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PITSpeedbird
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:25 pm

RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:48 am

Quoting PIT" class=quote target=_blank>PIT (Reply 49):
No matter what PIT will never be a HUB again, at least for US Airways. I do see a WN Focus City thought and US dropping all the routes that WN grabs, but that just what I think.

Wow! Debbie Downer!  crying 

lol...

Never say never.

US and and Parker will come around
 
tooluther
Posts: 203
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RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:56 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 44):



Quoting ScottB (Reply 48):

Best/Most logical PIT related post EVER
 
jdwfloyd
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RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:02 am

Quoting PIT" class=quote target=_blank>PIT (Reply 49):
I do see a WN Focus City thought and US dropping all the routes that WN grabs

WN will not grow PIT much larger. Maybe a few flights here and there, but no real growth past where they are. Currently WN is just connecting PIT into there east route structure. At the most you may see a flight or two to FLL, MCI and DAL when they open it up.
As for WN just picking the pieces up from US, that doesn't hold true. Every market that WN serves out of PIT directly US also serves. The cuts in flights to those cities came long before WN came to PIT. In fact the opposite is happening. Every market that WN has entered in PIT, US has beefed frequency and or equipment and also matched their fares.
 
luketenley
Topic Author
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RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:03 am

Quoting PIT" class=quote target=_blank>PIT (Reply 49):
No matter what PIT will never be a HUB again, at least for US Airways. I do see a WN Focus City thought and US dropping all the routes that WN grabs, but that just what I think

I don't believe US will bring PIT back to hub status either. I do see them gaining more flights though. As far as US dropping those WN destinations, they will either have to or drastically lower ticket prices.
 
Flaps
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RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:27 am

ScottB...well said.

With regards to the Bahamas, US used to run a PIT-CLT-NAS flight on an A321 that I often used. Loads were good. Approximatley 50% of the PIT originating pax went through to NAS on the flights I took. Usually the flight was 100% booked on PIT-CLT and about 80-90% on CLT- NAS. I have always found though that the return flights NAS-CLT seemed to have very low load factors, no more than 40%. There was no through service to PIT during that time so I cant provide an equivalent comparison northbound. I no longer use US as of 2004 so that is about the best I can contribute.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 33):
I couldn't afford those rediculous fares myself, and I still cant... Yet... I flew at least 4 times in the past year and a half between PHL and PIT... I flew twice since just last Chirstmas, both times on US Airways... Why? Round trip fares fell to under 100 bucks AFTER fees and tax...

You would probably be wise to make at least a few of those trips on WN instead of US. You wouldnt be seeing any of those fares if it werent for WN.
 
pit
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RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:50 am

Quoting Flaps (Reply 54):
You would probably be wise to make at least a few of those trips on WN instead of US. You wouldnt be seeing any of those fares if it werent for WN.

Yes that is very true, but US dropping PIT as a HUB had allot to do with WN coming to Pittsburgh in the first place. Does anyone know how Jetblue is doing in Pittsburgh? Alot of people like them here from what i was told but, with all those delays lately they need to get there act together or get new management. I like the direct tv and that is the main reason why i flew on them a few months ago, but now i dont want to risk being delayed not only hours but maybe days. thats how they lost me as a customer. One more thing can you tell me why Delta would give me a seven hour layover in JFK. I am traveling to Berlin tomorrow and that was the layover i got. It kind of sounds dumb to me but, only if US Airways only still had the direct FRA flight still. That was a nice flight and the 330 was an extremely nice plane.
 
FCYTravis
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RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:10 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 44):
Moving two or three of those flights to PIT (timed to connect with the banks) would free up capacity for other flights at PHL which actually carry some O&D traffic.

Yes, but then you're down to just two or three flights from IPT-PHL for the (much larger) connecting banks there.

US can't start unraveling PHL to build up PIT, because then they'll wind up with two half-sized "focus hubs" which won't provide enough flights to achieve hub critical mass at either airport.

The real problem is that US simply does not have enough mainline aircraft to grow routes anywhere - the fleet is stretched quite thin as it is. As the E190s arrive, this should ease up (as will the E175 Express aircraft) and allow network growth, but whether that will come at PIT or elsewhere (like DCA, where US has been aggressively trying to gain every slot it can) is, I think, an open question.
 
USPIT10L
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RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:19 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 48):
You can read the company's 1993 Annual Report and see the future in the mention of low-cost competition (and specifically Southwest).

