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oly720man
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Denver Hoping To Be More International

Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:19 pm

http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_5404191

Since securing the Munich flight, Denver officials have turned their attention to attracting a nonstop Tokyo flight - considered to be the most important target, though likely years from becoming a reality.

"Tokyo is a gateway into Asia for us," Covington said.

Other possible direct routes to Asia include Seoul, South Korea; Hong Kong; Bangkok, Thailand; and Taipei, Taiwan.

Looking toward Europe, DIA officials hope to one day see flights to Manchester, England; Rome; Paris; and Amsterdam, Netherlands, for which DIA is offering incentives as it did for the Munich flight, but only for this year.


Is Denver too far in the wilds to attract other services and are there too many other hubs to connect from for many other airlines to want to fly international to/from there? If there was a major market wouldn't there already be such flights?
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donder10
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:23 pm

Surely they will get double daily on LHR, with UA starting the route, as soon as Open Skies occurs? NH with the 787 is surely their best bet for Asia at the moment?Would there be any payload restrictions with the 777s doing the route currently?
 
airfrnt
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:28 pm

Quoting Oly720man (Thread starter):
Is Denver too far in the wilds to attract other services and are there too many other hubs to connect from for many other airlines to want to fly international to/from there? If there was a major market wouldn't there already be such flights?

Denver is the largest international hub without a Asian route. As far as being too far in the wilds (what is this, the 1850s?) there is a fairly large japanese, chinese, telecom and technology startup markets here that could probably sustain a 787 flight easily, but be a bit harder to fill a 744.

Quoting Donder10 (Reply 1):
Surely they will get double daily on LHR, with UA starting the route, as soon as Open Skies occurs?

UA made the decision not to use DEN as a international facility but to take advantage of the airport's efficiency and model it as a low turn time domestic hub. They have certainly reconsidered that since LH and BA are making buckets of money with their international flights, but there are some real reasons why this is problematic.

I think F9 might actually be the carrier to watch in this space. F9 and FL have made sounds for years about getting more involved in international service, and F9 has built a very nice little Mexican route system that they are working on expanding. It would not be too far of a streach to see them lease a few 767s while the 787s start coming on the market and taking advantage of the Open Sky agreement (assuming the UK doesn't veto it).
 
Kevin777
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:31 pm

Quoting Oly720man (Thread starter):
Is Denver too far in the wilds to attract other services and are there too many other hubs to connect from for many other airlines to want to fly international to/from there? If there was a major market wouldn't there already be such flights?

Well, I guess it can support traffic year-round, although of course still seasonal, and for Star-airlines it's surely a good destination for onwards traffic to the West. Also, DEN should be a very, very good transfer airport - and many Europeans hate transferring in the US because of so much hassle usually (because of immigration, mainly, but still).

I guess a drawback is that O-and-D, and thus a lot of high-yield traffic, is limited by the modest size of the DEN catchment area.. As for Asia, it might not be the perfect gateway to the US, but why not a city or two in the Far East.. Can't see NRT though; far too precious slots to use them for DEN (no offence anyone..!)

Quoting Donder10 (Reply 1):
Would there be any payload restrictions with the 777s doing the route currently?

Though so as well.. DEN is pretty elevated..

Kevin777  Smile
"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
 
IADLHR
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:32 pm

Sometimes i wonder if BD would do well with DEN-MAN service, considering it is a Star hubAlso. Other than LAS, there is no flight to MAN from west of the Mississippi.. Other times I dont think the flight would do well. Anybody have any thoughts on this?
 
airblue
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:45 pm

Rumors suggest for summer 2008 a possible seasonal flight FCO-DEN operated by Air One with A343 on a code sharing basis with UA.
 
Kevin777
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 4):
Sometimes i wonder if BD would do well with DEN-MAN service, considering it is a Star hubAlso. Other than LAS, there is no flight to MAN from west of the Mississippi.. Other times I dont think the flight would do well. Anybody have any thoughts on this?

Good idea or not, you never now with BD.. SMB, throw your dice, and see if BD should fly to DEN..

But, seriously, I guess it could be a good option for BD to have a little monopoly.. But don't know, I guess VFR traffic is modest from the U.K. to Colorado and around (or?), and for the West Coast there are probably better opportunities from LHR

Kevin777  Smile
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oly720man
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:49 pm

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 4):
Sometimes i wonder if BD would do well with DEN-MAN service, considering it is a Star hubAlso. Other than LAS, there is no flight to MAN from west of the Mississippi.

