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Sangas
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EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:56 pm

Quote:
Emirates President Tim Clark told ATWOnline last week in Berlin that the operating costs of its A380 fleet will be higher than originally planned.

"There are still an extra six tons of weight we can't get out of the A380. That will cost us extra money in operation for the next 10 or 15 years," Clark said...

http://atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=8229

Interesting, Mr. Clark's assessment of the A380's "performance" continues to be significantly at odds with what's been indicated by SQ and QF as to their general "satisfaction" with the technical aspects of the aircraft.

[Edited 2007-03-15 07:02:27]
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khobar
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:07 pm

Quoting Sangas (Thread starter):
Interesting, Mr. Clark's assessment of the A380's "performance" continues to be significantly at odds with what's been indicated by SQ and QF as to their general "satisfaction" with the technical aspects of the aircraft.

Because both SQ and QF are relying on what Airbus has told them. This has been discussed at length.
 
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LTU932
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:11 pm

There's something that surprises me about what is said in the article, and I quote:

He said a Boeing sales team was in Dubai about two weeks ago to discuss the 747-8 Intercontinental, which Clark said he likes but which would not be able to fulfill certain missions important to the carrier, like nonstop Dubai-Los Angeles service with 400 passengers and a full cargo payload.

^^Isn't that the reason why they're buying the 77L in the first place? Even the A380 might have a hard time doing this route with a full payload.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
NAV20
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:23 pm

Quoting Khobar (Reply 1):
Because both SQ and QF are relying on what Airbus has told them.

OR SQ, QF, AND Emirates are (or aim to be) satisfied with the compensation that Airbus agrees to pay them?

[Edited 2007-03-15 07:45:43]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Beaucaire
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:03 pm

Clark tries to squeeze out some more compensation -that's all...
He has never ever been fully satisfied with any aircraft !
It's his politic to critizise as much as ever possible to put compensation pressure on manufacturers.
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
NAV20
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:11 pm

The 'six tons' has to be fact, though, Beaucaire.

Otherwise he'd get the pants sued off him.......
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
PEET7G
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:18 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 4):
Clark tries to squeeze out some more compensation -that's all...
He has never ever been fully satisfied with any aircraft !
It's his politic to critizise as much as ever possible to put compensation pressure on manufacturers.

Very likely, but what has drawn my attention is the accurate mentioning of the extra weight they can't get rid of... It would be quit a bluff if he is just talking into the air! Is this extra coming from the airframe or the interior that EK wants?

Is this 6 tonnes figure correct? Thats like 2.5% over weight!!!
Peet7G
 
columba
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:21 pm

Quoting Sangas (Thread starter):
Interesting, Mr. Clark's assessment of the A380's "performance" continues to be significantly at odds with what's been indicated by SQ and QF as to their general "satisfaction" with the technical aspects of the aircraft.

The difference is that SQ and QF other than EK already have settled their compensation payments and that EK is also in the middle of negotiations for either 787s or A350s.
Air Berlin - gone but not forgotten
 
ikramerica
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:34 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 2):
^^Isn't that the reason why they're buying the 77L in the first place? Even the A380 might have a hard time doing this route with a full payload.

Clark says a lot of things. He keeps saying how he could "fill 400 seats daily" to LAX.

Yet he hasn't even launched a 1 stop with a 777 or A340. Nor has he announced a nonstop 77L as they arrive. One would assume that if he could fill 400 seats every day, then 2 77Ls (needed for the route), equipped in mostly a premium configuration, would be more profitable than flying 2x 400 seat 748 with the same cargo ability and more Y seats.

I take everything out of the Arabian peninsula airlines with lots of salt, based on their desire to constantly be in the news and the contradicting comments they make.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
andessmf
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:53 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):

Clark says a lot of things. He keeps saying how he could "fill 400 seats daily" to LAX.

Fill with what? passangers? I just don't see the demand.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
I take everything out of the Arabian peninsula airlines with lots of salt

The whole growth of the aviation sector in the ME seems like a bubble to me.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:57 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 2):
There's something that surprises me about what is said in the article, and I quote:

He said a Boeing sales team was in Dubai about two weeks ago to discuss the 747-8 Intercontinental, which Clark said he likes but which would not be able to fulfill certain missions important to the carrier, like nonstop Dubai-Los Angeles service with 400 passengers and a full cargo payload.