"We feel that we can compete effectively against Southwest using our current cost structure" ROFL ROFL! I have that annual report and about bust a gut laughing at that statement.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 48):



Quoting ScottB (Reply 44):

Well said, sir. Welcome to my RR.
 
pit
Posts: 73
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RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:30 am

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 56):

US can't start unraveling PHL to build up PIT, because then they'll wind up with two half-sized "focus hubs" which won't provide enough flights to achieve hub critical mass at either airport.

You are exactly right. Even know PIT is a focus city, US Airways is not very focused on it but they have a good reason for it, why make 4 dollars at PIT when you could make 5 dollars at PHL? This is a business not who they like better. As soon as PIT makes more money for US than PHL does i can almost guarantee that allot of PHL the operation will shift to PIT. But yes PHL is a crappy dump that has more flight's than it was designed to handle but, what do you want them to do? Tell US Airways to cut back flight's causing both the airport and the company to loose revenue? I don't think so, and its not like PHL has the room to build new runways or terminals anyways. The only option they have is to build a whole new airport like PIT did, and they don't have the land to do that either.
 
luketenley
Topic Author
Posts: 415
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RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:33 am

Quoting PIT" class=quote target=_blank>PIT (Reply 55):
Yes that is very true, but US dropping PIT as a HUB had allot to do with WN coming to Pittsburgh in the first place. Does anyone know how Jetblue is doing in Pittsburgh? Alot of people like them here from what i was told but, with all those delays lately they need to get there act together or get new management. I like the direct tv and that is the main reason why i flew on them a few months ago, but now i dont want to risk being delayed not only hours but maybe days. thats how they lost me as a customer. One more thing can you tell me why Delta would give me a seven hour layover in JFK. I am traveling to Berlin tomorrow and that was the layover i got. It kind of sounds dumb to me but, only if US Airways only still had the direct FRA flight still. That was a nice flight and the 330 was an extremely nice plane.

I am very glad WN came to PIT. It has lowered ticket prices drastically. This has caused alot of pax who went to CLE and CMH to come back to PIT. Another reason why O&D taffic is up. The high prices scared people away.

jetBlue is doing ok I believe. They took out some BOS flights though temporarily as the Boston travel season has come down. Their JFK flights are doing good I assume. Don't really hear too much. WN is the big talk of PIT right now. My mom is flying on jetBlue in August. I'll see how her experience is.

Delta giving you that layover might have something to do with how they schedule their international flights. Maybe there wasn't another flight from PIT to JFK that would put you closer to your other departure time.

We all wish US would add international flights back. Something will happen soon.
 
FCYTravis
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RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:49 am

Quoting PIT (Reply 58):
I don't think so, and its not like PHL has the room to build new runways or terminals anyways.

Actually, the PHL long-term master plan process is underway right now, and it's possible that the entire airport could be essentially razed and rebuilt from the ground-up, with four parallel runways and midfield airside concourses, DEN/ATL style.

Other possibilities under study include the demolition of Terminals D/E/F to allow for Runway 8/26 to be lengthened to 7,000 feet for RJ operations, and the construction of a new 9,000-foot 9R/27L where the air cargo operations are now located.

http://www.phl-cep-eis.com/pdfs/PHL_CEP_NewsletterMay2006.pdf

[Edited 2007-03-28 04:50:59]
 
luketenley
Topic Author
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RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:54 am

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 60):
Actually, the PHL long-term master plan process is underway right now, and it's possible that the entire airport could be essentially razed and rebuilt from the ground-up, with four parallel runways and midfield airside concourses, DEN/ATL style.

Other possibilities under study include the demolition of Terminals D/E/F to allow for Runway 8/26 to be lengthened to 7,000 feet for RJ operations, and the construction of a new 9,000-foot 9R/27L where the air cargo operations are now located.

PHL_CEP_NewsletterMay2006.pdf
" target=_blank>http://www.phl-cep-eis.com/pdfs/PHL_...6.pdf
I think the first option would be the better one. Redo the entire complex. They need something like DEN, ATL, PIT. Parallel runways would help them drastically in inclimate weather. I see this being the only completely feasible solution. But will it happen? Who knows. Would cost billions.
 
steeler83
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RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:10 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 48):

Yeah, I completely forgot that WN entered all of those markets between 1993 and 2001, and US strongholds at that. That certainly was a big factor in why US encountered all the problems it did...

Quoting Luketenley (Reply 53):
I don't believe US will bring PIT back to hub status either. I do see them gaining more flights though. As far as US dropping those WN destinations, they will either have to or drastically lower ticket prices.

