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nycfuturepilot
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How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:08 am

A lot of posts on here mention banning passengers but I was wondering what steps airlines take to ensure that these passengers do not get on their planes? I would assume that they have blocks against frequent flyer numbers and addresses during reservations but if an individual were to book using a different address and different credit card number but still using the same name is there any way he could really be caught besides being recognized? Couldnt the individual even open a new frequent flyer account the same way and get flight rewards that way without anyone knowing?
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UALPHLCS
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:35 am

Well the easiest way is to lock that person out from the computer selling them a ticket.

If someone has done something serious enough to warrant a ban, then the airline has gathered enough information, probably at the same time as the police report was taken, to lock the computer from issuing a ticket under that name. In today's world it's a lot harder to travel under an assumed name so the person would be effectively banned.

I can tell you that no banned passenger ever got up to check-in with me. Although we where told many times about possible ticket fraud and the check-in was locked until an investigation was done with the person by a Supervisor. So even if the banned person got a ticket under their name somehow, reservations could restrict check-in until the identity was confirmed.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
lincoln
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:46 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 1):
Well the easiest way is to lock that person out from the computer selling them a ticket.

I can't imagine that this is effective -- For people like me yeah it would work (how many other KINGCLIBY/LINCOLNs are there? But how about Jim Smith? There can be dozens of Jim Smiths in any given city let alone the country so name alone isn't an effective key, and the other data that could be used to key to the specific individual in addition to name (e.g. phone number, address, etc.) is easy to get around -- i.e. using a cell or office number instead of home phone number, using a different credit card, listing a friend's address, opening a new FQTV account, etc.

There has to be a more reliable way, I would think.

Lincoln
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airlineecon
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:21 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 1):
If someone has done something serious enough to warrant a ban, then the airline has gathered enough information, probably at the same time as the police report was taken,

Are all bannings for serious criminal offenses? I could imagine an airline banning someone for cheating the frequent flyer program or cheating ticketing policies. But these offenses aren't criminal
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:24 pm

Quoting AirlineEcon (Reply 3):
I could imagine an airline banning someone for cheating the frequent flyer program or cheating ticketing policies. But these offenses aren't criminal

I agree, but then again the airline would have gathered all the information they needed to target the specific person. As a frequent flyer member they have address work address phone numbers email. Everything but the kitchen sink.

Frankly, I don't think airlines ban as often as the original poster thinks.

Secondly if it was for a criminal matter, the law would probably ban the person from the airline as well. A corporate restraining order if you like. In a fraud case it would be more up to the airline.

I wasn't claiming first hand knowledge. I never worked in reservations to know exactly what happens. But I never had a banned passenger get a ticket.

I did have a few possible ticket frauds flagged and restricted check-in though, so I assumed something similar could be done.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:12 pm

They obviously didn't do a good enough job in preventing Cat Stevens from purchasing a ticket, huh?  Silly
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eta unknown
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:22 am

I only ever had to ban one individual and this was in the days before internet reservations... old school way was to advise all the stations of the passenger name and search the passenger list of all flights- easier to do if a small international airline. Had this been in Europe or North America, then it wouldn't have been possible a thte local level- reservations would have had to tickered with the system.
 
ltbewr
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:26 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 5):
They obviously didn't do a good enough job in preventing Cat Stevens from purchasing a ticket, huh?

Indeed, no-fly lists, wether from the USA government or private lists may have or have erronious info. One problem is with those with common or similar names and backgrouns info as to the anti-terror 'no-fly' list as happened a number of times with resulting embarassment.

I am quite sure that with today's ID rules, an airline can put into their systems a no-fly list a person's drivers license number, passport number and other indentifying info that might be commonly used at check-in.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:50 am

Airlines run revenue integrity-style checks against both blacklists and whitelists, to check for passengers they don't want to accept, and to recognise VIP's etc who may be travelling fairly incognito that the airline would nonetheless like to treat well. Banned passengers would either be flagged for identity check at check-in, or have their reservation cancelled and their ticket refunded automatically.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
LASoctoberB6
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:04 am

what exactly is check-in restriction?
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binmonster
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:30 am

Urban Legend

Airlines offer transport to the public. Airlines can not ban a passengers.
Only a federal judge can do that. (no fly list)

Now airlines can refuse to transport passengers for a flight or even for the rest of the day.
An airlines can involuntary refund a passenger their fare, but that passenger could buy another ticket.
(having to buy a new ticket last minute can be quite costly)

Passengers are refused for various reasons, mainly due to safety. ( also for being drunk. smelly, behavior that is disruptive to other passengers, overweight and only purhasing one seat, etc.
 
AirScoot
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:12 pm

I have to call BS on it being an urban legend.. there are a number of ways - from name hits to blacklisting tickets - to keep passengers from flying.

It doesn't happen often.. but when it does, whoever got banned must have done something big.
 
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Tugger
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:59 pm

Where are the paranoiacs saying that the information given in this thread will give those who mean harm the knowledge on how to circumvent the system?

Also I do believe that that to ban a person from "air travel" as in ALL air travel it would have to be done by a judge somewhere but that an airline, like almost any business, has the "right to refuse service to anyone". So a particular AIRLINE may ban someone from their own flights but they certainly don't "spread the word" to other airlines to ban that person as well (at least not that I am aware of). Though I wouldn't be surprised that there is a process by which an airline can notify the federal agencies involved that a particular person is a hazard to aviation (with required documentation/proof) and that person is then added to the infamous "no fly" list. Normally a person gets on the no-fly list due to federal issues (lets say a brush with the law) not airlines.

Tug
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UALPHLCS
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:07 am

Quoting LASOctoberB6 (Reply 9):
what exactly is check-in restriction

At UA when you go to check-in a passenger, you get a pop up window that halts the check-in. You can't check-in that name until reservations unlocks it after you call them or UA security to investigate.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
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falstaff
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:20 am

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 2):
For people like me yeah it would work (how many other KINGCLIBY/LINCOLNs are there? But how about Jim Smith?

I found out there is and another Monaco, Bryan D. I called Boat US (boat owners association of the United States) a few years back because I had not received my new member card. When I told the lady my name she said "Monaco, Bryan D. of Lockport, NY". I said no, Monaco, Bryan D. of Taylor, MI. She looked closer and saw they had two members with the same name. I would like to hang out with that guy and have a beer.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 13):
At UA when you go to check-in a passenger, you get a pop up window that halts the check-in. You can't check-in that name until reservations unlocks it after you call them or UA security to investigate

What kinds of things will get you booted off an airline permanently?
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nycfuturepilot
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:44 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 8):
Banned passengers would either be flagged for identity check at check-in, or have their reservation cancelled and their ticket refunded automatically.

what happens though with popular names like Jim Smith? I'm sure you can't call security everytime a jim smith checks in.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 14):
What kinds of things will get you booted off an airline permanently?

mile high club

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 14):
I found out there is and another Monaco, Bryan D. I called Boat US (boat owners association of the United States) a few years back because I had not received my new member card. When I told the lady my name she said "Monaco, Bryan D. of Lockport, NY". I said no, Monaco, Bryan D. of Taylor, MI. She looked closer and saw they had two members with the same name. I would like to hang out with that guy and have a beer.

Actually one time I was reading the newspaper about Griffin H. Newman starring in some comedy act in NYC. I was shocked.
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falstaff
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:53 am

Quoting Nycfuturepilot (Reply 15):
mile high club

Really! That might explain the dirty look I got when my girlfriend and I went to the bathroom at the same time. Last October we were flying NW DTW-STL and both got up together and walked back to the heads. We both went into different heads, but as we were walking toward the back of the plane we got the evil eye from the FA.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:18 am

Quoting AirlineEcon (Reply 3):
Are all bannings for serious criminal offenses?

No. Bans can include former employees who were hostile toward the company. They can also include people who are disruptive to flight operations but who are never prosecuted.

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 5):
They obviously didn't do a good enough job in preventing Cat Stevens from purchasing a ticket, huh

Cat Stephens was on a TSA no-fly list, not an airline no fly list. And generally banned passengers have the ability to purchase a ticket. They just can't get a boarding pass.

Quoting LASOctoberB6 (Reply 9):
what exactly is check-in restriction?

When a PNR has been flagged by the Security Department of a potential banned passenger, either by the TSA or by the company, the PNR will not allow a check-in to proceed (bags tag and boarding pass to be issued) until it is determined whether or not the individual presenting himself is the actual banned passenger. You generally have to input their Driver's License number into their record and queue the record to Corporate Security for clearance. It is usually an automated process that takes less than 2 seconds. But if it's a hit, you get a response to call Corporate Security. They tell you the person is banned and you get a manager to handle the situation.
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jwenting
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:43 am

Quoting BinMonster (Reply 10):
Urban Legend

Airlines offer transport to the public. Airlines can not ban a passengers.

Now that IS an urban legend.
Airlines are private corporations, they have no requirement to transport anyone.

When you attempt to buy a ticket you're offering to enter into a contract with them under which they'll transport you and your belongings (up to specific restrictions set out in that contract) between specific destinations on specific times and dates.

The airline can refuse to enter that contract for any reason or no reason at all.

They are NOT public transport.
I wish I were flying
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:20 am

Quoting BinMonster (Reply 10):
Airlines offer transport to the public. Airlines can not ban a passengers.
Only a federal judge can do that. (no fly list)

You do not know what you are talking about.

Just like any other company in the USA, an airline may deny service to anyone for any reason...as long as it's not discrimination and covered by anti-discrimination laws.

Troublemakers and anyone deemed a security threat by the airline (not a judge as you claim) may be denied. Most of these individuals already know they are on the nofly list and don't even try.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:20 am

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 14):
What kinds of things will get you booted off an airline permanently?

Mostly ticket fraud was what I saw.

Selling your miles and such.

Then the check-in lock out got a lot of use from the no-fly list. However, EVERY no-fly we ever found was cleared with just a phone call to UA Security and a few key questions answered.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
binmonster
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:48 am

If you work at an airline check with your corporate security department and check if an "Airline can BAN a passenger"

The airline can refuse service, but to BAN a passenger is on a total different level.
Legally how, what, where, when, how can an airline BAN a passenger.
How long does a ban last, etc

Any legal experts out their? I think the term that applies to airlines that offer services to the public? is "at will carrier"

basally if you offer service to the general public you have to meet a very strict standard to BAN a passenger.

Now the urban legend part of the tread

Many agents have the mistaken impression they can BAN a passenger, and have even told a passenger they were banned.
I know of one story of a passenger called and asked if he was allowed to fly since it had been 5 years since he had been baned.

Only one passengers has been banned at the carrier at work for. He was a passenger that was involved with an onboard incident. He was touching a young child in-flight. The crew reported this individual, a law enforcement investigation reviled this person was a sex offender.

In may 23 years working in the industry I have denied boarding so many times I have lost count. Drunks are the best. Airline of AE about WN is the best examples of passengers being denied boarding.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:03 pm

Quoting Nycfuturepilot (Reply 15):
what happens though with popular names like Jim Smith? I'm sure you can't call security everytime a jim smith checks in.

Systems check not only name but passport, credit card, address and phone contact information to verify the identity.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Fri Apr 06, 2007 8:25 pm

For all those curious to know how airlines may or may not ban a passenger.....do something really stupid and find out for yourself.  Smile
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:55 pm

Brick and mortar stores and buildings can ban people so why can airlines?

I don't know this from personal experience but it stands to reason.

Additionally, travel on an airline is not a right. You purchase a ticket. As a seller the airline can reserve the right to refuse sale. Can reserve the right to refuse transport as well.

We had a passenger at UA who came to PHL with a large pig. She called it a "Service animal" The SD refused travel and refunded the ticket. The passenger was extremely upset, as you can imagine, but the airline backed the SD up. Especially after she went to US and got a ticket and the pig went wild as they deplaned in SEA.

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/US/10/27/when.pigs.fly.ap/index.html
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
deltadc9
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:00 pm

Ever see that commercial where the jetway is pulled away from the plane about 10 feet and the guy falls face first onto the tarmac? That works!
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
dallasnewark
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:17 am

It is not that difficult to forego the "banned" list of an airline.

E-mail. - How easy is it to get another email from the free email providers such as Microsoft, Yahoo etc

Adress - This is the credit card billing address, not the physical residence.. All you need to do is to open a P.O.Box and route that specific credit card there.

Phone Number - Get a different wireless number or a different one through Vonage. In order to save costs, airlines do not check the billing address/home phone combination to verify the identity of the customer.

SSN - not used by the airline for verification purposes (Impossible to change the SSN).
Driver's License Number - not used by the airline for verification purposes (very difficult to change the driver's license).

I'm having a hard time believing that the airline based no-fly lists can be implemented.
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dallasnewark
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:23 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 22):
Systems check not only name but passport, credit card, address and phone contact information to verify the identity

That is being done only on the International Flights (passport check)
See my previous post regarding address and phone and credit card (these are worthless checks)
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DavidT
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:23 am

Snoop Dogg has been banned for life from flying British Airways after his drunk entourage forced their way into a VIP lounge, after looting from duty free shops downstairs...

http://www.airportbusiness.com/artic.../article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=6282
 
dallasnewark
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:24 am

Quoting DavidT (Reply 28):
Snoop Dogg has been banned for life from flying British Airways after his drunk entourage forced their way into a VIP lounge, after looting from duty free shops downstairs...

He is an easily recognized person, I'm talking about your average Joe
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DavidT
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:27 am

Quoting Dallasnewark (Reply 29):
He is an easily recognized person, I'm talking about your average Joe

I was just adding it for general info, since we were talking about banning passengers  Smile

BA also banned 30 members of the entourage so they must have some way of distinguishing them.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:33 am

Quoting Dallasnewark (Reply 26):
SSN - not used by the airline for verification purposes (Impossible to change the SSN).
Driver's License Number - not used by the airline for verification purposes (very difficult to change the driver's license).

Lets just say for the sake of argument that Joe Blow got into an altercation on a flight and was kicked of and told never to return.

Let's also say that for whatever reason Joe decided he wants to continue to fly this airline that mistreated him so much they banned him. (This is a BIG "If" in my book)

The airline would have gathered all the relevant data SSN, Driver's licence number, birthday, Passport number stuff like that, from the police report.

Now Joe manages to buy a ticket, somehow using a false address or something. The Airline puts a lock on suspected check-ins. No Joe Blow is going to be allowed on until certain questions are asked.

So when Joe W. Blow comes to the airport to check in he can't until the agent takes his info, and calls corporate security. Joe W. Blow is not the guy. The Birthday is wrong. Joe W. Blow's check-in is released and he is on his way.

Joe Q. Blow, has I different passport number. Etc etc.

It isn't all that hard and the other customers caught in the net are only inconvenienced for about 2 minutes.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
deltadc9
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:36 am

Quoting Dallasnewark (Reply 26):
I'm having a hard time believing that the airline based no-fly lists can be implemented.

The guy who took a crap on a cart is not going to have an easy time flying for the rest of his life, also those who cause a distrubance that results in a diversion. If you think there is no list that is shared among certain carriers in the US, you think wrong.

Quoting Dallasnewark (Reply 26):
SSN - not used by the airline for verification purposes (Impossible to change the SSN).
Driver's License Number - not used by the airline for verification purposes (very difficult to change the driver's license).

How are you going to board a flight without ID that matches the ticket?
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
dallasnewark
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Sat Apr 07, 2007 1:10 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 32):
How are you going to board a flight without ID that matches the ticket?

Driver's License number is not checked by the airline, they only check if the name matches. They only scan the passports to get the info and just look at the drirver's license
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dallasnewark
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Sat Apr 07, 2007 1:24 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 31):
Lets just say for the sake of argument that Joe Blow got into an altercation on a flight and was kicked of and told never to return.

Let's also say that for whatever reason Joe decided he wants to continue to fly this airline that mistreated him so much they banned him. (This is a BIG "If" in my book)

The airline would have gathered all the relevant data SSN, Driver's licence number, birthday, Passport number stuff like that, from the police report.

Now Joe manages to buy a ticket, somehow using a false address or something. The Airline puts a lock on suspected check-ins. No Joe Blow is going to be allowed on until certain questions are asked.

So when Joe W. Blow comes to the airport to check in he can't until the agent takes his info, and calls corporate security. Joe W. Blow is not the guy. The Birthday is wrong. Joe W. Blow's check-in is released and he is on his way.

Joe Q. Blow, has I different passport number. Etc etc.

It isn't all that hard and the other customers caught in the net are only inconvenienced for about 2 minutes.

I never denied the existance of such no fly lists, I only questioned the legitimacy of implementation

In case of a customer with the common name, birthday seems to be irrelevant because you'll see lot's of customers with the same name. There are privacy issues with the SSN's, the customer may deny sharing his information and be within his right, since the airline is not a federal entity. Passport number is not static, if one is lost, the new one is assgined. I don't think it's as easy as it sounds to check the identity of the person
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Areopagus
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Sat Apr 07, 2007 1:43 am

I heard part of a radio interview with a man who was evidently a card counter. A casino banned him, and now he can't get into any casino in the US. He said the surveillance cameras feed computers running face recognition software.
 
lincoln
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Sat Apr 07, 2007 2:03 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 32):
Quoting Dallasnewark (Reply 26):
SSN - not used by the airline for verification purposes (Impossible to change the SSN).
Driver's License Number - not used by the airline for verification purposes (very difficult to change the driver's license).

How are you going to board a flight without ID that matches the ticket?

I would never accept a form of identification that had my SSN printed on it -- drivers license or otherwise. That's a crime waiting to happen. I've gone to battle and won with agencies over that issue.

DL# is easily changed by taking up residence in a different state -- or, presumably, finding one of the outlets that 16-year olds who want to buy beer patronize....

Lincoln
CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
 
MANmatt
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Sat Apr 07, 2007 2:15 am

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 14):
What kinds of things will get you booted off an airline permanently?

Hitting a gate agent over the head with a briefcase like one chinese passenger did when his flight got cancelled and hit a colleague!
 
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falstaff
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RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:34 pm

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 36):
I would never accept a form of identification that had my SSN printed on it -- drivers license or otherwise. That's a crime waiting to happen. I've gone to battle and won with agencies over that issue.

Missouri used to use your SSN for your DL number for years. You could ask for another number at no charge and it was not a big deal. Both Universities I went to used SSN for ID and they wouldn't change that number no matter what. Maybe if you got a lawyer or something, but I never bothered with that.

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 36):
or, presumably, finding one of the outlets that 16-year olds who want to buy beer patronize....

We never need ID at those fine places. We only needed luck in finding them  Wink

Quoting MANmatt (Reply 37):
Hitting a gate agent over the head with a briefcase

That probably got him more than getting on the no fly list. I bet he got some legal action too.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:51 am

RE: How Do Airlines Ban Passengers?

Sun Apr 08, 2007 11:34 am

Quoting Dallasnewark (Reply 26):
Driver's License Number - not used by the airline for verification purposes (very difficult to change the driver's license).

Driver's license numbers ARE used by some airlines to clear passengers who are tagged by Security. This in addition to Date of Birth, date and state of issue of the license and gender are all used in clearling a customer.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.

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