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VS11
Posts: 1661
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:52 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 98):
Unless airlines are comparatively minor investment in slots and facilities will pale in comparison to that in the idled fleets that airlines use for transatlantic flights.

Huh? idled fleets for transatlantic service? I suggest you read and think about what you wrote...we are talking a timeframe of 2 years - within that timeframe EU carriers will order and get FLEETS to be deployed across the Atlantic, which all of a sudden will become idled when O/S is off?!? Where are these FLEETS going to come from within the next two years?

You seem to suggest that there is this HUGE demand for travel from EU to US on EU carriers, which is being pent up by the current agreements and O/S will release this demand which will result in the NEW FLEETS of EU carriers specifically deployed on these routes to catch up with the demand -- this is totally unrealistic. There is enough EU carrier capacity on the market even today. EU carriers do not need the O/S so that they can fly more between EU and US. They need O/S to consolidate better and more efficiently and cut capacity not increase it.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:57 am

Quoting VS11 (Reply 100):
Huh? idled fleets for transatlantic service? I suggest you read and think about what you wrote...we are talking a timeframe of 2 years - within that timeframe EU carriers will order and get FLEETS to be deployed across the Atlantic, which all of a sudden will become idled when O/S is off?!? Where are these FLEETS going to come from within the next two years?

Do you think that BA and other EU airlines could afford to see idling of their existing fleets that are used on transatlantic flights?
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VS11
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Fri Mar 23, 2007 10:24 am

"Do you think that BA and other EU airlines could afford to see idling of their existing fleets that are used on transatlantic flights? "

If you mean their current ones (which will become idle due to the breakdown of US-EU relations circa 2010, which will be the result of going to ultra regulated and cut-down transatlantic air services agreements)- ask the same questions for US carriers. You think they are not going to suffer under your envisioned transatlantic meltdown?
 
vv701
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:37 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 53):
No, not really...everyone has to go through immigration and customs when flying LHR-CDG but not when flying JFK-ORD.

There is a 'Red' customs channel if you are a non-EU citizen have something to declare. There is a 'Green' customs channel if you are a non-EU citizen and have nothing to declare. But as an EU citizen I go through neither when travelling between EU countries. I use the Blue channel which is not a customs channel at all.
 
scotron11
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:14 pm

Quoting VS11 (Reply 90):

I am rather curious as to where the aircraft for all these potential new services will come from, for all the new entrants. It is not like they knew about this and prepared for it. For instance, CO plans to keep LGW and LHR so there will be a need for new aircraft as they will not just switch equipment. What about DL,NW, BD?

I think BD are sorely lacking on aircraft to start 10 US destinations x-LHR, unless they "borrow" some. Maybe from LH? I'm sure CO, DL & NW will find enough equipment in their fleets to "squeeze" into LHR!
 
panamair
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:32 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 103):
But as an EU citizen I go through neither when travelling between EU countries. I use the Blue channel which is not a customs channel at all.

Huh? There is no Blue channel through Customs at TXL or FRA or CDG or most other EU airports.......LHR-CDG on BA - everyone goes through the same Customs exit (heck even at Immigrations at CDG where there are supposedly lines for EU/CH and non-EU, the split is hardly observed anyway) after they pick up their bags. At TXL, coming from CDG, pax. don't go through immigration but everyone (EU and non-EU) gets dumped into the same baggage reclaim area at the gate and everyone leaves through the same exit....
 
ViveLeYHZ
Posts: 188
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:31 pm

I believe this thread started on the topic of US-EU open skies, but has since degenerated to focus primarily on the future of LHR. I thought it was always a good thing to attract more airlines to one's airport, but not LHR !!??

Well, IMHO, I think this agreement is a good thing for the US, EU (Britain included) and LHR. Maybe we will finally see a third runway at LHR. And seriously, LHR is serviced by Air Mauritius, Sudan Airways, and many other small carriers, yet DL, CO, and NW cannot land there !! Give me a break, it's 2007 already.

On a different note, I think the British will eventually make LGW/STN/LHR work the same way the Americans have EWR/LGA/JFK working just fine.