I don't see it happening either. I also see a moderate build up of WN though. I know that people on here are thinking they're expansion is finished, but I wouldn't be so quick to say that. Many others, myself included, see a market of 40 departures for WN at PIT. There are 23 departures now...

I do hope that PIT could be a multi focus city. It will never be a hub again, for anyone for that matter. It certainly has the space for a multi focus city operation. It would be neat if demand would warant that...
 
luketenley
Topic Author
Posts: 415
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RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:55 pm

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 62):
I don't see it happening either. I also see a moderate build up of WN though. I know that people on here are thinking they're expansion is finished, but I wouldn't be so quick to say that. Many others, myself included, see a market of 40 departures for WN at PIT. There are 23 departures now...

I do hope that PIT could be a multi focus city. It will never be a hub again, for anyone for that matter. It certainly has the space for a multi focus city operation. It would be neat if demand would warant that...

The expansion of WN is also in the eyes of duty managers in operations at PIT too. As far as multi focus city, we have tons of space. We have room for airline lounges too.
 
steeler83
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Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:17 pm

Quoting Luketenley (Reply 63):
We have room for airline lounges too.

How about a 20-screen cinema?  Smile

Quoting Luketenley (Reply 63):
The expansion of WN is also in the eyes of duty managers in operations at PIT too.

I wonder if this would make our statements all the more valid then... Eh, I guess they're also just others who have high hopes of a WN expansion at some point in the future like the rest of us...
 
luketenley
Topic Author
Posts: 415
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:51 am

RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:37 pm

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 64):
How about a 20-screen cinema?

HAHA I doubt that one.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 64):
I wonder if this would make our statements all the more valid then... Eh, I guess they're also just others who have high hopes of a WN expansion at some point in the future like the rest of us...

He is both very experience and an airport anthusiast like ourselves. He's been working for the airport for 28 years. He has definately been through alot at both terminals. I'm sure he can see or sense things that could happen at the airport since he's seen so much over the years.
 
PVD757
Posts: 3301
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RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:23 pm

pardon if it hasn't been posted here yet (too lazy to read through all the posts) but:

PIT-MHT returns 6/3/07 with 3X ER4 service (3500 series flight numbers, is that TSA or CHQ?).
 
tooluther
Posts: 203
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:21 am

RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:24 pm

Quoting PIT (Reply 55):
Does anyone know how Jetblue is doing in Pittsburgh?

RE: JetBlue's Pullback Stokes Fears Over Fares (by Tooluther Mar 10 2007 in Civil Aviation)
 
N670UW
Posts: 1443
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 9:55 am

RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:45 pm

Quoting PVD757 (Reply 66):
PIT-MHT returns 6/3/07 with 3X ER4 service (3500 series flight numbers, is that TSA or CHQ?

Those are Trans States flights.

PIT-PWM also resumes June 3, as well, twice daily on Trans States/US Express.
 
PITSpeedbird
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:25 pm

RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:07 am

Quoting Luketenley (Reply 63):
As far as multi focus city, we have tons of space. We have room for airline lounges too.

And don't forget wireless internet!!
I think that is really convenient selling point for PIT.
It's very annoying to fly through ATL / MDW or the like and find that you have to
pay or subscribe for wirelss internet.
It never seems practical for the traveller with a one hour layover in these cities to
purchase a whole day of internet service!!

I hope PIT never starts charging for this convenience either

- PITSpeedbird
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:51 am

hopefully delta will be able to go mainline from pit as they have from det, cle, etc etc a 737-800 would be nice on the route
 
ScottB
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RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:01 am

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 56):
Yes, but then you're down to just two or three flights from IPT-PHL for the (much larger) connecting banks there.

US can't start unraveling PHL to build up PIT, because then they'll wind up with two half-sized "focus hubs" which won't provide enough flights to achieve hub critical mass at either airport.

I don't think the idea is to "unravel" PHL at all; rather, it needs to be at a size where US can operate reliably and provide a good customer experience. I don't think they're there at this point, and part of that is that they're trying to stuff ten pounds of "sand" into a five-pound bag. Granted, they probably are trying to blunt Southwest's ability to grow at PHL by congesting the airfield, but that's self-defeating, especially since Southwest will just schedule around the hub banks.
 
steeler83
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Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:03 am

Quoting Luketenley (Reply 65):
He is both very experience and an airport anthusiast like ourselves. He's been working for the airport for 28 years. He has definately been through alot at both terminals. I'm sure he can see or sense things that could happen at the airport since he's seen so much over the years.

