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UnitedTristar
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Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:24 am

http://yahoo.reuters.com/news/articl...26_L03265962&type=comktNews&rpc=44

It looks like BD and UA are looking to help battle an open LHR.

Personally I would love to see them take BA/AA down a notch. BD has a great product that would do very well from LHR to the United States.

I also think that open skies would actually strengthen UA's hand at LHR by opening restrictions on established partners.

Overall a Win/Win for UA!

-m



[Edited 2007-04-04 01:31:03]
 
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OA260
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:33 am

Yeah it would be good, they work well already in Star Alliance and I always fly BD to LHR and connect to UA which I think is the best J class to be offered by a US carrier across the pond.

Good news indeed.
 
jfk777
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:42 am

What if BMI flew to JFK and was handled by United at Terminal 7 which just happens to be the BA terminal at JFK. BMI would really be in BA's face then. BMI should fly a couple times daily to JFK as their first USA gateway.
 
Danny
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:46 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 2):
What if BMI flew to JFK and was handled by United at Terminal 7 which just happens to be the BA terminal at JFK. BMI would really be in BA's face then. BMI should fly a couple times daily to JFK as their first USA gateway.

I think IAD is more obvious choice with endless connection possibilities on UA. I don't see much point going head to head with more than dozen BA/AA LHR-JFK flights.
 
UnitedTristar
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open S

Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:48 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 2):
BMI should fly a couple times daily to JFK as their first USA gateway.

Indeed the problem is the lack of equipment.

Could they possibly reconfigure/upgrade some A319's with intl C seats for more frequency's (say 5 per day) to establish them selfs in the market and build routes while aircraft are on order.

This could work for both NYC and BOS

Quoting Danny (Reply 3):
I think IAD is more obvious choice with endless connection possibilities on UA

The only problem with that is that UA has well established the route. Why overdo it on one route when you can try to push into another.

-m



[Edited 2007-04-04 01:50:12]
 
Feroze
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:49 am

Terminal 7 is, if I remember correctly, owned by British Airways. Not much chance of BD fitting in there!
 
UnitedTristar
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:52 am

Quoting Feroze (Reply 5):
Terminal 7 is, if I remember correctly, owned by British Airways. Not much chance of BD fitting in there!

But if UA holds the lease on the gates, how would BA be able to prevent them?

-m

 airplane 
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:53 am

This very much sounds like the UA/LH Atlantic Alliance where all revenues are shared and flights are cross sold without regard to operating carrier.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
UnitedTristar
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open S

Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:55 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 7):
This very much sounds like the UA/LH Atlantic Alliance where all revenues are shared and flights are cross sold without regard to operating carrier.

my thoughts exactly!

I wonder if BD will join UA/LH or if BD/UA will set up something for LON alone?

-m



[Edited 2007-04-04 02:01:15]
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:56 am

Wait...

Didn't UA already publicly announce their support of open skies?
 
UnitedTristar
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:58 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 9):

Didn't UA already publicly announce their support of open skies?

yes...they did...but now they are preparing to gear up for it.

-m

 airplane 
 
RDUDDJI
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:04 am

Quoting UnitedTristar (Thread starter):
t looks like BD and UA are looking to help battle an open LHR.

Personally I would love to see them take BA/AA down a notch. BD has a great product that would do very well from LHR to the United States.

I also think that open skies would actually strengthen UA's hand at LHR by opening restrictions on established partners.

I wouldn't call it UA fighting open skies (...yet anyway). This just appears to be UA taking advantage of O.S. to strengthen its alliance with another *A partner much like the LH revenue sharing agreement. Even together, they are still much weaker than BA/AA at LHR. Maybe half the size...if that.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 1):
connect to UA which I think is the best J class to be offered by a US carrier across the pond.

By far.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:17 am

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 11):
I wouldn't call it UA fighting open skies (...yet anyway). This just appears to be UA taking advantage of O.S. to strengthen its alliance with another *A partner much like the LH revenue sharing agreement.

