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COewrAAtysAZ
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Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:00 am

Glenn Tilton is one of the biggest thieves ever. I cannot believe that this is allowed to happen. This just goes to show you union's aren't worth sh*t. You pay all that money in dues and they have no muscle whatsoever to stop all of those wage and benefit cuts from going to the pigheaded bastard's pockets!!!


From USAToday's blog:

United CEO gets nearly $40M in total pay, reports say
United parent UAL gave CEO Glenn Tilton nearly $40 million in compensation last year, the airline's first year since emerging from a three-year bankruptcy stay. "The lion's share of … Tilton's remuneration came in the form of stock and option awards granted in February, including an award the ... company valued at $20 million when it was issued Feb. 2, one day after UAL emerged from court-protected bankruptcy," The Associated Press writes.

AP adds that "Tilton received subsequent awards worth about $18 million over the next four weeks. He was paid a base salary of $687,083, received $839,028 in non-equity incentive plan compensation and was granted other compensation of $210,959." The news agency says its calculations of total pay include salary, bonus, incentives, perks, above-market returns on deferred compensation and the estimated value of stock options and awards granted during the year.

The Denver Post notes "the pay disclosure came after pilots held airport rallies to protest wages they say are too low. Unions objected last year when the top eight executives got stock and options valued at $45 million, a 3.3% stake in the reorganized airline." As for the carrier's front line workers, the Rocky Mountain News says that "United also said Monday its employee incentive plan paid $104 million in 2006. Employees also received $11 million in profit sharing for 2006 and $1.1 billion in stock and cash when the carrier exited bankruptcy. Still, workers took steep pay and benefit cuts as United worked its way through bankruptcy," the paper adds.
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JayDub
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:08 am

The rich get richer, the poor get poorer. Nothing new there.

These "successes" are earned on the backs of the rank and file employees, yet the execes reap the rewards. Sickening.

There should be laws against executives taking bonuses and stock options until those who have taken paycuts to make the success of the business happen have been repaid or had their original wages reinstated.
"Travel is only glamorous in retrospect." - Paul Theroux
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:10 am

Stock grants/options... Not salary, just as the unions and rank and file were given as well.

Also keep in mind Tilton was about the only person willing to risk coming to United. He walked away from the CEO spot at Texaco/Chevron to help reorganize UAL. Kudos to him and the tens of thousand of employees that stuck together and steered UA out of Ch11.

We could be sitting here today very easily minus United Air Lines.
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FriendlySkies
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:14 am

This is getting really old...

I come from a blue collar family, but come on. This is how any industry works. You want a good CEO that will stick around, you have to pay him. Tilton managed to do what everyone was saying he couldn't - turn the sinking ship around and get it floating again. Yeah there's still work to do, but most people were writing UA off the day they filed Ch 11.

Tilton deserves every penny he made, and even though many employees on the surface bitch and moan about it, deep down everyone knows that's true. They wouldn't have jobs right now without him.
 
JayDub
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:30 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 3):
Tilton deserves every penny he made, and even though many employees on the surface bitch and moan about it, deep down everyone knows that's true. They wouldn't have jobs right now without him.

No doubt Tilton took on a tough job and turned the ship around...but when you split $11 million USD amongst thousands of employees who took paycuts to keep the company running and the CEO get's 4 times that amount for himself...there's just something not right about that.
"Travel is only glamorous in retrospect." - Paul Theroux
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:39 am

Quoting JayDub (Reply 4):
CEO get's 4 times that amount for himself...there's just something not right about that.

Read the original post....

Employees also received $11 million in profit sharing for 2006 and $1.1 billion in stock and cash when the carrier exited bankruptcy.


"The lion's share of ... Tilton's remuneration came in the form of stock and option awards granted in February,"
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Curiousflyer
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:48 am

40mm is still scary, even if part of it is not guaranteed. CEOs nowadays make insane salaries, they should not be earning more than a 100 times what their average co-worker gets, particularly after those people took sharp pay cuts, and also since the flying public is dealing with appalling service levels. That says it all, unnecessary amounts of money are wasted and it will sooner or later backfire.
 
spartanmjf
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:02 am

According to an article in the Baltimore Sun last week, Southwest Airlines Co.'s chief executive Gary Kelly received a salary and benefits package of $976,021 in 2006 as the airline posted its 34th continuous year of profitability.

I guess the cost of living is higher in Chicago.......

Does anyone see something here?

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Mainland
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:03 am

Respectfully, cry me a river. I bet somebody just totaled up some numbers and failed to read any of the background or notes in the filing. Here's the real news:

Tilton took paycuts himself during the bankruptcy:

"At the time the agreement was entered into with Mr. Tilton, Mr. Tilton’s annual base salary was set at $950,000. After the Company entered bankruptcy, the base salaries of all executive officers, including Mr. Tilton’s, were reduced several times. As a result of these reductions, at the beginning of fiscal year 2006, Mr. Tilton’s annual base salary was approximately $606,000. Under the September 29, 2006 amendment to Mr. Tilton’s agreement, his base salary was increased to $850,000 effective September 1, 2006."

He also lost all his stock:

"In 2002, Mr. Tilton received options to purchase 650,000 shares of Company common stock. These options were never exercised by Mr. Tilton and were cancelled upon the Company’s emergence from bankruptcy protection."

"In 2002, Mr. Tilton received 100,000 restricted shares of Company common stock. Upon the Company’s emergence from bankruptcy protection, these shares were cancelled without payment."

The $20 million award USA Today speaks of is for 545,000 shares. It appears United granted him 822,000 option shares as well. So, basically, he's getting his stock back, plus some extra.

It's important to note the numbers USA Today quotes for the options and stock awards are a bit inflated

"In order to realize gain upon exercise of these stock options equal to the amounts set forth in this column, the executives would need to exercise them at a stock price of approximately $57 a share."

