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TACAA320
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Virgin Eyes Europe-U.S. Flights Under "open Skies"

Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:20 pm

" LONDON, March 18 (Reuters) - Virgin Atlantic [VA.UL] has begun work on an aggressive plan to launch direct U.S. flights from cities across Europe if the European Union backs a landmark plan to liberalise transatlantic air travel this week.

An "open skies" deal outlined by U.S. and EU negotiators this month and hailed as the most important air travel pact in decades goes to EU transport ministers for review on March 22. "Virgin is exploring direct services to America from several European hubs," said a Virgin Atlantic spokesman..."

Complete text at: http://yahoo.reuters.com/news/articl...-09_L1610291&type=comktNews&rpc=44
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EWRCabincrew
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RE: Virgin Eyes Europe-U.S. Flights Under "open Skies"

Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:28 pm

All is fair in love and war. Good for them. Bring on the competition. That and it gives the traveller more choice.
You can't cure stupid
 
ikramerica
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RE: Virgin Eyes Europe-U.S. Flights Under "open Skies"

Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:21 pm

As i said in another thread, the only airline truly against this in the EU would be BA. VS benefits, BMI benefits, all the other EU airlines benefit. So if the UK tries to block it, they are doing it for Willie Walsh.

On our side of the pond, AA stands to lose the most, but even they gain the DFW-LHR rights. UA can't really be concerned too much because they gave up on NYC, and LAX, ORD, SFO they already compete with AA to LHR and other airlines aren't likely to start those particular routes.

The new protectionist congressional leadership seem to be against it, but don't let a few committee chairs fool you into thinking the majority of the legislature is against the pact. Part of our system that's evolved into a two party bottleneck is that chairmanships go to more "partisan" members.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
bastew
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RE: Virgin Eyes Europe-U.S. Flights Under "open Skies"

Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:39 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
As i said in another thread, the only airline truly against this in the EU would be BA. VS benefits,

VS, along with BA is in HUGE opposition to open skies.

Their CEO, along with BA's was at the Transport Ministers select committee last week attempting to convince officials of a UK veto in the deal.
 
bmiexpat
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RE: Virgin Eyes Europe-U.S. Flights Under "open Skies"

Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:42 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
the only airline truly against this in the EU would be BA.

Given the fact that BA cannont expand a huge amount at LHR due the lack of avaiable slots, could they not follow VS's lead and start routes to the US from other European cities, maybe through the use of W flights?
 
AlanUK
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RE: Virgin Eyes Europe-U.S. Flights Under "open Skies"

Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:43 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
As i said in another thread, the only airline truly against this in the EU would be BA. VS benefits

VS wouldn't benefit! Virgin Atlantic's comments are merely there as a plan IF the open skies agreement gets the go ahead. VS, just like BA, enjoys the benefits of Bermuda II from Heathrow, which helps VS profits just as much as BA. If Virgin really wanted to start up service from Europe to the USA, they would have already done it by now, there is nothing stopping Sir Branson from starting up a new airline in each country he wants to route from!
 
bastew
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RE: Virgin Eyes Europe-U.S. Flights Under "open Skies"

Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:54 pm

Quoting Bmiexpat (Reply 4):
Given the fact that BA cannont expand a huge amount at LHR due the lack of avaiable slots, could they not follow VS's lead and start routes to the US from other European cities, maybe through the use of W flights?

I guess they could look at direct flights from other european cities but doubt they would. So much of BA's transatlantic traffic is in transit thru LHR to other destinations. And don't foget EVERY european carrier will be able to fly from any european city. So if BA decided to fly out of MXP to say JFK it could be competing with Alitalia, Virgin, Air France, Malev, Olympic, SAS the list goes on!

From todays Times on Sunday (RE Virgin):

While BA will continue to lobby ferociously against the deal, some of its allies believe the battle has already been lost.

Virgin Atlantic, previously one of the most vociferous opponents of the deal, confirmed it had begun planning to exploit it.