^^Isn't that the reason why they're buying the 77L in the first place? Even the A380 might have a hard time doing this route with a full payload.

Yes, that is why they got the B-777-200LR, but it only carries 301 pax. But the B-747-400ER (416 pax) could also do LAX-DXB.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/747family/pf/pf_rc_losangeles.html

As can the B-747-800I (465 pax).

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/747family/747-8_fact_sheet.html

The A-380 can, also (550 pax).

http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfamilies/a380/a380/performance.html

Both the B-747-800I and A-380-800 are advertised as having a range of 8,000nm with full passenger loads and cargo.

According to great circle mapper the distance is 8339nm, but we all know that site doesn't use the actual great circle course. The straight line distance is 7655nm, with a full fuel load, this leaves almost one hour of fuel over the distination for 3 of the 4 airplanes mentioned.
 
PADSpot
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:11 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 5):
The 'six tons' has to be fact, though, Beaucaire.

Otherwise he'd get the pants sued off him.......

At sometime last year Airbus officials said that the A380's weight was virtually back on target. As six tons is way beyond 'virtual', I would say this is customer's power play.

Maybe Mr Clark's statement is an extension of Michael O'Leary's strategy, who said that in some years from now, all FR tickets will be for free and FR will receive most of its revenue from airports (for bring passengers there) and from onboard sales ... Now I guess Mr Clark does not only want that, but also he wants the airplane OEMs to provide airplanes for free. I mean they could get their money from lets say the aviation fuel companies ...
 
astuteman
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:11 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 4):
The 'six tons' has to be fact, though, Beaucaire.

IIRC Airbus themselves have admitted publicly that the A388 airframe is 5 tonnes overweight.

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 6):
Is this extra coming from the airframe or the interior that EK wants?

It's possible that an extra ton could be accounted for by this.
Airbus have said that improvements in aerodynamics and SFC have meant that performance is still within guarantees(and SQ, and QF have backed this up). Presumably that is why Clark makes no comment about claiming compensation for the "overweight".
Sounds like a whinge to me.

Airbus have also publicly stated that they will continue to develop the materials intended for the A388F (Glare2 and Al-Li) for incorporation into later A388's, which should address most, if not all, of the "overweight".

Quoting Khobar (Reply 1):
Quoting Sangas (Thread starter):
Interesting, Mr. Clark's assessment of the A380's "performance" continues to be significantly at odds with what's been indicated by SQ and QF as to their general "satisfaction" with the technical aspects of the aircraft.

Because both SQ and QF are relying on what Airbus has told them. This has been discussed at length.

This has been discussed at length, and that was by no means the conclusion!

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 2):
Even the A380 might have a hard time doing this route with a full payload.

And yet Clark makes no mention of this...  Smile

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
I take everything out of the Arabian peninsula airlines with lots of salt, based on their desire to constantly be in the news and the contradicting comments they make.

Good summary, and sound advice  Smile

Regards
 
Rheinbote
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:26 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
According to great circle mapper the distance is 8339nm, but we all know that site doesn't use the actual great circle course. The straight line distance is 7655nm, with a full fuel load, this leaves almost one hour of fuel over the distination for 3 of the 4 airplanes mentioned.

Beware that the 8000NM ranges quoted by A and B in their marketing brochures are more close to ~7300NM in real life ops.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:51 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
Yes, that is why they got the B-777-200LR, but it only carries 301 pax. But the B-747-400ER (416 pax) could also do LAX-DXB.

Problem is that "published range" is 0 cargo, full passenger load usually. To stretch it virtually anything would have to fly premium heavy configs to reduce the "full passenger load" weight and pack on more fuel. Which can work, as seen by... 737/BBJ flying all premium routes transatlantic, and some of the A345 routes. Of course there is a problem with this kind of route, if it goes just a little wrong... It gets ugly in a hurry since the trip costs are high, and even a empty seat or two can murder revenue thanks to them being premium customers, not "I found a cheap fare this week" Y class.

On the 6 tons overweight, I don't think its a deal breaker, but its going to make meeting publish range figures damn hard even with better aerodynamic and fuel burn they are claiming. The real bitch of it is that its going to make the A380 that much more useless on the short haul flights. So EK may be taking it in the shorts on the economics of alot of their flights since Europe and India are hardly that far away.

