PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 7453
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RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:08 am

Interesting thread here.......

While I agree that prices in/out of CVG on DL are out of whack, there are several interesting issues that come into play.

-DL complete lack of domestic mainline aircraft & "large RJ's"
-DL priority to shore up ATL, JFK, SLC, and to a lesser extent LAX and the expense of CVG in regards to allocating aircraft/resources/marketing
-Irrational pricing under "Simplifares" that caused people to expect unreasonably low fares, inflated CVG traffic, and also somewhat of overexpansion at CVG, with too much redundancy to ATL flying
-Fundamental shift in DL's market strategy
-Changing dynamics at ATL, with what has now become a mega-hub, rendering some CVG flying to be redundant
-Focus on higher-yielding traffic system wide, opposed to the lower-yield connecting traffic
-DL reinventing itself, not trying to be everything to everyone

Lets face it, the nature of the industry in the late -90's through mid-2001, is not anything like how it currently is today. Comparisons to back then, are not relevant. The strategies of the legacy airlines have changed, the strategies of the LCC's have changed, the preferences of the customer of changed, and the role of CVG in the DL system has completely changed. I could go on at length about this, but people need to draw their own conclusions. DL is not the same DL it was 6 years ago, or even 2-3 years for that matter.

Quoting B4REAL (Reply 41):
-Too many routes from CVG on DCI are all RJ for too long of a flight time non-stop to be attractive to certain customers: CVG-IAH/DFW/AUS/OKC/MSY/SAT as examples.

Again, whats the alternative....loads would be horrendous if this was on mainline equipment, let alone yields which would be even worse. The CRJ is what allows these routes to survive, with the limited O&D and redundent and better connecting opportunities at ATL.

Quoting B4REAL (Reply 41):
-Too many routes from CVG on DCI are all RJ to cities where mainline really should be served: CVG-PHL/PWM/MHT/EWR/PIT/CLT/JFK/IAD

Same as above, most of these cities couldn't cut it with mainline equipment, at least other than a handful of flights throughout the week. Besides being mediorce, redundant to ATL other than O&D, DL just doesn't have the aircraft to allocate to these questionable routes, even if they wanted to.

I'm going to side with the its right-sized crowd, although I agree pricing is out of whack. Again going back to my point that the nature of the business has changed, and there are a lot of other alternatives out there. Plus DL has realized they don't need to be everything to everyone.

Sounds like the folks of CVG, CLE, & PIT should all band together on this issue.....

[Edited 2007-03-21 04:17:09]
 
deltajet757
Posts: 228
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 1:26 pm

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:10 am

I wish there were more flights using 757's going from SFO to CVG and vise-versa. It's almost all if not all 738's, eventhough I like that plane I still prefer a 757 for trans-con flights because not only is it my favorite plane but it is also slightly faster and a very good climber.

You can download the flight schedules PDF on DL's website:

Mac users: http://images.delta.com/delta/pdfs/flight_schedules.pdf

Windows users: http://images.delta.com/delta/pdfs/flight_schedules.pdf

(I know the links are the same but it depends what system you use. My computer happens to read both types so there you have it.)

-DeltaJet757
FLY DELTA JETS
 
HnlBoi
Posts: 128
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RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:01 pm

I noticed DL cut the CVG-HNL flight starting in June. No direct flights seem to come up.
 
jetlanta
Posts: 1657
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:35 am

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:10 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 48):
But you are missing the bigger point. DL's short-term moves to prop up CVG could have very negative long-term consequences. The short-term profits from the down-sizing of CVG could very well be setting the hub up for long-term losses.

Is DL managing CVG just to survive in the present or are they building the hub to last for the long-haul? Of course, the same question could be asked about much of DL's recent network restructuring.

Of course, but neither of us knows the answer to either question you pose. I do know that the people making the call here have a lot more data and historical perspective than either of us. They also know how CVG fits in the future DL network.

Of course, DL's current CVG strategy could be a big mistake, but the more likely answer is that it isn't. Your theory presupposes that Delta will not make any course corrections if it looks like the chain of events you predict actually start to occur. I don't think that would be the case.