Virgin will start services to America from European cities, including Paris, Frankfurt and Zurich, a spokesman said. “We think open skies will happen, so we plan to use it to give customers on the Continent a choice of airlines when they fly to the US,” he explained. The company said the expansion would cost £200m and create 500 jobs.

At present, Virgin flies only from Heathrow, Gatwick and Manchester, but will be free to fly from continental hubs under the open-skies plan.

[Edited 2007-03-18 13:16:08]
 
Kevin777
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RE: Virgin Eyes Europe-U.S. Flights Under "open Skies"

Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:03 pm

Quoting TACAA320 (Thread starter):
Virgin Atlantic [VA.UL] has begun work on an aggressive plan to launch direct U.S. flights from cities across Europe

Now that would be cool.. Love VS, come to CPH and start a base! But..

Quoting AlanUK (Reply 5):
If Virgin really wanted to start up service from Europe to the USA, they would have already done it by now, there is nothing stopping Sir Branson from starting up a new airline in each country he wants to route from!

True.. The market openings can be hard to find, especially in Europe, where people can be very loyal to their flag carrier.

Quoting Bmiexpat (Reply 4):
could they not follow VS's lead and start routes to the US from other European cities, maybe through the use of W flights?

But here, VS has an advantage over BA; namely, the VS-brand, which would be much easier to transfer to other parts of Europe than BA. Also, VS is focused on long-haul, and has a beatiful strategy of catering for this market and only this - I think that would work in other places in Europe as well. Also, VS can get feed from anybody they want, BA, say out of ZRH, might have difficulties; at least it would "feel" weird to fly, say, CPH-ZRH on SK and onwards with BA to JFK.. (then the world would be upside down!..)

Kevin777  Smile
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johnnybgoode
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RE: Virgin Eyes Europe-U.S. Flights Under "open Skies"

Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:04 pm

Quoting AlanUK (Reply 5):
If Virgin really wanted to start up service from Europe to the USA, they would have already done it by now, there is nothing stopping Sir Branson from starting up a new airline in each country he wants to route from!

hadn't there once been rumors that VS would be looking into operating transatlantic flights originating in BRU? that was at a time when SN Brussels was picking up the pieces left by Sabena's demise and its longhaul network was cut slim.

i have my doubts that the big three, or for that sake, all other european network carriers, would seriously look into operating longhaul flights out of their competitors' hubs. if they did that, the competitor would follow suit and start up such services in the other airline's backyard. so to prevent that such a bloodbath, i doubt any airline would make such a move in the first place. the one airline, imho, that i could imagine doing it is indeed VS.

if anything, this open skies agreement will further propel consolidation, traffic rights wouldn't be that much a concern anymore.
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
Kevin777
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RE: Virgin Eyes Europe-U.S. Flights Under "open Skies"

Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:12 pm

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 8):
i have my doubts that the big three, or for that sake, all other european network carriers, would seriously look into operating longhaul flights out of their competitors' hubs.

Agree. Also, look at intra-European flights today. They can do whatever they want, all airlines, including the flag-carriers of the continent, but have they done anything else than staying in their own backyard? No. BA still doesn't fly CPH-ARN. LH still doesn't fly MAN-CDG. SK still doesn't fly TXL-FRA. And why should they? They would ram themselves into massive competition in a market they wouldn't know, battling the nostalgic hearts of European travellers preferring their national carrier.

Saying this.... I still believe though, that VS would be an exception to this.. Long-hauls out of Europe, from a few selected cities, yes, I could see that work.

Kevin777
"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
 
antonovman
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RE: Virgin Eyes Europe-U.S. Flights Under "open Sk

Mon Mar 19, 2007 1:42 am

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 9):
Agree. Also, look at intra-European flights today. They can do whatever they want, all airlines, including the flag-carriers of the continent, but have they done anything else than staying in their own backyard? No. BA still doesn't fly CPH-ARN. LH still doesn't fly MAN-CDG. SK still doesn't fly TXL-FRA. And why should they?