Of course this begs the question... Why did they do the RTO at 675tons. Could it be that they CAN'T meet contract requirements at the current MTOWs and will by the time the first A380 is delivered offer the 675ton MTOW for some if not all of them.
 
Rheinbote
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:04 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 14):
Why did they do the RTO at 675tons

They didn't. It was a typo by FLIGHT. According to the corrected article, the tests were done at 575t.
 
Danny
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:04 pm

Had to say something. We had few weeks without Clark on the headlines.
 
Norcal773
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:51 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 4):
He has never ever been fully satisfied with any aircraft !

Except the 773ER.
If you're going through hell, keep going
 
Lumberton
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:55 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 14):
he real bitch of it is that its going to make the A380 that much more useless on the short haul flights. So EK may be taking it in the shorts on the economics of alot of their flights since Europe and India are hardly that far away.

 checkmark  An therein is the real issue for EK IMO. The majority of EK's routes won't challenge the range capabilities of this aircraft, so Clark is rightly concerned about the weight being a cost driver.

Quoting Danny (Reply 16):
Had to say something. We had few weeks without Clark on the headlines.

And we on a.net missed him terribly! He should be good for a few threads this week.  Wink
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
WINGS
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:58 pm

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 17):

Except the 773ER.

Actually he has. On several occasions he has bitched about the price tag of the B77W.

Regards,
Wings
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Norcal773
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:03 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 19):
Actually he has. On several occasions he has bitched about the price tag of the B77W.

You're right, forgot about that. He's still buying em' off the shelves though.
If you're going through hell, keep going
 
art
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:42 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 5):
The 'six tons' has to be fact, though, Beaucaire.

Otherwise he'd get the pants sued off him.......

Airbus has no doubt failed to meet the delivery terms of their contract. Suing your biggest customer when he is in a position to cancel some/all of his order through your failure to perform would be madness.
 
EI321
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:44 pm

Quoting Khobar (Reply 1):
Quoting Sangas (Thread starter):
Interesting, Mr. Clark's assessment of the A380's "performance" continues to be significantly at odds with what's been indicated by SQ and QF as to their general "satisfaction" with the technical aspects of the aircraft.

Because both SQ and QF are relying on what Airbus has told them.

I thought auditors were sent to inspect the whole thing for themselves, after which they came back happy and an add on order was placed.
 
Lumberton
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:47 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 26):
I thought auditors were sent to inspect the whole thing for themselves, after which they came back happy and an add on order was placed.

AFAIK, only EK sent "auditors" or representatives to the factory to monitor production. QF and SQ may have, but I'm not aware that they did. Mr. Clark is likely relying on first-hand information here.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:50 pm

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 15):
Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 14):
Why did they do the RTO at 675tons

They didn't. It was a typo by FLIGHT. According to the corrected article, the tests were done at 575t.

quite right, hit the wrong number. Still 575 is how many tons over the current "certified" MTOW? That I think is the interesting number.
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:53 pm

Did Emirates already accepted compensations from Airbus? If yes, they are binded to their original contract, so cancelling them is out of the order. Anyone out there knows if they've got their compensation deal ready?

Cheers!  wave 
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NAV20
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:58 pm

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 30):
Anyone out there knows if they've got their compensation deal ready?

According to the article, they're still negotiating:-

"He did say that EK and Airbus are nearing a delay compensation agreement; "We are too important for them, and they don't want us leaving for Boeing."

I know which side of the negotiations I'D sooner be on.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
F22KA
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:24 pm

A380 Overweight?! Not a big deal Mr. Clark. Don't paint the plane, put inflatable seats/beds in First Class, replace the CRT's with plasma displays and require the passengers to leave their shoes at the Check-In desk. The shoes and the luggage, ship them with a cargo plane that leaves right after the passenger plane.
Look at the bright side, you are going to fly the biggest, newest and most quiet airplane in the world. There is an old Chinese saying: "you can't have both the goat and the cabbage".
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:25 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 12):
Airbus have said that improvements in aerodynamics and SFC have meant that performance is still within guarantees



Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 24):
Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 15):
Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 14):
Why did they do the RTO at 675tons

They didn't. It was a typo by FLIGHT. According to the corrected article, the tests were done at 575t.

quite right, hit the wrong number. Still 575 is how many tons over the current "certified" MTOW? That I think is the interesting number.