Good enough for me then  Smile

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 70):
hopefully delta will be able to go mainline from pit as they have from det, cle, etc etc a 737-800 would be nice on the route

That would be swell! I remember when they sent a 757 on an ATL-PIT-YYZ routing. I didn't realize it was on that routing until just recently, but I remember seeing a 757 at gate D76...
 
B752OS
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Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:05 am

RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:25 am

Quoting Tooluther (Reply 67):
Quoting PIT (Reply 55):
Does anyone know how Jetblue is doing in Pittsburgh?

RE: JetBlue's Pullback Stokes Fears Over Fares (by Tooluther Mar 10 2007 in Civil Aviation)

Does US really have that big of a hold on the BOS-PIT market?

A buddy of mine has clients out in Penn Hills and he flies BOS-PIT-BOS on a monthly basis, sometimes 3 or 4 times a month and always goes with US and pays at least $400.00 r/t. The only reason he books with US is because of their schedules on BOS-PIT-BOS.

Over St. Patrick's day weekend, I met a group of 8 guys who all flew in from PIT to BOS for the festivities and they mentioned they went with B6 because they were so damn cheap compared to US.....I am surprised other people don't see it.

[Edited 2007-03-28 19:28:20]
 
PVD757
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Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:23 pm

RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:34 am

Quoting B752OS (Reply 73):
Does US really have that big of a hold on the BOS-PIT market?

in the 3rd quarter of 2006, US had 60% market share whereas B6 had 33%...
 
FCYTravis
Posts: 1172
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RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:12 am

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 70):
I don't think the idea is to "unravel" PHL at all; rather, it needs to be at a size where US can operate reliably and provide a good customer experience.

Well, you can call it what you want, but the fact is that pulling flights out of PHL is unraveling the hub. You can't start dismantling the place piecemeal, because you'll lose the critical mass of flights which enable the hub to be profitable.

It is the O&D-based mixture of traffic at PHL which makes it an extremely valuable place to base an airline hub, questions of reliability and "customer experience" notwithstanding. That's why it's nonsensical to think that US will ever shrink PHL in any substantial fashion. It's the puzzle piece which makes the whole operation profitable and sustains the carrier's commitment to transatlantic growth.

Yes, PHL is a congested dump. But it's much, much easier to fix an airport (even one as wretched as PHL is) than to convince all the Philadelphia O&D pax that they'd really much rather fly to PIT and connect than take a non-stop from PHL. The former is a possibility, the latter will never happen. That's why PIT growth, if it comes, will not come at the expense of any substantial pulldown of PHL.
 
B752OS
Posts: 1329
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:05 am

RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:52 am

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 75):
Well, you can call it what you want, but the fact is that pulling flights out of PHL is unraveling the hub. You can't start dismantling the place piecemeal, because you'll lose the critical mass of flights which enable the hub to be profitable.

It is the O&D-based mixture of traffic at PHL which makes it an extremely valuable place to base an airline hub, questions of reliability and "customer experience" notwithstanding. That's why it's nonsensical to think that US will ever shrink PHL in any substantial fashion. It's the puzzle piece which makes the whole operation profitable and sustains the carrier's commitment to transatlantic growth.

Yes, PHL is a congested dump. But it's much, much easier to fix an airport (even one as wretched as PHL is) than to convince all the Philadelphia O&D pax that they'd really much rather fly to PIT and connect than take a non-stop from PHL. The former is a possibility, the latter will never happen. That's why PIT growth, if it comes, will not come at the expense of any substantial pulldown of PHL.

I have flown US several times and connected through all 3 main hubs, PIT, CLT and PHL and have to say that PIT is by far, the easiest and nicest hub they have ever had. It is sad that PIT is no longer a hub for US because it is a perfect airport for a hub operation. Add in the fact that the facilities there are MUCH better than PHL and CLT, and PIT should still be a US hub. PHL does have that great mixture of O&D and connecting traffic, but from an operational standpoint, wouldn't US be better off sending more flights into and out of PIT rather than to PHL? I don't think anyone was suggesting that US cut PHL down and send them all through PIT, but for fpassengers who fly out of airports like BDL, MHT, PVD, BOS, LGA, JFK, IAD, DCA, PWM, BVT, ALB to cities in the west such as LAX, SFO, SEA, SAN, LAS, DEN, SLC, PHX for example, connecting through PIT would be much easier than PHL and that is why they should add more flights out of PIT to handle these connecting passengers.
 