UA trades below $40 currently.

And they fail to mention that part of the $839,028 shown in the table was never given to Tilton:

"Amounts disclosed in the Non-Equity Incentive Plan Compensation column represent the aggregate amounts earned in 2006 under the Company’s 2006 Success Sharing Program, Key Employee Retention Program, and the Profit Sharing Program, respectively. Mr. Tilton voluntarily waived his rights to a payment under the KERP which was otherwise due him in 2006."

While I'm not trying to outright defend United's compensation policy, when put into a little bit of context it's not quite as bad as this reporter would like you to believe.
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Curiousflyer
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:18 am

Quoting Mainland (Reply 8):
when put into a little bit of context it's not quite as bad as this reporter would like you to believe.

This actually is right, on 2nd thought, given all the amounts he forfeited earlier, this remains reasonable.
 
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jedward
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:20 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 3):
I come from a blue collar family, but come on. This is how any industry works. You want a good CEO that will stick around, you have to pay him. Tilton managed to do what everyone was saying he couldn't - turn the sinking ship around and get it floating again. Yeah there's still work to do, but most people were writing UA off the day they filed Ch 11.

I doubt anyone will disagree that good people are hard to find, especially for upper management, but do you really think Tilton did UAUA $40,000,000 worth of service?

Do you really think he reorganized UA's cost structure enough to withstand the next economic downturn?

Do you really think he really positioned UA to update their fleet to remain competitive in the market?

Do you really think he has a plan for UA short of merger event?

With regards to executive compensation, Kelly, Kellner and Grinstein have taken their respective airlines through hard times yet their compensation is far short of Tilton's. Moreover, their companies seem far better poised to deal with the challenges the market will throw at them.

I can understand the argument good people require good compensation. I can understand the argument UA had to have a strong leader, visionary and pioneer to guide them through the troubling times post 9/11. But based on UA's industry competitors can you seriously believe in that Tilton's compensation - and job performance - is in check with the 'normal' levels of his peers?
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JayDub
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:33 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 5):
Read the original post....

Employees also received $11 million in profit sharing for 2006 and $1.1 billion in stock and cash when the carrier exited bankruptcy.

My apologies for not reading that correctly. I just get a little worked up when it comes to executive compensation.
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F9Animal
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:46 am

Tilton did an awful job. He kept UA in bk forever, and now he rewards himself at the expense of the employees paycuts. Sorry guys, you can argue all you want about Tilton's worth, but in reality, he is just another overpaid bum. I would have liked to have seen someone with airline skill come in when UA filed, and turned the airline around in a year. I bet someone like Bethune would have turned UA around in no time, and deserved every penny of $40 million.

Just my opinion of course. It was beyond painful to watch the employees of UA suffer.
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COewrAAtysAZ
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:49 am

Whatever you Tilton supporters say, NO ONE, let me say that again, NO ONE is worth $40 million IN WHATEVER WAY IT COMES. I don't care if your Tilton, Derek Jeter, Peyton Manning... NO ONE is worth $40 million.

I mean, come on... A CAR AND DRIVER? Hell, when you're making $40 million why can't you just by the Benz and drive it yourself? You guys are ridiculous if you think that type of salary and benefits is actually justifiable.

[Edited 2007-03-27 18:51:53]
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FriendlySkies
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:08 am

Maybe I should clarify my original position. I don't think anyone is worth $40 million...hell, I don't think anyone is worth $500,000 a year. Nobody needs that much money.

Unfortuantely, that's what these guys get paid. United needed someone to come in an turn them around. Tilton wasn't the best choice, but he was the best option they had. Everyone was running away, but Tilton gave up a very nice position at Texaco to give UA a shot. He took a huge pay cut compared to what he was making over there.

If you want to blame someone here, blame UA's board. They gave Tilton this package, he didn't ask for it. Yeah he took it, but show me an example of a CEO who wouldn't. Good old Gordo had no problem taking that nice package from CO, did he?

And you can say all you want about what so and so could have done better. But you know what? They didn't. Yeah, the bankruptcy was messy and painful (I have several family members at UA, trust me, I know all too well how painful it was), but in the end, UA is still here, 55,000 people still have jobs, and slowly UA is gaining back the strength it once had.

And how the hell do any of you know what UA's plans for the future are? Tilton isn't going to just release the business plan to the public. So they aren't buying new airplanes...maybe they decided to improve the core product (which they have been doing btw) first, slow down growth, and focus on streamlining the business before trying to expand.

Carl Ichan and Stephen Wolfe are crooks. Glenn Tilton is just your everyday CEO.

[Edited 2007-03-27 19:11:40]
 
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TVNWZ
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:14 am

Quoting JEdward (Reply 10):
With regards to executive compensation, Kelly, Kellner and Grinstein have taken their respective airlines through hard times yet their compensation is far short of Tilton's. Moreover, their companies seem far better poised to deal with the challenges the market will throw at them.

I can understand the argument good people require good compensation. I can understand the argument UA had to have a strong leader, visionary and pioneer to guide them through the troubling times post 9/11. But based on UA's industry competitors can you seriously believe in that Tilton's compensation - and job performance - is in check with the 'normal' levels of his peers?

In business it is very reasonable to assume that you are going to pay a guy a lot more money to manage a bankrupt company than you are to run a successful company. More risk equals more reward. If you don't assume that you will get executives who may not be as good and the company will go Chapter 7.

No, Tilton deserves every penny. Probably more.
 