Youre forgetting the LCC , Easyjet are flying within Italy, Ryanair are doing it elsewhere. Here in the UK we have Air Berlin operating domestic flights
 
ComeAndGo
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RE: Virgin Eyes Europe-U.S. Flights Under "open Skies"

Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:50 am

Ryanair is Irish and their main operation is out of London.

They'll sit tight on their existing networks until one major airline makes the first move into a competitors market. I could see any airline moving into Italy and offering longhaul from Milan since Alitalia has failed to deliver and still sees Rome as the main attraction.
 
retrolivery
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RE: Virgin Eyes Europe-U.S. Flights Under "open Skies"

Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:58 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 1):
All is fair in love and war. Good for them. Bring on the competition. That and it gives the traveller more choice.

Right on! I totally agree. It seems like the Virgin Group has been testing a lot of waters lately when it comes to air rights (Virgin Blue between US and OZ, Virgin America in the US, and now VS between US and Europe). Bring on the competition, I say. Maybe it will inspire some of our beloved legacies to see the ante being played by some of the international carriers.
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centrair
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RE: Virgin Eyes Europe-U.S. Flights Under "open Skies"

Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:09 am

Good for them. If they can't get Virgin America off the ground, might as well bring the Virgin product to every place they can. Just out of curiousity, would this mean VS would need to get smaller planes? 787s or A350XWB-800 or even the now rumored -700?
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Eirules
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RE: Virgin Eyes Europe-U.S. Flights Under "open Skies"

Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:15 am

I think we have to be realistic about this. If Open Skies come in (and I for one hope they do) we wont suddenly see 5 extra carriers on a route currently flown by 2 or 3. Could DUB-NYC realistically sustain the likes of BA, VS, LH, AA and UA along with EI, CO and DL that currently fly it? Could CO, DL, US or NW get the slots to operate out of LHR? Is there not already enough competition on the LON-NYC route without adding another 10 daily flights operated by a mixture of US and European airlines?

Ys I think we will see some airlines start new routes that otherwise they would not have been allowed. Yes some airlines will benefit far more than others (EI, BD and CO jump to mind) but I dont think we will see the dramatic changes that some are predicting / fearing
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highflyer9790
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RE: Virgin Eyes Europe-U.S. Flights Under "open Skies"

Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:15 am

Would BOS see any changes ar additions? they switch back betwwen the A343, A346, and the 744....
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Rivet42
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RE: Virgin Eyes Europe-U.S. Flights Under "open Skies"

Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:19 am

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 8):
i have my doubts that the big three, or for that sake, all other european network carriers, would seriously look into operating longhaul flights out of their competitors' hubs. if they did that, the competitor would follow suit and start up such services in the other airline's backyard. so to prevent that such a bloodbath, i doubt any airline would make such a move in the first place. the one airline, imho, that i could imagine doing it is indeed VS.

That's a very good point - it's not in anyone's interest to kick off a predatory network war, as in the end everyone will lose profits. And on that point, BA are actually in a stronger position than most, because they were one of the first flag-carriers in Europe to go completely private, and as such, are the most robust, financially (apart from the crippling pensions deficit).

Virgin Atlantic are a bit of a special case, because they are the largest truly independent (i.e. not a former flag-carrier) full service long-haul airline in Europe, and evolved out of a commercial brand not originally associated with aviation, so yes, they are much better placed to move into other long-haul markets than BA, or any of the other former flag-carriers.

As for the no-frills operators (FR, U2, AB, etc), we already have 'Open Skies' in Europe for many years, which is how they have come into being in the first place. I don't see them being affected by any EU-US deal, as they don't (yet) operate transatlantic...

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Kevin777
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RE: Virgin Eyes Europe-U.S. Flights Under "open Skies"

Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:39 pm

Quoting Antonovman (Reply 10):
Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 9):
Agree. Also, look at intra-European flights today. They can do whatever they want, all airlines, including the flag-carriers of the continent, but have they done anything else than staying in their own backyard? No. BA still doesn't fly CPH-ARN. LH still doesn't fly MAN-CDG. SK still doesn't fly TXL-FRA. And why should they?