PVD757
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RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:37 am

I think moving 1 or 2 of the 8 or 9 connecting banks at PHL to PIT would preserve the needed frequency to support the O&D at PHL while at the same time allowing the remaining PHL banks to be pread out in the hopes to improve on time reliabilty and better customer service.

just my 2 cents...
 
ScottB
Posts: 7510
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:10 am

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 75):
That's why it's nonsensical to think that US will ever shrink PHL in any substantial fashion. It's the puzzle piece which makes the whole operation profitable and sustains the carrier's commitment to transatlantic growth.

But...the idea isn't even to shrink PHL substantially; rather, you'd pull out regional flying that in itself carries little O&D to/from PHL. Places like AVP, IPT, ISP, MDT, SCE, SBY, ELM, etc. all have fewer than 10 O&D passengers daily to PHL. Moving some (though not all) of those flights to PIT would free up space at PHL for other flights with larger equipment and/or in markets with greater O&D. Some flights from these smaller markets would still offer connections at PHL -- especially for access to transatlantic departures and arrivals. But frankly, someone flying SCE-LAS, ELM-FLL, IPT-ORD, MDT-LAX, or SBY-DEN is probably better served via PIT, and it frees up resources at PHL. You wouldn't want to move all the regional flying to PIT given that there aren't enough departure banks for it to make sense anyway.

If PHL had the capacity of an ATL, it would be a great hub...but it doesn't.
 
B752OS
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Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:05 am

RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:14 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 78):
If PHL had the capacity of an ATL, it would be a great hub...but it doesn't.

PHL will never, or would never be an ATL......US is not as large an airline for starters, their hubs are better balanced, DL is lopsided with their hubs. Second, ATL has a whole region to itself.....where PHL has BWI, EWR, JFK and LGA all within 120 miles.
 
steeler83
Posts: 7702
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:35 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 78):

Man, after I thought you couldn't post anything better than in replies 44 and 48...

Good post  Smile

I don't see that as unraveling PHL either. Parker really wants to expand PHL internationally. Where does he think he is going to stick those A340s for China routes, providing they get approval? Where else are they going to put the planes for when they continue their massive expansion into Europe?

Sending underperforming PHL regional flights through to PIT would make sense to build up PHL with larger necessary equipment IMO...
 
steeler83
Posts: 7702
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:38 am

Quoting B752os (Reply 79):
PHL will never, or would never be an ATL......US is not as large an airline for starters, their hubs are better balanced, DL is lopsided with their hubs. Second, ATL has a whole region to itself.....where PHL has BWI, EWR, JFK and LGA all within 120 miles.

True, but I think he's referring to the available space to expand. PIT is actually larger than ATL by area size, despite not even having half the pax of ATL, even at its apex of traffic in 2000/2001 with the US hub.
 
luketenley
Topic Author
Posts: 415
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:51 am

RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:33 pm

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 81):
True, but I think he's referring to the available space to expand. PIT is actually larger than ATL by area size, despite not even having half the pax of ATL, even at its apex of traffic in 2000/2001 with the US hub.

PIT is actually the 3rd or 4th largest (not exactly sure) in terms of land area. It can, comfortably, hold ATL and ORD within the property the ACAA owns. I know DEN is the largest with MCO right behind it. I think DFW is the 3rd largest with PIT in 4th. Am I correct?

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 80):
I don't see that as unraveling PHL either. Parker really wants to expand PHL internationally. Where does he think he is going to stick those A340s for China routes, providing they get approval? Where else are they going to put the planes for when they continue their massive expansion into Europe?

Sending underperforming PHL regional flights through to PIT would make sense to build up PHL with larger necessary equipment IMO...

By putting more of the regional traffic into PIT, they would expand their international frequencies. They would need to add more PHL- PIT flights to cover the traffic they would take away from PHL.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 72):
That would be swell! I remember when they sent a 757 on an ATL-PIT-YYZ routing. I didn't realize it was on that routing until just recently, but I remember seeing a 757 at gate D76...

When did you see this? I haven't seen a DL 757 in a long time. And that was a charter flight.
 
b52murph
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:02 pm

RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:08 pm

Quoting PVD757 (Reply 77):
I think moving 1 or 2 of the 8 or 9 connecting banks at PHL to PIT would preserve the needed frequency to support the O&D at PHL while at the same time allowing the remaining PHL banks to be pread out in the hopes to improve on time reliabilty and better customer service.

just my 2 cents...