I could imagine it doing well at both ends, e.g. LH into MAN and then on to DEN. My parents have flown BA on the MAN-JFK flight and there are plenty of people connecting from Europe to get to the US (the tickets are normally cheaper than just MAN-JFK). If there's anything that MAN is missing it's connections to the western side of the US and onwards. Whether there'd be an impact on flights to ORD....

Is DEN a good connection for skiiing in Colorado? A few years ago a colleague went skiing in Colorado and the trouble she had getting there from MAN with 2 young kids.... I think she had to go via AMS and MSP going and then back some other circuitous route.
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
Mir
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:57 pm

Quoting Oly720man (Reply 7):
Is DEN a good connection for skiiing in Colorado?

Pretty much the best there is. There are buses to several nearby resorts from the airport, and UA has several Express flights (or mainline during the peak season) that can take you further into the mountains.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
airfrnt
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:00 am

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 3):

I guess a drawback is that O-and-D, and thus a lot of high-yield traffic, is limited by the modest size of the DEN catchment area.. As for Asia, it might not be the perfect gateway to the US, but why not a city or two in the Far East.. Can't see NRT though; far too precious slots to use them for DEN (no offence anyone..!)

The DEN catchment area is huge geographically, but just not very dense, so not large in terms of people  Wink

Quoting Mir (Reply 8):

Pretty much the best there is. There are buses to several nearby resorts from the airport, and UA has several Express flights (or mainline during the peak season) that can take you further into the mountains.

It's a two hour drive from there to the slopes.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:01 am

Quoting Oly720man (Thread starter):
Is Denver too far in the wilds to attract other services and are there too many other hubs to connect from for many other airlines to want to fly international to/from there? If there was a major market wouldn't there already be such flights?

DEN is in a much more enviable position to catch such flights than other airports in the Mountain Time Zone region like SLC (a catchment area only just over half the size of DEN). The only real competition for such routes into the area as far as O&D goes is PHX.

Quoting Oly720man (Reply 7):
Is DEN a good connection for skiiing in Colorado? A few years ago a colleague went skiing in Colorado and the trouble she had getting there from MAN with 2 young kids.... I think she had to go via AMS and MSP going and then back some other circuitous route.

There are a lot of variables involved with this one. EGE for example is better connected on AA from ORD, DFW or even MIA than on UA via DEN or DL/OO via SLC. ASE on the other hand is highly accessible from DEN, SLC or PHX, not to mention any of the west coast hubs.
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PanAm747
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:04 am

As I recall, wasn't the longest runway, 16R/34L, built at 16,000 ft long specifically made so UA could do Denver to Asia flights with a fully loaded 747 or 777 in the worst possible conditions?

Let me ask this further question: we all know that UA has always used SFO as its primary Asia hub - the O&D numbers there are staggering, not to mention the profitability of connecting passengers as well. While Denver might be able to support an Asia flight or two, is SFO's domination what is keeping an Asia expansion? What about wide-body availability? And yes, what about when the 787 hits the market - would a few of those in UA colors be what Denver needs for a NRT or ICN flight?
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airfrnt
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:13 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 11):
As I recall, wasn't the longest runway, 16R/34L, built at 16,000 ft long specifically made so UA could do Denver to Asia flights with a fully loaded 747 or 777 in the worst possible conditions?

Yep.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 11):
Let me ask this further question: we all know that UA has always used SFO as its primary Asia hub - the O&D numbers there are staggering, not to mention the profitability of connecting passengers as well. While Denver might be able to support an Asia flight or two, is SFO's domination what is keeping an Asia expansion? What about wide-body availability? And yes, what about when the 787 hits the market - would a few of those in UA colors be what Denver needs for a NRT or ICN flight?

DEN is the 787 poster child. If the concept behind the 787 (smaller planes between secondary markets rather then shoe-horning everyone into large mega hubs) works (and yes, I think it will) DEN will probably be one of the airports that benefits the most.
 
mkorpal
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:14 am

Well, The 787 was designed specifically for DEN international service, so as soon as these start coming in, I'm sure we will see more international service hear. Runway length is not a problem, what is a problem is max ground speed. If a jet can take off within it's max ground speed from DEN, than there is no problem. I'm not sure if a fully loaded 777 can do this in a 100 degree day in july. But it won't be a problem most of the time. As for the catchment area, the international catchment area is a lot larger than the domestic catchment area. If you live in SLC, for example, you need to fly to Los Angeles to catch a flight to Asia, But if DEN had some flights, they could fly there.
 