Youre forgetting the LCC , Easyjet are flying within Italy, Ryanair are doing it elsewhere. Here in the UK we have Air Berlin operating domestic flights

I guess I was not making myself clear; I was only talking about old flag carriers; they haven't ventured into new intra-European territory. As most long-haul carriers in Europe are flag-carriers, I think this could be indicative of the development with open skies.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 13):
Just out of curiousity, would this mean VS would need to get smaller planes? 787s

Today, ITW guesses that 787s ordered for unidentified customers are going for VS, as "they are going all-green and twin-engined" as one analyst puts it.

Kevin777  Smile
"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
 
mutu
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RE: Virgin Eyes Europe-U.S. Flights Under "open Skies"

Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:47 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
As i said in another thread, the only airline truly against this in the EU would be BA. VS benefits, BMI benefits, all the other EU airlines benefit. So if the UK tries to block it, they are doing it for Willie Walsh.

Hhmm you are on some sort of mission arent you! It is well documented that BA AND VS oppose as drafted. It is not so well documnted that both airlines expect open skies to happen. Go to www.bashareholders.co.uk and have a listen to Willie Walsh webcast at a recent investor day presentation.
Of course any business will dfend its position as far as, and for as long as it can and why not?
Anyway, what will be will be. Congress seems to have a problem with the current text, the UK government has a big problem with the US not making enough concession on foreigh ownership , at the end of the day I suspect if the UK and US are neither that happy about it then that makes a good basis for doing the deal.
On a slight aside, when discussing the LHR issue and open skies, a bit of perspective is needed. The UK is a small land mass,smaller than Florida. Some 8% of the entire county's GDP is deemed to be related to the importance of LHR. LHR is land locked and has little or no hope of any significnt expansion. A new runway or indeed a new airport seem remote given the rising tide of environmentalism in the UK. Open skies COULD result in a massive increase in US flights at the expense of slots to other destintations. That COULD harm the UK economy. To me this is the real question. IF open skies came with a gurantee of government action to build a third runway then I am all in favour. Without it,whist I still favour open skies I can understand some of the issues raised. And we frequent flyers tend tofocus only on whether it helps or hurts our favourite airline. Sadly there are bigger issues.
 
incitatus
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RE: Virgin Eyes Europe-U.S. Flights Under "open Skies"

Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:15 pm

Quoting Mutu (Reply 18):
Open skies COULD result in a massive increase in US flights at the expense of slots to other destintations. That COULD harm the UK economy.

Please explain how replacing the little plane that KLM flies to Eindhoven - 50 seats - with a large jet to New York - 250 seats, harms the UK economy.

The UK economy has been harmed for a few decades because the British government has been a pawn of British Airways. Businesses dealing in the UK have paid through the nose to fly transatlantic.
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masseybrown
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RE: Virgin Eyes Europe-U.S. Flights Under "open Skies"

Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:25 am

Quoting Mutu (Reply 18):
Some 8% of the entire county's GDP is deemed to be related to the importance of LHR. LHR is land locked and has little or no hope of any significnt expansion. A new runway or indeed a new airport seem remote given the rising tide of environmentalism in the UK.

It's hard for me to imagine a responsible movement that would value a few hectares of greenery (in the case of the runway) over 8% of a country's economy.

Wouldn't some alternative like combining Kidlington and Brize Norton accomplish more for the environment?
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: Virgin Eyes Europe-U.S. Flights Under "open Skies"

Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:46 am

VS will likely fail if they beging flights from continental Europe to the USA.....reason is quite simple, they have no customer base of loyality in continental Europe like they do in UK.......
 
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Virgin Eyes Europe-U.S. Flights Under "open Skies"

Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:22 am

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 17):
I was only talking about old flag carriers; they haven't ventured into new intra-European territory.

