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CF-CPI
Topic Author
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Caravelle Cabin Configurations

Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:21 am

The early Caravelles have a nice clean cabin architecture as evidenced here with SAS and Alitalia:


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Photo © Nicola Pedde



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Photo © Ola Carlsson



It appears that Alitalia was operating them in an all-F configuration (4-across throughout). Can anyone confirm this, or was this display aircraft simply rigged up to appear this way?

Also, are the SAS seats shown here the First Class ones?

Overall, my impression is that the seat pairs are fairly narrow for a premium service. Does anyone know the width of these doubles? (The 767 at 6-across has a 48"-49" double, and these Caravelle doubles look even narrower).

Regardless of the seats, it must have been fun to fly these around Europe back in the day.
 
BCAL
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RE: Caravelle Cabin Configurations

Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:40 am

Quoting CF-CPI (Thread starter):
It appears that Alitalia was operating them in an all-F configuration (4-across throughout). Can anyone confirm this, or was this display aircraft simply rigged up to appear this way?

It is over 30 years ago but my recollection is that the Alitalia Caravelles were configured 3 + 2 in Y, so the display aircraft must simply be rigged up to appear 2 + 2.

Premium seats in the earlier Caravelles and Comets were narrow when compared with today's seats. IIRC some of the seats in First were the same as Y, save that the middle seat could be converted into an arm rest so that seats either side offered more room.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
isitsafenow
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RE: Caravelle Cabin Configurations

Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:41 am

UA in the USA had 64 seats, 2-2 seating and was considered all F class
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
philb
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RE: Caravelle Cabin Configurations

Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:42 am

Alitalia ceratinly operated Y class as did SAS, both 3+2
 
masseybrown
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RE: Caravelle Cabin Configurations

Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:44 am

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 2):
UA in the USA had 64 seats, 2-2 seating and was considered all F class

But it was a much inferior F, compare to what the DC-8's and 720's offered.
 
philb
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Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Caravelle Cabin Configurations

Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:48 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 4):
Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 2):
UA in the USA had 64 seats, 2-2 seating and was considered all F class

But it was a much inferior F, compare to what the DC-8's and 720's offered.

That's certainly true of the NYC - Chicago all gentlemen's Business Class flights but were all the UAL SE210s so configured throughout their service?
 
MD95
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RE: Caravelle Cabin Configurations

Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:15 am

I had a chance to fly AZA Caravelle from Turin to Rome a couple of times and I recall that the first row of seats were facing backward and a table was separating the first two rows. I never encountered that type of setting anymore until I flew VIP B1-11s. On the other end the SAM (Societa' Aerea Mediterranea) Caravelles was an all Y configuration.
dario
 
philb
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Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Caravelle Cabin Configurations

Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:33 am

Quoting MD95 (Reply 6):
I had a chance to fly AZA Caravelle from Turin to Rome a couple of times and I recall that the first row of seats were facing backward and a table was separating the first two rows. I never encountered that type of setting anymore until I flew VIP B1-11s. On the other end the SAM (Societa' Aerea Mediterranea) Caravelles was an all Y configuration.

BEA/BA Trident 3s had that arrangement on the starboard side only, even on the Shuttle.
 
BOAC911
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RE: Caravelle Cabin Configurations

Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:54 am

My last fight on a Caravelle was in October 1978, on AF from FRA to CDG. First class had perhaps 12 seats, and Y was in a 2 + 3 configuration. Great view from those triangle windows!!
 
SR100
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RE: Caravelle Cabin Configurations

Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:15 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 7):
BEA/BA Trident 3s had that arrangement on the starboard side only, even on the Shuttle.

In the main cabin,after door 2L, the first three three rows of seats were rear facing and on the Trident 2s, there were more, but I do not remember how many, but it was almost half of the main cabin.

Sterling's Caravelles 12 had two rear facing seats between the main front cabin door and the flight deck, were most other airlines had the left side galley and one crew jump seat.

The windows were very elegant, but since they were quite big, there was a problem from the moment airlines decided to put more seat rows into the cabin and there was no longer a window per row. You could end up with almost no window, or even with no window in the very last rear row.