CALMSP
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:26 am

DEN-NRT can work..............we've done it with a fully loaded 777-200 before!!! (albeit a diversion IAH-NRT, but we still flew the route  Smile
 
Trvlr
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:43 am

If Sabena could make a 743 work at CVG during the ill-fated alliance with DL, then certainly the massive feed at DEN could sustain a 787 to NRT. The feed is, in my opinion, the main (though not only) reason DEN has two routes to Germany now. If UA was aligned with, say, AF, we'd instead be seeing DEN crow about its second daily to CDG.

NRT isn't a matter of if, it's a matter of when. I'd expect it before 2010.

Aaron G.
 
unitednrt
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:51 am

A Denver to Tokyo routing on United utilizing B777 equipment can be maintained.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 11):
Let me ask this further question: we all know that UA has always used SFO as its primary Asia hub - the O&D numbers there are staggering, not to mention the profitability of connecting passengers as well. While Denver might be able to support an Asia flight or two, is SFO's domination what is keeping an Asia expansion? What about wide-body availability? And yes, what about when the 787 hits the market - would a few of those in UA colors be what Denver needs for a NRT or ICN flight?

Granted that San Francisco is the main Asian gateway, followed by Chicago O'Hare, does not mean Denver will not see Asian service in the future. United knows that Denver can and will support year-round daily B777 services to several Asian destinations yet the opportunities available to the company from other hub operations in terms of aircraft scheduling provide for greater operational flexibility. The company is running the widebodied fleet near max capacity without compromising overall system reliability and won't shift scheduling unless absolutely necessary. The company is fully aware of the opportunities provided by Denver to begin such service and will launch services when deemed appropriate.

Regards,

UnitedNRT
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Dreamflight767
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:59 am

I flew UA 869 (DEN-SFO) a B777 last Friday. The flight was absolutely packed; I was amazed how many of those pax where connecting to Asia. If a DEN-NRT opened, I am more than sure they would pack that flight full.

A-
 
Mir
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:27 am

Quoting Dreamflight767 (Reply 17):
I flew UA 869 (DEN-SFO) a B777 last Friday. The flight was absolutely packed; I was amazed how many of those pax where connecting to Asia. If a DEN-NRT opened, I am more than sure they would pack that flight full.

UA's Asia network is much more than just NRT, however. How many on that flight were actually going to NRT, as opposed to ICN, or PEK? Though I suppose a DEN-NRT flight would connect well with ANA to wherever else people needed to go.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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ramprat74
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:27 am

KE served the DEN-SEL market non-stop in the past, and couldn't make it work. Why does DIA think another airline would want to try it?
 
MAH4546
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:33 am

Quoting Ramprat74 (Reply 19):
KE served the DEN-SEL market non-stop in the past, and couldn't make it work. Why does DIA think another airline would want to try it?

It was not non-stop, it was via San Francisco.

Quoting Oly720man (Thread starter):
Looking toward Europe, DIA officials hope to one day see flights to Manchester, England; Rome; Paris; and Amsterdam, Netherlands, for which DIA is offering incentives as it did for the Munich flight, but only for this year.

Manchester and Rome? That's funny.

Paris or Amsterdam would work, though, especially considering how huge hubs they are. One or the other, though, at least for now.
a.
 
coa747
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:36 am

I don't see why Tokyo or other European cities are out of the question. As long as the airline secures a commitment from the business community to use it then it could work out, that plus the traffic they could funnel off the hub. Portland is the smallest city in the US to have nonstop flights to both Asia and Continental Europe. They made it work by ensuring there was a commitment by companies like Nike, Freightliner and others to use the service. It was a tough initial sell as the first question airlines like Lufthansa wanted answered was why did Delta fail? But both the Northwest Tokyo and Lufthansa Frankfurt flights have been very successful and that is without connecting passengers from a hub, as Portland is primarily an O & D market. All the more reason I see that Denver could do it.
 
rwsea
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:54 am

Quoting Coa747 (Reply 21):
They made it work by ensuring there was a commitment by companies like Nike, Freightliner and others to use the service. It was a tough initial sell as the first question airlines like Lufthansa wanted answered was why did Delta fail? But both the Northwest Tokyo and Lufthansa Frankfurt flights have been very successful and that is without connecting passengers from a hub, as Portland is primarily an O & D market. All the more reason I see that Denver could do it.