I agree I think the initial post was worded poorly. It sounded as if BD and UA were against Open-skies. It turns out they are planning on making a serious fight for LHR.

The second part sound spot on as well. UA and LH already have a very close relationship. This sounds like a natural expansion of the same plane UA has with LH to BD.
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FreequentFlier
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:20 am

This is excellent news. I always associated BD as one of the weaker carriers in the *Alliance. However, if they were to acquire some long range aircraft and strengthen their alliance specifically with UA, then the sky is the limit for BD! (pun intended).

Now if only * could do a little more with Spanair (a horrible name for an airline if I've ever heard one - think Spam).
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:21 am

Here is the DOT docket.
http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/pdf100/463965_web.pdf

Appear UA and BMI are simply following up on a 2002 DOT ruling granting them full anti-trust immunity contingent on a broader open skies deal and lifting of Heathrow restrictions.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
jamesontheroad
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:51 pm

From this morning's Times: http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...ctors/transport/article1610369.ece

Quote:
Nigel Turner, chief executive of bmi, said: “This paves the way to an alliance; it does not guarantee it. We want to put in place all the steps now to fully take advantage of open skies.”

*j*
 
UAL777UK
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:45 pm

This is great news but not unexpected.

From the UK, JFK is a massive attraction, you only need to look at the OW carriers for that, evevn before you factor in VS.

I just cannot see that when Bmi gets the metal that they wont open up the JFK route for Star on this route. I appreciate it might be a bloodbath what with CO and DL likely to enter the frame, but what with the O&D alone and the feed that certainly Bmi has this end, surely they have to seriously look at it.

Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 4):
The only problem with that is that UA has well established the route. Why overdo it on one route when you can try to push into another.

 checkmark 

perhaps Bmi could look at BOS?
 
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LTU932
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:55 pm

Pardon the ignorant question, but would this ATI that BD and UA are seeking together be something similar to what KL and NW are doing?
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
helvknight
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:01 pm

Quoting Feroze (Reply 5):
Terminal 7 is, if I remember correctly, owned by British Airways. Not much chance of BD fitting in there!

Given that BD are *A, if they couldn't get into T7 what would be stopping them going into T1 with LH, LX and so on.

In the long term might UA move their flights into T1 as well to make it a Star terminal the same as NRT and so on?
I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member - Groucho Marx
 
zvezda
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:16 pm

A *A terminal at JFK would be great. Being able to stay airside to make connections (except international to domestic) would be even better.
 
UAL777UK
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:36 pm

Quoting Helvknight (Reply 18):
In the long term might UA move their flights into T1 as well to make it a Star terminal the same as NRT and so on?

That gets my vote!
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Wed Apr 04, 2007 7:28 pm

Finally!

I would love to have BD flying the pond from LHR, at last Big grin

They have a good long haul product, I hope this deal gets the go ahead  Smile



Lee
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
AA757200
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Wed Apr 04, 2007 7:37 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 1):
UA which I think is the best J class to be offered by a US carrier across the pond.

You obviously don't get out much. If you think the most dated seats in the sky and lackluster service translates into the best J, then you are right. I suggest you try Max Jet or Eos.
 
cornish
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:19 pm

So a carrier with no-transtlantic operations out of LHR is merging ops with one that does. Nice lot of spin about doing something that will be bleedin' obvious but hardly earth shattering news.

Bmi have a few long haul aircraft, and as other carriers are finding, finding suitable additional aircraft at present is extremely difficult. Obviously they may just pull the MAN ops as a quick solution to providing an LHR Transatlantic service, or more logically they deepen the existing code share with UA - which in effect is what they are doing. Hardly the earth shattering announcement that some above are making it out to be.

If they are then it is a good sensible decision given bmi's limited long haul lift and helping boost UA's sales presence in the UK.

Its hardly going to strike fear into BA and AA just yet. Even if bmi did find the equipment for a NYC service, it is hardly going to strike fear into the multi frequency BA, AA or VS. If anything CO will be viewed a much bigger potential threat on that market given that they can provide so much more than O&D at the NYC end than UA ever could.

