchement area overlaps with, and is diluted by, airports like EWR and even BWI, whereas BOS doesn't have any significant International gateway within a 300mi radius. For example, that Wikipedia link above does not include either CT or southern Maine which are part of BOS's international catchement area.

vega · Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:24 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 36):
Market does not refer to Urban Area. It usually refers to the airport's catchement area and PHL loses there because so much of it's catchement area overlaps with, and is diluted by, airports like EWR and even BWI, whereas BOS doesn't have any significant International gateway within a 300mi radius. For example, that Wikipedia link above does not include either CT or southern Maine which are part of BOS's international catchement area.

You are incorrect. PHL's airport CATCHMENT Area is 11 counties and 8 Million. Since WN started service to PHL, the outflow to other airports (e.g., BWI) is minimal. The 11 counties are far enough from NYC that it is unreasonable to expect all but very few passengers would travel there for a domestic flight. The outflow to EWR and JFK to anywhere but Asia and South America is minimal since all other areas are already adequately served from PHL. PHL's total International O&D for 2006 was 4.2 Million. BOS's was almost identical. These include passengers who connect at another international hub (e.g., JFK). Also note that BOS's catchment area includes PVD and MHT. PHL is not diluted by any catchment area commercial airport. If you can locate the figure for the BOS Airport catchment area, please post it; otherwise it would have to be assumed that the author of the article was incorrect, assuming they even intended to mean "catchment area", rather than MSA or CSA.

[Edited 2007-03-15 22:01:14]

highflyer9790 · Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:56 am

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 1):
It will end up being a 2-4x weekly thing.

Here's another scenerio:

Come summer (baseball) it will be 744 service 4x weekly, dropping to a 777 2-3x weekly in winter. even if Dice-K didnt come or was traded, BOS still needs asian service. if anyone serves BOS from Japan/China, it will be ANA. the only other one i can see is SIA. BOS can expand int'l..the problem is massport and limited gate space at Terminal E...

MAH4546 · Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:03 am

Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 38):
Quoting Boston92 (Reply 1):
It will end up being a 2-4x weekly thing.

checkmark

Here's another scenerio:

Absolutely not viable. This route would need business traffic to survive, and would need to be at least 5x weekly to get a healthy flow of it.

I can't believe people are thinking that the route will be viable because of a baseball player! JAL can fly charters for that.

ConcordeBoy · Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:21 am

Quoting Vega (Reply 37):
PHL's total International O&D for 2006 was 4.2 Million.

Curious, what was your source for that figure?

airbazar · Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:48 am

Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 38):
BOS can expand int'l..the problem is massport and limited gate space at Terminal E...

If you look at the time Asian flights operate at JFK/EWR/ORD, gate space will not be an issue at Terminal E.
A lot of flights to/from Asia arrive/depart around mid day. Most of them actually operate at mid morning. Terminal E is really only busy for a few hours in the afternoon, 2pm-6pm.

highflyer9790 · Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:13 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 39):
Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 38):
Quoting Boston92 (Reply 1):
It will end up being a 2-4x weekly thing.

checkmark

Here's another scenerio:

Absolutely not viable. This route would need business traffic to survive, and would need to be at least 5x weekly to get a healthy flow of it.

I can't believe people are thinking that the route will be viable because of a baseball player! JAL can fly charters for that.

Im not saying its because of a baseball player...im saying that it wont be daily, like i said flight will increase in summer though. no one person could cause that sarcastic

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 41):
If you look at the time Asian flights operate at JFK/EWR/ORD, gate space will not be an issue at Terminal E.
A lot of flights to/from Asia arrive/depart around mid day. Most of them actually operate at mid morning. Terminal E is really only busy for a few hours in the afternoon, 2pm-6pm.

very true... checkmark

highflyer9790 · Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:17 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 41):
Terminal E is really only busy for a few hours in the afternoon, 2pm-6pm.

id also say that terminal E is busy from 4pm to 9:30pm, only because there are a lot of flight departing and arriving at that time...to name a few: VS, BA, ICE, AIRLINGUS, NW, AZ, LH, AF, LX, SATA, AA (arrivals), and come summer, flyGlobespan, IB, and finnair...

b52murph · Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:31 pm

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 32):
Quoting B52murph (Reply 26):
Hah...Massport have a good idea? That's a new one... what about the basics first: a) Approve international arrivals at Terminals A, B, C. Didn't DL consider a setup for exactly this with the remodling of A, but Massport shut it down? b) Close the old/short 33R/15L (2500ft IIRC), and fill in some land (Osaka style) to build a new runway, allowing parallel ops on the 33s.