Congrats to all in the US and EU
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:48 pm

Personally I don't believe there will be tons of new flights all of a sudden into European province-towns..
Even without the Opensky agreement ,most US carriers had the opportunity to open new routes at leasue -look at Delta announcing flights into Pisa ...
Two facts clearly limit the impact of the agreement -unavailability of appropriate aircraft for most airlines and fear to invest in routes that would be appreciated by the local comunity but won't be comercially viable.
Examples would be flights into Italian cities like Naples,Palermo or Rimini..
Or into Spain other than MAD and BCN - like Alicante or Sevilla - all those places would love to see direct flight into USA but yields would not sustain the op's ,due to heavy Y-class dominance.
The UK -considering it's ties with the US - will sustain a better ground for USA flights than say,Scandinavia.
Some openings might be detectable in Germany ( Hannover,Nuremberg ,Cologne ) where a rather good mix of leasure and business passengers might be found.
I agree on the fact this thread speaks too much about LHR - there is other airports concerned than just London airports.
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Bongodog1964
Posts: 3542
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:51 pm

Quoting NASOCEANA (Reply 99):
The whole foreign ownership debate was made clear with the proposed Dubai Ports Deal. American citizens(Congress) made it quite clear that we have no problems with foreign ownership in the United States. However, when the ownership stake is in a "critical infrastructure" within the United States thats when its a question of National Security arises.

Why can it be deemed that ownership of the ports through which the majority of the imports that the US depends upon is not a National Security question; but the operation of internal flights is ?

It seems that all round the World aviation is treated as a special case. There is no other industry in which both state and privately owned companies are willing to lose so much money for prestige; in addition there seems to be few worries over who owns the buses, the banks who look after our money, the electricity suppliers etc; but when it comes to the airlines its a different matter.
 
panamair
Posts: 4327
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:39 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 107):
I agree on the fact this thread speaks too much about LHR - there is other airports concerned than just London airports.

There is so much focus on LHR simply because the end of Bermuda II is one of the biggest (if not biggest) change to result from this agreement; as you mentioned, the US already has Open Skies with many of the individual EU countries (Germany, France, Netherlands, etc.) so there will unlikely be many changes there (i.e., in US-France flights, for example, except perhaps for the one or two non-French/US carriers which may try to start CDG-US flights).

The other significant change resulting from this agreement could be the facilitation of consolidation (particularly among EU carriers) since there will no longer be restrictions, for example, for LH or BA to operate flights from MAD to the U.S. through a merger with IB, etc. Even though any EU airline will now be able to start flights from an EU city outside of its home country to the US, I really don't see a rush into this either - too expensive a proposition, and there aren't too many EU-US transatlantic routes left that are so lucrative that they can attract a significant increase in the number of carriers or flights.....The best way for an LH or a BA to accomplish this would be through a merger with another EU carrier....
 
steeler83
Posts: 7700
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:58 pm

Quoting Scotron11 (Reply 104):
I think BD are sorely lacking on aircraft to start 10 US destinations x-LHR, unless they "borrow" some. Maybe from LH? I'm sure CO, DL & NW will find enough equipment in their fleets to "squeeze" into LHR!

Rain Man could have told us that! "Lacking... definitely lacking... lacking lacking... 3 A330s... lacking..." I think US would be more likely to partner up w/ BD in addition to LH, given that they are all Star members, but I guess that really doesn't mean anything...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
Ned Kelly
Posts: 408
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2001 8:14 am

RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:16 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 103):
There is a 'Red' customs channel if you are a non-EU citizen have something to declare. There is a 'Green' customs channel if you are a non-EU citizen and have nothing to declare. But as an EU citizen I go through neither when travelling between EU countries. I use the Blue channel which is not a customs channel at all.

I don't think this has anything to do with citizenship but rather where you arrived from, "Red" channel if you have arrived from outside of the EU and you have something to declare, "Green" if arriving from outside the EU & you have nothing to declare & "Blue" channel if arriving from within the EU. The "Blue" channel is still under customs control & you can still be stopped and searched. (In the UK).
 
scotron11
Posts: 1432
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:54 pm

RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Ski

Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:28 pm

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 110):

" I think US would be more likely to partner up w/ BD in addition to LH

This O/S deal has thrown up all sort of possibilities. The Telegraph says that slots at LHR trade between £5M-20M, and with 90 slots, BD is sitting quite pretty. So pretty in fact, that VS is looking at it again. As I am sure quite a few airlines are.

LH has a put option for the remainder of BD, which it can excercise this year, when it bought it's original stake in 1999. Of course, with O/S, the value of BD has now increased tremendously.

And what would BA do if either LH or VS try to get control of BD?
 
steeler83
Posts: 7700
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:42 pm

So basically BMI will be broken up and sold in parts. VS wants a stake in it, as does LH. At least that's what I gather from that...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Sat Mar 24, 2007 12:39 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 91):
I am aware of that. I doubt EU countries would like to go back to those older agreements.