As with so many other similar topics (the SLC-CDG one, for example), no one is saying that NRT-DEN couldn't be successful. In fact, I have very little doubt that the plane could go out full every day. The question is yields and limited aircraft availability. Airlines have to ask themselves where they have the most premium demand and where they can make the most with limited resources. Obviously UA feels they can make more money flying to NRT from IAD, ORD, LAX, SFO, and SEA than they can by taking away one of these cities and adding DEN. The reality is that the vast majority of connecting pax can just as easily connect in one of the aforementioned cities, but none of these cities really REQUIRE feed to make them profitable, as might be the case with DEN.

And PDX is a special case, but you can't really use the "it's not a hub factor", because NRT is a hub for NW, and FRA is for LH. Also, NW has lots of feed at PDX from QX/AS (in fact, NW prefers to route connecting traffic through PDX to help relieve pressure on SEA-NRT), and LH is fed to an extent by flights from around the Pacific Northwest. I don't know if PDX is really a valid comparison.
 
klwright69
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:35 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 20):
Quoting Ramprat74 (Reply 19):
KE served the DEN-SEL market non-stop in the past, and couldn't make it work. Why does DIA think another airline would want to try it?

It was not non-stop, it was via San Francisco.

Actually I am sure it was LAX
 
Iloveboeing
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:43 am

Quoting UnitedNRT (Reply 16):
The company is running the widebodied fleet near max capacity without compromising overall system reliability and won't shift scheduling unless absolutely necessary. The company is fully aware of the opportunities provided by Denver to begin such service and will launch services when deemed appropriate.

Then, maybe UA should order more 777s and possibly 787s to fix that problem.
 
ZRH
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:45 am

Quoting Oly720man (Reply 7):
Is DEN a good connection for skiiing in Colorado?

 Big grin Yes, but obviously, for a few low-yield skiing tourist no airline would open a route.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:49 am

Quoting Klwright69 (Reply 23):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 20):
Quoting Ramprat74 (Reply 19):
KE served the DEN-SEL market non-stop in the past, and couldn't make it work. Why does DIA think another airline would want to try it?

It was not non-stop, it was via San Francisco.

Actually I am sure it was LAX

No, it was San Francisco.

http://denver.bizjournals.com/denver/stories/1997/02/10/story1.html
a.
 
airfrnt
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:52 am

Quoting ZRH (Reply 25):
Yes, but obviously, for a few low-yield skiing tourist no airline would open a route.

I don't know what skiing tourists look like over in Europe, but the last word I think anyone would use here for skiiers is low yield.
 
dia77
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:58 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 26):
Actually I am sure it was LAX

No, it was San Francisco.

You both are right. It started out being routed through SFO and after a couple of years, it was moved to LAX.
 
dia77
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:08 am

Quoting Ramprat74 (Reply 19):
KE served the DEN-SEL market non-stop in the past, and couldn't make it work. Why does DIA think another airline would want to try it?

The fact that this route was NOT nonstop was a big part of the reason why it wasn't successful (with passengers). KE offered no advantage to travellers over United. KE started this route with a Combi since cargo was the primary driver.
 
ZRH
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:26 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 27):
I don't know what skiing tourists look like over in Europe, but the last word I think anyone would use here for skiiers is low yield.

Actually most tourist are low-yield because they are flying economy class. For a good route you need people flying business and first, which I assume most ski tourists don't do. For a legacy carrier I think it is very difficult to start an international route only with tourists. Either you need - as said - O and D business or a lot of transfer passengers to feed the flights.
 
airfrnt
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:50 am

Quoting ZRH (Reply 30):
Actually most tourist are low-yield because they are flying economy class. For a good route you need people flying business and first, which I assume most ski tourists don't do.

Ignoring the bad assumption for a moment, F9 is a LCC and has a single class configuration and does quite well with it.