And , just for the record, I also think that those out there who compare CVG to DFW are wildly off-base. Forget for a second that DFW is AA's fortress hub. Forget that it basically was Delta's fourth best East-West hub. DFW was a PERPETUAL money loser, even in good times. CVG has always performed better than DFW. Except for the period since of about 2001-2005, CVG has been the #1 or #2 most profitable hub for Delta. Heck, even during much of that period...though it should probably be described differently than "profitability".  Smile
 
floridaflyboy
Posts: 1592
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:26 pm

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:22 pm

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 3):
In addition, the perception that an LCC would do well is by no means a fact. Clearly, if any LCC thought they could go into CVG and be successful, they would have done it by now. They have invaded every single other hub, why not CVG? Perhaps the potential reward is not worth the heavy risk.

I beg to differ. I believe that if done right, an LCC could do quite well in CVG. There are no facts out there that would indicate otherwise, unless I'm missing something.

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 6):
The currently vacant T1 is perfect to attract a new carrier.

I agree. That would work very well for an LCC.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 7):
think that CVG would do much better in it's O&D numbers if WN did in fact come in and set up shop.

Yeah, I think there's an untapped O & D market in CVG that just needs to be stimulated.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 18):
DHL suddenly said "oops, we're taking over ABX Air and their ILG facility, looks like you have just wasted hundreds of millions of dollars on a facility that no one will use, well, tough luck CVG" and left for ILG.

Well, not quite. DHL took over Airborne Freight Corporation (Airborne Express), not ABX Air. They did however, get the ILN (ILN is the code for Wilmington, not ILG) airpark. Then, they decided to consolidate the operations of ABX Air and Astar Air Cargo at ILN because it was more cost-effective. The basic premise of what you're saying is correct, just a few minor errors in the details.
Good goes around!
 
nickstyro
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:50 pm

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:39 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 18):
Which is the point Skyymaster made. CVG build this large new sorting facility just for DHL, and what happened a few months before the new facility opened? DHL suddenly said "oops, we're taking over ABX Air and their ILG facility, looks like you have just wasted hundreds of millions of dollars on a facility that no one will use, well, tough luck CVG" and left for ILG.

DHL operated out of its new facility for almost 2 years before moveing to willmington, however they still use it for AC MX and for contracted flights for the government. Actually it was not a total loss as the airport uses the ramp as a giant De ice pad during winter ops.

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 6):
The currently vacant T1 is perfect to attract a new carrier. CVG O&D traffic is used to regional equipment, so I'd think a JetBlue 190 would be seen as a major upgrade. It's not fancy, but it could be a good starting point for a CVG operation.

T1 is now vacant due to its future destruction. Although FedEx uses the ramp space around T1, most of the few jetways were removed about 3 weeks ago. Last I heard, they were going to tear down T1,T2, and the old old DHL facility to make room for a new terminal.
 
panamair
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RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:56 pm

Quoting Floridaflyboy (Reply 54):
I beg to differ. I believe that if done right, an LCC could do quite well in CVG. There are no facts out there that would indicate otherwise, unless I'm missing something.

The 'facts' are that to date, not a single LCC (F9, FL, B6, WN) has entered CVG. CVG has been open for LCC business for a long time. LCCs have entered many Midwestern cities (comparable in size) to CVG and yet not a single one of these growth-hungry carriers has chosen to enter CVG....that should speak volumes...
 
LCFreeman49
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RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:06 pm

I am a native of Cincinnati, having lived there from 1970 to 1989 when I left for college in Atlanta at Emory. I had not been back for three years and then had the opportunity to get up there from South Florida this past weekend. I was amazed at what I was seeing. The airport looks like it is RJ hell.

I don't understand why the airport is not doing anything they can to attract an LCC. I am shocked that the State of Kentucky is not willing to subsidize an LCC to come in and set up shop.

I remember the days of Sabena and Air France coming in, now it is a ghost town in someways.

Just my two cents.
Thanks For Flying with Delta....
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:40 pm

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 53):
Your theory presupposes that Delta will not make any course corrections if it looks like the chain of events you predict actually start to occur. I don't think that would be the case.

The problem is that I don't see any good course corrections for DL to make and I don't think DL does either. This is why DL has been shrinking CVG....it's the only option they have given all the constraints (low O+D, limited aircraft deliveries, etc).
 
skibum9
Topic Author
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RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:48 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 58):
The problem is that I don't see any good course corrections for DL to make and I don't think DL does either. This is why DL has been shrinking CVG....it's the only option they have given all the constraints (low O+D, limited aircraft deliveries, etc).