I think it's an idle threat. The US has no intent to change the ownership laws. Then someone like BA who feels injury due to lack of ownership of a US airline will have to convince thier government that it's worth trying to convince the rest of the EU to shut down the bilaterals and throw the entire EU-US aviation market into chaos. Each step after the first will at best be done with hesitation, and quite possibly not at all.

Quoting ViveLeYHZ (Reply 106):
Maybe we will finally see a third runway at LHR.

It's interesting that almost all the talk here is of selling off slots used by commuter aircraft so that US airlines can fly more widebodies into LHR. It makes one wonder if the proposed 2000 m third runway would be all that useful.
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bmiexpat
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:11 am

RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Sat Mar 24, 2007 1:17 am

Quoting Scotron11 (Reply 112):

LH has a put option for the remainder of BD, which it can excercise this year, when it bought it's original stake in 1999.



Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 113):
So basically BMI will be broken up and sold in parts. VS wants a stake in it, as does LH. At least that's what I gather from that...

I think you'll finf that SMB has the option to force LH to purchase the remainder of bmi, LH has no say in it.

SMB as the majority shareholder will not sell up/allow bmi to be broken up. It has been his desire for many, many years for bmi to be a transatlantic operator from LHR, and he now finally has his wish!
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Sat Mar 24, 2007 1:44 am

Quoting Ned Kelly (Reply 111):

I don't think this has anything to do with citizenship but rather where you arrived from

It doesn't.

Even if I arrive into the UK or anywhere else in the EU from within EU, if I am not an EU citizen I still go through the non-EU lines for customs and passport control.

NS
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Sat Mar 24, 2007 1:59 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 116):
Even if I arrive into the UK or anywhere else in the EU from within EU, if I am not an EU citizen I still go through the non-EU lines for customs and passport control.

not if you arrive into a Schengen country from another Schengen county - there is no passport control - and the EU non / EU customs lines refer to where you have just come through , not which passport or Identity card you hold .
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Sat Mar 24, 2007 2:02 am

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 117):
not if you arrive into a Schengen country from another Schengen county - there is no passport control - and the EU non / EU customs lines refer to where you have just come through , not which passport or Identity card you hold .

Not in my experience.

Many times in the very recent past I have landed in airports within the E.U. and had to not only pass through passport control -- which absolutely does, indeed, still exist -- but also had to pass through lines entitled "Non-E.U. Passport Holders." That, to me, does have something to do with where I am from, not where I am arriving from, and indeed even when I have been flying solely within the E.U. still had to use those lines as my passport, obviously, is not issued by a member state of the European Union.
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Ski

Sat Mar 24, 2007 2:03 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 116):
Quoting Ned Kelly (Reply 111):

I don't think this has anything to do with citizenship but rather where you arrived from

It doesn't.

Even if I arrive into the UK or anywhere else in the EU from within EU, if I am not an EU citizen I still go through the non-EU lines for customs and passport control.

You're right in terms of passport control, but you're wrong with regards to the customs part: passport controls are divided into EU/CH/... and Non-EU/CH/..., but which customs channel you go through depends only on where you arrived from.

If you, as a US citizen, arrive at, for example, LHR from FRA, you'd walk through the Non-EU passport control, but then you'd head towards the EU customs channel just like any other person arriving from within the EU.

[Edited 2007-03-23 19:04:41]
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ANother
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:47 am

RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Sat Mar 24, 2007 2:05 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 116):
Even if I arrive into the UK or anywhere else in the EU from within EU, if I am not an EU citizen I still go through the non-EU lines for customs and passport control.

Then you are doing it wrong. Passport control (immigration) Yes - separate lines based on your nationality. Customs (after you get your bags) it depends where you are coming from.

i.e. My French wife and I arrive at London - She goes to the EU passport queue - I go to the foreigners queue. We both end up in the baggage hall. If we've arrived from the EU - we both go through the Blue lane. If we arrived from Switzerland we both go through the Green lane.
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Sat Mar 24, 2007 2:07 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 118):
Many times in the very recent past I have landed in airports within the E.U. and had to not only pass through passport control -- which absolutely does, indeed, still exist -- but also had to pass through lines entitled "Non-E.U. Passport Holders."

Correct if one of the countries is non-Schengen.

If, for example, you're flying FRA-VIE or CDG-MAD, LIS-AMS, you will certainly not be passing through a passport control, not for EU passport holders, not for non-EU passport holders.

If, on the other hand, you're flying LHR-BRU, you'd have to pass through passport controls, as the UK is one of the non-Schengen countries.
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