In terms of tourists being low yield, in Colorado nothing could be further from the truth. The Ski business tends to be much more targeted at upper middle and upper class demographics, although obviously there is a lot of business across the board. Vail, Aspen, Steamboat, etc are not cheap, and tourists do not tend to travel to the places that are (Winter Park and Eldora).

UA gets much better business class loads during winter tourist traffic because of this. F9 (which does one class anyways) does a variety of promotions (expensive promotions) allowing people to bundle ski and flights and made a nice little piggy bank off it.

The big concern right now in Colorado is that the Ski business has gotten too targeted at high margin customers, and it's population demographics are getting older as a result. There is a effort to actually make skiing more affordable, even if it means lower margins for businesses.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 30):
For a legacy carrier I think it is very difficult to start an international route only with tourists. ]Either you need - as said - O and D business or a lot of transfer passengers to feed the flights.

There is plenty of O&D traffic in DEN. And there is plenty of tourist travel during both the summer and winter months. Ask F9 how well their mexican route system is doing. It's a big part of the reason that DEN punches signficiantly above it's weight O&D number wise.
 
OOer
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:03 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 11):
As I recall, wasn't the longest runway, 16R/34L, built at 16,000 ft long specifically made so UA could do Denver to Asia flights with a fully loaded 747 or 777 in the worst possible conditions?



Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 12):
Yep.

No. Actually it was built so that LH could fly their A346 to FRA without too many restrictions.
 
dia77
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:24 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 31):
In terms of tourists being low yield, in Colorado nothing could be further from the truth. The Ski business tends to be much more targeted at upper middle and upper class demographics, although obviously there is a lot of business across the board. Vail, Aspen, Steamboat, etc are not cheap, and tourists do not tend to travel to the places that are (Winter Park and Eldora).

Although skiers are a high yielding bunch on flights to EGE and ASE, they tend not to be high yield on flights to DEN. Skiiers (and all tourists in general) tend to book well in advance and are much more price sensitive than business travellers. Last minute travel results in demand inelasticity, which allows airlines to charge more for travel and gain larger margins. So although skiiers have a lot of money, that doesn't mean they spend a lot (in comparison to business travellers) on flights.
 
nosedive
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:36 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 2):
and F9 has built a very nice little Mexican route system that they are working on expanding. It would not be too far of a streach to see them lease a few 767s while the 787s start coming on the market and taking advantage of the Open Sky agreement (assuming the UK doesn't veto it).

What? F9 has an exclusive agreement with Airbus...

Quoting OOer (Reply 32):
No. Actually it was built so that LH could fly their A346 to FRA without too many restrictions.

Considering that runway was orginally slated to open back in the 1990s, only to have construction halt on the runway, I'd say that it was more for CO to put DC10s into London  stirthepot 

Anyone know if Thomsonfly came back to DEN this winter? Also, which A gates are conneted to immigration?
 
gigneil
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:37 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 2):
UA made the decision not to use DEN as a international facility

Yes but not in the context of Open Skies.

United will add as much capacity on DEN-LHR as they can get slots lined up for.

After that happens, I think some more pieces will fall together. LH is doing spectacularly, and I believe Denver will be an early ANA 787 flight. With feed to London, Germany, and Tokyo, and UA's powerhouse domestic service, in my world view, DEN could be a top hub for the Star Alliance. Would be even better if there were international facilities available in B. The final piece of that puzzle would be a 767-300 DEN-CDG and you'd have most of the world's GDP covered.

NS
 
dia77
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:49 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 35):
Anyone know if Thomsonfly came back to DEN this winter?

Thomsonfly is back at DEN this winter with at least 2 frequencies per week. I'm really surprised that DEN doesn't see charters from Japan. It seems as if Japanese tourists prefer skiing in Canada over the Colorado resorts (since there are charter flights to Alberta).
 
mkorpal
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:41 am

Quick question, are international flights from Canada/Mexico required to use the 8 gates that go strait to customs, or are they allowed to use normal gates.
 
dia77
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:48 am

Quoting Mkorpal (Reply 37):
Quick question, are international flights from Canada/Mexico required to use the 8 gates that go strait to customs, or are they allowed to use normal gates.