Bmi simply doesn't have the size and scope to turn this into a KL/NW or UA/LH type operation. But what it does have is a lot of slots that UA could readily use for additional services. Lose a BD LBA service and turn it into a UA DEN service for example.

not really a surprising announcement, but nothing particularly earth shattering giving they code share so extensively already any way.

Having said all that as a Star FF, any additional Star Transatlantic flights out of my local airport will please me no end - and i hope Bmi can find the equipment to do so, as they have a far superior product to UA.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
UAL777UK
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:40 pm

Quoting AA757200 (Reply 22):
You obviously don't get out much. If you think the most dated seats in the sky and lackluster service translates into the best J, then you are right. I suggest you try Max Jet or Eos.

Errrrr, keep with the thread, we are talking about Ops out of LHR not any other London Airport!
 
jfk777
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:38 pm

BMI could get creative. There are many A330 world wide, for the right price a few could be leased for a few years. Emirates has some A332 they are interested in replacing which could be for lease. In Asia there are A330 all over the place, Malaysia, Thai or a Chinesse airline might spare a half dozen. Certainly Lufthansa could help BMI with all those Airbus A330/A340 they have if the routes to the USA do go off as planned.
 
cornish
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:45 pm

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 25):
BMI could get creative. There are many A330 world wide, for the right price a few could be leased for a few years. Emirates has some A332 they are interested in replacing which could be for lease. In Asia there are A330 all over the place, Malaysia, Thai or a Chinesse airline might spare a half dozen. Certainly Lufthansa could help BMI with all those Airbus A330/A340 they have if the routes to the USA do go off as planned.

They are like hens teetha tthe moment. All the operators i've been involved with later that are looking to expand long haul have spoken of the difficulty in getting the right aircraft.

Remeber bmi have been busy leasing their aircraft themselves because the fee they were getting from Virgin Nigeria was so lucrative. I can't see bmi paying big bucks to get enough aircraft that they would need for a sutiable level of service right now. further down the line maybe.....

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 25):
In Asia there are A330 all over the place, Malaysia, Thai or a Chinesse airline might spare a half dozen.

Any spare are getting snapped up by the highest bidders. I can guarantee you that bmi would NOT be a highest bidder.

The aircraft market right now for the aircraft they need is not in their favour. Its why they ended up with the god-awful Arkefly 767 for the Saudi routes....
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
Humberside
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:36 pm

Im surprised US isn't included in this - or will a separate US/BD deal happen latter?
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bmie70
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:46 pm

Quoting Cornish (Reply 26):
I can't see bmi paying big bucks to get enough aircraft that they would need for a sutiable level of service right now. further down the line maybe.....

Nigel Turner has said that they will buy 3xA330 a year to expand under open skies. Initial destinations likely to be ORD, CLT and NYC

Source: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,,2041903,00.html
 
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OA260
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:03 pm

Quoting AA757200 (Reply 22):
You obviously don't get out much

I have heard good and bad reports about Maxjet and EOS and to be honest I couldnt be bothered going to STN or LTN .

I get out plenty mate !!! UA still has a better J class in my opinion . You fly what you want and I will fly the way I want!!!
 
UAL777UK
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:06 pm

Quoting Bmie70 (Reply 28):
Nigel Turner has said that they will buy 3xA330 a year to expand under open skies. Initial destinations likely to be ORD, CLT and NYC

It says CLT or NYC. I cant see the point of one flight a day to add to UA's mimimal of three to ORD, yes to NYC, but that needs to be at least 2 a day to even begin to compete with the others massive frequencies!
 
elmothehobo
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:20 am

... So when are American and British Airways applying for ATI?
 
gigneil
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:44 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 25):
There are many A330 world wide, for the right price a few could be leased for a few years.

There are none. Period. Anywhere.