So back to the question that no one has been able to answer. How much has DL really shrunk CVG since they announced the downsizing or rightsizing? And why are they saying that they may have cut it too much if it is their only option?
Tailwinds!!!
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:50 pm

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 59):
How much has DL really shrunk CVG since they announced the downsizing or rightsizing?

From the estimates I have seen, the actual capacity cut is close to about 40%. This is capacity (number of seats), not number of flights. I think the expectation is another 3-5% cut this year, though that could change.
 
skibum9
Topic Author
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RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:17 pm

I figured it had to be getting close to a 50% cut. I am really surprised that most of the international flights have not been impacted by the cuts. With all the international expansion out of ATL and JFK and the large cuts at CVG, it would be a logical conclusion that they could move the international connection traffic to ATL or JFK, and use the planes from CVG to fuel more international growth. The O&D alone at CVG can't sustain these flights.

The thing I can't figure out is why they would admit that they may have cut too much to the news media, while intending further cuts?
Tailwinds!!!
 
JetBlueGuy2006
Posts: 1482
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:38 am

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:52 pm

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 6):
CVG O&D traffic is used to regional equipment, so I'd think a JetBlue 190 would be seen as a major upgrade. It's not fancy, but it could be a good starting point for a CVG operation.

Is it just me, or does this possibly seem like the perfect opprotunity for a carrier like jetBlue to open up a Midwestern Focus City? They could base a good chunk of the E-190 fleet and some A320s, and serve the midwest. You could open up places like DAY, FNT, DTW, STL, MCI with the E-190's, connect them through CVG to Florida Destinations, out to JFK/LGA/IAD and maybe a couple out west like LAS and California.

I think this might be an answer for jetBlue's "lack" (IMHO) of ops in the midwest which so many of us would like.
Home Airport: Capital Region International Airport (KLAN)
 
SkyyMaster
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RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:18 pm

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 61):
The thing I can't figure out is why they would admit that they may have cut too much to the news media, while intending further cuts?

I think an earlier poster may have nailed it. The situation with CVG is beginning to look alot like DFW when DL started pulling back most of it's mainline and added a bazillion RJ flights. And for all those merger conspiracy theorists, the much fantasized merger with NW would really make CVG redundant given it's proximity to DTW. (and no, I don't think a merger is going to happen, at least in the near term). I do think CVG will at best become an RJ-centric focus city .
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:19 pm

Quoting JetBlueGuy2006 (Reply 62):
You could open up places like DAY, FNT, DTW, STL, MCI with the E-190's, connect them through CVG to Florida Destinations, out to JFK/LGA/IAD and maybe a couple out west like LAS and California.

A lot of this would be low-yield, connection, garbage-type flying, efffectively competing with AirTran, and to a lesser extent Southwest & Spirit, plus everyone else who offers non-stops out of these markets. This would be a suicidal move on B6's part, with these low-yield type of flights, plus the fight that DL would give toward entrenched O&D.

Any LCC that would enter CVG would be there to serve the CVG area, not attempt to operate a connecting style of operation. Remember, the LCC's need to generate revenue, such as much, if not more so than the legacies. They can't just live off off $150 r/t to Florida. At least the legacy's can make up for it with $1200 r/t in coach to Europe, let alone $3500 biz class tickets.

So in short, B6 would be dumb to try to compete with FNT/DTW-CVG-Florida flights, when already, there are already many lower-cost (including NW & DL with their price matching out of these markets) to Florida, with many nonstop options.
 
jetlanta
Posts: 1657
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:35 am

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:24 pm

Quoting Panamair (Reply 56):
Quoting Floridaflyboy (Reply 54):
I beg to differ. I believe that if done right, an LCC could do quite well in CVG. There are no facts out there that would indicate otherwise, unless I'm missing something.

The 'facts' are that to date, not a single LCC (F9, FL, B6, WN) has entered CVG. CVG has been open for LCC business for a long time. LCCs have entered many Midwestern cities (comparable in size) to CVG and yet not a single one of these growth-hungry carriers has chosen to enter CVG....that should speak volumes...

Thanks. I feel like I've been a lonely voice of reality!

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 59):
So back to the question that no one has been able to answer. How much has DL really shrunk CVG since they announced the downsizing or rightsizing? And why are they saying that they may have cut it too much if it is their only option?