Airbus statements relative to final flight test A380 fuel mileage have been very difficult to find. There is no assurance the final numbers were better than the pre-flight estimates.

The Type Cert Data Sheet Alternate MTOW of 569t is probably the way Airbus is able to meet its mission commitments to the airlines. The 9t increase in MTOW would cover a 5t-6t higher OEW. This is re-enforced as the MLW and MZFW of the 569t MTOW airplane are also increased by 5t, consistent with a 5t higher OEW.

The interesting question is why the Max. Energy RTO was done at 575t. Was this 6t increase over the TCDS 569t MTOW done to show a margin or is another small MOTW increase planned?
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
Lumberton
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:44 pm

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 25):
Did Emirates already accepted compensations from Airbus?

AFAIK, not on the A380. This is very much open to negotiation. When you order 40+ of these things, it gives you a right to posture in public.  Wink
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
LoungeLover
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:45 am

I'm just so tired of constantly hearing Clarke winge and whine about aircrafts in general but the A380 specifically.
 yawn 

Get on with your business, buy planes like there is no tomorrow and drill airports and runways into the sand like it's SimCity!
 indifferent 
 
gbfra
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:50 am

It should be added that Clark, participating in a panel in Berlin, was quite optimistic about the prospects of the A380.

He said that it was a fine aircraft and that sales would certainly increase as soon as it will be in operation.
The fundamental things apply as time goes by
 
Dougloid
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:00 am

If I recall correctly Clark's been on the 'six tons and whaddya get' routine for a while. Nothing new there.
Howevah, if a fellow was to look at the reeeeports that came out of the Airbus Grand Imperial Joyride and Media Circus a few weeks ago, one could find some veddy veddy interesting weight NUMBERS that suggest maybe he's being optimistic or doesn't know the full implications of what he's hearing.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
flysherwood
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:12 am

Quoting Gbfra (Reply 31):
It should be added that Clark, participating in a panel in Berlin, was quite optimistic about the prospects of the A380.

He said that it was a fine aircraft and that sales would certainly increase as soon as it will be in operation.

What else is he going to say? He bought 40+ of these aircraft. Is he really going to say that it is not a good airplane so his customers hear him? I will bet that Airbus sells 40 A380's this year as long as SQ gets their plane this fall. If they are delayed again, all bets are off.
 
astuteman
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:40 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 28):
The Type Cert Data Sheet Alternate MTOW of 569t is probably the way Airbus is able to meet its mission commitments to the airlines.

FWIW I think you're right on this one.
The key question, which, as you ponit out, we don't really know the answer, is:-

"Have Airbus/RR found 1.5% in either aerodynamics or fuel burn, or both, to offset the 1.5% growth in MTOW?"

Regards
 
NYC777
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:43 am

What's interesting is Airbus' reaction and their spokeperson's defensive comments.

It looks like battle lines are being drawn in the sand vis a vis EK's A380 order.

EK is betting that Airbus cannot afford to lose EK as a customer esp. when EK can go to the 748I and cancel part of the A380 order not to mention they can go to Boeing for the 787 and totally fore go the A350.

Airbus cannot possibly give up any more in terms of compensation in the A380 program which is already being hit hard with massive losses. They may have to tell EK to screw off with regards to a cash compensation.

[Edited 2007-03-15 18:48:54]
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
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Stitch
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:47 am

And does a rise in MTOW require an equal rise in OEW?

The 787-9's MTOW has grown a good bit from it's original spec, yet I'm pretty sure OEW has not risen in lock-step with it, even with OEW being 1t or so over target as of last report.
 
EI321
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:51 am

Whts he refering to, the original weight? I thought the performance was increased since then?
 
astuteman
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:52 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 36):
And does a rise in MTOW require an equal rise in OEW?

I know what you're saying, but it would appear that the converse was actually true.

I also wonder if this was a contributor to the "miss" on the wing test (which added a whopping 30kg to the OEW ( 16kg for new-build  Wink ) )?