Do you even know BOS? Who exactly is going to pay to build, staff, and support all these FIS facilities that you're proposing? And where exactly would you find the space to build them? And all for what? An additional 2, 3 flights per day? Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. Build a new runway on Boston Harbor? Do you happen to know that Boston Harbor is now a National Park? Yeah, like that's ever going to happen. Geez, the things people spit out some times...

I certainly do know BOS, having flown out of there over 30 times between the late-70s (growing up) and 2000/2001 (when MHT really started getting good service). Last time 2004--rude cop yelled at me because I stopped in the loading lane to allow a UA Baggage Rep to load my bag which had come on a later flight. Born in the area, lived in southern N.H. until '96, family still there. MassPort has been at the trailing end of aviation advancement for years (ok, politics)--if they weren't, BED would have become a viable reliever airport a long time ago. I'm being facetous about the new runway, of course--the environmentalists won't (and probably shouldn't from a green perspective) let it happen. My point is, though, that there's always a tradeoff. As far as FIS (thank you for the acronym, I couldn't remember it) in Terminal A, IIRC, DL offered to install the facilities as part of the upgrade, rather than asking the state to pay. When BOS is up to the same standard as some of the other world-class airports in this country (DEN, DFW, even the new DTW), I'll go back to considering them in addition to MHT. Until then...

b52murph

sq452 · Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:12 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 39):
Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 38):Quoting Boston92 (Reply 1):
It will end up being a 2-4x weekly thing.

checkmark

Here's another scenerio:
Absolutely not viable. This route would need business traffic to survive, and would need to be at least 5x weekly to get a healthy flow of it.

I can't believe people are thinking that the route will be viable because of a baseball player! JAL can fly charters for that.

Wow, im beginning to think you don't like Boston or don't want this route to be successful if/when it launches! This route wouldnt be because of Dice-K, but Dice-K may have been the tipping point as Logan has been trying to get Asia service back for a while ever since Korean Air pulled out in the 90's. Also, there is a lot of business traffic in and out of Logan, maybe you don't know how big the tech and biotech sector in Mass. is.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 36):
Market does not refer to Urban Area. It usually refers to the airport's catchement area and PHL loses there because so much of it's catchement area overlaps with, and is diluted by, airports like EWR and even BWI, whereas BOS doesn't have any significant International gateway within a 300mi radius. For example, that Wikipedia link above does not include either CT or southern Maine which are part of BOS's international catchement area.

Airbazar, you hit the nail on the head. So much of PHL's urban area is diluted by EWR/JFK. BOS is the only int'l gateway for a good few hundred miles in each direction (until you get down to around Hartford in CT where JFK becomes closer). Take into accont the population of Maine/NH/Massachusetts/RI you have Philly beat hands down, and thats why the market is much larger. Also, does Philly have a larger college student population than Boston? No.

*end rant*

B752OS · Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:07 am

Quoting SQ452 (Reply 45):
Airbazar, you hit the nail on the head. So much of PHL's urban area is diluted by EWR/JFK. BOS is the only int'l gateway for a good few hundred miles in each direction (until you get down to around Hartford in CT where JFK becomes closer). Take into accont the population of Maine/NH/Massachusetts/RI you have Philly beat hands down, and thats why the market is much larger. Also, does Philly have a larger college student population than Boston? No.

Boston has the Largest population of College students in the country hands down. Boston also sees a large amount of international students, the largest amount in the country as well.

I don't think Kinton was saying that the Boston area is larger than Philadelphia from a population standpoint, but rather from a demand standpoint. He probably was saying that there is more demand to Asia out of the Boston area than the Philadelphia area. Also, there was no mention that he was including the surrounding areas of Maine, NH and Rhode Island the the mentioning of the Boston market.