I can only think of one example: Malev used to fly (perhaps they do still) ATH-DUB overnight.
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commavia
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RE: Virgin Eyes Europe-U.S. Flights Under "open Skies"

Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:52 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
On our side of the pond, AA stands to lose the most

I'm not so sure about that.

United is going to be under the same downward yield pressure as AA. But unlike United, AA is going to be able to not only shift their DFW-Gatwick flights to Heathrow, but also their Raleigh flights, plus finally get antitrust immunity with British Airways after more than ten years of trying. That one shift alone -- finally getting antitrust immunity to jointly schedule and price products with BA -- is no doubt going to lead to a mountain of new revenue for both companies. United, by contrast, really has no major prospect for huge revenue growth in the market, besides finally getting to launch the Denver-Heathrow route, to offset the revenue loss from increased competition.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Virgin Eyes Europe-U.S. Flights Under "open Skies"

Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:00 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 23):
But unlike United, AA is going to be able to not only shift their DFW-Gatwick flights to Heathrow, but also their Raleigh flights, plus finally get antitrust immunity with British Airways after more than ten years of trying. That one shift alone -- finally getting antitrust immunity to jointly schedule and price products with BA -- is no doubt going to lead to a mountain of new revenue for both companies.

I don't think ATI is an automatic thing even with open skies. I also think AA might see a significant weakening of their position in the NYC market over time to airlines with real NYC hubs.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 23):
United, by contrast, really has no major prospect for huge revenue growth in the market, besides finally getting to launch the Denver-Heathrow route, to offset the revenue loss from increased competition.

I think 5th freedom flights ex-LHR to beyond Europe are potentially valuable, particularly to India, for serving more price conscious US-India customers. And perhaps LHR can become more of a Star hub if BMI is unshackled.
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commavia
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RE: Virgin Eyes Europe-U.S. Flights Under "open Skies"

Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:20 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 24):
I don't think ATI is an automatic thing even with open skies.

Perhaps not automatic, but I really don't see the U.S. government putting up much of a fight if Heathrow is opened up. The huge roadblock repeatedly put up by the U.S. (and U.K.) regulatorys dating back to 1996 over the AA-BA ATI application was that the two would dominate the Heathrow market without the prospect of competition from new U.S. or U.K. entrants. This deal would change that. Sure, AA and BA cumulatively would still dominate the U.S.-London market, but there would now be nothing stopping any other airline from competing with them beyond those competitors' desire and ability to secure slots, just as is the case in many, many other European hub markets that are far more dominated by their hub carriers than Heathrow is by BA.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 24):
I also think AA might see a significant weakening of their position in the NYC market over time to airlines with real NYC hubs.

Possible, but I don't see it. Delta's entry into the JFK-Heathrow market would definitely be a hit for AA, but I think AA would do fine long-term. AA still has the second-largest frequent flyer and corporate contract presence in New York, and that alone could probably sustain its New York-London flying for years to come. In addition, AA isn't exactly a weak competitor in New York to begin with, and has a huge presence in the local market. Plus, if AA were able to coordinate its schedule and revenue with BA, the two airlines' combined market power on the JFK-Heathrow route would be more than enough to combat Delta or any other entrant.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 24):
I think 5th freedom flights ex-LHR to beyond Europe are potentially valuable, particularly to India, for serving more price conscious US-India customers.

True, but on a high-cost, ultra-long route like that, are "price conscious US-India customers" really the ones United is after? Does United really want to have to discount their U.S.-India itineraries because they require a Heathrow stop, just to pry passengers away from the higher-yielding nonstops of AA, Continental and Delta? I doubt it.

One-stop U.S.-India flights are pretty much useless nowadays. The market has moved on, just as it largely has with China. Ten years ago, just about the only way to get from the U.S. to China on a U.S. carrier was going one-stop via Tokyo. Today, Northwest is still serving China via Tokyo, but United's four (soon to be five) daily flights have all gone nonstop, plus we now have nonstop competition in the U.S.-China market from AA and Continental. Similarly, ten years ago, there was no such thing as a nonstop U.S.-India flight. Everything went via London, Paris, Frankfurt, etc. Today, Continental, American and Delta are cleaning up on their U.S.-India nonstops, with more flights likely to come, and their creation of this new market has rendered one-stops via Heathrow or anywhere else uncompetitive.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 24):
And perhaps LHR can become more of a Star hub if BMI is unshackled.