That is exactly the point I was making at the end of this thread US Airways...wow, Are Things Really This Bad? (by SHUPirate1 Mar 27 2007 in Civil Aviation) . While it may be fanciful to think that PHL will get a new airport, it won't happen quickly. Couldn't US move the hub ops to PIT and keep the O&D traffic @ PHL? The concept would work similar to DL @ JFK. DL has very few connecting flights through JFK, yet has a substantial long-haul operation. The reduction of short-haul domestic flights would reduce congestion at PHL and improve it's on-time rating.
 
steeler83
Posts: 7702
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:28 pm

Quoting Luketenley (Reply 82):
PIT is actually the 3rd or 4th largest (not exactly sure) in terms of land area. It can, comfortably, hold ATL and ORD within the property the ACAA owns. I know DEN is the largest with MCO right behind it. I think DFW is the 3rd largest with PIT in 4th. Am I correct?

I believe you are correct that PIT is the 4th biggest airport in the country, and both ATL and ORD can fit snuggily whithin the boundaries of the KPIT grounds.

Quoting Luketenley (Reply 82):
By putting more of the regional traffic into PIT, they would expand their international frequencies. They would need to add more PHL- PIT flights to cover the traffic they would take away from PHL.

Yeah, PHL could be freed up to add more flights with more appropriate aircraft, and PIT just might have the regional feed for a flight to London or FRA...

Quoting Luketenley (Reply 82):
When did you see this? I haven't seen a DL 757 in a long time. And that was a charter flight.

Yeah... Whenever I make a post with, "I remember when..." it's usually a good indicator that it was not recent.  Wink
That bit there was actually when I was about 10 and loved hanging out at the airside terminal when I was a kid. October 1st was even more memorable, the day PIT opened. The first aircraft I saw was an MD80 parked at A1. I even asked one of the gate agents if that was an MD80, and she said, "yes it is an MD80. I forget where it was going. Later that month I ultimately spent my first 2.5 hours in the air, courtesy of USAir 8564, a DC9 bound for MCO...

Okay... enough of this journey down memory lane...

Quoting B52murph (Reply 83):
That is exactly the point I was making at the end of this thread US Airways...wow, Are Things Really This Bad? (by SHUPirate1 Mar 27 2007 in Civil Aviation) . While it may be fanciful to think that PHL will get a new airport, it won't happen quickly. Couldn't US move the hub ops to PIT and keep the O&D traffic @ PHL? The concept would work similar to DL @ JFK. DL has very few connecting flights through JFK, yet has a substantial long-haul operation. The reduction of short-haul domestic flights would reduce congestion at PHL and improve it's on-time rating.

Ehhhh... I do see your argument, but I highly doubt that it will fly among other folks on here. In order to have a successful hub, you need the O&D. PHL has it; PIT does not... Just a friendly warning bud, you may get flamed  Wink
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:47 pm

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 84):
Ehhhh... I do see your argument, but I highly doubt that it will fly among other folks on here. In order to have a successful hub, you need the O&D. PHL has it; PIT does not... Just a friendly warning bud, you may get flamed

You know, Steeler, you may say that, but here's a shocker for you...According to DOT data from 2002 (when US still had Pittsburgh as a full-fledged hub), Pittsburgh had the second-highest amount of US-specific O&D traffic of anywhere in the US Airways system, behind, unsurprisingly, Philadelphia. Charlotte's O&D? Sixth! (note: this is not in terms of percentage. This is in terms of actual O&D passenger counts.)
 
steeler83
Posts: 7702
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:37 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 85):
Pittsburgh had the second-highest amount of US-specific O&D traffic of anywhere in the US Airways system, behind, unsurprisingly, Philadelphia.

Jeeeze!!!!!! That IS a shocker!!! Do you know how much O&D PIT had back then? As of 2005, I believe, only 7.3 million pax originated or destinated at PIT. What did the numbers look like in 2002?
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:45 am

Top Ten: (note: these are US Airways passengers only):

PHL: 6,050,620
PIT: 3,716,340
LGA: 3,530,220
DCA: 3,184,520
BOS: 3,163,160
CLT: 2,931,350
MCO: 2,301,370
TPA: 1,821,610
BWI: 1,476,090
FLL: 1,475,780
 
PVD757
Posts: 3301
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RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:01 am

for whoever cares, PVD had just shy of 1.1M US O&D pax in 2006 - I figure that should put us in the top 20??
 
jdwfloyd
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RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:04 am

The problem is back ten years ago people (mainly business travelers) would pay $1000+ to travel from IND to PVD. Today those people are only paying $200 to the most $400 for the same ticket. Back then airlines could afford to have a hub in less O&D oriented market. With more business travel being done on LCC or not done at all the majors had to change their game plan.