The Canada flights clear US customs in Canada, so they can arrive at any gate (AC and UA Canada flights arrive in councourse B). Mexico flights are required to use the international gates on concourse A since passengers complete customs in Denver.
 
mkorpal
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:08 am

Quoting DIA77 (Reply 38):
The Canada flights clear US customs in Canada, so they can arrive at any gate (AC and UA Canada flights arrive in councourse B). Mexico flights are required to use the international gates on concourse A since passengers complete customs in Denver.

Thanks. So, the international gates I know of are 37, 41, 43. What are the others? I'm just wondering since I could never really figure it out.
 
dallasnewark
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:22 am

DEN - LHR? There's very little chance of that

There are bigger markets in US that would take precedence over DEN -LHR.
CO at EWR and IAH.
AA at DFW
DL at ATL and JFK.

The above cities have larger economies and more corporate headquarters than DEN would ever get.

It is possible to do DEN-LHR, but at the expense of others more profitable markets
B732/3/4/5/6/7/8/9, B742/4, B752/3,B762/3/4, B772/3, A306, A318/9/20/21, A332/3, A343/6, MD80/83/88, L1011, TU104/134, F
 
dia77
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:27 am

Quoting Dallasnewark (Reply 40):
DEN - LHR? There's very little chance of that

There are bigger markets in US that would take precedence over DEN -LHR.
CO at EWR and IAH.
AA at DFW
DL at ATL and JFK.

The above cities have larger economies and more corporate headquarters than DEN would ever get.

It is possible to do DEN-LHR, but at the expense of others more profitable markets

What are you talking about? BA has operated DEN-LHR for years and United will certainly start that route as soon as US Open Skies goes through.
 
ytib
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:39 am

Quoting Mkorpal (Reply 39):
Thanks. So, the international gates I know of are 37, 41, 43. What are the others? I'm just wondering since I could never really figure it out.

The international gates are A33, A35, A37, A39, A41, A43, A45 and A47. These all have the option to funnel passengers to the second level which then crosses the bridge to immigration and customs.

There was some talk of adding additional gates as well in the future.
318, 319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 388, 707, 717, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73Q, 735, 73G, 738, 7M8, 739, 752, 753, 742, 74L, 744, 762, 763, 772, 77L, 77W, 789, 142, CN1, CR2, CR7, DC8, DH2, DH8, D8Q, D10, D95, EM2, ER3, ER4, E70, 100, J31, M11, M83, M88, M90, SF3
 
dallasnewark
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:46 am

Quoting DIA77 (Reply 41):
What are you talking about? BA has operated DEN-LHR for years and United will certainly start that route as soon as US Open Skies goes through.

I was talking about the US carriers. Continental at Houston and Newark. American at Dallas, and Delta and Atlanta and New York are much bigger markets that have more more corporate headquarters than Denver has, hence the direct service to LHR would not take precedence over those cities.

I'm not knocking down Denver, but it is a secondary market
B732/3/4/5/6/7/8/9, B742/4, B752/3,B762/3/4, B772/3, A306, A318/9/20/21, A332/3, A343/6, MD80/83/88, L1011, TU104/134, F
 
dia77
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:51 am

Quoting Dallasnewark (Reply 43):
I was talking about the US carriers. Continental at Houston and Newark. American at Dallas, and Delta and Atlanta and New York are much bigger markets that have more more corporate headquarters than Denver has, hence the direct service to LHR would not take precedence over those cities.

How does this have an impact on UA's desire to start service to LHR from DEN?
 
dallasnewark
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:53 am

Quoting DIA77 (Reply 44):
How does this have an impact on UA's desire to start service to LHR from DEN?

Would that be feasible for United to pay a premium for an LHR slot to serve a secondary market?

Wouldn't that slot rather be used on an extra flight from IAD, ORD or SFO
B732/3/4/5/6/7/8/9, B742/4, B752/3,B762/3/4, B772/3, A306, A318/9/20/21, A332/3, A343/6, MD80/83/88, L1011, TU104/134, F
 
dia77
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:04 am

Quoting Dallasnewark (Reply 45):
Would that be feasible for United to pay a premium for an LHR slot to serve a secondary market?