Look at what Ichiro did for Seattle. When the Mariners signed him, Seattle instantly became a very well known city in Asia. I remember watching a whole special on ESPN about the effects he had on Seattle and Asian people recognizing the city. The same effect could be felt with Boston, even though the area is home to a pretty good sized Asian population.

Quoting B52murph (Reply 44):
When BOS is up to the same standard as some of the other world-class airports in this country (DEN, DFW, even the new DTW), I'll go back to considering them in addition to MHT. Until then...

So you are saying that MHT is more of a world-class airport than BOS? To be honest, that is a stupid statement to make considering the big size and service difference between BOS and MHT. This is not to insult MHT, but it is a small airport, much smaller when compared to Logan from a service and size standpoint. The airports you name, DFW, DEN and DTW all are major hub airports, so of course they are going to be bigger and nicer than BOS. Also, those airports have the luxury of not being situated right next to a city and the ocean, so they have plenty of space to expand and grow, BOS does not. If you are basing your idea on the quality of the airport itself, as far as terminals go, LHR is a complete dump. Aside from the duty free shops, the gate areas are horrible when compared to Logan. So does this mean you think LHR is not a world-class airport? (Considering it handles the most international passengers, to say it isn't would be wrong)

airbazar · Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:14 am

I won't even get into the MHT vs. BOS debate, or comment on the highly informative "BOS sucks" statements that tend to pop-up every now and then. Whenever someone makes a statement like that it's s sure sign that they are completely clueless. As for BOS vs. PHL regarding the potential for non-stop service to Asia, you could make an argument in favor of either city. PHL has the advantage of being a hub airport in a heavily populated region whereas BOS has the advantage of high-yield O&D traffic and not having another international gateway in a 300mi radius. While people who live north of PHL could potentially choose between PHL and EWR for their international service needs, if you live anywhere north of Hartford, CT, BOS is all you've got. And that is a very large and wealthy potential market that has been ignored for way too long. Just look at the number of International passengers that we currently get, almost all of them O&D. Will it happen? I suspect it will, not this year but I wouldn't be surprised to see nonstop service to Asia or an Asian carrier serve BOS in 2008. As for PHL, it will likely happen whenever US gets the necessary equipment and authorization because I just don't see them allowing anyone else to to start the service before them.

B752OS · Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:56 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 47):
I won't even get into the MHT vs. BOS debate, or comment on the highly informative "BOS sucks" statements that tend to pop-up every now and then. Whenever someone makes a statement like that it's s sure sign that they are completely clueless. As for BOS vs. PHL regarding the potential for non-stop service to Asia, you could make an argument in favor of either city. PHL has the advantage of being a hub airport in a heavily populated region whereas BOS has the advantage of high-yield O&D traffic and not having another international gateway in a 300mi radius. While people who live north of PHL could potentially choose between PHL and EWR for their international service needs, if you live anywhere north of Hartford, CT, BOS is all you've got. And that is a very large and wealthy potential market that has been ignored for way too long. Just look at the number of International passengers that we currently get, almost all of them O&D. Will it happen? I suspect it will, not this year but I wouldn't be surprised to see nonstop service to Asia or an Asian carrier serve BOS in 2008. As for PHL, it will likely happen whenever US gets the necessary equipment and authorization because I just don't see them allowing anyone else to to start the service before them.

My comments were not aimed at starting a BOS vs. MHT argument in case that's what you thought. I was just stating a simple fact that BOS is much bigger than MHT. I could easily make the same statement about ORD being much larger than BOS, just stating simple facts. To be fair, there are a couple of international gateways within 300 mils of Boston. JFK and EWR are both within 250 miles of Boston. As the article metnioned, a great deal of passengers from BOS use JFK as a connecting gateway to Asia. In the end, I believe that both PHL and BOS, along with MIA, will see non-stop service to Asia within the next 3-4 years. The 787 is really going to open up a lot of long and thin routes for airlines.

incitatus · Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:04 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 39):
I can't believe people are thinking that the route will be viable because of a baseball player!

That is indeed funny.
There is plenty of Boston-Asia traffic to support a single daily flight to Narita. The problem is Narita's connectivity is poor.

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