I see PIT being used as an overflow for PHL. In a few years PIT will be to US what CLE is to CO. The problem right now is lack of metal to spread around the system. US would love to tie the Midwest and Western cities that are only served from PHX or LAS into the East network, but they do not have the A/C to fly it on. Republic is taking deliveries of 175s now, but they are having problems finding and training enough crews to fly them. Piedmont has needed a replacement for the Dash-8 100s/200s for years now, and is still waiting. the long haul fleet is far smaller than it should be, by about 50%. Until US can get it regional, domestic and international fleets to where it should be there will be no expanding PIT to anything more than a few more flights.

In the future when the A/C are there to expand the cities served out of PHL and CLT they will have to either reduce frequency and increase the equipment size to the current markets. Or they will have to move some of the connections to PIT. Until then PIT will stay below 150 flights, the majority on RJs.
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
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RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:21 am

Quoting PVD757 (Reply 88):
for whoever cares, PVD had just shy of 1.1M US O&D pax in 2006 - I figure that should put us in the top 20??

According to these 2002 numbers, 993,650, which puts you thirteenth.

RDU (1,096,920) and LAX (1,042,310) were the other two to crack one million.
 
tooluther
Posts: 203
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:21 am

RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:52 am

Quoting B52murph (Reply 83):
The concept would work similar to DL @ JFK. DL has very few connecting flights through JFK, yet has a substantial long-haul operation. The reduction of short-haul domestic flights would reduce congestion at PHL and improve it's on-time rating.

[quote=Steeler83,reply=84]

The real difference is that DL's ATL hub has HUGE O/D. Other than that, it is an interesting theory.
 
steeler83
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RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:08 am

Quoting Tooluther (Reply 91):
The real difference is that DL's ATL hub has HUGE O/D. Other than that, it is an interesting theory.

 confused 

I am not sure of which statement in my reply (#84) you are refering to. I made a statement about the ATL and ORD facilities fitting snuggily within the PIT grounds. I made the statement about some regional PHL ops being shifted to PIT to free up PHL for other necessary expansion with [possibly] larger and/or better aircraft, which would increase PIT's regional feed for another domestic route or even international service.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8904
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RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:58 pm

Interesting thread guys......sorry I'm a few days late on the party. I've been busy keeping up with all of the NW & DTW discussions. But having spent a good 5-6 years in PA, I have some comments to add.

ScottB makes some interesting points as to how the downfall of PIT can be traced to multiple sources.
1) Expansion of WN into the Northeast & US strongholds BWI and other outstations
2) The regional jet: allowing NW from DTW, DL from ATL & CVG, and UA/AA from ORD to fly into smaller markets in the Mid-Atlantic / Northeast that either could only be reached with props or were out of range of the props but too small for mainline
3) Collapse of the ultra-high fare business travelers - some of it mandated, some of it discressionary
4) US's loverall lack of westward connections and market presence from any of their hubs
5) US's poor Midwestern market strategy

Now I'm having a hard time remembering how US initially deployed their regional jets - prior to the downsizing of PIT, circa 1999-2000, anyone remember how effect they were with this?

As for moving some of the Dash-8 markets from PHL to PIT, generally the Dash-8's aren't the ones choking up PHL as they can use 8/26 under most conditions. As we've discussed at length in other places, its the RJ's that are causing the problems.

As for making a hub, its impossible to operate a connecting hub with anything less than 3 banks. You can't operate a 1 or 2 bank hub due to limited connections and aircraft scheduling. With 3 banks, you can keep aircraft based at a hub sufficiently utilized throughout the entire day doing out & back's (see MEM, STL).

As for an O&D hub, US really needs to take a page from AA's playbook. Over the past few years, AA has gradually shifted some of its connecting traffic away from ORD over to DFW. This was done for several reasons:
1) Due to slot constrants and the inability to add more ORD flights, AA wanted to free up more seats for the massive amount of local O&D, to compete with UA, and also experience higher margins
2) Due to operational issues - massive ground delays, ATC constraints, connections are always being missed/broken/delayed

Gradually, AA has beefed up the number for frequencies from many markets into DFW to offer more connecting opportunites over ORD, where they are less constrained (and basically own the joint). Some of this was done also by modifying the arrival & departure times too. Note when you do online searches, they offer more choices, and often cheaper to fly say for example DTW-DFW-SAN versus DTW-ORD-SAN, or DTW-DFW-DEN versus DTW-ORD-DEN.