Wouldn't that slot rather be used on an extra flight from IAD, ORD or SFO

Well your original argument mentioned cities that weren't United hubs. Furthermore, any competitive analysis on the benefits of adding flights to existing hubs or to the DEN-LHR route would clearly look at the cost-benefits. Considering that there is a large amount of capacity and competition between IAD, ORD, and SFO to London, there is a reduction in the marginal benefit of adding an additional frequency. At DEN, UA has the unique advantage of being able to draw customers from BA (due to their frequent flier base and the relatively low economic switching costs) in a market that is clearly underserved. UA easily had the option of increasing frequency on routes from to LHR after it decided not to serve JFK from LHR. On more than one occasion, UA has said that DEN-LHR is a top priority once an open skies agreement is achieved.
 
BA
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:11 am

Frankly, I think DEN should be proud of what it already has.

While DEN certainly isn't up to the level of JFK, ORD, LAX, MIA, etc, it certainly has a lot more international flights than many other international airports in the USA.

Here is the current list of scheduled international destinations from DEN:

Acapulco, Mexico (Frontier Airlines [seasonal])
Calgary, Canada (United Airlines, United Express, Frontier JetExpress)
Cancún, Mexico (Frontier Airlines, Ted/United Airlines)
Cozumel, Mexico (Frontier Airlines)
Edmonton, Canada (United Express)
Frankfurt, Germany (Lufthansa)
Guadalajara, Mexico (Frontier Airlines)
Ixtapa/Zihuatanejo, Mexico (Frontier Airlines, Ted/United Airlines [seasonal])
London, England (British Airways)
Mazatlán, Mexico (Frontier Airlines)
Mexico City, Mexico (Mexicana, United Airlines [seasonal])
Montréal, Canada (Air Canada)
Munich, Germany (Lufthansa [starts March 31])
Puerto Vallarta, Mexico (Frontier Airlines, Ted/United Airlines)
San José del Cabo Mexico (Ted/United Airlines, Frontier Airlines)
Toronto, Canada (Air Canada, United Airlines, United Express)
Vancouver, Canada (United Airlines, Frontier Airlines [starts May 5])
Winnipeg, Canada (United Express)
Zacatecas, Mexico (Mexicana [seasonal])

I definitely do think DEN needs a link to Asia and I am optimistic about an NRT-DEN flight being launched by either ANA or United in the next couple of years.

I am still hoping for CDG-DEN on Air France, although there used to be more talk about this route in the past and not so much now.

I'd love to see AMS-DEN on either KLM or Northwest, preferably KLM, but I don't think that will happen.

Quoting DIA77 (Reply 46):
On more than one occasion, UA has said that DEN-LHR is a top priority once an open skies agreement is achieved.

Do you think two daily flights to LHR from DEN can be sustained or will British Airways be driven out?

[Edited 2007-03-13 01:14:18]
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
max999
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:19 am

Quoting DIA77 (Reply 44):
How does this have an impact on UA's desire to start service to LHR from DEN?



Quoting DIA77 (Reply 41):
What are you talking about? BA has operated DEN-LHR for years and United will certainly start that route as soon as US Open Skies goes through.

As we know, slots at airports like LHR and NRT are extremely valuable commodities. Home carriers like BA have a lot of them while foreign carriers, like UA, have much fewer. Since BA has so many, they can easily pull a slot off a domestic route and use it for a destination like DEN; they probably figure that slot can earn more revenue flying international than domestic.

Since UA has far fewer LHR slots, they are very precious. Each slot must be used to maximize as much revenue as possible (not that BA doesn't do that, but they just have a lot more flexibility than UA). If UA figures a slot can earn more revenue on a ORD or SFO flight, then they will pass over DEN.

As dallasnewark mentioned in reply #40, there are other cities with more coporate headquarters and larger economies...it's those cities that will generate more business traffic (more revenue).

Also, a 787 will not help UA get a DEN-LHR or even an NRT flight. Instead, it will help home carriers like NH or BA, who have a lot of slots at their respective airports, open up international routes to mid-sized cities.
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RE: Denver Hoping To Be More International

Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:24 am

Quoting Mkorpal (Reply 39):
So, the international gates I know of are 37, 41, 43. What are the others? I'm just wondering since I could never really figure it out.

A33 (Frontier Airlines)
A35 (Frontier Airlines, JetBlue)
A37 (British Airways)
A39 (Frontier Airlines)
A41 (Lufthansa)
A43 (Mexicana)
A45 (Continental Airlines)
A47 (Continental Airlines)

A37 and A41 are dual jetway gates.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran

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