Ctermua
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:18 am

Those who think Tilton deserves 40 Million, probably don't work for United. I can tell you, that in no time in the last ten years has morale been lower. We have what I consider the worst management in the business. That's from top to bottom. The mediocrity bordering on complete ineptness of our middle managers down to the supervisor and then down to the SD postition is pathetic. The bottom of the barrel is now running the daily operations of United. Anyone with any experience and/or aptitude doesn't want the job, so what you get is chaos.
Now, if Tilton had a healthy company in his hands, then maybe it would be a different story. If his employees felt empowered and APPRECIATED. If he and his management could see the absolute dissconnect between the employees and the company, which wholy affects the customer service they claim is paramount, and at least try to improve on it, I'd give him some credit. The few at the top are so consumed with takeovers and treaties and the "numbers" they have no idea that thier company is sick to the core.
At this point, I think most United employees would rather him take his 40 million and leave. Bring on someone/anyone who can return the soul of this airline, cause it's gone missing.
 
ord
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:20 am

Quoting COewrAAtysAZ (Reply 13):
Whatever you Tilton supporters say, NO ONE, let me say that again, NO ONE is worth $40 million IN WHATEVER WAY IT COMES. I don't care if your Tilton, Derek Jeter, Peyton Manning... NO ONE is worth $40 million.

I disagree. Somebody gets paid what their market value is worth. If a baseball team makes $300 million, then a salary of $40 million (over several years) is not out of line. If a movie earns $500 million at the box office, then the stars should get $40 million. If somebody was not worth $40 million then nobody would pay them that.

From today's Chicago Tribune:

"While Tilton's golden parachute might seem excessive to some, it is in line with the exit packages for CEOs at Boeing Co. and other high-profile Chicago-area firms, said compensation expert Don Delves.

'Like it or not, that's the market for this size company, one of the largest in Chicago,' Delves said. 'Frankly, that's not an eye-popper anymore.'"

Further, Tilton is not getting all the money now. See below for more from the article:

"United Airlines Chief Executive Glenn Tilton, an advocate of industry consolidation, stands to gain as much as $36.3 million if United sells or merges, a federal filing shows.

Most of Tilton's take would come from cashing in 436,000 restricted shares and 657,600 options, which he could redeem immediately if United's ownership changes. Tilton received the securities after United emerged from bankruptcy last year, and they otherwise would vest over a four-year period."
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:31 am

Quoting COewrAAtysAZ (Reply 13):
NO ONE is worth $40 million.

Any person is worth what the market is willing to pay. If a man creates a business and gives many people jobs that did not exist before he is worth whatever he can make. Likewise, if a man takes a failing business and rescues it saving thousands of jobs he likewise is worth whatever he makes. This business of saying that no one is worth a given sum is socialism, pure and simple, and it always stifles innovation and enterprise, leaving the pie smaller for everyone. Bear in mind that Tilton's $40 million is not in his mattress; most of it is in UA stock which will be continuing to provide jobs. Whatever cash Tilton takes will be spent on things that provide jobs. In 1993 the US decided to slap a luxury tax on yachts; the result was that the rich stopped buying yachts, the tax raised essentially no money, and many marinas laid off many workers. The simple fact is that the rich are the ones who create jobs.
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flydreamliner
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:41 am

You think $40 million is that bad? Let me give you an example from my hometown. Minnetonka, Minnesota based insurance giant United Healthcare's recently departed CEO William McGuire paid himself $125 million a year, and when he departed the company, he had been paid $1.6 billion in compensation (much of that in stock options). Now when you are paying stiff insurance premiums, remember that is going to pay Bill McGuire 1.6 billion USD. $40 million isn't much, especially not after just turning around one of America's biggest companies at the brink of total collapse.

Quoting COewrAAtysAZ (Reply 13):
Whatever you Tilton supporters say, NO ONE, let me say that again, NO ONE is worth $40 million IN WHATEVER WAY IT COMES. I don't care if your Tilton, Derek Jeter, Peyton Manning... NO ONE is worth $40 million.

If a guy comes up with the strategy that makes or saves a company billions, keeps tens of thousands of people employed instead of out of work because the company went belly up, I'd say they were worth it. Just like a guy who comes up with an invention that changes the lives of millions of people is worth it..... they get a tiny fraction of the overall benefit of their work, is it sometimes a lot of money, yes. Is he the only one responsible for the turnaround, hell no. Everyone at UA worked hard on that, but no one person had more impact on the turnaround than tilton, and without a ceo like him, it never would have happened, even with all the hard work of the rank and file UA employees, so like it or not, the $40 million was well worth it. $40 million to make or break saving a company that employees tens of thousands? sounds like an easy decision to me.
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deltadc9
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:48 am

Quoting JayDub (Reply 1):
The rich get richer, the poor get poorer. Nothing new there.

These "successes" are earned on the backs of the rank and file employees, yet the execes reap the rewards. Sickening.

There should be laws against executives taking bonuses and stock options until those who have taken paycuts to make the success of the business happen have been repaid or had their original wages reinstated.

There are laws like that, in CHINA.....

Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 6):
40mm is still scary, even if part of it is not guaranteed. CEOs nowadays make insane salaries, they should not be earning more than a 100 times what their average co-worker gets, particularly after those people took sharp pay cuts, and also since the flying public is dealing with appalling service levels. That says it all, unnecessary amounts of money are wasted and it will sooner or later backfire.

This is the kind of thinking that makes me wonder if anyone really understands business on this site.

What the workers earn is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. The CEO has one job, to increase shareholder wealth. THE CEO WORKS FOR THE SHAREHOLDERS. He is not a "co-worker", and he has no obligation to them at all. Americans are free to quit any time they want if they dont like what is going on, this is an employment at-will environment anyway despite the unions.

If he makes them richer, he deserves a fair cut. That is the system that has resulted in an economy 10 times larger than any other economy in the world except Japan.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
jacobin777
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:04 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 12):
Tilton did an awful job. He kept UA in bk forever, and now he rewards himself at the expense of the employees paycuts. Sorry guys, you can argue all you want about Tilton's worth, but in reality, he is just another overpaid bum. I would have liked to have seen someone with airline skill come in when UA filed, and turned the airline around in a year. I bet someone like Bethune would have turned UA around in no time, and deserved every penny of $40 million.

Just my opinion of course. It was beyond painful to watch the employees of UA suffer.

...."BK forever"? He played the hands he was dealt....he took a company where many pundits were stating UA was going to go chapter 7.....

Quoting COewrAAtysAZ (Reply 13):
Whatever you Tilton supporters say, NO ONE, let me say that again, NO ONE is worth $40 million IN WHATEVER WAY IT COMES. I don't care if your Tilton, Derek Jeter, Peyton Manning... NO ONE is worth $40 million.

He didn't write himself a salary with a blank check...if someone comes to your door with a check for $40 million, are you going to say "I don't deserve it, take it back"?

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 14):
I don't think anyone is worth $500,000 a year. Nobody needs that much money.

....I would think twice about that statement actually......

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 18):
Any person is worth what the market is willing to pay. If a man creates a business and gives many people jobs that did not exist before he is worth whatever he can make. Likewise, if a man takes a failing business and rescues it saving thousands of jobs he likewise is worth whatever he makes. This business of saying that no one is worth a given sum is socialism, pure and simple, and it always stifles innovation and enterprise, leaving the pie smaller for everyone. Bear in mind that Tilton's $40 million is not in his mattress; most of it is in UA stock which will be continuing to provide jobs. Whatever cash Tilton takes will be spent on things that provide jobs

 checkmark 

Quoting Ctermua (Reply 16):
Those who think Tilton deserves 40 Million, probably don't work for United. I can tell you, that in no time in the last ten years has morale been lower. We have what I consider the worst management in the business. That's from top to bottom. The mediocrity bordering on complete ineptness of our middle managers down to the supervisor and then down to the SD postition is pathetic. The bottom of the barrel is now running the daily operations of United. Anyone with any experience and/or aptitude doesn't want the job, so what you get is chaos.
Now, if Tilton had a healthy company in his hands, then maybe it would be a different story. If his employees felt empowered and APPRECIATED. If he and his management could see the absolute dissconnect between the employees and the company, which wholy affects the customer service they claim is paramount, and at least try to improve on it, I'd give him some credit. The few at the top are so consumed with takeovers and treaties and the "numbers" they have no idea that thier company is sick to the core.
At this point, I think most United employees would rather him take his 40 million and leave. Bring on someone/anyone who can return the soul of this airline, cause it's gone missing.

...if you don't like your job, you can always leave..that fact of the matter is like it or not, tens of thousands still have a job......that is something which might not have happened had it not been for Tilton..

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 19):
sounds like an easy decision to me.

 checkmark 
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DC8FanJet
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:19 am

If you take the time to actually read the UA annual report ( which isn't easy), you'll find that the numbers that are in the headlines are (1) over several years if ever, and (2) absolute best case, i.e. $57 a share stock price which is $20 more than what UAUA is at today. In real, cash money, Tilton is making far less than he was before United went into Ch. 11,
and the big numbers only happen if the company does really, really well, and then he should get paid big money.
 
DC8FanJet
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:21 am

Also, everything in Tilton's pay package was approved by the bankruptcy judge, and the unions, and was public long ago, no secrecy involved.
 
deltadc9
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:22 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 21):
He didn't write himself a salary with a blank check...if someone comes to your door with a check for $40 million, are you going to say "I don't deserve it, take it back"?
Great post!

Actually it is simpler than that. If someone tells you that if you take a job and increase the wealth of the person you are working for by 10%, you get 1% for yourself. That 1% could be a nickel, it could be 100 million. Doesn't matter, the deal is the deal. A lot of risk is involved, and anyone who has taken any business knows, the higher the risk, the higher the reward.

If someone else offers 2%, or 1% and 10 million guaranteed, how is that unfair? Its simply supply and demand. CEOs that can navigate away from CH 7 are in high demand.

I think what we see here is a combination of ignorance and a perverted form of class envy.

[Edited 2007-03-27 20:23:21]
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
COewrAAtysAZ
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:50 am

Many of your responses are the cruel reality of what the American business culture has become. Shame on you all.

Another fact is that many of you who post hear don't work for an airline. It's easy for you all to talk the way you do. And before anyone says, "well you can change your job", that's not the point. There is a certain sense of knowledge, a certain feeling, attitude that you only get when you work there. With that said, I don't expect many of you to agree with some of the comments made by airline employees here. I think we need our own private forum.

Quoting Ctermua (Reply 16):
Those who think Tilton deserves 40 Million, probably don't work for United. I can tell you, that in no time in the last ten years has morale been lower. We have what I consider the worst management in the business. That's from top to bottom. The mediocrity bordering on complete ineptness of our middle managers down to the supervisor and then down to the SD postition is pathetic. The bottom of the barrel is now running the daily operations of United. Anyone with any experience and/or aptitude doesn't want the job, so what you get is chaos.
Now, if Tilton had a healthy company in his hands, then maybe it would be a different story. If his employees felt empowered and APPRECIATED. If he and his management could see the absolute dissconnect between the employees and the company, which wholy affects the customer service they claim is paramount, and at least try to improve on it, I'd give him some credit. The few at the top are so consumed with takeovers and treaties and the "numbers" they have no idea that thier company is sick to the core.
At this point, I think most United employees would rather him take his 40 million and leave. Bring on someone/anyone who can return the soul of this airline, cause it's gone missing.

Good point on the appreciation. For those of you who truly follow the airline industry, listen to some of the audios of the JP Morgan conference in NYC. Listen to UAL, how many times do they state their appreciation for employees? Then listen to CAL and AA... there is the difference and thats why UAL is a bad place to work for and their management doesn't deserve anything they get. Did they save the company, yes, they saved A company. They didn't save UAL.
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deltadc9
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:05 am

Quoting COewrAAtysAZ (Reply 25):
Many of your responses are the cruel reality of what the American business culture has become. Shame on you all.

Nothing has changed in 232 years.....

Quoting COewrAAtysAZ (Reply 25):
Another fact is that many of you who post hear don't work for an airline. It's easy for you all to talk the way you do.

As if other industries and companies dont have the same exact situation and employees that dont want to leave for the same reasons. Please...
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
jacobin777
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:13 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 24):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 21):
He didn't write himself a salary with a blank check...if someone comes to your door with a check for $40 million, are you going to say "I don't deserve it, take it back"?
Great post!

LoL..thanks....... Smile

Quoting COewrAAtysAZ (Reply 25):
Many of your responses are the cruel reality of what the American business culture has become. Shame on you all.

Shame for what?  confused  The best deserve the most money..it works in all facets of life/business...there are a few which probably don't deserve the money they are making, but there are a few who deserve more...it balances itself out..

..as long as Tilton et.al didn't do anything illegal, I see no problem with him getting that much potential money.....especially when he was given that much money...

Its not like a player who signed a contract then sits out for more money....

He had a business plan to get UA out of bk (probably chapter 7), he's gotten UA out through work, vision, etc..and now he's getting his due compensation, which for the umpteenth time, was given to him....

Quoting COewrAAtysAZ (Reply 25):

Another fact is that many of you who post hear don't work for an airline. It's easy for you all to talk the way you do.

....but many here work for other companies/services where this does happen..its not unique in aviation.....

Quoting COewrAAtysAZ (Reply 25):
I think we need our own private forum.

......a google search would help... Smile
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:22 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 3):
This is getting really old...

 checkmark 

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 12):
I bet someone like Bethune would have turned UA around in no time, and deserved every penny of $40 million.

Do me a favour, this is the guy that stated after after UA filed CH11 that the company has AIDS and is dieing a slow death....that commet coming at a dinner in front of hundreds. What a complete prat Baboon was, he of course buckled and apologised but a lot of UA employees were furious with himand rightly so. Also, this is the same guy that walked away from CO with a massive compensation package, and IIRC then went on to say that UA would make a good merger partner with.........yep, you guessed it UA!!

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 19):
If a guy comes up with the strategy that makes or saves a company billions, keeps tens of thousands of people employed instead of out of work because the company went belly up, I'd say they were worth it. Just like a guy who comes up with an invention that changes the lives of millions of people is worth it..... they get a tiny fraction of the overall benefit of their work, is it sometimes a lot of money, yes. Is he the only one responsible for the turnaround, hell no. Everyone at UA worked hard on that, but no one person had more impact on the turnaround than tilton, and without a ceo like him, it never would have happened, even with all the hard work of the rank and file UA employees, so like it or not, the $40 million was well worth it. $40 million to make or break saving a company that employees tens of thousands? sounds like an easy decision to me.

Your so right. These people complaining on here would be looking to hang whoever came in to do the job that Tilton did. He made tough decisions that made the difference between emerging from CH11 or going to CH7...........maybe thats what a lot of people would have preferred, although I doubt most of the employees would have done!
 
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:23 am

A 40 million dollar salary when employees barely make ends meets, and the company struggles? Makes me want to turn Communist and drag him off to a gulag, and im a republican! Really this is ridiculous. NOTHING justifies a salary that large. Capitalism sucks. its also nice to know many robber Baron capitalists here have no social ethics regarding equal distribution of wealth. What angers me is the fact that he earns this much, through whatever means when the company is struggling. no one person despite how "good" a job is solely responsible for saving an airline certainly not management or the CEO's. I cant believe there are people defending this guy's earnings. This is what sucks about the USA, land of opportunity for the wealthy only. I wont rant too much off topic, but this is crap. I have family members in the airline industry who work three times as long and hard than he does and get paid 1/10000 what he does. Saving an airline is a team effort by the employees and (though i hate to admit it) management. no one person deserves this much of a reward.
 Angry  Angry

Workers of the world Unite !  redflag 

My 40 million cents
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jedward
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:11 am

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 15):
In business it is very reasonable to assume that you are going to pay a guy a lot more money to manage a bankrupt company than you are to run a successful company. More risk equals more reward. If you don't assume that you will get executives who may not be as good and the company will go Chapter 7.

Valid points but I think in this case you're favoring a macroscopic viewpoint when a microscopic one is required. Tilton prevented UA from going Ch 7 - and he did so through a with a record breaking stint in the bankruptcy court. My complaint against Tilton is his vision for UA is identical for his vision for CVX; he wants to merge. I'm not say merging an airline is always a futile purist, rather desperately looking externally for a solution (merging) as a way to treat the ills of a company is a poor substitute for taking a long hard look in the mirror and trying to fix things from within.

UA has a distinguished legacy, coveted route network, star spot in the Worlds global transport industry and many good folks working for it (from the rampers to the EVPs). I find it astonishing Tilton has not been able to harness and utilize UA's assets better to improve it from within.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 21):
He didn't write himself a salary with a blank check...if someone comes to your door with a check for $40 million, are you going to say "I don't deserve it, take it back"?

…He had a business plan to get UA out of bk (probably chapter 7), he's gotten UA out through work, vision, etc..and now he's getting his due compensation, which for the umpteenth time, was given to him...



Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 14):
If you want to blame someone here, blame UA's board. They gave Tilton this package, he didn't ask for it. Yeah he took it, but show me an example of a CEO who wouldn't. Good old Gordo had no problem taking that nice package from CO, did he?

Well said FriendlySkies! Tilton's compensation was ultimately approved by the board (as well as his appointment). If memory serves (and please correct me if I'm mistaken) Gordon took a $34,000,000 million retirement option when leaving CO. $27,000,000 of that was from his retirement package and $7,200,000 was from his last year's salary, bonus and benefits. Yet the $34,000,000 CAL paid Bethune bought them more than the $40,000,000 paid to UAUA paid to Tilton. Gordon was with CO for 10 years (94-04 if memory serves) and turned the ailing companies prospects, cleaned house, boosted moral, re-focused and provided a long-term business plan.

Furthermore the same year Gordon left CO Kellner and Smisek chose to forego their bonuses.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 19):
Let me give you an example from my hometown. Minnetonka, Minnesota based insurance giant United Healthcare's recently departed CEO William McGuire

Your scope seems off in this argument. Yes CEO's - especially the good ones - can move between industries but comparing the American Healthcare industry to the American Airline Industry for executive compensation is a kin to the apple vs. an orange. The business are inherently different; they face different challenges and obstacles and different markets. The point here is not to comment on CEO pay in general but rather to focus on CEO (as well the entire C suite) pay within the context of the American Airline industry.

That said, relative CEO pay in other industries is not a factor to be ignored; after all a company does not want to have their senior management poached. Labor needs to understand this and accept the fact senior management will always be paid a significant amount more. But again, relatively within the industry I’d suggest Tilton’s pay is out of proportion in regards to what he’s done at UA.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 19):
If a guy comes up with the strategy that makes or saves a company billions, keeps tens of thousands of people employed instead of out of work because the company went belly up, I'd say they were worth it.

Yes. But I fear Tilton has not generated a long-term viable strategy for UA. Travel demand is up, Asia flights are full (and profitable) but what will happen to UA when the next downturn occurs, demand falters and yields become depressed. What will Tilton do then? Send Ted to PVG? (which I say in jest)

I agree with you 100% in that UA needed (and needs) good management, and such people are not cheap. But at $40,000,000 UA overpaid for an overvalued product.
As Christ died to make men holy, let men die to make us rich. --S.C.
 
COewrAAtysAZ
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:10 am

Quoting JEdward (Reply 30):
Gordon took a $34,000,000 million retirement option when leaving CO. $27,000,000 of that was from his retirement package and $7,200,000 was from his last year's salary, bonus and benefits. Yet the $34,000,000 CAL paid Bethune bought them more than the $40,000,000 paid to UAUA paid to Tilton. Gordon was with CO for 10 years (94-04 if memory serves) and turned the ailing companies prospects, cleaned house, boosted moral, re-focused and provided a long-term business plan.

I don't approve of that either.
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jacobin777
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:23 am

Quoting JEdward (Reply 30):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 21):
He didn't write himself a salary with a blank check...if someone comes to your door with a check for $40 million, are you going to say "I don't deserve it, take it back"?

…He had a business plan to get UA out of bk (probably chapter 7), he's gotten UA out through work, vision, etc..and now he's getting his due compensation, which for the umpteenth time, was given to him...



Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 14):
If you want to blame someone here, blame UA's board. They gave Tilton this package, he didn't ask for it. Yeah he took it, but show me an example of a CEO who wouldn't. Good old Gordo had no problem taking that nice package from CO, did he?

Well said FriendlySkies! Tilton's compensation was ultimately approved by the board (as well as his appointment). If memory serves (and please correct me if I'm mistaken) Gordon took a $34,000,000 million retirement option when leaving CO. $27,000,000 of that was from his retirement package and $7,200,000 was from his last year's salary, bonus and benefits. Yet the $34,000,000 CAL paid Bethune bought them more than the $40,000,000 paid to UAUA paid to Tilton. Gordon was with CO for 10 years (94-04 if memory serves) and turned the ailing companies prospects, cleaned house, boosted moral, re-focused and provided a long-term business plan.

Furthermore the same year Gordon left CO Kellner and Smisek chose to forego their bonuses.

...when Bethune took over in 1994, payscales/situations were different..in 1980 when Gary Carter (Mets and Toronto) was getting paid a $million/year, people thought it was downright crazy and "no one deserves that much".....players make that much in a week (or less).. spin 

Quoting JEdward (Reply 30):
Your scope seems off in this argument. Yes CEO's - especially the good ones - can move between industries but comparing the American Healthcare industry to the American Airline Industry for executive compensation is a kin to the apple vs. an orange. The business are inherently different; they face different challenges and obstacles and different markets. The point here is not to comment on CEO pay in general but rather to focus on CEO (as well the entire C suite) pay within the context of the American Airline industry.

.....its not off the scope of argument....Tilton came from a much more lucrative industry......not to mention, less unions, less hassle, etc.....

Quoting JEdward (Reply 30):

I agree with you 100% in that UA needed (and needs) good management, and such people are not cheap. But at $40,000,000 UA overpaid for an overvalued product.

.....for the 40th million time...its the word "potential"..no one is giving him a check for $40 million.....

...football players get paid for "incentives" also....1,000 yards rushing and compensation goes up by $million, etc.

Quoting JEdward (Reply 30):

Yes. But I fear Tilton has not generated a long-term viable strategy for UA. Travel demand is up, Asia flights are full (and profitable) but what will happen to UA when the next downturn occurs, demand falters and yields become depressed. What will Tilton do then? Send Ted to PVG? (which I say in jest)

I think UA will do fine in the next downturn.....they still may have higher costs, but they have slashed quite a bit the past 6-7 years...

Make no mistakes about it, in 2000-2001, UA was a disaster....it looked as if UA was basically months, if not weeks from "folding up shop"...IIRC about "who would get those Pacific and LHR slots because UA is going to be folding soon"......
"Up the Irons!"
 
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:48 am

Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 29):
Capitalism sucks. its also nice to know many robber Baron capitalists here have no social ethics regarding equal distribution of wealth.