Perhaps, although bmi is going to be in an interesting position if (or when) this deal goes through. Sure, they will no doubt use some of their Heathrow slots to launch more flights to the U.S., but at the expense -- no doubt -- of regional flights. I suspect they would sacrafice flights to the continent (what little is left from Heathrow) before flights within the U.K., as I doubt they'd want to risk any political fallout from canning smaller, lesser-served U.K. regions cities or larger cities in the U.K. that would be left completely to BA's graces if not for bmi's competition (like MAN, GLA, EDI, etc.). In addition, bmi's place in Star is now basically as a feeder for the north of the U.K., and not for Europe, so preserving bmi flying from Heathrow to U.K. markets is likely more important. However, on the flip side, bmi is now in the position to make boatloads of cash if they decide to auction off some of their peak-period slots at Heathrow. If Heathrow is opened up, the price for a runway slot between 0600 and 1100 is probably going to trip immediately, and bmi is no doubt going to have to weigh the huge amounts of cash U.S. airlines would likely be willing to drop for those slots.
 
Humberside
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RE: Virgin Eyes Europe-U.S. Flights Under "open Skies"

Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:08 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 19):
Quoting Mutu (Reply 18):
Open skies COULD result in a massive increase in US flights at the expense of slots to other destintations. That COULD harm the UK economy.

Please explain how replacing the little plane that KLM flies to Eindhoven - 50 seats - with a large jet to New York - 250 seats, harms the UK economy.

KLM axing EIN wouldnt affect the UK economy but bmi axing MME for example would significantly harm the North East economy. Very little effect on the wider UK economy but further increasing the North-South divide
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atmx2000
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RE: Virgin Eyes Europe-U.S. Flights Under "open Skies"

Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:33 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 25):
AA still has the second-largest frequent flyer and corporate contract presence in New York, and that alone could probably sustain its New York-London flying for years to come. In addition, AA isn't exactly a weak competitor in New York to begin with, and has a huge presence in the local market. Plus, if AA were able to coordinate its schedule and revenue with BA, the two airlines' combined market power on the JFK-Heathrow route would be more than enough to combat Delta or any other entrant.

But isn't that based more on the extent of their international flights out of JFK and their routes to LHR. When they lose the distinction of being the biggest US airline with LHR service out of NYC, their weakness in domestic JFK routes may become a big deal. Maybe open skies will force them to look at JetBlue.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 25):
True, but on a high-cost, ultra-long route like that, are "price conscious US-India customers" really the ones United is after? Does United really want to have to discount their U.S.-India itineraries because they require a Heathrow stop, just to pry passengers away from the higher-yielding nonstops of AA, Continental and Delta? I doubt it.

Well I said "more price conscious." Obviously a lot of premium customers will take nonstops, particularly if they avoid a connecting flight somewhere. But the nonstops only serve two Indian cities from two US cities. There are markets that aren't necessarily viable direct routes. Those include routes between more southern US cities and/or more southern Indian cities that are beyond current aircraft capabilities, or routes where sufficient demand does not exist for a direct flight. But with a US-UK-India routing they can serve passengers on either leg ending in the UK, taking advantage of premium traffic on those legs.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 25):
In addition, bmi's place in Star is now basically as a feeder for the north of the U.K., and not for Europe, so preserving bmi flying from Heathrow to U.K. markets is likely more important. However, on the flip side, bmi is now in the position to make boatloads of cash if they decide to auction off some of their peak-period slots at Heathrow

But that has a lot to do with BMI's limited access to the US under Bermuda II. They can provide Star with a viable NYC-LHR link.
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Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos