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ConcordeBoy
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Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:45 am

Saw an overhead of NRT and got to wondering:
Why the rather large displaced threshold, as seen here on the lower-left?

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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ma XiaoDing



Doesn't appear to be any abnormally-large obstruction, but perhaps the camera isn't panned far enough to witness such?

Anyone?
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LTU932
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:50 am

If it isn't for obstacle clearance, it could well be for noise abatement reasons. NRT is, from what I know, a airport that has been plagued by NIMBYs for many years (another example of that being RW34R/16L, which never could be fully completed because part of it is obstructed by a private property, who's owner has refused to give it up), so there could be many reasons for that displaced threshold.
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BreninTW
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:09 am

Looking at that pic -- am I right in saying that NRT only has one runway for heavies? The runway in the upper right corner looks rather too short for heavies.

If I am right, I'm rather surprised, I expected NRT to have at least two runways, probably three.
 
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centrair
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:10 am

One of the most interesting google maps out there is of NRT.

NRT google map

Check out the lower right side of the images. You will see screwy taxi ways and a house in the middle of a taxiway.

Though the one runways is finally being extended which will open new slots, it still will not allow NRT to be an ideal airport for one of the largest cities in the world.
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
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LTU932
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:24 am

Quoting Centrair (Reply 3):
Though the one runways is finally being extended which will open new slots, it still will not allow NRT to be an ideal airport for one of the largest cities in the world.

I believe the plan was to extend 34R further to the north, am I correct?
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PanAm747
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:28 am

The Japanese government does not have the power of Eminent Domain - meaning that in the case of Narita, the sweet potato farmer did not want to sell, and his case was championed by many in the Japanese parliament.

The plan had originally been for two ultra-long runways so that slowing down could be at a VERY relaxed pace. However, having to build around the farm means that the second runway is too short for the long-distance heavies. It can be used for smaller planes, but unless that farmer decides to sell, don't expect to see it ever extended.

This arrangement, however, does keep NRT slot-controlled, making routes there very profitable.
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centrair
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:29 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 4):
I believe the plan was to extend 34R further to the north, am I correct?

Yes. It was suppose to go south but after 20 odd years of fighting they decided to just go north.
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airbazar
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:53 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 1):
NRT is, from what I know, a airport that has been plagued by NIMBYs for many years (another example of that being RW34R/16L, which never could be fully completed because part of it is obstructed by a private property, who's owner has refused to give it up),

I wouldn't exactly qualify those farmers as NIMBY's, but that's just me. My personal interpretation of a NIMBY would be someone who moves to the area AFTER the airport has been built and them opposes any expansion/improvements on the grounds that it will negatively affect their lifestyle. In the case of NRT these people were living there long before the airport and simply refused to uproot their life.
 
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zeke
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:09 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Thread starter):
Why the rather large displaced threshold, as seen here on the lower-left?

The ground does slope down slightly to 34L that you see the displaced threshold on, and there is a small tower with an elevation of about 640' at about 4.5 nm from the runway just off the centreline, the landing distance is still 3250m/10663ft.

Quoting Brenintw (Reply 2):
Looking at that pic -- am I right in saying that NRT only has one runway for heavies? The runway in the upper right corner looks rather too short for heavies.

The 330/340 and 772/773 (not 773ER or 747/744) can use that runway for regional flights (i.e. CX520/521 (HKG-NRT-HKG) for arrival or departure, it is still over 2180m/7150ft long.
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Mir
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:16 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 8):
The 330/340 and 772/773 (not 773ER or 747/744) can use that runway for regional flights (i.e. CX520/521 (HKG-NRT-HKG) for arrival or departure, it is still over 2180m/7150ft long.

Can 747s land on it?

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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:17 am

Quoting Centrair (Reply 3):
it still will not allow NRT to be an ideal airport for one of the largest cities in the world

...one of?
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HiJazzey
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:22 am

The question to me is, why did they start construction before all the requisite land was bought?
 
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LTU932
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:26 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
Can 747s land on it?

The 747 could land on 34R/16L, but it would be a much tighter deal than at SXM in terms of rollout distance. The advantage of NRT's 34R/16L to SXM's 09/27 is that at NRT, 34R/16L has an ILS on at least one side of the runway, which should make the landings more precise than on a visual or VOR/DME approach like with 09/27 at SXM.
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:29 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
Can 747s land on it?

If heavies can land at Runway 11/29 (6,800ft) at KEWR, i dont see the problem with landing a 747 in 7,500 ft unless if the rate of descent needs to be higher due to terrain which i dont think such a problem exists around narita. However, everytime i have been to Narita, i have noticed long lineups of 10-12 heavies just waiting for takeoff clearance.
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Carpethead
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:25 pm

Only a few more parcels of land before the cross-wind runway can be built.
If that happens, good-bye slot restrictions. Check back in 2015 or later.

When NRT first opened, there were frequent attacks on the airport by the vigilant opposition groups.
The attacks usually consisted of lofting mortars, though no attacks have happened in the last few years. These attacks have occured into the mid-1990s, so until then it was very hard to take photographs outside NRT.
The opening was delayed six months because they heavily damaged the control tower.

There's even a big sign up near the taxiway leading to the short runway 'DOWN WITH NARITA.' (at least a couple years back, if it's still there).
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:30 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 3):
One of the most interesting google maps out there is of NRT.

NRT google map

Check out the lower right side of the images. You will see screwy taxi ways and a house in the middle of a taxiway.

Though the one runways is finally being extended which will open new slots, it still will not allow NRT to be an ideal airport for one of the largest cities in the world.

NRT seems to never have been the ideal solution for Tokyo. Since NRT has been so incredibly unpopular, and has no room to grow, is far from the city, and I suspect the land it is on has some value at this point, why not close it down and replace it with a new airport in Tokyo harbor, similar to the new airports NGO and KIX? This could likewise replace HND, which - if i understand correctly, is kept open for domestic flights (plus flights to Seoul Gimpo) because it is so close to the city. A new Tokyo Harbor airport could replace both.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 10):
Quoting Centrair (Reply 3):
it still will not allow NRT to be an ideal airport for one of the largest cities in the world

...one of?

Depending on how you define it (how much of its metropolitan area you consider) some consider Mexico City to be larger.
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kaitak744
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:36 pm

What about the crosswind runway? That now looks long enough to handle regional flights as well. Will it ever be activated?
 
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centrair
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:58 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 15):
A new Tokyo Harbor airport could replace both.

First Tokyo pisses off the farmers of Narita...country bumpkins in the eyes of Tokyo at the time.
Next....piss off the fishermen who put up a good fight to stop HND's new runway. Can you imagine how they would react to a whole new airport?

I think that if NRT can get the crosswind runway and 34R/16L finished it will do well for the airport. If they could increase domestic connections to KIX and NGO and build those up, even better. It would be like having extra gates and runways.

Another idea is why not make a high-speed train that connects HND-NRT without stops. It would be on the Security side. A person could fly into HND, make a transfer to NRT and fly out from there without a huge hassle. Bags checked all the way through.

But my personal choice would be to see HND reopened to regular international service outside of the Gimpo and soon Hangqiao flights. Can you imagine flying SFO-HND on UA? Awesome!
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:03 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 15):
A new Tokyo Harbor airport could replace both.

...you do realize that it'd have to be an airport with immediate capacity surpassing that of Atlanta, with significant growth potential factored into the equation as well?

Very doubtful to see such a thing happen.
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kaitak744
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:51 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 17):
Another idea is why not make a high-speed train that connects HND-NRT without stops. It would be on the Security side. A person could fly into HND, make a transfer to NRT and fly out from there without a huge hassle. Bags checked all the way through.

A train would requiring purchasing even more land wouldn't it?. If they could get the land, your idea would be excellent.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 17):
But my personal choice would be to see HND reopened to regular international service outside of the Gimpo and soon Hangqiao flights. Can you imagine flying SFO-HND on UA? Awesome!

HND however can be an irritating airport as well. It is almost smack in the middle of Tokyo, creating tons of air and noise pollution over Tokyo. Expanding it to replace NRT would create a lot of fuss from the environmentalists.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:18 pm

.......getting back to the actual topic at hand, does anyone here actually have the documented reason for NRT's rather large displacement?
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zeke
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:22 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 20):
.......getting back to the actual topic at hand, does anyone here actually have the documented reason for NRT's rather large displacement?

as previous stated ...

Quoting Zeke (Reply 8):
The ground does slope down slightly to 34L that you see the displaced threshold on, and there is a small tower with an elevation of about 640' at about 4.5 nm from the runway just off the centreline, the landing distance is still 3250m/10663ft.
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zvezda
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:23 pm

How old is the farmer?
 
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:32 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 22):
How old is the farmer?

He's 124. But his 95 year old son has vowed to continue his father's fight! wink 
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Carpethead
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:34 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 19):
HND however can be an irritating airport as well. It is almost smack in the middle of Tokyo, creating tons of air and noise pollution over Tokyo. Expanding it to replace NRT would create a lot of fuss from the environmentalists.

Why is it irritating that an airport be in middle of Tokyo. Because its user friendly and getting there would take less time and cost less.
The only reason, HND doesn't have any departures over the city is because the airspace west of HND is controlled by the US military at Yokota.
It's like trying to operate ORD with no departures going eastbound.

The 'environmentalist' movement in Japan is benign compared to those in Europe and US.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 15):
A new Tokyo Harbor airport could replace both.

1. Piss off people near Narita. (Weird but it will happen)
2. Need to build at least five or six runways like ATL or DFW or add another one or two runways at HND without interrupting nearby sea lanes.
Such a huge airport built in south Tokyo Bay or out in the Pacific Ocean has been studied previously but it would cost enormous amount of money at the expense of convenience.
 
BA
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:17 pm

What's the story of the unfinished intersecting runway? It looks very odd.

Also, any particular reason why Japan does not have eminent domain?
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worldtraveler
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:32 pm

all of the people that comment about how much airport capacity Japan is adding need only look at NRT to understand why. when you get the chance to pour concrete at an airport, take it... and that applies just about anywhere in the world.
 
zvezda
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Sat Apr 07, 2007 1:59 pm

Quoting BA (Reply 25):
Also, any particular reason why Japan does not have eminent domain?

Because people have property rights. If the airport wants to buy it, they need to offer a price that is mutually acceptable. Forcing someone to sell their property at a price to which they have not agreed is stealing.
 
Carpethead
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:27 pm

Quoting BA (Reply 25):
Also, any particular reason why Japan does not have eminent domain?

Obviously somebody, when drafting the post-WW2 constitution, forgot it.
Hence the current predicament at NRT plus some other highways and rail tracks are in the same situation as well.
 
BA
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:31 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 27):
Because people have property rights. If the airport wants to buy it, they need to offer a price that is mutually acceptable. Forcing someone to sell their property at a price to which they have not agreed is stealing.

There is no need to get defensive. It was just a simple question. This isn't the place to discuss the ethics of eminent domain anyway...

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 28):
Obviously somebody, when drafting the post-WW2 constitution, forgot it.
Hence the current predicament at NRT plus some other highways and rail tracks are in the same situation as well.

Thanks for the info. I have to say, this aerial photo of NRT really caught me off guard!
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spacecadet
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:31 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 19):
A train would requiring purchasing even more land wouldn't it?. If they could get the land, your idea would be excellent.

I'm not sure they'd need to purchase any land. The Narita Express train already runs from Narita to Tokyo and Shinagawa, where passengers can connect to the Keikyu line to Haneda. I don't know if this has ever been done before, but if JR and Keikyu could work something out to co-operate a train between Narita and Haneda (or JR operate it on leased tracks), they'd probably only need to build the connection at Shinagawa.

Still, seems like a solution in search of a problem. I don't know how many people need to make the connection between the two airports.

I don't think it's practical to run a train on the security side. That would require a completely dedicated train on its own secure tracks making no stops at all between airports, and this is not an insignificant distance we're talking about - it's longer than most whole commuter lines run.

Narita was really a stupid place to put an airport. At least they've given up the farce of trying to call it "New Tokyo International Airport" at this point - it's just Narita Airport now.
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ikramerica
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:59 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 27):
Forcing someone to sell their property at a price to which they have not agreed is stealing.

Eminent domain requires the government to pay market price, but prevents a landowner from holding out for more money than their property would have been worth if the airport wasn't going to be built. It was created so that government AND OLD: Guangzhou - Baiyun (CAN / ZGGG) (closed), China">CAN'T steal property, but also can buy it for public use as long as they are paying a market price.

The reason for this is simple.

Take a freeway for example.

The property right next to a freeway is usually of the least value in an area due to noise (at least, residential). But without eminent domain laws, that land would become the MOST expensive due to speculation against the government wanting to widen the freeway. Since the government would have to buy at the gouge price, the public would be shafted as a whole, as all the taxpayers would be forced to pay extortion. And yet one can reasonably expect in the future that the government will eventually want to widen the freeway.

It's not about stealing anything but about fairness AND the greater good.

And since the USA wrote the Japanese constitution, I do wonder why it's not in there.
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SkyexRamper
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:02 am

Because you need more room to take off than you do to land.
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N1120A
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Sun Apr 08, 2007 6:06 am

Quoting Brenintw (Reply 2):
Looking at that pic -- am I right in saying that NRT only has one runway for heavies?

One runway for heavies doing long hauls. Shorter hauls can use the shorter runway and 767s can do fairly long hauls off it.

Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
Can 747s land on it?

Yes

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 10):
...one of?

One of. Mexico City is larger. Tehran is smaller.

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 19):
A train would requiring purchasing even more land wouldn't it?.

The Japanese seem to like building tunnels.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 27):
Because people have property rights.

And those people form a government to take care of certain functions, including regulation of land use.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 27):
Forcing someone to sell their property at a price to which they have not agreed is stealing.

No it isn't. The power of eminent domain exists to regulate land use for the good of the people.

Quoting BA (Reply 25):
Also, any particular reason why Japan does not have eminent domain?

I would guess that a lot has to do with the formerly imperial nature of the state.

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 28):
Obviously somebody, when drafting the post-WW2 constitution, forgot it.

Actually, it seems left out rather deliberately given that the Japanese Constitution is a near mirror image of the US Constitution.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:12 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 33):
Mexico City is larger.

...not anymore, by several measures

Quoting N1120A (Reply 33):
The power of eminent domain exists to regulate land use for the good of the people.

Communist-like bullsh!t that I can't believe the USA still embraces, particularly the lunatic recent SCOTUS ruling
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JAL777
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:39 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 14):
There's even a big sign up near the taxiway leading to the short runway 'DOWN WITH NARITA.' (at least a couple years back, if it's still there).

It's still there.
 
N1120A
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:18 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 34):
Communist-like bullsh!t that I can't believe the USA still embraces, particularly the lunatic recent SCOTUS ruling

Karl Marx wasn't even a twinkle in his daddy's eye when emminant domain was written into the Constitution and Kelo was supported by middle of the road justices. The true left and true right in this country agree on how wrong that decision is.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:06 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 36):
Karl Marx wasn't even a twinkle in his daddy's eye

...hence the "-like"
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malaysia
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:12 am

I have landed on both 16L/R and 13L/R aboard a 747

The most fun thing before the 2nd runway was built was that ATC would clear landing while a take off roll was still being done.

One 747 would start its roll and the landing 747 would fly over the the threshold at the sametime and land while the taking off plane was still on the runway. (Sounds risky, but I saw it many times at NRT)

generally the landing plane was going slower and slower while the taking off plane was going faster and faster so both planes were technically over the runway simultaneously to speed up departures and arrivals usually during the early evening.
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Aaron747
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:16 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 15):
Depending on how you define it (how much of its metropolitan area you consider) some consider Mexico City to be larger.

If you consider greater Tokyo's commute shed of Saitama, Kanagawa and Chiba prefectures, the Japanese government considers the overall metropolitan region to have ~36,000,000 people. That's substantially more than Mexico City.
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Carpethead
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:00 pm

Quoting Malaysia (Reply 38):
have landed on both 16L/R and 13L/R aboard a 747

There is no runway 13L/R at NRT. Using Runway 16L/34R with a 747 is not allowed, hence impossible.

Quoting Malaysia (Reply 38):
The most fun thing before the 2nd runway was built was that ATC would clear landing while a take off roll was still being done.

Still done today.

Quoting Malaysia (Reply 38):
One 747 would start its roll and the landing 747 would fly over the the threshold at the sametime and land while the taking off plane was still on the runway. (Sounds risky, but I saw it many times at NRT)

So long as two aircraft didn't occupy the runway, no problem. Such occurrences happen everywhere in the world on a single runway with both operations; however not with 747 after 747 like NRT.
This usually happens when the previous arriving aircraft didn't clear the runway as fast as ATC would have preferred eating up the distance between the next arrival and the take-off time of the departing aircraft.
 
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malaysia
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:58 am

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 40):
here is no runway 13L/R at NRT. Using Runway 16L/34R with a 747 is not allowed, hence impossible.

Yeah 34 lol I used 13 instead of 34, no such runway would exist as 13/16 unless it was some horseshoe shape.

I forgot, It was a 777 I was on when going to 34R.
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atmx2000
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:19 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 31):
And since the USA wrote the Japanese constitution, I do wonder why it's not in there.

The US military instituted land reform that gave peasants titles to land they tilled. Perhaps they thought it wasn't a good idea to the give the government the power to take that land and do with it as they saw fit, including reestablishing the feudal system.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
phollingsworth
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:26 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 34):
Communist-like bullsh!t that I can't believe the USA still embraces, particularly the lunatic recent SCOTUS ruling



Quoting N1120A (Reply 36):
Karl Marx wasn't even a twinkle in his daddy's eye when emminant domain was written into the Constitution and Kelo was supported by middle of the road justices. The true left and true right in this country agree on how wrong that decision is.

While eminent domain can be used nefariously, it also has significant benefits. The issue becomes whether fair value is exchanged and there is a process that needs to be followed, and arguably could be improved. As to the Kelo ruling, my guess is that neither of you have read the legal basis for the ruling. It basically states that Federal government has no position to rule on what is essentially a state constitution issue. If the citizens of a particular state don't like how eminent domain is used in that state they are free to change the law. This was exactly the outcome in many states, though most of the politicians and media in the states either don't care to point this out or are to stupid to realize it.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:34 am

Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 43):

While eminent domain can be used nefariously, it also has significant benefits. The issue becomes whether fair value is exchanged and there is a process that needs to be followed, and arguably could be improved. As to the Kelo ruling, my guess is that neither of you have read the legal basis for the ruling. It basically states that Federal government has no position to rule on what is essentially a state constitution issue. If the citizens of a particular state don't like how eminent domain is used in that state they are free to change the law. This was exactly the outcome in many states, though most of the politicians and media in the states either don't care to point this out or are to stupid to realize it.

The 14th amendment would require the same standard that applies to the federal government would apply to the state governments, that being the land is for public use.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
ConcordeBoy
Topic Author
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RE: Why The Huge Threshold Displacement At NRT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:56 am

Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 43):
It basically states that Federal government has no position to rule on what is essentially a state constitution issue.

...and yet it's done just that. So much for that point  Yeah sure
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