DL CVG Daily Departures:

March 2000: 505
March 2007: 383 Down 24%

DL CVG Daily Seats:

March 2000: 46,993
March 2007: 26,492 Down 44%

DL CVG Daily ASM's

March 2000: 32.8M
March 2007: 20.5M Down 38%

While a significant percentage of seats has been removed, it has been primarily a result of the down-gauging of equipment. Departures are down only 24%, indicating that hub connectivity is still in tact.

If you look at the past year, however, you can see the trend has slowed considerably...

Departures -7%
Seats -4%
ASM's - 18%

But actually, nearly all of the ASM and seat reduction in the March 2006 vs. March 2007 schedule is related to AMS and FCO. Both markets operated in 2006, but moved to seasonal this year.


For further reference, I've ranked CVG in departures and seats amongst U.S. airports (March 2007):

Departures:

1. ATL DL 936
2. DFW AA 773
3. IAH CO 731
4. ORD UA 632
5. CLT US 547
6. ORD AA 499
7. DTW NW 487
8. MSP NW 461
9. DEN UA 447
10. PHL US 433
11. EWR CO 414
12. CVG DL 383
13. SLC DL 328
14. IAD UA 316
15. PHX US 284
16. SEA AS 263
17. SFO UA 258
18. MIA AA 249
19. LAX UA 316
20. ATL FL 230
21. LAS WN 223
22. MEM NW 221
23. CLE CO 218
...
29. STL AA 178
30. JFK B6 175
31. JFK DL 173
35. PIT US 144

Daily Seats:
1. ATL DL 110,990
2. DFW AA 83,250
3. ORD UA 64,830
4. IAH CO 63,635
5. CLT US 51,599
6. MSP NW 50,300
7. DTW NW 49,656
8. ORD AA 47,891
9. DEN UA 46,353
10. EWR CO 45,353
11. MIA AA 38,818
12. PHL US 37,566
13. PHX US 31,362
14. LAS WN 30,438
15. SFO UA 30,332
16. IAD UA 30,181
17. MDW WN 28,948
18. ATL FL 28,504
19. PHX WN 27,154
20. SLC DL 26,963
21. CVG DL 26,492
22. SEA AS 25,470
23. JFK B6 24,349
24. LAX UA 23,134
...
26. DEN F9 19,132
29. JFK DL 17,259
31. MEM NW 16,537
38. CLE CO 13,294
39. STL AA 12,660
52. PIT US 9,632

Despite the reductions at CVG, it still has a size and scope comparable to most other major hubs. With no cuts, CVG would have been the #9 hub in the country in 2007, ahead of UA in DEN, US in PHL, AA in MIA, etc... It is easy to see that the hub may have been too big for its own good. There is simply not enough local O&D market available to support the economics of a hub that size. Even after the cuts, CVG still is a major connecting hub, but one that is sized properly for the local market. This is no PIT or STL situation.
 
jetlanta
Posts: 1657
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:35 am

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:37 pm

Quoting JetBlueGuy2006 (Reply 62):
Is it just me, or does this possibly seem like the perfect opprotunity for a carrier like jetBlue to open up a Midwestern Focus City?

It's just you. They are hesitant about even going into STL at this point, much less CVG. PIT has been a real winner for them, for that matter. (that is sarcasm, forgive me)
 
avconsultant
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RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:38 pm

Quoting Floridaflyboy (Reply 54):
I beg to differ. I believe that if done right, an LCC could do quite well in CVG. There are no facts out there that would indicate otherwise, unless I'm missing something.

CVG does not have the O&D traffic to warrant multiple carriers on same lanes of service. I do not have access, but someone on here could confirm, I think the number of the DL medallions in CVG would be overwhelming.
 
floridaflyboy
Posts: 1592
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:26 pm

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:41 am

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 67):
CVG does not have the O&D traffic to warrant multiple carriers on same lanes of service. I do not have access, but someone on here could confirm, I think the number of the DL medallions in CVG would be overwhelming.

They may not right now, but you have to consider how many more people might fly if the fares were lower. That almost always has some effect (i.e. the southwest effect). I recognize the fact that CVG would never be on any low-coster's list of the most-profitable routes, but that DOES NOT mean that they could not make money there all the same.
Good goes around!
 
avconsultant
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:18 am

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:33 am

Quoting Floridaflyboy (Reply 68):
They may not right now, but you have to consider how many more people might fly if the fares were lower

I believe the number of pax at CVG would increase, but not enough to support a LCC or DL. The metropolitain population of Cincinnati is retrenching. The 2005 mini census indicated a 20-somthing % decline. Cincinnati is faced with more homes for sale and rent (including apt.) than people. Cincinnati is not the city it once was. My information comes from a local radio station on XM WLW. The DJ, Bill Cunningham, is critical of Cinci decline blaming Econ. Development, Mayor and Council Members. When DL announced the CVG cutbacks, they referenced a drop in local demand and the need for efficiency in connecting pax. For example, DL only operates 7 flights (ATL, ORD, CLE, SLC, LGA, BOS, DTW & IND) from CVG prior to 8 am. Prior to the first DL departure from CVG, 7 Legacy carriers depart. Only 4 of the first 14 pax departure are mainline aircraft. The local demand is significantly less than a CLE, PIT or STL (comparable hubs).

As discussed, CVG is a critical financial artery for DL's viability and any threat on CVG would be met agressively. DL would match fares, offer incentives (triple mileage) and possibly add seats. The LCC's recognize this.

If the local demand could support a LCC, the LCC would have to be willing to endure losses in the market for an extended period of time. Frankly, there are many other markets with great benefits requiring less maintenace (i.e. advertising & brand recognition) than CVG.

Outside of airport subsidies, there are no incentives for LCC to enter the CVG market. They are well established in surrounding airports.

I think had DL established JFK earlier when ATL was building up, CVG would have been on the chopping block. ATL serves all markets served by CVG. I have nothing against CVG, I think it''s the nicest facility of DL's hubs.
 
skibum9
Topic Author
Posts: 862
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 1:13 pm

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:33 am

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 65):
There is simply not enough local O&D market available to support the economics of a hub that size. Even after the cuts, CVG still is a major connecting hub, but one that is sized properly for the local market.

I agree that CVG was too big for the market, however, with all due respect, by anchoring your statement on the local available O&D market is not correct. While you did a great analysis, it does not address the 20% of O&D that DL is pushing away with its absurd pricing. And as others have pointed out, more and more of that O&D is leaking away every day. Even major corporations are telling their employees to use other airports for business travel now. So as this cycle continues, the ratio of O&D to connection keeps lowering and DL cuts more to address it to keep the focus on O&D. So to say that it is properly sized for the local market is an incorrect as it is a moving target. Plus, DL has even said that they have cut too much, so how can you contradict what they are saying with saying it is properly sized?
Tailwinds!!!
 
floridaflyboy
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Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:26 pm

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:45 am

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 69):
If the local demand could support a LCC, the LCC would have to be willing to endure losses in the market for an extended period of time. Frankly, there are many other markets with great benefits requiring less maintenace (i.e. advertising & brand recognition) than CVG.

I guess I must respectfully disagree. I know the statistics you mention, and I know they are not promising. However, my opinion still stands that the LCC's aren't serving Cincinnati because there are more profitable routes elsewhere, not because CVG could not be a profitable operation.
Good goes around!
 
avconsultant
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:18 am

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:00 am

Quoting Floridaflyboy (Reply 71):
However, my opinion still stands that the LCC's aren't serving Cincinnati because there are more profitable routes elsewhere,

What is there to disagree on, that was part of my point.  Smile
 
floridaflyboy
Posts: 1592
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:26 pm

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:33 am

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 72):
What is there to disagree on, that was part of my point.

Oh, oops. I guess I misunderstood. sorry  Smile
Good goes around!
 
steeler83
Posts: 7678
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:57 am

Wow, that was a lot of talk about CVG with comparisons made between PIT, CLE, and STL, and I hope that CVG does not become another PIT or STL. When Sea-Gul dropped PIT of its hub status, we all thought it was the biggest abomination in the industry. Sorry to go off on a tangent, but I really am not as upset as I was that US dropped the hub there. (Of course, it wouldn't have killed the seagul if he would have just been honest that PIT was going to lose the hub anyway because of low demand and the fact that costs were high.) US had the highest costs in the industry, and PIT was supremely expensive to hub out of. It is still expensive to op out of PIT, but not nearly as it was a few years ago. Because of those costs, PIT drove away its O&D; lots of people would drive to CLE or CMH, YNG, CAK, wherever to get a much cheaper fare...

On the topic of costs, and back on topic with this thread, I was a bit shocked that CVG had inexpensive fees, rent fees, etc. Yet, DL still charges arms and legs for pax wishing to use the facility. If the costs are not that high, then what is with the unreasonable fares? That is what I don't understand...

Am I also to understand that Cincinnati's MSA population is dropping considerably? I know Pittsburgh's MSA pop was dropping as well, as more and more people flee the region, especially from the city itself. Am I to believe that Cincy is losing more people than Pittsburgh? What is Cleveland looking like, aren't they gaining MSA population?

I hope these statements have not strayed too far from the topic. I am trying to use my knowledge of my own hometown and compare that to another city in a similar pickle...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:02 pm




Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 74):
If the costs are not that high, then what is with the unreasonable fares? That is what I don't understand...

DL does it because they think they can get away with it. The mass exodus of travelers to DAY, LEX, CMH, etc is slowly proving DL wrong.


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
steeler83
Posts: 7678
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:12 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 75):
DL does it because they think they can get away with it. The mass exodus of travelers to DAY, LEX, CMH, etc is slowly proving DL wrong.

I hope DL eventually wakes up!!
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
wukka
Posts: 884
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:08 pm

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:02 pm

Quoting LCFreeman49 (Reply 57):
State of Kentucky

Nitpicky follows: KY is one of the few Commonwealths, and not a State.  Big grin

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 75):
DL does it because they think they can get away with it. The mass exodus of travelers to DAY, LEX, CMH, etc is slowly proving DL wrong.

Sing it, preacherman! I've said the same about CVG for quite some time, and generally get flamed for it.

That said, my upcoming flight to LAS on DL was quoted at $425+ out of CVG and somewhere around $280 if I "connect" through CVG from DAY. I'm right off of the 275 loop anyhow, so you can probably guess which flight I chose.

Yup, the AirTran flight out of DAY... it was $260, and more convenient timing than the DL flight. Sad.

I've got a stash of SkyMiles that blackouts from CVG prevent me from using and whatnot... I used to be loyal to DL, but all of my travel (which used to be more often than it is now) was on my own dime, and those dimes are getting harder to come by.

CVG can be a great place, but not so much if you're looking to fly without someone else footing the bill.
We can agree to disagree.
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:24 pm




Quoting Wukka (Reply 77):
That said, my upcoming flight to LAS on DL was quoted at $425+ out of CVG and somewhere around $280 if I "connect" through CVG from DAY. I'm right off of the 275 loop anyhow, so you can probably guess which flight I chose.

I hear you. I live just a few miles north of 275 by 75. Although I have to drive about 9 miles further to DAY, the lower fares, lower parking fees, and more convenient layout make it well worth the drive. In fact, because of downtown Cincinnati traffic, the longer drive to DAY is in fact usually faster.  yes 

I talk to/meet a lot of people every day, and whenever the subject comes up, people invariably echo our sentiments. People are getting very fed up with DL's pricing at CVG. Slowly but surely, they're seeking out alternatives....much more so now than even a couple of years ago.

I think Skymiles Amex cards are responsible for the majority of those still flying out of CVG. People have Skymiles built up from the past several years of CVG/DL travel, and they feel locked in to that travel option. As DL continues to gouge the traveling public, an increasing number of people will start to explore alternative FF programs, and will jump ship to more reasonably-priced airports and airlines.


2H4


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LCFreeman49
Posts: 100
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:36 am

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:31 pm

I was wondering recently, what would happen if Cincinnati loses the hub? Will someone come in or will it end up forcing the flying public to connect? I think it is by far the nicest of the Delta Facilities in the system, but it is under utilized.

CVG reminds me of Dayton Internationational Airport. Back in the day Piedmont Airlines ran a hub there. I think at it's high point, Dayton had 5 million passengers travel in and out. Now it is a ghost town. Will this be Cincinnati?

The airport has to be hurting, they lost DHL, Delta cut back, they need to something.

I would love to see Jet Blue set up an operation there.
Thanks For Flying with Delta....
 
wukka
Posts: 884
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:08 pm

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:58 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 78):
In fact, because of downtown Cincinnati traffic, the longer drive to DAY is in fact usually faster. yes

Yes sir! The road construction on 75 was a pain for a while, but now that it's settled a bit, it's a no-brainer.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 78):
People have Skymiles built up from the past several years of CVG/DL travel, and they feel locked in to that travel option.

I did that for years, sadly. Now that I don't fly for business as much, and more for recreation where convenience isn't so much a factor, that opinion has changed dramatically. Strangely enough, after I derailed my "gotta' get my miles" mentality, many of the times out of DAY are actually *more* convenient, and I can buy 2 or 3 times the domestic flights out of DAY for the cost of a single flight out of CVG... not only that, but depending on the time of year, European flights as well (connecting through CVG, of course).

Quoting LCFreeman49 (Reply 79):
Now it is a ghost town.

Really? I find it convenient, reasonable, and well populated most of the time. I have yet to see it as a "ghost town". Downtown Dayton, yes... the airport? Nah... and it's got to be growing because of people like myself and 2H4 that are cranky about what we get out of CVG.
We can agree to disagree.
 
avconsultant
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:18 am

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:38 pm

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 74):
Am I also to understand that Cincinnati's MSA population is dropping considerably? I know Pittsburgh's MSA pop was dropping as well, as more and more people flee the region, especially from the city itself. Am I to believe that Cincy is losing more people than Pittsburgh? What is Cleveland looking like, aren't they gaining MSA population?

This region of the country is slowly migrating south. According to the 2000 census, Georgia, SC and Tennessee (I think) gain seat in the US House of Rep. which is based on population where Penn, Ohio and Ill. lost seats. I think it was 5 seats in total with Georgia picking up 2 or 3 seats. Another conspiracy in DL & US downsizing hubs; quick someone start a new thread.  Wink

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 75):
DL does it because they think they can get away with it.

They also need to fund the losses in competing with LCC in the system and operating OH.

Quoting Wukka (Reply 77):
I've got a stash of SkyMiles that blackouts from CVG prevent me from using and whatnot...

That's crap, I would be so pissed off if I were you.  flamed 

Quoting LCFreeman49 (Reply 79):
Dayton had 5 million passengers travel in and out. Now it is a ghost town.

I'm not sure if I'd call it a ghost town. I noticed AA, DL and UA all operate mainline aircraft in addition to FL and F9. DAY appears to be thriving quite well from it's desolate days.
 
floridaflyboy
Posts: 1592
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:26 pm

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:14 am

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 81):
I'm not sure if I'd call it a ghost town. I noticed AA, DL and UA all operate mainline aircraft in addition to FL and F9. DAY appears to be thriving quite well from it's desolate days.

Exactly. At one point, DAY had its dark ages, but it's making a remarkable comeback, much to the dismay of the CVG airport board.
Good goes around!
 
steeler83
Posts: 7678
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:29 am

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 81):
Quoting Wukka (Reply 77):
I've got a stash of SkyMiles that blackouts from CVG prevent me from using and whatnot...

That's crap, I would be so pissed off if I were you.

Damn! I would be, too! I think a couple of US employees have got me into dividend miles... I would be pissed if I racked up miles for FCO, ATH, or LGW, but everything out of PHL is blacked out...

In that case, why have the bloody divident miles to begin with, if they can't even be used from the airline's major international gateway?!!!
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 7453
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:03 am

Are they really blacked out from CVG, or is it just that they offer so few award seats that they are just impossible to use?

I have never heard of an FF program that limits cities - but indirectly they can make them extremely difficult to use.

btw, Steeler83, getting FF tickets to any of those destinations other than maybe on AA during the summer is pretty much impossible, except for all the rule-buster levels.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:35 am

DL's admission that they might have cut back too much is a strong notice that it can and will add flights to CVG if it believes it needs to do so.

DL brought more air service than it could possibly imagine if DL had not made CVG a hub. Yes, it's costly and DL's pulldown of capacity gives them even more leverage to raise prices. But that doesn't mean that DL will sit by placidly and let someon else move into CVG if DL's hub is threatened; DL has the lowest cost structure among the network carriers and has the costs and balance sheet to fight. CVG still generates alot of revenue for DL in markets where it counts and provides a necessary part of DL's network, including 5 transatlantic flights.

Longer term, DL probably will not keep CVG at its present size if it merges with any other carrier - which is probably likely 5 years down the road. DL is making CVG work for now. However, if CVG thinks they would benefit by bringing in an LFC, they will quickly find all of those nonstops to dozens of cities will evaporate as soon as DL finds a reasonable alternative to replace CVG as a hub. Until then, DL will fight and CVG residents will probably pay more than they want to for air travel. So it's a choice - lots of destinations for a high price or few destinations but at a low price.
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:42 am



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 85):
CVG residents will probably pay more than they want to for air travel.