Who ever promised "equal distribution of wealth"? It has never worked and never will. Wealth is created by individuals who sacrifice and work on a dream in the hope of big rewards. Tell them that they will then have to share those rewards with everyone irregardless of their efforts and they won't bother. This idea has been tried; google the Soviet Union. It just doesn't work, and what happens is nobody does anything that they don't have to; nobody innovates, nobody improves anything, and everybody suffers. I have worked hard all my life and never had much extra, but I do not envy those who have made millions by innovating or by leading companies to better things, I admire them. I spent 2-1/2 years installing and repairing automated gates (which are only owned by rich people) and got to meet a number of rich people in the process. Most of them were thoroughly decent people, and had earned their success. My hat is off to them.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:54 am

i never liked Tilton, but we must give him credit. he left his job at Texaco/Chevron and took a job with an airline in debt. he then did what others thought he couldn't do, he brought UA out of bankruptcy and got the airline in a profitable path. he may be getting paid 800k a year, but look what he has done for the airline.


fl370
 
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:57 am

hot topic.
i sat next to tilton on a ord to lga flight and spoke with him. i'm just a 1k, not a UA employee. it was only months after 911. he seemed like a great guy who ernestly wanted to keep united from going the way of pam am.

CEO's in the usa make millions and millions- thats the way it is. and the little people take the hit, but the idea is they keep their jobs. look at enron, those bastards truely ruined the lives of thousands. while 40 million seems like a lot there are other ceo's who have done less and made more. i am not condoning his salary but its typical. i work for a tiny company of 850 people. our ex ceo walked away with over 17 million in stock. he turned the company around, and kept us alive-- and thats the kind of pay they get. they must face wall street every 3 months to report earnings to the stock holders and that is hard work and the stress can kill them in the end. i wouldnt touch that job for 40 million no way, no how.

its darwin out there and all we can do is hope that the guys/gals who make the tens of millions keep us in jobs.

whats worse to me is when a ceo sinks a company and still walks away with millions.

what i wish tilton had done for UA for his 40 mil was to make UA america's version of singapore and repay all the pensions.
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F9Animal
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:59 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 21):
...."BK forever"? He played the hands he was dealt....he took a company where many pundits were stating UA was going to go chapter 7.....



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 21):
He didn't write himself a salary with a blank check...if someone comes to your door with a check for $40 million, are you going to say "I don't deserve it, take it back"?

Of course I would cash that $40 million dollar check and start living it up right away. I would easily forget the employees who suffered major paycuts over a reeealllly expensive bottle of bubbly. To make it even easier to forget, I would drink the whole bottle. Nothing would be more satisfying than having someone sacrifice their pay for my wealth!
 dollarsign   dollarsign   present   shhh 
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jacobin777
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:04 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 36):
Of course I would cash that $40 million dollar check and start living it up right away. I would easily forget the employees who suffered major paycuts over a reeealllly expensive bottle of bubbly. To make it even easier to forget, I would drink the whole bottle. Nothing would be more satisfying than having someone sacrifice their pay for my wealth!

...that's why I've stated "potential" ad nauseam......

...maybe you should aspire to become F9's next Chair/CEO and walk away with a few $million... that way many A.netters could call you "a greedy, money hungry bugger who cares for nothing except his wallet meanwhile the frontline employees are having a hard time making ends meet"... Wink
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F9Animal
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:10 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 37):
...that's why I've stated "potential" ad nauseam......

...maybe you should aspire to become F9's next Chair/CEO and walk away with a few $million... that way many A.netters could call you "a greedy, money hungry bugger who cares for nothing except his wallet meanwhile the frontline employees are having a hard time making ends meet"... Wink

LMAO! I doubt F9 would let me run the show, but I bet I would have a heck of a chance at US! LOL!

In reality though, I bet if I had that kind of money in my account, I would let greed takeover.
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F9Animal
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:12 am

Darn!! I tried to edit my last post and could not! Just before the flaming begins, I meant no disrespect to US by the way! I love US!  Smile
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
JRDC930
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:26 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 33):
but I do not envy those who have made millions by innovating or by leading companies to better things, I admire them.

I dont want to get too off topic, but and i know this is debatable, what qualifies as "innovation" or what level of work merits such high paychecks? From an ethical/moral standpoint i think its wrong to be paid so much when millions are starving for what i would consider a job that does not merit 40 million. there in is the eternal problem, how much is some ones labor worth? Im not against earning wealth and im not totally against capitalism. Back to the topic however, i dont think its a prudent move to accept so much money to help an airline that IS BANKRUPT, thats like beating a dead horse to try and revive it. Makes no sense. And especially does not look good in the public's eyes. This is why i have no sympathy for legacies like United. they cut their services and amenities to "cut costs" and their CEO's get paid 40 million. thats a big UNNECESSARY cost i would say. Im not an economist, im not an expert, im just a humble college student trying to earn a living, and working hard, who doesn't understand how the CEO of a BANKRUPT airline thinks its a good idea to pay himself more. Talk about ego centric.

My Opinion.
P.S. Those who lie cheat and steal also create wealth.

[Edited 2007-03-28 03:28:40]
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gigneil
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:35 am

The lack of gratitude on people's part is shocking.

This man left the most profitable business in the world, completely safe and sound, to save as many jobs and people as could be.

$40m is a damn bargain for that.

NS
 
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:11 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 41):
The lack of gratitude on people's part is shocking.

This man left the most profitable business in the world, completely safe and sound, to save as many jobs and people as could be.

$40m is a damn bargain for that.

I think employee work and sacrifices and pay cuts played a role also. do they get 40 million as well? Tilton is not a god. He didnt pull UAL out all by his glorious self.
U.S. Legacy carriers,STILL leaders in lowering industry standards...
 