Regards
 
Iloveboeing
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:03 am

Well, if EK is not satisifed with the A380, then they could cancel the order, and order 50 772LRs and 50 773ERs. Twin-engined aircraft do save fuel, after all.
 
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Stitch
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:50 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 35):
Airbus cannot possibly give up any more in terms of compensation in the A380 program which is already being hit hard with massive losses. They may have to tell EK to screw off with regards to a cash compensation.

Airbus may lose more money by having EK walk then keeping them on.

Even should Airbus "go negative" on the initial order to keep it, if EK grows as much as they expect, they will be back for more. And that growth will also put pressure on other carriers to grow and they too, will be calling on Airbus for additional A388s.

Yet if Airbus tells EK to pound sand and EK walks to Boeing (be it the 747, 777, 787, Y3, or whathaveyou), that means even more money for Boeing since EK will need to buy more Boeing product to meet the same capacity as the A388. And if the customer accounting for 25% of your order book walks to a competitor, that's a statement that they believe they can do better with Boeing product then the A388 at a certain price-point for each and other carriers may hedge their own bets and switch to Boeing, as well.
 
UAEflyer
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:14 am

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 17):
Except the 773ER.

every time i see him he criticise the 77W, he is only happy with the 777ER & A332 i dont know why!!

He will surprise you guys within few weeks, this guy have full authority to do what ever he wants in EK. Every single day he criticise DXB airport authority and once said that his EK should manage the airport and kick the authority out.

About the A380, he is very concerned about the huge number he ordered and the delay story, he promised the government to increase their dividend at least 2 digits (%).

Well Clark cant wait to see the government eating you
 
Leskova
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RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:18 am

I love how some around here will automatically accept anything negative Mr. Clark says about the A380 as fact, while anything positive is commented on with the old line "He's ordered 40 of them, what else is he going to say?"... honestly, if he'd have anything resembling such a split personality as some around here are effectively attributing him with, he'd be institutionalized...

Instead, he's running a massively expanding and massively profitable airline...

Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 39):
Well, if EK is not satisifed with the A380, then they could cancel the order, and order 50 772LRs and 50 773ERs. Twin-engined aircraft do save fuel, after all.

If it were quite that simple, nothing else would be selling. Yet, that's not the case - because even though quads do consume more fuel, there are, indeed, routes on which they simply beat twins on the overall numbers.

Otherwise, carriers such as LH, SQ, CX, BA or QF would not have any quads in their fleets... and certainly none on order... and, yes, I'm aware that BA and CX currently don't have quads on order, though, like quite a lot of people, I'd not be surprised to see them listed on either the B748's or the A380's order sheet sometime soon...
Smile - it confuses people!
 
flydreamliner
Posts: 1928
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:05 am

RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:37 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 9):
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):

Clark says a lot of things. He keeps saying how he could "fill 400 seats daily" to LAX.

Fill with what? passangers? I just don't see the demand.

Well, for part of the year.... in summer, DXB to SoCal is a solid market... I don't feel like he'd put 400 pax onboard 365 days a year.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
Yes, that is why they got the B-777-200LR, but it only carries 301 pax. But the B-747-400ER (416 pax) could also do LAX-DXB.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/747family/pf/pf_rc_losangeles.html

As can the B-747-800I (465 pax).

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/747family/747-8_fact_sheet.html

The A-380 can, also (550 pax).

Not really... unfortunately. Between the wind and the fact that the route between is not the great circle route (you can't fly he great circle between). A few different threads on here have addressed it, and to make this route both ways with headwinds and a full load 12 months a year, the plane will need somewhere between 8,300 and 8,500nm range in order to do it without fear.

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 13):
Beware that the 8000NM ranges quoted by A and B in their marketing brochures are more close to ~7300NM in real life ops.

Yes and no. Look at the 747-400 and the ORD-HKG route.... it is flying pretty much the full range Boeing advertises it as having.

Quoting Art (Reply 21):
Airbus has no doubt failed to meet the delivery terms of their contract. Suing your biggest customer when he is in a position to cancel some/all of his order through your failure to perform would be madness.

Let's be honest, Clark could say the thing doesn't fly, the worst airbus could do is disagree. Sue EK? If EK pulled its order, the A380 program would be in a really sore situation.

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 41):
About the A380, he is very concerned about the huge number he ordered and the delay story, he promised the government to increase their dividend at least 2 digits (%).