Fewer and fewer will, though, with DAY, CMH, and LEX offering more sensible fares.

CVG residents are sick of the high fares, and an increasing number of us are refusing to put up with it any longer.


2H4




[Edited 2007-03-23 00:46:49]
Intentionally Left Blank
 
skibum9
Topic Author
Posts: 862
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 1:13 pm

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:46 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 84):
Are they really blacked out from CVG, or is it just that they offer so few award seats that they are just impossible to use?

The SkySaver tickets are very hard to find out of CVG. However you can get SkyChoice pretty easily if you want to spend 50K. But I understand that this is pretty much the way it is throughout DL's system.
Tailwinds!!!
 
steeler83
Posts: 7678
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:46 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 84):
btw, Steeler83, getting FF tickets to any of those destinations other than maybe on AA during the summer is pretty much impossible, except for all the rule-buster levels.

Man, so much for those frequent flyer programs then... Especially when I never even set foot on an AA plane...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
CIDFlyer
Posts: 2119
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:19 am

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:42 am

Quoting LCFreeman49 (Reply 57):
I remember the days of Sabena and Air France coming in, now it is a ghost town in someways.

Would DL ever consider starting to dock some of the CRJ's on the A and B concourses to get more utilization out of them and close down C? Concourse C was ahead of its time back in the day, but now it seems to show its age when compared to NWAirlink concourse at DTW or American Eagle's terminals at ORD and DFW. Concourse B however is very spacious and has lots of amenities. With the amount of RJ traffic there I would think it would be of great beneift to use more jet bridge boarding.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14176
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:53 am

Quoting CIDflyer (Reply 89):
Would DL ever consider starting to dock some of the CRJ's on the A and B concourses to get more utilization out of them and close down C?

I'm not certain A and B have the capacity to do this. Even after the cuts, C is pretty busy for much of the day.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
nickstyro
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:50 pm

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Fri Mar 23, 2007 10:30 am

Quoting CIDflyer (Reply 89):
Would DL ever consider starting to dock some of the CRJ's on the A and B concourses to get more utilization out of them and close down C? Concourse C was ahead of its time back in the day, but now it seems to show its age when compared to NWAirlink concourse at DTW or American Eagle's terminals at ORD and DFW. Concourse B however is very spacious and has lots of amenities. With the amount of RJ traffic there I would think it would be of great beneift to use more jet bridge boarding.

You have to remember that C has 40 gates for CRJs 12 of which are sized for CR7s. A is now nothing but RJs, with nothing larger than a E70 parking there. Having said that, the jetways at A can not be lowered enough to reach an RJ so they attached stairs to them that lead down to ramp level.
 
floridaflyboy
Posts: 1592
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:26 pm

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:36 pm

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 87):
The SkySaver tickets are very hard to find out of CVG. However you can get SkyChoice pretty easily if you want to spend 50K. But I understand that this is pretty much the way it is throughout DL's system.

I agree, but just an observation, I've noticed recently that it seems easier to find skysaver tickets. Can someone tell me if they increased the number available or if it is just coincidence that I've found so many of them.
Good goes around!
 
wukka
Posts: 884
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:08 pm

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:54 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 84):
or is it just that they offer so few award seats that they are just impossible to use?

I think that's it. It sure would be nice to know from someone on the inside when this stuff is available. Like I said, I'm pretty flexible nowadays!  Smile

Quoting Floridaflyboy (Reply 92):
I agree, but just an observation, I've noticed recently that it seems easier to find skysaver tickets.

Good to know! Maybe I'll look at trying to cash some of these miles out of CVG again. Thanks for the heads-up!
We can agree to disagree.
 
floridaflyboy
Posts: 1592
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:26 pm

RE: DL May Have Cut CVG Too Much

Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:59 pm

Quoting Wukka (Reply 93):
Good to know! Maybe I'll look at trying to cash some of these miles out of CVG again. Thanks for the heads-up!

Basically, I could never find skysaver both directions before, but since they added the flexible dates option, I've been able to get three different skysaver tickets actually on the dates I want to travel anyway. Maybe coincidence, but worth a try. Plus, I'm traveling out of a DL Connection only city, which are well known for having very few reward seats.
Good goes around!

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