NS
 
Lite
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Thu Apr 05, 2007 5:17 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 32):
There are none. Period. Anywhere.

bmi's deputy cheif executive has recently been quoted as saying that the airline is looking to acquire rather than be acquired by another airline, so perhaps the airline is out to purchase an Airbus 330 operator that could easily fit into their business model. The only airline that sprung to my mind was Monarch, as their parent company had been scouting potential merger partners when the big four began merging into the big two earlier in the spring. Monarch's Airbus 321 and 330 aircraft are compatible with bmi's fleet, Monarch Scheduled operate two bases which are consistent with bmibaby's, plus Monarch have a wealth of slots at LGW where lower yielding routes could be transferred to rather than LHR which could be for BMED, domestic trunk and trans-atlantic routes.
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panam330
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:09 am

Maybe this means there will again be a *A connection of two of the largest cities on the planet, New York and London. It would be nice for passengers to have that option.

EDIT: Used airport codes instead of city names.

[Edited 2007-04-04 23:12:48]
 
BA747400
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:16 am

Well if they do start flying to JFK, that would be, and correct me if i'm wrong, the ONLY Star Carrier to fly JFK-LHR direct. Think of the possiblities!
 
behramjee
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:32 am

As far as their USA flights are concerned, I would suggest to BMI not to fly to ORD, JFK & EWR as those 3 markets are heavily overcrowded and fiercely competitive with BA-VS-AA-UA offering multiple daily flights.

I would instead advice it to use its 3 A 332s on flights to niche markets in USA where competition is less and yield potential might be higher such as LHR-DFW, LHR-IAH and LHR-IAD. Previously IAH and DFW couldnt be flown nonstop from LHR due to the Bermuda II treaty but it now can with the open skies announcement.
 
kunta67
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:53 am

Would it be possible that BD supplements UA on existing LHR routes from ORD or IAD and helps UA free up a couple of planes so UA can open up the DIA-LHR route or add service to another destination? I think that would help out both parties a lot and help out the *A.
 
UAL777UK
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:32 pm

Quoting Kunta67 (Reply 37):
Would it be possible that BD supplements UA on existing LHR routes from ORD or IAD and helps UA free up a couple of planes so UA can open up the DIA-LHR route or add service to another destination? I think that would help out both parties a lot and help out the *A.

No matter how UA do it, they will be flying DEN-LHR come March/April of next year, that IMHO is a cert.
 
BCAL
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Thu Apr 05, 2007 5:21 pm

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 25):
There are many A330 world wide, for the right price a few could be leased for a few years.

Monarch Airlines has been trying for years to acquire some A330s on the secondhand market, as the production line for new aircraft at Toulouse is fully booked for many years ahead. There were only a handful, available for lease at grossly inflated terms, but even so none of these were RR trent powered or suitably configured for their operations. As there were no A330s, MON had little option other than to lease a 767 which was not ideal as this was an entirely new aircraft for their fleet.

Quoting Lite (Reply 33):
The only airline that sprung to my mind was Monarch, as their parent company had been scouting potential merger partners when the big four began merging into the big two earlier in the spring

Monarch has not been seeking a potential merger partner but when rumours started to circulate that First Choice was for sale, Monarch's parent company entered the bidding. After BD, Monarch is the longest established UK airline still under the same ownership and the same management. It has seen its larger direct competitors (e.g. Dan-Air, Air Europe, Laker etc) fall by the wayside or being gobbled up by larger rivals (e.g. Britannia, My Travel, First Choice) over the years, yet still is both financially strong and profitable. Their success is probably due to the fact that Monarch is quick to adapt to changing markets and if they have weathered storms over the past forty years and remained independent, there is no reason why they should not continue to do so.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
Lite
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RE: Bmi And UA Looking To Team Up To Battle Open Skies

Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:47 pm

I wasn't necessarily suggesting that bmi are out to buy Monarch, more that their deputy CEO has stated the airline is interested in acquiring another airline to speed up their expansion programme, and was trying to find airlines that fit reasonably into their business model.
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