Well Clark cant wait to see the government eating you

Well, I'm just waiting till EK implodes upon itself... a little bit too much optimism was at work here. I feel like Emirates is on the way to being an Enron of Airlines.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15136
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:46 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 38):
I also wonder if this was a contributor to the "miss" on the wing test (which added a whopping 30kg to the OEW ( 16kg for new-build   ) )?

Shows how tight Airbus was cutting the margins to keep weight down, doesn't it? I mean, they failed a test and all it took was 40 pounds of material (new build) to not fail. That's one piece of luggage!!!

I wonder if Boeing is cutting it that close with the 787 to get it's weight down. We'll see soon enough, right?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Cost

Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:23 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 35):
They may have to tell EK to screw off with regards to a cash compensation.

Clark's boss, Flanigan has already stated that they will not pull an "SQ" or a "QF"..i.e.-any other aircraft order, lease, ect. will be completely different from the A380 compensation....I think EK is looking for direct cash.....

....lets see what happens....

Quoting EI321 (Reply 37):
Whts he refering to, the original weight? I thought the performance was increased since then?

....even as of summer 2005, the plane was 2.5% overweight..however, the engine SFC's have turned out to be better than anticipated...thus allowing the A380 to "hit its numbers"....

..if the plane is hitting its numbers (which I'm assuming it is now-or is close to), I don't see why Clark is getting his knickers in a twist regarding this aspect of the A380.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
UAEflyer
Posts: 1284
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:29 pm

RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:44 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 43):
Well, I'm just waiting till EK implodes upon itself... a little bit too much optimism was at work here. I feel like Emirates is on the way to being an Enron of Airlines.

well, i wouldn't say Enron, but maybe .com bubble
 
User avatar
ER757
Posts: 4086
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:16 am

RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:08 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 16):
Had to say something. We had few weeks without Clark on the headlines.

That's probably it - this guy seems to like to see his name in the press, can you think of another airline exec who's publicly berated both aircraft and OEM's as much as Clark?

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 46):
Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 43):
Well, I'm just waiting till EK implodes upon itself... a little bit too much optimism was at work here. I feel like Emirates is on the way to being an Enron of Airlines.

well, i wouldn't say Enron, but maybe .com bubble

Yeah, the dot com bubble is a better analogy. Enron was a bunch of crooks, I don't think EK could/should be lumped in with them. But like the dot.com'ers, he (possibly) is over-optimistic about the future. Time will tell, we shall see.....
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:25 am

Quoting ER757 (Reply 47):
But like the dot.com'ers, he (possibly) is over-optimistic about the future.

There has never been such a great expansion of an airline in history, and 45 A380s seem a bit excessive to me. I would say that EK is very much like the .com bubble, especially since you have other airlines in the region attempting to do the same thing.
 
astuteman
Posts: 7369
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: EK's Clark: Overweight A380 Will Increase Costs

Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:34 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 28):
The interesting question is why the Max. Energy RTO was done at 575t. Was this 6t increase over the TCDS 569t MTOW done to show a margin or is another small MOTW increase planned?

Bit of lateral thinking here.......
If 569t MTOW was to restore mission capability lost by the 5t "overweight OEW, why test at 575t?

On its own, the extra 6 t might not gain the A380 much, but IIRC, Airbus have said that the Glare2/Al-Li A380F derived improvements I mentioned earlier sholud be available from c. frame 100 onwards.
If those improvements recover say, 4t of the original OEW "overweight", an "improved" 575t A388 might well end up with the capability of carrying an extra 10t (6t + 4t) more fuel for a given payload than the 569t "full mission capable 8 000Nm" A388.
i.e. the "max pax" fuel load could go up by c. 4%.

c 4% of a nominal 8 000 Nm range is...... 300Nm.
Is this a way for Airbus to defend against the "short" 748i, by providing the capability to offer EK the same 8300Nm nominal range of the shorter 748i in an "improved" 575t A388?
As well as defending against the "short" 748i, it might just give Airbus the capability of offering something to EK that EK actually value, as a negotiating tool to minimise the financial damage from EK's compensation claims....

Lateral thinking or wishful thinking? Don't know, but there's a certain logic.......... Smile

Regards

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