F9Animal
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:17 am

Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 42):

I think employee work and sacrifices and pay cuts played a role also. do they get 40 million as well? Tilton is not a god. He didnt pull UAL out all by his glorious self.

Nor did he do much to the airline itself. I have not seen much in the way of restructure or fixing up the routes. I also have not seen much in the way of UA rebranding. If anything, he spent a majority of the time trying to pick wallets. Sorry, but I can't give him $40 million bucks worth of credit.

The real credit goes to the employees of UA. Tilton deserves a pat on the rear, and the employees deserve a big thank you for keeping UA alive.
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JAL777
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:21 am

Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 42):
I think employee work and sacrifices and pay cuts played a role also. do they get 40 million as well? Tilton is not a god. He didnt pull UAL out all by his glorious self.

I guess employee work and sacrifices put United in bankruptcy in the first place?

Amazing how its management's fault when a company is in the crapper but the employee's hard work when its doing well.
 
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:22 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 41):
The lack of gratitude on people's part is shocking.

This man left the most profitable business in the world, completely safe and sound, to save as many jobs and people as could be.

$40m is a damn bargain for that.

I think too many people are comparing Glenn Tilton to his counterpart at DL, Gerald Grinstein. Keep in mind Grinstein made a fortune as a Seattle based corporate attorney back in the 1960s & 70s, as Western CEO, as well as Burlington Northern Railroad CEO. He has worked for the last three years with very little remuneration, and then this past week told the DL Directors; "Give My Bonus Away!"
I think DL got a damn bigger bargain for that talent than UA did!  biggrin 
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jacobin777
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:28 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 38):

LMAO! I doubt F9 would let me run the show, but I bet I would have a heck of a chance at US! LOL!



Quoting F9Animal (Reply 38):
In reality though, I bet if I had that kind of money in my account, I would let greed takeover.

LoL...but hey, you never know....maybe you are cut out to run the show...AA's Arpey started out at AA from the "bottom"...worked his way up, got his pilots license as well as MBA, and now look at him, running one of the largest carriers in the world.... Wink

.....maybe you won't be one of those who let "greed" took over.... Smile

Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 40):
P.S. Those who lie cheat and steal also create wealth.

......are you suggesting Tilton "lied and cheated"?

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 41):
The lack of gratitude on people's part is shocking.

This man left the most profitable business in the world, completely safe and sound, to save as many jobs and people as could be.

$40m is a damn bargain for that.

..not me mate... Wink

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 32):
.....its not off the scope of argument....Tilton came from a much more lucrative industry......not to mention, less unions, less hassle, etc.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:40 am

Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 42):
I think employee work and sacrifices and pay cuts played a role also. do they get 40 million as well?



Quoting F9Animal (Reply 43):
The real credit goes to the employees of UA. Tilton deserves a pat on the rear, and the employees deserve a big thank you for keeping UA alive.

Agreed, undoubtedly employee hard work and scarifies helped keep UA away from Ch7 filing... and as such they have been rewarded by $1.1billion in stock and cash when the airline exited bankruptcy(as per the original post) in addition to and more importantly keeping their jobs!

Another round of profit/success sharing checks is due out early April, so the company continues to share across work groups as per agreements made during the Ch11 process, under the same terms Mr Tilton and other senior managers receive their bonuses.

Ultimately, as has been mentioned here many times, in our capitalist system renumeration whether a janitor, CEO, athlete or any other type of worker is simply based on supply and demand. There are only a finite number of executives which happen to have very transferable skills into other industries. If it takes, $10, 40, or even $100 million to attract and retain such folks airlines must provide such incentive pay otherwise find themselves with ever shrinking talent pool. Like it or not, its the law of the free enterprise and Western economies.
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COewrAAtysAZ
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:45 am

Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 42):
I think employee work and sacrifices and pay cuts played a role also. do they get 40 million as well? Tilton is not a god. He didnt pull UAL out all by his glorious self.



Quoting F9Animal (Reply 43):
Nor did he do much to the airline itself. I have not seen much in the way of restructure or fixing up the routes. I also have not seen much in the way of UA rebranding. If anything, he spent a majority of the time trying to pick wallets. Sorry, but I can't give him $40 million bucks worth of credit.

The real credit goes to the employees of UA. Tilton deserves a pat on the rear, and the employees deserve a big thank you for keeping UA alive.

Well said, both of you. It took more than just one guy to do the dirty work that took place for three years.
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RE: Tilton Makes Almost $40 Million At UAL

Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:56 am

Quoting COewrAAtysAZ (Reply 25):
Many of your responses are the cruel reality of what the American business culture has become. Shame on you all.

Another fact is that many of you who post hear don't work for an airline. It's easy for you all to talk the way you do. And before anyone says, "well you can change your job", that's not the point. There is a certain sense of knowledge, a certain feeling, attitude that you only get when you work there. With that said, I don't expect many of you to agree with some of the comments made by airline employees here. I think we need our own private forum.

So let's catalog your position:

(1) Business culture is cruel and most of us are part of the problem.
(2) It's easy for us to talk because none of us have ever made very little money or changed jobs voluntarily or otherwise. (Changing jobs is a huge point. Changing jobs is *the* best way to gain money and power in my industry.)
(3) "It's an airline thing. You wouldn't understand."
(4) But those who understand should have their own little enclave to which they may retreat. (Just so long as that enclave doesn't have anybody who is well-paid, right? I can see it now. "The means tested oppressed airline employees commiseration forum.")

I take it that you always refrain from proffering opinions about matters to which you are not directly connected. You should, to be consistent with your position above. I can't figure out why you object to high salaries for executives, since you've never been an executive and you believe that experience is necessary for true comprehension. It's easy for you to talk because you have never run a company nor know how. That said, I don't expect you to agree with the work or compensation of CEO's.
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!

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