There were usually two galleys, one in the front, between the flight deck and the main, manually upsilding door on the left and the service door on the right. And the second galley was in the very rear of the cabin, between the two lavatories and the center door to the aft integral stairway. FAs loved this arrangement, because both locations were outside the passenger moving area between seats and toilets.
Flown all types and variants of Airbus, Boeing, Lockheed, Bombardier, DC, Embraer, Fokker, ATR, plus BAe146-1/2/3, Britannia, Caravelle, Comet, Concord, CV440/990, M404, Herald, Avro, Trident-1/2/3, IL-18/62, SWM, Viscount, VC-10, Tu-104/134/154, YS-11
 
AY104
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RE: Caravelle Cabin Configurations

Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:43 pm

I worked for Finnair in the early 70's. We had, if I remember, 8 Super Caravelles, very comfortable to fly in. These configurations are purely from memory:
Seating was 2+2 in F, with the first 2 rows on the left only facing each other, with a table in between.
Seating was 2+3 in Y, the pairs on the left and 3's on the right. All Y seats facing forward.

Y97 all economy, used mostly for charters
F12 y72
F12 y67 In this configuration, there was a cargo compartment fitted on both sides of the
aisle, directly in front of F-class, and just aft of the front door and galley. It was only used
for cargo when required and rarely for baggage. Between Schiphol (AMS) and Gothenburg (GOT), we
used to load flowers mostly. There was often a weight & balance problem with the Caravelle being so
tail heavy, so the front cargo compartment helped quite a bit in that case. On flights where the passenger
loads were light, usually 35 and under, passengers often had to sit in the first 7 rows of Y-class for takeoff
and landing, again for weight & balance. The cargo was held in place with netting, and covered by an orange curtain.
In those days, airline personnel were absolutely not allowed to ride in F, nor any travel agent upgrades. There was
simply no question, it was almost as if there were 2 flights: 1 for F and 1 for Y. Of course, I knew most of the crews,
and there were numerous occasions where nobody was booked in F, so we got to sit up there. Very reliable plane,
rarely serious mechanical delays. The 8 caravelles were named after major Finland cities: Pori, Lahti, Jyvaskyla,
Kuopio, Turku, Tampere, Helsinki, Oulu. Interesting times those were.
Cheers,
AY104
The only thing a customer should expect for his/her loyalty is good service
 
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zippyjet
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RE: Caravelle Cabin Configurations

Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:54 pm

Checked out Le Caravelle Club site. Was that other fuselage at the fire school also a Caravelle?

Are my near sighted eyes playing tricks on me? I thought all Caravelles had the distinctive triangle windows.
Did all Caravelle windows have curtains instead of today's pull down shades?
I'm Zippyjet & I approve this message!
 
AY104
Posts: 501
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:35 am

RE: Caravelle Cabin Configurations

Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:03 pm

Quoting Zippyjet (Reply 11):
Was that other fuselage at the fire school also a Caravelle?

Looks to me more like a BAC111. I am sure all Caravelles had the triangular windows, I was on a lot of Caravelles in the early 70's, and they all had curtains.
Cheers,
AY104
The only thing a customer should expect for his/her loyalty is good service
 
philb
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RE: Caravelle Cabin Configurations

Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:43 pm

Quoting SR100 (Reply 9):
In the main cabin,after door 2L, the first three three rows of seats were rear facing and on the Trident 2s, there were more, but I do not remember how many, but it was almost half of the main cabin.

Can you remember what year(s) you came across the rear facing seats in the Trident 3 as this certainly wasn't standard in later years.

As for the Trident 2, for some weird reason in over 40 Trident trips, I only managed to fly on 1s and 3s so I can't comment from personal knowledge but I never came a cross a Trident seating plan with so many rearward facing seats.

Quoting Zippyjet (Reply 11):
Was that other fuselage at the fire school also a Caravelle?

That's definitely a BAC1-11.
 
CV990
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RE: Caravelle Cabin Configurations

Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:43 pm

Hi!

The other fuselage is indeed of a BAC 1-11 series 500. I also remember beeing on TAP Caravelle VI-R's, and I agree, those windows were very, very big!!! I really don't know the configuration of TAP Caravelles but probably would be 3-2 too. TAP used their Caravelles firstly to big airports like Orly and Heathtow, but when the 727-100 started to arrive in 1966 they started to be used in airports were the traffic was not that big and also from OPO or FAO, take a look to this picture:


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There's a TAP 707-300B probably comming from LIS and then the Caravelle from OPO.
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
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saleya22r
Posts: 175
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RE: Caravelle Cabin Configurations

Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:30 pm

Caravelle 12, the last version manufactured had a one class cabin with a 2+3 seating. Sterling, the main operator called it the "Super Star Caravelle". I remember this version was more cramped than Finnairs 10Bs(Y). I flew on both versions numerous times as Finnair used them both on domestic and European routes. As a curiosity, in the late 70s I can remember that Finnair advertised the flight from HEL to LIS via MAD as the longest scheduled route within Europe.
Finnair used Caravelles on charters as well operating as far as to the Canaries and to Eilat, Israel.
First generation Caravelles did not have reverse thrust, it was introduced with the Super Caravelle and JT8D engines.
None of the versions had leading edge devices(Correct me if I am wrong..). Landings were smooooth -air brakes/spoilers were special plates with holes..Can anyone remember if Caravelle had "normal" spoilers deployed at landing as well?
 
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OA260
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RE: Caravelle Cabin Configurations

Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:00 pm

They are lovely AC. I saw one in the airport museum in Belgrade last year in the old JAT colours. Also they have one in SKG airport.
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: Caravelle Cabin Configurations

Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:10 pm

Quoting Saleya22R (Reply 15):
Can anyone remember if Caravelle had "normal" spoilers deployed at landing as well?

I think the later versions had them, starting with the 10B

Quoting Saleya22R (Reply 15):
First generation Caravelles did not have reverse thrust, it was introduced with the Super Caravelle and JT8D engines.

Not true. United's VI-Rs had Avons with cascading reversers.
 
CV990
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RE: Caravelle Cabin Configurations

Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:27 pm

Hi!

Yes, FriendlySkies is absolutely right, first Caravelle with reversers was the model VI-R (R for reverse I presume...) and the first airline to adopt that was UNITED! TAP also used the VI-R also because they wanted to operate the airplane in FNC, at that time one of the shortest runways in the world with a lot of work!!!


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Photo © Antonio Camarasa - Iberian Spotters



Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
Grunf
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RE: Caravelle Cabin Configurations

Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:27 pm

Are there any flying examples left? I heard there was one old bird in Gabon or similar african country...?
Drink more milk, less kerosene!
 
CV990
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RE: Caravelle Cabin Configurations

Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:40 pm

Hi!

I think the Gabon Air Express is not flying anymore!!! I know that one was in South Africa and another "maybe" still in Congo???
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
FriendlySkies
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Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: Caravelle Cabin Configurations

Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:58 pm

Quoting CV990 (Reply 20):
I think the Gabon Air Express is not flying anymore!!! I know that one was in South Africa and another "maybe" still in Congo???

Didn't that one crash a couple years back? There was a thread here on it I think...
 
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saleya22r
Posts: 175
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:13 am

RE: Caravelle Cabin Configurations

Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:59 pm

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 17):
Not true. United's VI-Rs had Avons with cascading reversers.



Quoting CV990 (Reply 18):
Yes, FriendlySkies is absolutely right, first Caravelle with reversers was the model VI-R (R for reverse I presume...) and the first airline to adopt that was UNITED! TAP also used the VI-R also because they wanted to operate the airplane in FNC, at that time one of the shortest runways in the world with a lot of work!!!

Thanks for correcting me. Only the first versions I-III did not have reversers. Were all of them equipped with a chute?
 
MEA-707
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Joined: Mon Nov 15, 1999 4:51 am

RE: Caravelle Cabin Configurations

Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:14 pm

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 21):
Quoting CV990 (Reply 20):
I think the Gabon Air Express is not flying anymore!!! I know that one was in South Africa and another "maybe" still in Congo???

Didn't that one crash a couple years back? There was a thread here on it I think...

Indeed the Gabon machine, featured in a video, stopped operating passengers in 2001 and transferred to cargo operations. It crashed in 2004. Waltair in Congo was the final operator of Caravelles, it operated two Caravelles but they withdrew them in 2005, so NO Caravelles have been flying anymore in the last two years. One of the Waltair machines is supposed to be kept airworthy for one ferry flight to a museum, but as it hasn't been seen for a while I am a bit worried about its status.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?

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