The connections are still there, but they can make it easier to go to the more connecting-based hub, something that US may need to consider with PHL and making it more adventous to use CLT and to a lesser extent PIT, when all other things are equal. Basically I would never want to go through PHL unless I have to begin or end a trip there. Actually, I've given up on PHL lately, and I use MDT for my gateway into Southeastern PA.
 
luketenley
Topic Author
Posts: 415
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RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:35 am

As far as AA moving flights to DFW, who forced ORD to stop adding flights? Was it the FAA? PHL definately look at this and move more flights away from PHL especially if they want to beef up their international flights. The thing with CLT is that their O&D sucks. Believe it or not, PIT has more O&D like previously stated. US definately has many options as far as aliviating some of the pain from PHL.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5649
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:44 am

Quoting Luketenley (Reply 82):
It can, comfortably, hold ATL and ORD within the property the ACAA owns.

Interesting. Given PIT's debt, have they made any effort to develop or sell excess land? Sounds to me like an opportunity without any risk to current or future air operations.
 
luketenley
Topic Author
Posts: 415
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:51 am

RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:00 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 95):
Interesting. Given PIT's debt, have they made any effort to develop or sell excess land? Sounds to me like an opportunity without any risk to current or future air operations.

When they built the new terminal, they actually wanted to build up a nice shopping complex within its property, but Robinson Towne Centre ended up building up extremely fast. That is just 6 miles east of the airport on Rt. 60. Right now they have the Airside Business Park and the FBO Avcenter which are both located on the location of the old airport terminal. The Air Force Reserve and Army bases take up alot of the property near the eastern and southern edges. On the northern side of the property is the cargo facilities. Tons of room to expand there. Rumor had it that Moon Township actually turned down a huge cargo company deal that would've brought in 13 747s a day. Master Plan for the airport actually has 8 runways built on the property. We will NEVER see that many. We will more then likely not even see a 5th runway built. So we have plenty of room to built up other business and things but nothing has really happened besides what has gone in near the old airport terminal property.
 
Logos
Posts: 610
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2000 10:47 pm

RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:28 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 92):
Now I'm having a hard time remembering how US initially deployed their regional jets - prior to the downsizing of PIT, circa 1999-2000, anyone remember how effect they were with this?

I don't remember the timeline exactly either, but US was a late comer to the RJ party because of their mainline pilots blocking their use. I think the beginning of downsizing at PIT and the advent of RJs at USex were roughly simultaneous events. I connected through PIT in November of 2002 and it was still a functioning hub with probably 100 more flights than today, but the RJs had taken over the A gates. So, in some ways, the RJs probably extended PIT's life as a hub and allows the number of nonstops currently in place.

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando
 
luketenley
Topic Author
Posts: 415
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:51 am

RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:18 am

Quoting Logos (Reply 97):
I don't remember the timeline exactly either, but US was a late comer to the RJ party because of their mainline pilots blocking their use. I think the beginning of downsizing at PIT and the advent of RJs at USex were roughly simultaneous events. I connected through PIT in November of 2002 and it was still a functioning hub with probably 100 more flights than today, but the RJs had taken over the A gates. So, in some ways, the RJs probably extended PIT's life as a hub and allows the number of nonstops currently in place.

Our express flights do keep PIT a functioning hub. Last I heard, we had just under 150 flights per day, 40 of those being mainline flights. That is alot of express flights taking our number way up.
 
steeler83
Posts: 7702
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: Rumor: US To Add More Flights To PIT

Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:31 am

Quoting Luketenley (Reply 96):

I heard that there was also another airside terminal in the master plan as well. That ain't happenin either. IMO, Moon Twp was FOOLISH for turning down that cargo proposal. 13 daily cargo 747s? What was Moon Twp thinking?!?! I wonder if it even says in their comprehensive plan, "to make it extremely difficult to grow this region economically. This region will go bankrupt in the near future and that is fine with us..." Having that kind of a cargo operation in town would do much much more benefit than it would hinder other development. Did they sleep during the days of the US fortress hub or something? I believe that hub supported some 20,000 jobs out there, which is a loss of how many people...

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